SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rin]

Cloud is honorable, underneath it all. The chances of him understanding how much Aerith meant to Zack and yet deciding to nevertheless pursue a relationship with her, never mind the harm such a relationship would deal to everyone else, is zero. It's narratively unthinkable, a character assassination that simply would not happen in the genre and certainly not in a labor of love like the Remake trilogy.

Such a good post as always, Hix. This part in particular brings me back to a tweet I made earlier this year about my personal feelings toward CA and why it doesn't work for me romantically. Cloud loves Zack. He loves him to the point of being unable to accept and face his death. He loves him so much that he would rather erase him and emulate him vs. live in the constant pain, grief, and suffering of remembering that loss. He can't take it. He vowed not to forget but he couldn't function while knowing the truth.

While he's in a better place (barely) now, remembering Zack in Nibelheim triggers something in him. On the date with Aerith at Gold Saucer, he won't even look her in the eye. He can't face her. He's carrying so much guilt and shame just knowing that Zack is dead and will never come home to her. And there's no doubt that he's uncomfortable with the idea that he reminds her so much of Zack; he basically starts squirming immediately when she says so and asks if Tifa has talked to her yet.

Just the idea of being on a date with his dead friends girlfriend is causing him emotional distress and it's always been interesting to me that certain fans believe he could just move on from that w/o a second thought. This is the same guy who gets crushed under his survivors guilt two years later and begins wondering if he ever deserved a happy ending at all, because why should he when he 1) forgot Zack and 2) "Let Aerith die"? Being in a relationship with Aerith would wreck him, honestly, and that's not something I want for him or for her.

And, on that same note, I have a hard time believing that Aerith's feelings for Cloud could continue to grow romantically once she learned the full story of what happened. I don't believe she would hold a grudge against Cloud for Zack's death because she's not that kind of person, but she's also not perfect and she would need to reconcile with the fact that Zack is gone because he was protecting Cloud. That's the type of man Zack was, so it's a fitting end for him but it wouldn't make it any less difficult for her to know about. So, every time she looks at Cloud she'll be forced to face that fact.

This is the same girl who couldn't talk to him after seeing Nibelheim because she was angry about her own life circumstances, so I think there would be a time where Aerith probably couldn't look at Cloud for a while yet. And then where exactly would they take it from there? Real Cloud would be apologetic and guilt-ridden about "playing SOLDIER" in the wake of Zack's death and Aerith would then be in a position of having to make Cloud feel better about all of that, which is pretty unfair to her. I don't see how their relationship could recover enough from all of that to enter a romantic relationship. Their friendship could bounce back, absolutely, but ... to be in a committed, loving relationship seems very unrealistic to me.

And that's not even taking into consideration that Cloud at his core is just Tifa Tifa Tifa Tifa Tifa Tifa.

 

[GamerSkull]

I think it's safe to say the likes of Nojima and Nomura have absolutely no input into what pictures go into the booklet of the soundtrack of the game, they got better things to spend their time on than that. That's why they have marketing and merchandise departments at SE.

Unless the Ultimania wants to prove me wrong in a few days or one of the devs come out and says "Yup, we chose to put this in the booklet for a reason and it's because of Clerith," in which case i'll gladly admit I was wrong, then If people are basing what's canon or "Clerith confirmed" over the pictures of the book then we truly are picking up breadcrumbs from the floor at this point.

Yeah. Good point.

Marketing aside, any actual evidence should come directly from events depicted in the game.

Because you can be 100% sure those are done by authorial intent.

Marketing comes from the studio itself.

 

[Ryushikaze]

People are way too focused on this non-optional/optional thing.

Would be funny if in a couple days the Ultimania’s like “so yeah, all the dates are canon.”

I mean, I've been acting as if they all are for over a decade now. No skin off my nose and it's funny.

I mean I've been calling it the dream date since the beginning because it happens in Aerith's dream world lol. I don't feel like it's new?

I disagree about it being a "dream world" but it happens when Cloud himself is asleep and fits the Aerith definition of a date so it still fits.

It's quite a popular opinion these days that the LTD is over. Since Rebirth, publications such as Polygon and Siliconera have weighed in to suggest the debate is no more, it's finished and any further discussion is merely performative.

Only took them a decade after my stellar reporting, but go on.

There's some truth in these contentions. From a purely rational stand point it's hard to argue that the devs have not nailed their colors to the mast in unambiguous terms. One girl gets a kiss, the other doesn't. One girl spends the game struggling to understand her feelings for Cloud, and he-her in return, the other enjoys a long standing and inherently romantic mutual attraction that never relents.

We've talked before about the significance of the CT kiss, or that moment when Aerith admits to Cloud that she still loves Zack, as being clear and obvious evidence that the LTD is no more, but today I want to talk about the moment in Rebirth in which Clerith dies;

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Yeah it's not the kiss, it's not even the confession, it's this. The moment Cloud starts remembering Zack - and that Zack loves Aerith - is the moment that CA ends.

What we see here is only the tip of the iceberg for what comes later, but I find it quite remarkable that the devs decided to start the process early. Indeed, it should come as no significance that in the game in which Aerith continues to struggle with her inability to make Cloud the Zack she's yearned for for 5 years, that Cloud himself should start to see a little bit behind the scenes.

He remembers they are friends. He remembers they fought together, albeit he still cannot quite shake off the SOLDIER fantasy. Most pivotally, he remembers that Zack loves Aerith. This fact is reinforced by the scene that Cloud remembers - vis, Zack talking endlessly about Aerith "whether Cloud wants to hear or not."

This is so significant precisely because it happens now, while Aerith is still alive. So often since 1997, CA has been presented as a relationship of "what could have been" but here, unambiguously, the devs have decided to close off that avenue of contemplation. There was minimal, if any, reciprocation by Cloud towards Aerith's advances before but after this scene it is hard to see his actions towards her as anything more than strictly, though lovingly, platonic. Every detail, large and small, even the Gold Saucer date is viewed by Cloud through the lens of his patchwork memories of Zack and how important Aerith is to him.

It's not, again this must be emphasized, a matter of "owning" or denial of one character's freedom to move on. The fact is that the narrative would not put this massive barricade in the way if Clerith was meant to be. Zack did not need to be remembered here. Indeed, Cloti didn't need it's kiss and Zerith it's confession either. One can argue these things are fanservice, but even if that holds weight (and I don't believe it does) then it doesn't change that this is the canon and a reflection of the direction the plot has taken and yet intends to take.

Cloud is honorable, underneath it all. The chances of him understanding how much Aerith meant to Zack and yet deciding to nevertheless pursue a relationship with her, never mind the harm such a relationship would deal to everyone else, is zero. It's narratively unthinkable, a character assassination that simply would not happen in the genre and certainly not in a labor of love like the Remake trilogy.

Now imagine further, when Cloud finally remembers that Zack saved his life and was killed as his reward. The DMW slowly breaking, Zack's final thought is Aerith. He tried to get back to Midgar, literally the lion's den, to be with her - and he would have succeeded were it not for saving Cloud. To suggest Cloud would spit on Zack's grave in such a manner is insulting. Aerith never knew how desperate Zack was to get back to her, but Cloud comes to know and even here, in Rebirth, learns just how much she meant to him.

At this stage they were friends, comrades in arms, brothers. That's already enough. Cloud is many things but not one to stab a friend in the back, no, not even if that friend is gone. He counts them all as precious, he holds them all deeply in his heart. Cleriths cannot handwave this scene away without fundamentally changing who Cloud is and making him out to be a monster. Mercifully that's not who the devs had in mind and we see that, though Cloud does humor Aerith to a degree - including on her Sector 5 recreated "dream date" - it ultimately never goes anywhere. This is not who Cloud is and Aerith's arc is her discovering it's not who she is either.

Agreed 100% Even if Cloud had any romantic feelings for Aerith prior, remembering that his best friend was in love with her and vice versa would kill them completely. Cloud was genuinely friends with Zack, they confided in each other. I 100% believe had the Nibelheim event not evented itself over everyone, Zack would have told Cloud to confess and reunite before everyone left. Cloud would not want to make either Zack or Aerith feel awkward and that's why his first thought that Aerith needs closure, so she can know Zack died loving her and didn't run after someone else like he thinks she believes.

 

[GamerSkull]

I mean, I've been acting as if they all are for over a decade now. No skin off my nose and it's funny..

Ah yeah, I’m pretty sure the old Ultimania also regards all dates as canon.

 

[Yoru]

So here again is my problem apparently the booklet for the soundtrack shows the CA scenes, why does marketing do this, wouldn't it be better to tell an honest story.

Maybe you're the one (the Clerith, not you specifically) at fault.

Devs tried to tell you. Cody (Cloud VA) tried to warn you.

A male and a female sharing moments together doesn't mean AUTOMATICALY Romance and so on. Marketing or devs have not to forbid themselves to use Cloud and Aerith imagery. It's an important pairing of this series. It's just not a romantic one. Period.

Cloud and Aerith love each other. ALWAYS HAVE. ALWAYS WILL. But it's not the love you want. That's all.

 

[GamerSkull]

Maybe you're the one (the Clerith, not you specifically) at fault.

Devs tried to tell you. Cody (Cloud VA) tried to warn you.

A male and a female sharing moments together doesn't mean AUTOMATICALY Romance and so on. Marketing or devs have not to forbid themselves to use Cloud and Aerith imagery. It's an important pairing of this series. It's just not a romantic one. Period.

Cloud and Aerith love each other. ALWAYS HAVE. ALWAYS WILL. But it's not the love you want. That's all.

Yup, Cloud and Aerith can still share a deep bond even if it’s not a romantic one. So that bond will still be depicted as it is important.

There’s an assumption here that CA imagery automatically indicates romance by some people.

 

[Yoru]

I'm just sick of the whining.

There are no baits or grand conspiracies. They don't have to forbid themselves from talking about and highlighting one of the couples in the game because a certain part of the public has chosen to make an headcanon their reason for living. Cloud loves Tifa romantically. Cloud loves Aerith platonically. One is not more important than the other. It's just different. That's the story they've chosen to tell. Let's deal with it now and stop seeing evil everywhere.

 

[Rin]

So here again is my problem apparently the booklet for the soundtrack shows the CA scenes, why does marketing do this, wouldn't it be better to tell an honest story.

Wait what CA scenes? The booklet is the buster sword w/ the Black materia inside of it and then on the inside Aerith is praying at the ToTA. Unless there's more I haven't seen.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Wait what CA scenes? The booklet is the buster sword w/ the Black materia inside of it and then on the inside Aerith is praying at the ToTA.

Do you have the booklet or screenshots of it? I always feel better when we can look at the actual materials in question.

 

[Rin]

Do you have the booklet or screenshots of it? I always feel better when we can look at the actual materials in question.

Mhm! Here's a link to a tweet of someone opening the package up. And here's a link to the full layout of the product you can buy.

The product description is:
Final Fantasy VII Rebirth will be getting two versions of its original soundtrack, available in a Special or Normal edition. The Special edition will come in a bonus Buster Sword case and include an additional Gold Saucer packaged CD. The Tower Records bonus will be a Chocobo memo pad, only while supplies last!

 

[GamerSkull]

Do you have the booklet or screenshots of it? I always feel better when we can look at the actual materials in question.

This is an image for the special edition. Not sure if there is a regular edition with different stuff.

 

[Yoru]

Ah yeah, I’m pretty sure the old Ultimania also regards all dates as canon.

Pretty sure it will be the same with Rebirth because : none of the dates contradict the others.

And that's the whole point. You can make the choice you want with the max affinity you want... You'll have to follow Cloud will. If he doesn't want to kiss someone, he won't.

 

[Eerie]

I disagree about it being a "dream world" but it happens when Cloud himself is asleep and fits the Aerith definition of a date so it still fits.

I actually don't think it's a dream world but it's how she ends up describing it to Cloud because the truth is that it's a bit more complicated than that and she doesn't have the time to explain it - although she does a pretty good job in a few words: it's her world, between the real world and the Lifestream. My personal guess is that it's her Promised Land - especially the church.

 

[Someonesbunny]

Do you have the booklet or screenshots of it? I always feel better when we can look at the actual materials in question.

This is what I've seen so far:

 

[Rin]

This is what I've seen so far:

Thank you!

Now that I've seen more, I'd say this is just consistent with the Rebirth marketing in general, as it should be because that's the point of a good marketing strategy.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I actually don't think it's a dream world but it's how she ends up describing it to Cloud because the truth is that it's a bit more complicated than that and she doesn't have the time to explain it - although she does a pretty good job in a few words: it's her world, between the real world and the Lifestream. My personal guess is that it's her Promised Land - especially the church.

I think it's even more complicated than even that and might have links to the very nature of cosmology in Final Fantasy and how there's supposed to be a crystal at the heart of every world/ reality and how everything is linked via the interdimensional rift. I think Sephiroth is attempting to pull an Ultimecia style move laterally.

This is what I've seen so far:

So what they mean by "Has CA Scenes" is "shows a picture of a scene with Cloud and Aerith"
I am curious what scenes are in the rest of the booklet.

 

[Stiggie]

Pretty sure it will be the same with Rebirth because : none of the dates contradict the others.

And that's the whole point. You can make the choice you want with the max affinity you want... You'll have to follow Cloud will. If he doesn't want to kiss someone, he won't.

Things is, the ultimanias are rarely a canonicity walkthrough, although people love using them as such. Usually its people going "THERE IS A SCREENSHOT OF THIS SCENE THEREFORE THAT SCENE HAPPENED, END OF DISCUSSION!!!!!" when really that's not how these things are intended I think.
I'd like some sort of clarification about how we should read the dates but my guess is that nothing will be mentioned that really touches on "what actually happened", more generic mechanical crap like "who shows up for the date depends on your affection rating", which essentially completely ignores what "actually" happened, or how we should interpret the effects of the events of the date on the feelings and continuation of the story.

And honestly, does it even matter?

Ultimately it comes down to whats been said before, with what we've seen concerning Cloud being aware of Zacks fondness for Aerith, and all the baggage that comes with Zacks sacrifice and attempts to get back to her, along with what has already been established concerning Tifa and Zack, I don't feel like there is any way to write a version of Clerith where it becomes impossible to do runs that do not make Cloud and Aerith seem absolutely godawful, and that's a problem.

Like I've said before, all runs need to make sense. Which means that whenever you write the continuation for the story you need to write it as fitting every potential previous playthrough. For Cloti, not a problem, in an Aerith playthrough we still get Cloud and Tifas growing romance as well as how much Aerith pines over Zack. Cloud and Aerith holding hands has zero impact on how we view them as people when Cloud "switches" to Tifa post Aeriths death, nor to Aeriths reunion with Zack post death.
We understand that it's fine to move on 5 years after someone dies. We understand that Aerith and Cloud was barely romantic, if at all, and that Tifa was already equally if not more romantically entangled with Cloud even before Aeriths death, we understand that Cloud can move on after Aeriths death, we understand that Aerith saw Zack in Cloud, we understand that Cloud was not himself.
Not a single route you currently play makes it so that "switching from Aerith to Tifa" makes the characters look bad. If anything the worst people look is when its still "Cloud and Aerith", since it still feels dirty to Tifa and Zack, but there are extenuating circumstances, so ok.


But what about a Tifa playthrough that (and this is even assuming player choice) switches to an Aerith playthrough in part 3? Now we would have a game where Cloud kisses Tifa, and then completely abandons her. And one where Cloud is constantly contrasted with Zack, with Zack looking like a perfect and loyal partner, while Cloud is dismissive of Aerith and kissing other women. And yet Aerith ignores that her best friend had kissed Cloud, and all the other baggage that we've mentioned about Zack sacrificing himself so that Cloud could reject the girl he kissed to be with the girl Zack was trying to get back to.

These people are awful, canonicity be damned. Someone could say "well, the Tifa kiss didn't really happen canonically so he's not really cheating" but screw that, if it happens in my playthrough, then it happens, that's the story I get to see, and that story is awful!

SE, if they have any sense, can't make a game where it's possible to play the characters that awfully, to have a story that twisted, and so they wont. Because ultimately the only reason it matters which date is canon is because we're trying to figure out "what happened" so that we can know what the backstory is that will determine what happens next, because that's what its all about, what happens next. But it doesn't matter what is canon for "what happens next", because "what happens next", has to fit all of them.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I mean wouldn't showing the CT dates also be good marketing strategy?

 

[Rin]

I mean wouldn't showing the CT dates also be good marketing strategy?

Sure but that's not what Rebirth marketing was. It was Aerith's farewell tour, so Aerith scenes are the ones that get highlighted. That doesn't really mean they're marketing CA romantically tbh, especially now that the fandom has seen these scenes play out. It's not like these photos can bait or trick anyone.

 

[Stiggie]

I mean wouldn't showing the CT dates also be good marketing strategy?

Not really, this is Aeriths game, it's all about her final journey, which in turn is all about the bonds she's made along the way, hence NPTK being the theme song.

but yeah, calling it "marketing" may give the wrong impression, because it's not like the people who buy these items need to be persuaded to buy the game, if someone buy this, then they've already got the game.

What it is supposed to be is a coherent package, a single experience. And it makes sense to put the focal point of that experience around what is also the focal point of the second game, which is Aeriths death.

Now personally I hate this, because I absolutely LOATHE how Aeriths death has been twisted and perverted into some sick spectacle these days. But I do get what they're going with. This is the choice they've made, so they should be consistent.

 

[Yoru]

These people are awful, canonicity be damned. Someone could say "well, the Tifa kiss didn't really happen canonically so he's not really cheating" but screw that, if it happens in my playthrough, then it happens, that's the story I get to see, and that story is awful!

SE, if they have any sense, can't make a game where it's possible to play the characters that awfully, to have a story that twisted, and so they wont. Because ultimately the only reason it matters which date is canon is because we're trying to figure out "what happened" so that we can know what the backstory is that will determine what happens next, because that's what its all about, what happens next. But it doesn't matter what is canon for "what happens next", because "what happens next", has to fit all of them.

That's why the kiss is a big deal. CA can argue all they want, the moment they decide to put it in the game is the moment they killed the classic LTD in their developpement cycle.

Like we said again and again, whatever the date you chose to see (and dev are asking people to view them all) the game is crafted in such a way that they are all canon.

 

[Hellenic]

Mhm! Here's a link to a tweet of someone opening the package up. And here's a link to the full layout of the product you can buy.

The product description is:
Final Fantasy VII Rebirth will be getting two versions of its original soundtrack, available in a Special or Normal edition. The Special edition will come in a bonus Buster Sword case and include an additional Gold Saucer packaged CD. The Tower Records bonus will be a Chocobo memo pad, only while supplies last!

Wait that's it? What's CA here exactly?

 

[GamerSkull]

I agree with @Stiggie. Part 3 needs to have narrative cohesion with Part 2, and so the devs have to make it knowing many players got a variable scene at Gold Saucer.

This is why one girl got a kiss and the other didn’t. Because otherwise, they’d have to account for both in Part 3 and as this is a set story, they can’t have that branching path.

@Hellenic it’s a picture of their date. But tbh, the booklet is just screenshots of the game and shows other screens as well. That scene does occur in the game… so it’s in the marketing.

 

[Hellenic]

This is what I've seen so far:

Oh they do have a shot of the CA date there. Fair enough i guess.

 

[Hellenic]

I mean wouldn't showing the CT dates also be good marketing strategy?

We'll probably get more of that for the third game while this one focused on Aerith.