SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GamerSkull]

Just woke up to twitter in shambles again. GOD I should take this as a sign to delete it.

Apparently, many extremists jp CA are demanding and uploading hashtag to delete tifa's UTH or add an optional scene with aerith. Nothing new here but it got me wandering, as far as i know ff7 community is kinda toxic so has it ever been a similar situation that where the developers "backpedal" (heck i dnt even if i spell it correctly) in order to fulfil fan's wishes, ik it has been discussed that no need to worry about lifestream scene, but the doubt has defeated me again about UTH

I don’t think it’s anything to worry about.

The devs know that people that do this is a minority. Doubt it will affect any decisions they make in Part 3.

By the way, I haven’t seen these so I don’t know but…. Tweeting about deleting scenes so your ship can have it instead is kinda proof that it’s over.

 

[Eerie]

Just woke up to twitter in shambles again. GOD I should take this as a sign to delete it.

Apparently, many extremists jp CA are demanding and uploading hashtag to delete tifa's UTH or add an optional scene with aerith. Nothing new here but it got me wandering, as far as i know ff7 community is kinda toxic so has it ever been a similar situation that where the developers "backpedal" (heck i dnt even if i spell it correctly) in order to fulfil fan's wishes, ik it has been discussed that no need to worry about lifestream scene, but the doubt has defeated me again about UTH

Trust, they're gonna double down lol.

 

[abzy1200]

Our brain will trick us to see whatever we believe.
IMO Cloud and Aerith will never be soulmates in any context because Aerith has never met the real cloud without the soilder persona.
She doesn’t know him as him. She only knows a fake version of Cloud

If you want to count her interactions with him in Advent Children, then technically she has, I get what you're saying though and I agree.

You can't really know someone from only a couple brief exchanges.

Cait's compatibility prediction specifically.

Plus, wasn't Cait Sith lying about his fortunes just to get closer to the group? I know it's supposed to be a literary tactic but still.

I feel like the intention was that Tifa and Cloud were soulmates and meant to be

Honestly, I feel like I could make a more compelling argument for Cloud and Tifa being "soulmates" from the lifestream sequence alone, are there any other examples of Cloud (forgive me if I get this wrong) giving someone access to his concious, which is occupied solely of memories and feelings for that person, and going over those memories and feelings with them is the only way to restore his true self?

Apparently, many extremists jp CA are demanding and uploading hashtag to delete tifa's UTH or add an optional scene with aerith. Nothing new here but it got me wandering, as far as i know ff7 community is kinda toxic so has it ever been a similar situation that where the developers "backpedal" (heck i dnt even if i spell it correctly) in order to fulfil fan's wishes, ik it has been discussed that no need to worry about lifestream scene, but the doubt has defeated me again about UTH

This kind of proves how Cleriths can't even get their own arguments straight. If the Highwind scene is so "unimportant", "platonic", or "optional" why do they resent it so much? Why do they want and beg and plead for it to be removed all the time?

Trust, they're gonna double down lol.

I'm very curious about how they are going to execute it. Definitely one of my most anticipated scenes for part 3 because of it. I wonder if they'll kiss and then a fade to black? maybe them getting slightly handsy?

 

[GamerSkull]

Advent Children does showcase Cloud’s bond with Aerith. Because it’s strong. People just assume it implies a romantic nature, which is the part that is interpretive.

Let’s not forget, Cloud also calls her Mother in this movie. And she walks off with Zack at the end with his sword memorialized in her church. A sword that is reinforced to be a representation of him because Cloud uses it as his grave marker earlier.

 

[abzy1200]

And she walks off with Zack at the end with his sword memorialized in her church. A sword that is reinforced to be a representation of him because Cloud uses it as his grave marker earlier.

Cloud even put it in the church himself, I'm assuming. He shipped Zerith all along!

 

[nars305]

Honestly, I feel like I could make a more compelling argument for Cloud and Tifa being "soulmates" from the lifestream sequence alone, are there any other examples of Cloud (forgive me if I get this wrong) giving someone access to his concious, which is occupied solely of memories and feelings for that person, and going over those memories and feelings with them is the only way to restore his true self?

I mean you can, and this is why I personally was surprised this was a debate spanning over two decades. I don’t know how Tifa’s actions and their past together can be overlooked.

If I remember right from when I watched the OG, isn’t it because Tifa finds him at train station that he becomes less of a mess? If I remember right he’s just kind of on the floor but then comes to when he realizes it’s Tifa in front of him.

And the promise my goodness. It’s so poetic that he leaves to become a solider, promises he’ll protect her when he does, comes back dejected and feeling like a loser, but defeats Sephiroth and was there for her when he felt unworthy to even be seen by her.

 

[Eerie]

I'm very curious about how they are going to execute it. Definitely one of my most anticipated scenes for part 3 because of it. I wonder if they'll kiss and then a fade to black? maybe them getting slightly handsy?

Honestly I don't know lol, we'll certainly get a kiss, a pan out to the stars and the Highwind. I mean at most it'll be T rating lol so nothing that is too much - if we're lucky we'll get them under a blanket when it's dawn with them snuggling and some clothes on the ground xD I can certainly see Tifa's iconic line making a come back since SE loves it that much too.

 

[liuliuliu]

Maybe Aerith does have personality that are similar to cloud’s mom. Might see more in Pt3 when Cloud get all his memories back.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Apparently, many extremists jp CA are demanding and uploading hashtag to delete tifa's UTH or add an optional scene with aerith. Nothing new here but it got me wandering, as far as i know ff7 community is kinda toxic so has it ever been a similar situation that where the developers "backpedal" (heck i dnt even if i spell it correctly) in order to fulfil fan's wishes, ik it has been discussed that no need to worry about lifestream scene, but the doubt has defeated me again about UTH

Ok, for a moment let’s entertain the possibility that a significant number of fans use this hashtag, or send out enough tweets tagging Square Enix and the devs with their demands for there to be an optional UTH scene for Aerith, that it gives them pause, and then consider that yes, maybe we do need to backpedal and fulfil these fan’s wishes.

And include said scene with Aerith under the Highwind.

Not only would this be actual “fanservice”, literally throwing Cleriths a bone (extreme ones mind, because I can’t see anyone else, CAs or otherwise, taking the time out of their day to make threats to boycott Part 3 or send a list of demands to Square Enix HQ, as if threatening to boycott a video game has ever really had that significant an amount of tangible impact) but it wouldn’t change anything.

Do we seriously think that a scene with Aerith under the Highwind is going to be the time and place the developers and writers decide (under duress) to include a love confession, and/or kiss?

Make it the Clerith moment they’re all begging the developers to include?

It’s far more likely (in the hypothetical scenario where the developers actually did bow to this type of pressure, from a very minor subset of the fandom) that such a scene wouldn’t be the scene that they would want.

Why?

Rebirth.

It already definitively asked, and answered, the question of Cloud and Aerith as a romantic pairing.

It also asked and answered that same question for Cloud and Tifa. And only one of the two heroines is still going to be an active, and alive, member of the party going forward, who is arguably as famous and iconic as she is, for all of her scenes from the original that are to come in Part 3.

The other? If we were to have a 1:1 of the original’s content for Part 3, then Aerith would get a mention in a few scenes, but only make an actual appearance right at the end.

Aerith will 100% make more appearances in Part 3. And it won’t be for Cloud and Cloud alone.

Zack still being an active player in the ongoing story guarantees that.

I could go on but if I do it becomes more me presenting an argument for the people who are making these hashtags, threats, and demands in the first place, and they wouldn’t care to see it or take the time to even try and understand the point I’m trying to get across, but to you, if you still have doubt, honestly?

Don’t.

Take what they are doing as the sign that it is. They know they’ve lost. They wouldn’t be asking for Aerith to get Tifa’s big scene otherwise.

Remember as well this is the same Tifa that, tomorrow in all likelihood, they’ll be saying isn’t important, isn’t even a main character, isn’t the heroine of the story, doesn’t matter to Cloud etc.

You should never give room for doubt, especially where it concerns a story that as @Eerie pointed out, has exhibited repeated signs of the developers and writers absolutely doubling down on.

From the very beginning of the Remake project, things have been telegraphed very clearly. Everything since has just furthered this along.

And at the end of the day, if they decided not to give Cloud and Aerith an overtly explicit romantic moment in the Gold Saucer date (especially not when you have Tifa’s as a point of comparison) nor their final date in Sector 5, they certainly won’t do this for any scene in Part 3. Not when the story will have moved so firmly into territory where Cloud and Tifa’s feelings for each other are both obvious and realised, but Zack and Aerith’s too.

Rebirth was the game to do this in, to give Cloud and Aerith that reciprocal romantic moment, if they were ever going to entertain this possibility.

 

[cgnVirtue]

Haha I ship Inuyasha with Kikkyo myself. Funny as they're two characters of basically the same person and same coin... But I feel exactly the same way. And yes I have a rule I give myself with media "It's the creators' story, not mine" It's very simple. If something the creator does doesn't appeal to me I either move on or try to see what they want to show me instead and appreciate that as is. If don't like that then fanfiction is where I can find what I want.

Unfortunately sometimes work a gets bigger than the creators which makes it hard to not feel attachment and not feel slighted when things don't go as we expect. It's hard in a way I guess not to feel like characters or a story belongs to us.

But I wish people understood that doesn't make the creator wrong it's just their vision is different and they have every right to having their vision as they see fit because it's theirs. It's just about respecting that boundary that no matter how much we love a work it doesn't mean we dictate how it should go. And that's basically what canon is about how the work goes, not if it's better or worse or right or wrong. Just an answer to what did the creator want for their own work.

It's easy to forget that which is why see toxicity and character bashing and basically imposing what fans think the creator should want. When that isn't possible nor our choice to make.

I can’t quote all of your posts regarding this because my post would be so long lol. But I like your view on shipping and I think it’s really healthy. It seems like work becoming bigger than the author is more common as time goes on, and I think it becomes overwhelming to try and rein it in for the creators. That’s why I think it’s brave of SE to try to do so after all these years. I wasn’t here for the ambiguity, so I can’t even imagine what it was like.

But I am glad that they’re trying to correct course now and express their true vision on the narrative and canon and relationships. I’ve mentioned this before but the LTD really hampers how I think people view the game and narrative. It’s not a dating sim, there’s an amazing story actually there. By removing the LTD in general, I think it invites more people to truly discuss the narrative in a productive way. For example, by accepting CT as canon, we can truly look at CA and how tragic it is. Not only that, but how it services both characters and why it makes sense that they were drawn to each other in the first place, and ultimately why it didn’t work out. Not why it should, not why it will, but why it didn’t. I think that might have been at least part of the point Cody Christian was trying to make too, because by searching for “ship legitimizing” material we can miss out on character motivations and what gives them depth.

If it’s not obvious, I’m CT lol. But that doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate a lot about CA. For example, the parallels/similarities between Cloud and Aerith aren’t lost on me. Both of them lost their moms to Shinra. Zack, Cloud’s best friend and Aerith’s first boyfriend, died before getting back to Aerith by protecting Cloud. And then when they meet, Cloud can play hero and Aerith can play girlfriend (I’m greatly oversimplifying). While I personally don’t agree with how they deal with their traumas, given both of their experiences, I can’t exactly blame them for wanting to pretend, even for a little while. Life can be cruel, and if we need to pretend to get through the night sometimes then so be it. In a way they had exactly what each other needed at the time, and I think that’s part of what makes their relationship meaningful. They even come to really care for each other. I can also acknowledge that in the end, they can’t pretend forever. And that’s what makes their relationship tragic. It was doomed not to work because of what they really want/need. But it’s still an important relationship that both characters had nonetheless.

I guess my point is that even though you’re CA and I’m CT, because we both acknowledge canon, we’re not just looking through shipping goggles and can engage in productive conversation. And the sooner people just accept that the LTD is over the sooner we can start seriously discussing narratives, characters, and their relationships in greater detail.

 

[abzy1200]

If I remember right from when I watched the OG, isn’t it because Tifa finds him at train station that he becomes less of a mess? If I remember right he’s just kind of on the floor but then comes to when he realizes it’s Tifa in front of him.

I've always thought the same. Like, if Tifa didn't find him he would be marching to the Northern Crater with the black robed men. I mean, he did anyway and it was intentionally ironic in that way, but he wouldn't have had so much autonomy doing it.

if we're lucky we'll get them under a blanket when it's dawn with them snuggling and some clothes on the ground xD I can certainly see Tifa's iconic line making a come back since SE loves it that much too.

Kitase is pulling his hair out knowing he probably has to accept making it more explicit this time.

Take what they are doing as the sign that it is. They know they’ve lost. They wouldn’t be asking for Aerith to get Tifa’s big scene otherwise.

Remember as well this is the same Tifa that, tomorrow in all likelihood, they’ll be saying isn’t important, isn’t even a main character, isn’t the heroine of the story, doesn’t matter to Cloud etc.

Nobody hates Final Fantasy 7 and it's characters more than Cleriths

 

[Stiggie]

They removed this in Rebirth didn't they? Just more evidence as to where this story is going.

They kept the "losing what you cherish most" prediction though, never understood that one.

 

[GamerSkull]

They kept the "losing what you cherish most" prediction though, never understood that one.

That may be in reference to Aerith, yeah.

But tbh I think it could actually means multiple things. In his pursuit of Sephiroth, he loses other things too… like his identity before it’s restored, etc.

But also, Cloud can cherish Aerith without being in love with her also.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Quote cut off for some reason


Yeah I know. I am super into all that too myself. It's why I love FF7's lore so much.
I just said it was similar to me. Not exactly direct references. But on a fun note there actually are homages to Evangelion in FF7. One scene that looks very much like references the spear of longinus intentionally,

Which one are you thinking of?

the weapons,

The weapons are all actually references to mobile suits and armors from Gundams (Ludicrously so. Emerald is the Neue Ziel, Ruby is basically a Hygogg, Diamond is basically just a Quebely, etc.), not angels from Eva.

and the Dplug suit reference you get in Gold Saucer is an homage which tells me the devs were at least fans. And I love that.

Are you referring to the diving suit in the Gold Saucer museum?

It was one of the biggest influences of other media around back then. It had one of the most famous love triangles back then which is also an illusiory triangle. Which was ended in a very interesting way in Rebuild.

I don't doubt it would have had an influence, but FF7 was in development even before it aired.

And other games like Xenogears developed alongside of it with several ideas from Xenogears draft making it into FF7 and vise versa ...and the Xeno series in general and even modern games like Honkai Impact today still have references to it. All games I love. It was just a phenomenon of epic proportions in terms of media influence.

I don't think that means FF7 was a copy of it or anything or that the LS scene copied it but there are as I said homages in the game. It was just one of the influences around that time in terms of sheer popularity and media influence and yeah as you said Gnostic and JudoChristrianity mysticism was huge back then. And it was stuff I was into. And still am I've written huge essays about Gnosticism as well as Jungian psychology in FF7. So I think that's great. I just have seen similar over the years so the identity stuff doesn't grab me like someone who might see a scene like that for the first time.

I mean in general it sounds like you much prefer a will they/ won't they style romance to a slow burn inevitable one which is entirely fair.

Still my jam lorewise though.

Edit: Clarification and elaboration added and fixed the quote (I will stop talking before I jump into a series of tangent essays of 5000 words about Gnosticism and Jungian themes but basically in context to my answer my interest in that scene is more about the Jungian and Gnostic themes in general than the romance)

I mean if you WANT to do that, you asbolutely can. Feel free to start a new topic on it. I made one about the playable characters and Super Sentai after all.

 

[abzy1200]

They kept the "losing what you cherish most" prediction though, never understood that one.

This was regards to him losing his identity, no?

Plus, it's a bit objectifying for Aerith if it is referring to her, as the fortune says "what" and not "who".

 

[Ryushikaze]

They kept the "losing what you cherish most" prediction though, never understood that one.

Himself. His autonomy. His belief that he was in SOLDIER. The reading is deliberately vague and ominous.

 

[Yoru]

They kept the "losing what you cherish most" prediction though, never understood that one.

What is Cloud searching for ? Sephiroth.

Where is the only and true Sephiroth ? At the Northern Crater.

What is Cloud losing at this moment ? His Ego. Himself. The thing he cherished the most. His fake persona that makes him look cool. The lie of being the Soldier Tifa always wanted him to be (spoiler, she doesn't give a damn, she hates SOLDIER)

 

[nars305]

I think it can mean many things, but even Cloud himself doesn’t understand it. Also, all the predictions seemed to reference the journey, like even the black materia seems to be *referenced in lucky color black.

It seems to be another case of tiny little things being used as evidence of romance, when it doesn’t necessarily have to be romanticized. It can mean seek Sephiroth and lose what you cherish most, that can just be his friendships for all we know.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Which one are you thinking of?


The weapons are all actually references to mobile suits and armors from Gundams (Ludicrously so. Emerald is the Neue Ziel, Ruby is basically a Hygogg, Diamond is basically just a Quebely, etc.), not angels from Eva.


Are you referring to the diving suit in the Gold Saucer museum?


I don't doubt it would have had an influence, but FF7 was in development even before it aired.


I mean in general it sounds like you much prefer a will they/ won't they style romance to a slow burn inevitable one which is entirely fair.

I mean if you WANT to do that, you asbolutely can. Feel free to start a new topic on it. I made one about the playable characters and Super Sentai after all.

I'm gonna have to reference an old Reddit post for this because I honestly can't remember it's been that long since I've discussed it. There is prize called D type equipment in the museum. Is that the diving suit? It's considered to be a reference to the Unit 2 suit.

The weapons I can see them as gundams too. Mechs in general were huge back then.

Source:

https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/comments/1i23wl
https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/comments/1i23wl/_/cb0saim
Here is the only thread I can still find about it. But to be clear I think they're just little homages for fun in a time where the series was popular. I definitely don't think it ties in any big or any direct way to the story besides "Jungian Psychology and JudoChristrian Mysticism Is Super Cool" and beyond that the devs are nerds like me lol. Nomura definitely is especially when we see the lore he likes to put in KingdomHearts. Gnosticism is just super cool in Japan lol.

And lol not sure if I should be encouraged on another 5000 thousand words thesis proposal about one of my favorite lore topics but I will consider it lol!

And yes will they won't they is definitely my jam romance wise as well as "impossible against the odds type of love" so like a villain with the heroine (Aeriseph) etc.

 

[Hellenic]

I watch anime a lot as well but if there is one thing that I hate about anime it's that the childhood friend seemingly never wins. And if there is one thing that I CANNOT stand it's watching a girl in anime be in love and be genuinely precious and amazing and doing her best right from the start, only to invariably lose the man she loves to some random woman who just showed up one day

To be fair, often in these childhood friend and new girl in town love triangle setups, the childhood friend almost always is too afraid to change the status quo, because they are afraid of it potentially changing their relationship for the worse. The guy character in turn almost never actually felt any romantic feelings towards the childhood friend and the childhood friend had years to change that, but they never did. So then comes in the new girl who swoops the guys feet under and it's basically already over.

I've seen them setup like this so often that it's immediately easy to tell what the outcome is, and as much as i tend to enjoy the childhood friends in these more too like you do, it's just hopeless from the get go.

There are ofc some stories where the MC ends up realizing that the childhood friend was there to support them all along and do reciprocate the feelings, but the first scenario is where it usually goes.

 

[Yoru]

Childhood friends and blue haired girl guys.

Death combo in manga romcom.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@LunarTarotGirl: The summon that redditor is referencing is Odin, and said summon references Norse myth with his spear. Said spear, Gungnir, was forged in the same competition that saw Thor's hammer Mjolnir created, and is said to never miss any target its thrown at. The clouds parting imagery is similar to the Spear of Longinus from Eva, though I should say similar imagery is kinda everywhere

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@LunarTarotGirl: The summon that redditor is referencing is Odin, and said summon references Norse myth with his spear. Said spear, Gungnir, was forged in the same competition that saw Thor's hammer Mjolnir created, and is said to never miss any target its thrown at. The clouds parting imagery is similar to the Spear of Longinus from Eva, though I should say similar imagery is kinda everywhere

So we can say also the spear of longinus might also be a reference to legends of Odin too since Gnostic mysticism especially the one shown in Evangelion is a collection of religious beliefs around the world more than being just Judeo-Christian references. So people working on Evangelion could have come across such descriptions and thought Odin is cool let's do that. And oh no I'm doing it lol....so yeah.

But also I think the devs were just nerds. They worked on FF7 for a long time so things they liked probably made it in for fun when they were developing for long hours. But I can definitely see it as a homage. For context also the anime aired in 1997 but the manga came out in 1994 so it's possible the devs read it in their free time and like how we nowadays put easter eggs in things from what's popular did the same.

What's funny too is the Evangelion community has discussions about Rebuild and Remake. Two nostalgic series remade with original lore but changed scenes so it's entirely possible they just like discussing similarities while the devs just thought it was funny.

 

[Hellenic]

she couldn't cry for Aerith since after they defeated Sephiroth

Doesn't this statement mean after the game ends? She definitely cried even in the OG when Aerith died if you had her in your party, so it couldn't be that. I assume it's just that she never cried over Aerith again past that point more so.

 

[nars305]

They kept the "losing what you cherish most" prediction though, never understood that one.

I had to circle back to this because I went back to rewatch the predictions. I didn’t know that last line is really used as a point that Cloud loves Aerith. The comments on the video were interesting.