SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yoru]

Btw i don't use neither Spotify nor apple music, so is there any place where i can or download the official ost, or has the official ost been updated in youtube ?

For now it's not available on streaming. You have to buy it (Itunes store/Amazon Music etc.)

 

[Hellenic]

I'm listening Rebirth OST and just found out they put Tifa's date theme first on the list.

Cloti confirmed CANON date. Rest is optional. Tifa won. End of the story.

(doesn't mean shit, just wanted to have fun and show how we can thorn the narrative when one want to make a point.)

View attachment 15470

Kinda like how Tifas play trophy is listed first before Aerith and Yuffie in the Johnny stuff .

 

[Maidenofwar]

I would still rather talk to people here rather than talk to myself since this is the active part of the forums apart from lore thread

 

[Hellenic]

For now it's not available on streaming. You have to buy it (Itunes store/Amazon Music etc.)

I just checked it on Itunes and i only found a version that has 175 songs, surely that's not all of it right?

 

[Yoru]

I just checked it on Itunes and i only found a version that has 175 songs, surely that's not all of it right?

Sadly it's this one. Digital version is the 7-Disc édition.

No LS Tifa theme....

 

[Hellenic]

Sadly it's this one. Digital version is the 7-Disc édition.

No LS Tifa theme....

Well fuck me then i guess. I really don't wanna buy the physical to get all songs....

 

[Stiggie]

I would still rather talk to people here rather than talk to myself since this is the active part of the forums apart from lore thread

Enjoy it while it lasts I'd say. We'll have another good hoorah when the ultimania comes out and after that my guess is well go radio silent again for the next 3 years or so XD
We've already gone back to repeating stuff so.

 

[Yoru]

Well fuck me then i guess. I really don't wanna buy the physical to get all songs....

You should wait to see what version is hitting the streaming plateforms.

If it's the same well.... I'm sure someone will rip CD8

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Again, she is a love interest in OG. She is designed to be one.

You can fall for her. The game even wants it (dialogue choice being : 1-Be nice / 2- Be a total dick)

Because they designed their CD1 as a giant Shock Effect.

tl;dr : Yeah Square Soft didn't lie. Cloud loves Aerith. But Square Soft doesn't exist anymore because it has been 27 years. And things changed during this long period of time. It is time some people accept the truth.

Yeah while CA was not confirmed back then I think there is this idea that things in Square haven't changed over the years when it absolutely has. In OG Aerith WAS presented as a love interest option to the player. Whether a red herring or not you could romance her or choose not to. Nothing in the game told you not to, no dev interview encouraged you not to so neither did the marketting back then. This makes sense to the vision they had of their game. A game which back then they probably didn't think they were going to ever remake. The Remake project was made for fans. And back then they didn't even know how long they were going to keep up the franchise.

Kitase has talked about how bonds in OG were ambiguous, and how it was something new in the gameplay to have a protagonist waver between two girls. People dismiss him but I think it's just how the original game was viewed as it was created. I think they back then didn't mind if people played thinking either Aerith or Tifa was the love interest. It wasn't really their focus. Especially with Aerith at the time being a face of the story along with the protagonist her death being so iconic it made sense marketting wise to just let people think that. Why piss off your audience and tell them yeah the person you think is the love interest with the iconic death scene that's not real? Especially when Nomura was already getting flack for "killing her". And Nomura famously didn't care about the topic of romance .

His focus however did seem to be on clearing misconceptions about his feelings toward Aerith thanks to a rumour spread it was his idea to kill her when it was a misunderstanding in a magazine interview. This is probably why he said what he said about her in KingdomHearts when he included her that the company has a great love for Aerith and he wanted to show that. He wasn't thinking romance but if the player thought so he famously let them think whatever.

However over time I do think the vision shifted to wanting to be clearer with the narrative, Nojima wanted to introduce Zack and show the development of Cloud and Tifa so then it became very important to them to show these bonds as Cloud and Tifa as a couple and Zack and Aerith as the other. Accordingly the marketting shifted towards that too. It now became important to establish endgame in a clear way especially when again Nomura got flack for the way it seems Cloud left Tifa behind with two kids. Can't have your audience pissed thinking the protagonist is a jerk so of course now marketting would be more shifted towards showcasing Cloud and Tifa as together and Cloud as not a jerk.

Then we get to Remake by this point the devs especially Nomura are aware of shipwars they're aware about the horrible takes on their beloved characters. Again from a marketting standpoint clearing up the misconceptions is just extremely important and now they have HD to make it clear. So the devs chose a lane and that was show CT as unambiguously as possible. Release novels that promote Tifa as the love interest because unlike in OG they do mind if you see her as that or not. And that's why Remake is how it is too. But Rebirth is tricky because they don't want to confuse anyone but it's Aerith's swan song. They can't not promote her. They have to do it especially if she dies so we see a lot of her too in marketting material.

Marketting is not about the story but about the impression it gives and I think in the beginning in OG SquareSoft didn't mind the interpretations of their game. They thrived in the ambiguity and they showcased Aerith because her iconic death made her iconic so letting people think she is endgame didn't hurt them.

Over time though it was more important to showcase Tifa and then when they finally decided to let Zack out of the basement to showcase him and Aerith and their relationship.

So we have to take in mind that time has passed and the vision and way the devs viewed things naturally also evolved over time to leave ambiguity behind while still creating mystery an intrigue. Especially around Aerith's death which is why even though Aerith still gets her spotlight and they don't stop you from trying to romance her or say outright not to see her that way though they don't mind downplaying the romance aspect and taking scenes from OG away to do so. And we do see the game flesh out their endgame couples more clearly. So that's their focus while it wasn't in OG.

I don't know just my thoughts.

I don't think canon has changed per say but I think in 1997 Square didn't care what people thought was canon thus it was more ambiguous then than now. And now they do enough to add stuff to their 27 year old narrative that shows their intended love interests a lot early on. Basically that they chose a lane and put a magnifying glass and neon lights around it.

Edit: Expanded on Nomura's words on LTD. And Aerith and how she was viewed as well as pointed out yeah they downplayed the romance framing of CA from OG by removing several scenes. So I do think they did pick a lane.

 

[Yoru]

Enjoy it while it lasts I'd say. We'll have another good hoorah when the ultimania comes out and after that my guess is well go radio silent again for the next 3 years or so XD
We've already gone back to repeating stuff so.

Well... we'll be back for the teaser during the next anniversary and again for the teaser/trailer during a big summer show.

Yeah while CA was not confirmed back then I think there is this idea that things in Square haven't changed over the years when it absolutely has. In OG Aerith WAS presented as a love interest option to the player. Whether a red herring or not you could romance her or choose not to. Nothing in the game told you not to, no dev interview encouraged you not to so neither did the marketting back then. This makes sense to the vision they had of their game. A game which back then they probably didn't think they were going to ever remake. The Remake project was made for fans. And back then they didn't even know how long they were going to keep up the franchise.

Kitase has talked about how bonds in OG were ambiguous, and how it was something new in the gameplay to have a protagonist waver between two girls. People dismiss him but I think it's just how the original game was viewed as it was created. I think they back then didn't mind if people played thinking either Aerith or Tifa was the love interest. It wasn't really their focus. Especially with Aerith at the time being a face of the story along with the protagonist her death being so iconic it made sense marketting wise to just let people think that. Why piss off your audience and tell them yeah the person you think is the love interest with the iconic death scene that's not real? Especially when Nomura was already getting flack for "killing her". And Nomura famously didn't care about the topic of romance . His focus however did seem to be on clearing misconceptions about his feelings toward Aerith thanks to a rumour spread it was his idea to kill her when it was a misunderstanding in a magazine interview.

However over time I do think the vision shifted to wanting to be clearer with the narrative, Nojima wanted to introduce Zack and show the development of Cloud and Tifa so then it became very important to them to show these bonds as Cloud and Tifa as a couple and Zack and Aerith as the other. Accordingly the marketting shifted towards that too. It now became important to establish endgame in a clear way especially when again Nomura got flack for the way it seems Cloud left Tifa behind with two kids. Can't have your audience pissed thinking the protagonist is a jerk so of course now marketting would be more shifted towards showcasing Cloud and Tifa as together and Cloud as not a jerk.

Then we get to Remake by this point the devs especially Nomura are aware of shipwars they're aware about the horrible takes on their beloved characters. Again from a marketting standpoint clearing up the misconceptions is just extremely important and now they have HD to make it clear. So the devs chose a lane and that was show CT as unambiguously as possible. Release novels that promote Tifa as the love interest because unlike in OG they do mind if you see her as that or not. And that's why Remake is how it is too. But Rebirth is tricky because they don't want to confuse anyone but it's Aerith's swan song. They can't not promote her. They have to do it especially if she dies so we see a lot of her too in marketting material.

Marketting is not about the story but about the impression it gives and I think in the beginning in OG SquareSoft didn't mind the interpretations of their game. They thrived in the ambiguity and they showcased Aerith because her iconic death made her iconic so letting people think she is endgame didn't hurt them.

Over time though it was more important to showcase Tifa and then when they finally decided to let Zack out of the basement to showcase him and Aerith and their relationship.

So we have to take in mind that time has passed and the vision and way the devs viewed things naturally also evolved over time to leave ambiguity behind while still creating mystery an intrigue. Especially around Aerith's death which is why even though Aerith still gets her spotlight and they don't stop you from trying to romance her or say outright not to see her that way though they don't mind downplaying the romance aspect and taking scenes from OG away to do so. And we do see the game flesh out their endgame couples more clearly. So that's their focus while it wasn't in OG.

I don't know just my thoughts.

I don't think canon has changed per say but I think in 1997 Square didn't care what people thought was canon thus it was more ambiguous then than now. And now they do enough to add stuff to their 27 year old narrative that shows their intended love interests a lot early on. Basically that they chose a lane and put a magnifying glass and neon lights around it.

Exactly.

That's why even if I can appear pretty cold/severe, I never said it's wrong to ship Clerith. People have the right to do so, because OG is its own thing.

It's just that they added so much stuff now, you can't just dismiss it and outright say : "Clerith is canon. It's a real thing and the true endgame". It's just not.

That's why this LTD war is a bunch on nonsense because the "normal" side of CloTi are just people following the story as they've been told.

We're not in 1997 anymore. The work may have surpassed the artist. We'll never know if what Nojima is doing right now has always been the plan all along. But they chose to make the lanes pretty clear now. It may be heartbreaking when you saw Cloud and Aerith as romantic since forever. But sadly it's not the story they chose to tell.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Well... we'll be back for the teaser during the next anniversary and again for the teaser/trailer during a big summer show.


Exactly.

That's why even if I can appear pretty cold/severe, I never said it's wrong to ship Clerith. People have the right to do so, because OG is its own thing.

It's just that they added so much stuff now, you can't just dismiss it and outright say : "Clerith is canon. It's a real thing and the true endgame". It's just not.

That's why this LTD war is a bunch on nonsense because the "normal" side of CloTi are just people following the story as they've been told.

We're not in 1997 anymore. The work may have surpassed the artist. We'll never know if what Nojima is doing right now has always been the plan all along. But they chose to make the lanes pretty clear now. It may be heartbreaking when you saw Cloud and Aerith as romantic since forever. But sadly it's not the story they chose to tell.

Yeah I always say I accept Cloti and Zerith. But while I do like Zerith and don't hate Cloti that doesn't make me a Cloti. It doesn't erase that I'm a Clerith and (Aeriseph lol).
And I will always be.
I know people think giving up arguing for my couple to be canon does so but it's just quiet acceptance.

I didn't choose to see Cloud and Tifa as endgame but early on I saw the writing on the wall. I saw the direction the devs were going, what they were saying over time. I saw the shift in appearances of Aerith as they waned and Tifa started to shine more. And I just accepted it. I figured if that's the devs intention I'm not going to fight it. And it's just very clear what their intentions are. And the same way as I can't unsee CA as romantic I can't unsee that the devs want to confirm Zerith and Cloti as unambiguously as possible. I just can't unsee it because I have been observing and following for a long time. I've even seen posts by other CAs who said the same as me years ago about this shift.

I won't say it means I lost hope or anything dramatic I just think they have made up their minds about their vision and it's fruitless for me to question it. So I enjoy whatever scenes I get and I enjoy the characters and the story I do get while of course gushing over every ship crumb and interaction between my favorite characters anyway.

And I decided long ago can just appreciate whatever I get even if a story is not going my way. It's my usual philosophy with media. Just to appreciate what's there, regardless and never really have expectations.

I know people think it invalidates CA to say such a thing. But it doesn't erase the fact the bond they have in whatever context is beautiful and should be cherished regardless of how the story goes. To me it doesn't invalidate anything I just appreciate them all the more with no need to prove something.

Idk

That is just me. I do feel it's not wrong to want them to be canon. I don't think anyone enjoying their moments is wrong either. We just can't pretend CT is not very obviously getting moments when they are. We can't pretend Nojima the lead writer doesn't intend to show their romance either, doesn't intend to flesh them out as a couple and together. And that's enough for me to gracefully bow out. We could all be wrong of course and the 3rd game is what nobody expects but I cut my losses because I don't see it any other way.

 

[Stiggie]

Yeah I always say I accept Cloti and Zerith. But while I do like Zerith and don't hate Cloti that doesn't make me a Cloti. I know people think giving up arguing for my couple to be canon does so but it's just quiet acceptance.

I didn't choose to see Cloud and Tifa as endgame but early on I saw the writing on the wall. I saw the direction the devs were going, what they were saying over time. I saw the shift in appearances of Aerith as they waned and Tifa started to shine more. And I just accepted it. I figured if that's the devs intention I'm not going to fight it. And it's just very clear what their intentions are. And the same way as I can't unsee CA as romantic I can't unsee that the devs want to confirm Zerith and Cloti as unambiguously as possible. I just can't unsee it because I have been observing and following for a long time. I've even seen posts by other CAs who said the same as me years ago about this shift.

I won't say it means I lost hope or anything dramatic I just think they have made up their minds about their vision and it's fruitless for me to question it. So I enjoy whatever scenes I get and I enjoy the characters and the story I do get while of course gushing over every ship crumb and interaction between my favorite characters anyway.

And I decided long ago can just appreciate whatever I get even if the story is not going my way in the end.

I know people think it invalidates CA to say such a thing. But it doesn't erase the fact the bond they have in whatever context is beautiful and should be cherished regardless of how the story goes. To me it doesn't invalidate anything I just appreciate them all the more with no need to prove something.

Idk

That is just me. I do feel it's not wrong to want them to be canon. I don't think anyone enjoying their moments is wrong either. We just can't pretend CT is not very obviously getting moments when they are. We can't pretend Nojima the lead writer doesn't intend to show their romance either, doesn't intend to flesh them out as a couple and together. And that's enough for me to gracefully bow out. We could all be wrong of course and the 3rd game is what nobody expects but I cut my losses because I don't see it any other way.

Can I ask though, why do you just "not hate" Cloti? Why don't you love it?

I've always been able to understand liking Aerith, and I've been able to understand liking the story potential of a Clerith romance IF the story were done differently and Tifa and Zack and all the issues we discuss here weren't a thing.

Basically I get the idea that "if things had gone very differently Clerith could have been a pretty good story".

But things didn't go differently, and I just don't understand why anyone would wish for Clerith to be a thing when things like Zack being shown to be devotedly trying to get back to Aerith and just being THE BEST, or Tifa and Cloud having an absolutely heartwarming romance, are right there.
Why would anyone who likes Aerith and Cloud want them to be in love if that means they're essentially both miserable since Aerith is dead?

And why on earth would anyone not LOVE Cloti when Cloud and Tifa together are as adorable as they are, and with the story of Cloud and Tifa being as good as it is? I just don't get how a fan of any character, or even a fan of any specific bond between two characters, would want Clerith to be canon, since I'd argue that even the bond between Aerith and Cloud feels less special if it's a romance.

Like, I guess essentially what I wonder is: Lets for fun assume that in part 3 SE will decide to just flip the script entirely and end the game with Cloud and Aerith madly in love and Zack and Tifa sad and forgotten about but accepting.... is that really something you'd want to see? Would that really make you happy? Would that feel like you just got the best possible story that made the best possible use of these characters? Wouldn't even you kinda feel like they just burned the entire thing down and ruined their story and characters, including Cloud and Aerith? And if not....why?

Would that really make you more happy than seeing Cloud and Tifa unambiguously find solace with each other under the highwind, and ending this 27 year long tale with them smiling together happily, and Aerith and Zack looking back together happily? and if so, WHY?!

 

[Yoru]

Yeah I always say I accept Cloti and Zerith. But while I do like Zerith and don't hate Cloti that doesn't make me a Cloti. It doesn't erase that I'm a Clerith and (Aeriseph lol).
And I will always be.
I know people think giving up arguing for my couple to be canon does so but it's just quiet acceptance.

I didn't choose to see Cloud and Tifa as endgame but early on I saw the writing on the wall. I saw the direction the devs were going, what they were saying over time. I saw the shift in appearances of Aerith as they waned and Tifa started to shine more. And I just accepted it. I figured if that's the devs intention I'm not going to fight it. And it's just very clear what their intentions are. And the same way as I can't unsee CA as romantic I can't unsee that the devs want to confirm Zerith and Cloti as unambiguously as possible. I just can't unsee it because I have been observing and following for a long time. I've even seen posts by other CAs who said the same as me years ago about this shift.

I won't say it means I lost hope or anything dramatic I just think they have made up their minds about their vision and it's fruitless for me to question it. So I enjoy whatever scenes I get and I enjoy the characters and the story I do get while of course gushing over every ship crumb and interaction between my favorite characters anyway.

And I decided long ago can just appreciate whatever I get even if a story is not going my way. It's my usual philosophy with media. Just to appreciate what's there, regardless and never really have expectations.

I know people think it invalidates CA to say such a thing. But it doesn't erase the fact the bond they have in whatever context is beautiful and should be cherished regardless of how the story goes. To me it doesn't invalidate anything I just appreciate them all the more with no need to prove something.

Idk

That is just me. I do feel it's not wrong to want them to be canon. I don't think anyone enjoying their moments is wrong either. We just can't pretend CT is not very obviously getting moments when they are. We can't pretend Nojima the lead writer doesn't intend to show their romance either, doesn't intend to flesh them out as a couple and together. And that's enough for me to gracefully bow out. We could all be wrong of course and the 3rd game is what nobody expects but I cut my losses because I don't see it any other way.

Don't be afraid. It's not your ship death, it's a homecoming.

But more seriously. It's the good and healthy thing to do.

Like I already said here, Cloud and Aerith are still in love in the 202X FF7 era. It's just not a romantic one. It's something else. Something of their own. A love of two lonely people in life who found each other in strange circumstances.

And I'm sure you'll have plenty of CA thing to enjoy in Part 3 ! Not the one you imagined back then, but precious ones still !

 

[Eerie]

Yes. The devs also grew in their vision and writing skills; and I can't help but think the women pitying Tifa in AC definitely left their mark on Nomura. I'll always think that AC was made to please both CA and CT, but that ultimately failed when people went to him "oh poor Tifa". I think it was a turning point with the devs, with them understanding that being vague also meant the fans were never going to see what they were going for.

To them, I think Cloud and Tifa were always the endgame - right from the start Nomura himself explains to you that you can chose who to court, but there's no branching path, ie the Lifestream sequence is supposed to give you the answer to whom Cloud truly loves. But as you said it didn't matter in the end, it was a one shot, if people wanted to see CA, then why not.

Except when you are writing more for the franchise then it becomes a problem: your hero sounds like a jerk, the dead heroine like a terrible friend, and the heroine who's alive who's at best second best. And that's not the kind of engaging story you want to write, really, so you have to reconsider how to reconstruct your narrative so that people will get it; and IMHO the Re trilogy is proof of that.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Can I ask though, why do you just "not hate" Cloti? Why don't you love it?

I've always been able to understand liking Aerith, and I've been able to understand liking the story potential of a Clerith romance IF the story were done differently and Tifa and Zack and all the issues we discuss here weren't a thing.

Basically I get the idea that "if things had gone very differently Clerith could have been a pretty good story".

But things didn't go differently, and I just don't why anyone would wish for Clerith to be a thing when things like Zack being shown to be devotedly trying to get back to Aerith and just being THE BEST, or Tifa and Cloud having an absolutely heartwarming romance, are right there.
Why would anyone who likes Aerith and Cloud want them to be in love if that means they're essentially both miserable since Aerith is dead?

And why on earth would anyone not LOVE Cloti when Cloud and Tifa together are as adorable as they are, and with the story of Cloud and Tifa being as good as it is? I just don't get how a fan of any character, or even a fan of any specific bond between two characters, would want Clerith to be canon, since I'd argue that even the bond between Aerith and Cloud feels less special if it's a romance.

To be clear my feelings towards CT have nothing to do with canon. The following however will answer the question for the curious. It's basically preference.
Preference that is separate from everything else as it should be. Because in argumentation we are supposed to leave them out for a non biased perspective. It's fandom that often conflates them:

But here it is my feelings toward CT not fact, not argument, just feelings:

I had a whole blog post on this but to put it simply I don't care as much for couples when it's obvious they're going to end up together. It's obvious CT will end up together

Also if something is too familiar to me I lose interest. I'm an anime fan so osanajimi romance is nothing new to me. Tale as old as time. I'm an introvert as is my husband so seeing two introverts getting together is just.... My life. Nothing really groundbreaking. The Lifestream scene where Tifa goes into his mind? I'm an Evangelion fan and I've seen similar with the whole Carl Jung persona memories true self being unlocked thing. Jungian psychology stuff in media is my jam but I've seen it. Many times. And FF7 is influenced by Evangelion there are literally scenes that play homage to it. So to me it's not as unique as to others. Even when I was 16 it didn't really strike me as a favorite scene. It's a very beautiful one but

I don't know. It didn't grab me.

I don't seek out media to be relatable to me but to show me things I wouldn't normally see. Cloti is very sweet but it's also very mundane. I enjoy fanfiction of them, there are several fanfics that are my favorite but they're usually post Advent Children domestic related or an AU that continues from childhood on. I love their dynamic in childhood I love the water tower scene and to explore what could have been had Nibelhiem not burned down etc is interesting to me. I like them in AU like in Dissidia duodecim. I enjoy exploring the parts Nojima did not show me.

But what's currently there in the story was never enough to keep my attention I'm sorry. I like them a lot better in Rebirth though. I agree it's adorable and I don't think it's bad or boring but for me who has been in so many fandoms has seen hundreds of childhood romances and shipped hundreds of characters I'm gonna need more than that to stay invested in the long run.

I also can't stand when a guy is all about a girl in any media and Mr. Strife is unfortunately that way by design.

I put it like this on my blog I do technically "ship them" in a sense, in fanon and I like them enough. I like art of them I think their scenes are nice.

My favorite motif of them is the starry sky. I'm just not a Cloti and I don't think I will ever be.

They just aren't my favorite.

Like to put it with an anaology:

I love teal. It's my favorite color. I also like yellow it's very nice. It's pretty, I don't hate it. But if you give me yellow I won't be upset but my reaction will not be excited because my favorite color is teal.

I have synesthesia too so I can say Cloti is in many cases that yellow for me.

I don't want to bash your ship and I know you love it but just because we love something doesn't mean others will. The story is the story and dev intent is dev intent and nothing is wrong with CT. And nothing about my preferences makes it a bad story. Nothing about anyone's preferences makes other's preferences bad either. Nor does it make a story badly written. Yes it's a beautiful story. I can appreciate it as that.

And maybe that's the problem with LTD. People have grabbed on to their preference and personal feelings so they don't want to look at the story as is. I don't think my preferences have anything to do in a discussion about canon but I see how they can be conflated and are often conflated.

To me they're very seperate. I compartmentalize them very far apart. I think everyone should.

But para los gustos se hicieron los colores for our tastes colors were invented.
And at the end of the day regardless I can't change that my favorite color is still teal.

Edit: Elaboration on the division between talking about canon vs. preference.

 

[nars305]

I'm listening Rebirth OST and just found out they put Tifa's date theme first on the list.

Cloti confirmed CANON date. Rest is optional. Tifa won. End of the story.

(doesn't mean shit, just wanted to have fun and show how we can thorn the narrative when one want to make a point.)

View attachment 15470

This is hilarious and sad at the same time because that is the logic I see a lot!

 

[nars305]

Yes. The devs also grew in their vision and writing skills; and I can't help but think the women pitying Tifa in AC definitely left their mark on Nomura.

This makes me think of Case of Tifa. I read it recently and I did feel sorry for her. She’s dealing with her guilt but then also has to deal with Cloud’s. Then he brings Denzel, and leaves her with the two kids. Though, Marlene and Denzel are very special to her.

It did give me a little sting towards Cloud. It’s like I understand it but at the same time I was like man he sucks a little bit for that. Especially when Tifa asks about “them” and he can’t answer it.

It’s honestly the main reason why I hope the game doesn’t flow right into AC. I want to see Tifa and Cloud happy. I want to see that day off they took.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Can I ask though, why do you just "not hate" Cloti? Why don't you love it?

I've always been able to understand liking Aerith, and I've been able to understand liking the story potential of a Clerith romance IF the story were done differently and Tifa and Zack and all the issues we discuss here weren't a thing.

Basically I get the idea that "if things had gone very differently Clerith could have been a pretty good story".

But things didn't go differently, and I just don't understand why anyone would wish for Clerith to be a thing when things like Zack being shown to be devotedly trying to get back to Aerith and just being THE BEST, or Tifa and Cloud having an absolutely heartwarming romance, are right there.
Why would anyone who likes Aerith and Cloud want them to be in love if that means they're essentially both miserable since Aerith is dead?

And why on earth would anyone not LOVE Cloti when Cloud and Tifa together are as adorable as they are, and with the story of Cloud and Tifa being as good as it is? I just don't get how a fan of any character, or even a fan of any specific bond between two characters, would want Clerith to be canon, since I'd argue that even the bond between Aerith and Cloud feels less special if it's a romance.

Like, I guess essentially what I wonder is: Lets for fun assume that in part 3 SE will decide to just flip the script entirely and end the game with Cloud and Aerith madly in love and Zack and Tifa sad and forgotten about but accepting.... is that really something you'd want to see? Would that really make you happy? Would that feel like you just got the best possible story that made the best possible use of these characters? Wouldn't even you kinda feel like they just burned the entire thing down and ruined their story and characters, including Cloud and Aerith? And if not....why?

Would that really make you more happy than seeing Cloud and Tifa unambiguously find solace with each other under the highwind, and ending this 27 year long tale with them smiling together happily, and Aerith and Zack looking back together happily? and if so, WHY?!

So to clarify me not loving Cloti has zero to do with the story they're telling to be clear. The story is the story. I don't think right now they'd make Clerith endgame with the way theyre going and I wouldn't want them to now after making Zack so prominent or setting up CT like they did. It just would be very complicated I think.

I gave up on Clerith as endgame like more than a decade ago. So I wouldn't WANT them to be canon as the story is now no. Before Rebirth sure. But not now.

But

Doesn't change the fact I'm not a Cloti though and doesn't make me hate Cloud and Tifa but still doesn't change that I don't love it either. And I'm honestly wondering why should I LOVE it?
It doesn't really change where the story is going nor my enjoyment of it or my appreciation of it. I like them enough.

And I can't really change that. It's just they're not my favorite. I've tried to see them differently but I can't get excited about it even if I am fine with them. In the end, if it doesn't vibe it doesn't vibe and that's okay. It doesn't again mean anything is wrong with the story they're telling.

And as I said I compartmentalize my feelings and preference from the actual story all the time. They are very seperate things which I always think should stay seperate in a discussion of canon so yeah as it stands now I'm fine with CA non canon. And I love Zerith too so the way they're going is the best choice for their current trajectory I think.

Edit: Elaborated further on the difference between preference and canon acceptance.
Clarified my meaning.

 

[Jane Fane]

I have synesthesia too so I can say Cloti is in many cases that yellow for me.

Synesthesia fam!

Do you really see them as yellow or was that just an example? Ever since 1997, Cloti have been navy and green for me, no doubt because of The Promise and LS imagery. I'm curious what colors Clerith or Zerith are for you?

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Synesthesia fam!

Do you really see them as yellow or was that just an example? Ever since 1997, Cloti have been navy and green for me, no doubt because of The Promise and LS imagery. I'm curious what colors Clerith or Zerith are for you?

I really do.
They're yellow gold to me. Like marigold? Sometimes like gold star stickers.

Zerith is oceanish blue. Clerith changes sometimes to white but it's like a very light pink almost white and sometimes teal. Nothing like the pink the fandom associates them with. Aeriseph my other OTP is purple btw lol.

But yeah it doesn't mean I have anything AGAINST Cloti. Or even the color yellow.

 

[Rin]

Yeah I always say I accept Cloti and Zerith. But while I do like Zerith and don't hate Cloti that doesn't make me a Cloti. It doesn't erase that I'm a Clerith and (Aeriseph lol).
And I will always be.
I know people think giving up arguing for my couple to be canon does so but it's just quiet acceptance.

I didn't choose to see Cloud and Tifa as endgame but early on I saw the writing on the wall. I saw the direction the devs were going, what they were saying over time. I saw the shift in appearances of Aerith as they waned and Tifa started to shine more. And I just accepted it. I figured if that's the devs intention I'm not going to fight it. And it's just very clear what their intentions are. And the same way as I can't unsee CA as romantic I can't unsee that the devs want to confirm Zerith and Cloti as unambiguously as possible. I just can't unsee it because I have been observing and following for a long time. I've even seen posts by other CAs who said the same as me years ago about this shift.

I won't say it means I lost hope or anything dramatic I just think they have made up their minds about their vision and it's fruitless for me to question it. So I enjoy whatever scenes I get and I enjoy the characters and the story I do get while of course gushing over every ship crumb and interaction between my favorite characters anyway.

And I decided long ago can just appreciate whatever I get even if a story is not going my way. It's my usual philosophy with media. Just to appreciate what's there, regardless and never really have expectations.

I know people think it invalidates CA to say such a thing. But it doesn't erase the fact the bond they have in whatever context is beautiful and should be cherished regardless of how the story goes. To me it doesn't invalidate anything I just appreciate them all the more with no need to prove something.

Idk

That is just me. I do feel it's not wrong to want them to be canon. I don't think anyone enjoying their moments is wrong either. We just can't pretend CT is not very obviously getting moments when they are. We can't pretend Nojima the lead writer doesn't intend to show their romance either, doesn't intend to flesh them out as a couple and together. And that's enough for me to gracefully bow out. We could all be wrong of course and the 3rd game is what nobody expects but I cut my losses because I don't see it any other way.

This is very healthy and it's the way I approach fandom as well. You can't make me ship canon if I don't like it, but I'm not going to argue against canon either. That's just a waste of time, in my opinion. For example, I do not ship Inuyasha and Kagome, but why would I sit there arguing that they're not canon when it's right in front of my face? Accepting the story as it's told doesn't mean you have to ship the main ship, nor does it mean you hate the media you're partaking in.

Idk. I wish more people had a healthier viewpoint on media and interacting with it as a whole. Cloud and Aerith are friends with a romantic b-plot, so of course the relationship is there for fans to enjoy. I don't ship it, but I personally love their dynamic and I love seeing them interact. I get angry when Cloud is rude to her and I make sure to choose all his nice dialogue options. I fully looked up how to romance her for Rebirth because I wanted to ensure I was picking all the right options and deepening their bond, but I still don't ship them.

Sometimes, it feels like I enjoy them more than (certain) members of their actual fandom does because I accept their bond at face value and enjoy what I'm given instead of searching for more meaning and trying to overcomplicate the narrative by forcing them together at every turn. Aerith never had friends before. She's only had a boyfriend, so of course meeting Cloud is confusing for her and of course she's trying to figure out if she likes him or likes him. She can tell that these feelings are different than the ones she felt for Zack but what, exactly, does different mean? That's simply what she's trying to figure out and that's the beauty (and tragedy) of their relationship because she dies before she gets those answers.

When I first heard about the dream date, I hated the idea of it, but when I played it myself I actually wound up loving it because 1) It not only gives Aerith 'more time' to figure out her feelings for Cloud but; 2) It provides them with one last memory of fun before everything comes crashing down and Cloud will be forced to accept reality in part 3. The OG is harsh in that Cloud never gets the chance to apologize to Aerith for the way he treated her leading up to her death. He wasn't himself and they lost a lot of time to make things right between them and figure out where they stand, but the dream date is like Aerith's gift to both of them to have one last good memory together.

And yes, it's based off of a memory she made with someone else and everything goes wrong, but as she says with a hug and a smile, "It's been fun." And it has been, for Aerith, for Cloud, and for the player.

 

[Stiggie]

I had a whole blog post on this but to put it simply I don't care as much for couples when it's obvious they're going to end up together. It's obvious CT will end up together

Also if something is too familiar to me I lose interest. I'm an anime fan so osanajimi romance is nothing new to me. Tale as old as time. I'm an introvert as is my husband so seeing two introverts getting together is just.... My life. Nothing really groundbreaking. The Lifestream scene where Tifa goes into his mind? I'm an Evangelion fan and I've seen similar with the whole Carl Jung persona memories true self being unlocked thing. And FF7 is influenced by Evangelion there are literally scenes that play homage to it. So to me it's not as unique as to others. Even when I was 16 it didn't really strike me as a favorite scene. It's a very beautiful one but

I don't know. It didn't grab me.

I don't seek out media to be relatable to me but to show me things I wouldn't normally see. Cloti is very sweet but it's also very mundane. I enjoy fanfiction of them, there are several fanfics that are my favorite but they're usually Advent Children domestic related or an AU that continues from childhood on. I love their dynamic in childhood I love the water tower scene and to explore what could have been had Nibelhiem not burned down etc is interesting to me. I love them in AU like in Dissidia duodecim. I love exploring the parts Nojima did not show me.

But what's currently there in the story was never enough to keep my attention I'm sorry. I like them a lot better in Rebirth though. I agree it's adorable and I don't think it's bad or boring but for me who has been in so many fandoms has seen hundreds of childhood romances and shipped hundreds of characters I'm gonna need more than that to stay invested in the long run.

I also can't stand when a guy is all about a girl in any media and Mr. Strife is unfortunately that way by design.

I put like this on my blog I do ship them in fanon and I like them enough my favorite motif of them is the starry sky.

They just aren't my favorite.

Like I love teal it's my favorite color. I also like yellow it's very nice. It's pretty I don't hate it. But if you give me yellow my reaction will not be excited because my favorite color is teal.

I have synesthesia too so I can say Cloti is in many cases that yellow for me.

I don't want to bash your ship and I know you love it but just because we love something doesn't mean others will. The story is the story dev is dev intent but para los gustos se hicieron los colores for our tastes colors were invented.

Yeah, I probably have the opposite.
I watch anime a lot as well but if there is one thing that I hate about anime it's that the childhood friend seemingly never wins. And if there is one thing that I CANNOT stand it's watching a girl in anime be in love and be genuinely precious and amazing and doing her best right from the start, only to invariably lose the man she loves to some random woman who just showed up one day, probably treating the main character awfully. I just can't stand it, to the point that I legit went into an existential depression at one point where I realized that even in fictional universes there is no happiness because apparently we just want good people to suffer or something.

That's one of the reasons I love Cloti, it's a rare instance where the person I was rooting for actually "won". It might be obvious now that Cloud and Tifa are endgame, but it certainly wasn't during disc 1 back in 1997. What I want in romance is the relief and joy of watching two people who have yearned for each other for a long time finally getting that fulfillment. What's more I tend to care more about the female characters so I dislike almost any love triangle since I will invariably start feeling bad for the underdog and rooting for them, which will lead to my heart being broken and me just not being able to enjoy the product.

In essence this is why I still love Cloti, because to me Tifa is still the underdog. She's not of course, but only because she's already won. From purely an outside perspective Tifa is the ultimate underdog who went up against the magical typical love interest....and won.

 

[Eerie]

This makes me think of Case of Tifa. I read it recently and I did feel sorry for her. She’s dealing with her guilt but then also has to deal with Cloud’s. Then he brings Denzel, and leaves her with the two kids. Though, Marlene and Denzel are very special to her.

It did give me a little sting towards Cloud. It’s like I understand it but at the same time I was like man he sucks a little bit for that. Especially when Tifa asks about “them” and he can’t answer it.

There are two problems with CoT:

• it's a setup to AC/C
• it doesn't show enough the good moments

We see in CoT Cloud being that anchor that Tifa needs, but because it's a setup it means that things cannot be answered to in the novella itself. "On the Way to a Smile".... actually says a lot, it means it can't be sunshines there. What we don't necessarily see but the devs tell us (which is BAD), is that Cloud was happy. He was happier and happier and that lead him to being afraid of losing it all.
And then yes you can see in AC/C that their problems are certainly going to get resolved, but you also do not get that. Only Cloud's problems of guilt are resolved (as well as Geostigma). We only are hinted at "oh look how Tifa looks at him and how he answers her with a smile". The actual ending to AC/C is in the Kids are Alright, which means that yes, you have to consume a THIRD media to see how it all ends. And honestly, that's asking a bit much even if I do love TKaA.

It’s honestly the main reason why I hope the game doesn’t flow right into AC. I want to see Tifa and Cloud happy. I want to see that day off they took.

I kind of wish that too, but I'm not sure they're going to do that. They could however use the very hopeful first pages of CoT, for example, with them rebuilding 7th Heaven, being cute together, but CoT is already contradicted by Rebirth because in CoT Tifa states she couldn't cry for Aerith since after they defeated Sephiroth, however she definitely did cry at the end of Rebirth. But there are moments that can build up towards happiness and hope even right after the OG and that will lead to AC/C, yes.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Yeah, I probably have the opposite.
I watch anime a lot as well but if there is one thing that I hate about anime it's that the childhood friend seemingly never wins. And if there is one thing that I CANNOT stand it's watching a girl in anime be in love and be genuinely precious and amazing and doing her best right from the start, only to invariably lose the man she loves to some random woman who just showed up one day, probably treating the main character awfully. I just can't stand it, to the point that I legit went into an existential depression at one point where I realized that even in fictional universes there is no happiness because apparently we just want good people to suffer or something.

That's one of the reasons I love Cloti, it's a rare instance where the person I was rooting for actually "won". It might be obvious now that Cloud and Tifa are endgame, but it certainly wasn't during disc 1 back in 1997. What I want in romance is the relief and joy of watching two people who have yearned for each other for a long time finally getting that fulfillment. What's more I tend to care more about the female characters so I dislike almost any love triangle since I will invariably start feeling bad for the underdog and rooting for them, which will lead to my heart being broken and me just not being able to enjoy the product.

In essence this is why I still love Cloti, because to me Tifa is still the underdog. She's not of course, but only because she's already won. From purely an outside perspective Tifa is the ultimate underdog who went up against the magical typical love interest....and won.

I can see that and I don't think you're wrong for it. As I said nothing about how I feel about Cloti is a reflection of the story and how it goes. Or the dev's intent. Or the quality of writing.
I think in fandom often give too much weight to other people's feelings as a reflection of a work when it's honestly just other people's feelings. But in terms of anime tropes I think the childhood friend losing hasn't been done in long time. I think in 1997 definitely it was subversive but in 2024. As I said I've just seen a lot of osanajimi and promises and guy is all about a girl from his past. And even before 1997 these existed too just not as common so I'm just not gonna pay as much investment. While I genuinely think illusion love triangles are more subversive and interesting just also drama causing and now outdated.

As for me at age 16 in the early 2000's while maybe it wasn't obvious they'd be a couple I definitely thought it was obvious Cloud and Tifa were romantic in the Lifestream scene. I never saw them as just friends. I just for lack of a better word didn't care back then. Over time I got to appreciate their story.

And just right now the way they set it up unless they go a very different course I just don't see Clerith as endgame. Maybe after Remake they could have kept it ambiguous but now especially with bringing Zack in... I don't see it. If they decided to make CA anyway after all this. I don't know how I'd feel. I don't think I'd be outraged either or estastic based on how they'd need to really put work into it after this set up...but it really depends on the how. And it's anyone's guess what that would look like.

But I am not expecting it or wanting it because I'm at peace with what I did get. If that makes sense?

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah, I probably have the opposite.
I watch anime a lot as well but if there is one thing that I hate about anime it's that the childhood friend seemingly never wins. And if there is one thing that I CANNOT stand it's watching a girl in anime be in love and be genuinely precious and amazing and doing her best right from the start, only to invariably lose the man she loves to some random woman who just showed up one day, probably treating the main character awfully. I just can't stand it, to the point that I legit went into an existential depression at one point where I realized that even in fictional universes there is no happiness because apparently we just want good people to suffer or something.

That's one of the reasons I love Cloti, it's a rare instance where the person I was rooting for actually "won". It might be obvious now that Cloud and Tifa are endgame, but it certainly wasn't during disc 1 back in 1997. What I want in romance is the relief and joy of watching two people who have yearned for each other for a long time finally getting that fulfillment. What's more I tend to care more about the female characters so I dislike almost any love triangle since I will invariably start feeling bad for the underdog and rooting for them, which will lead to my heart being broken and me just not being able to enjoy the product.

In essence this is why I still love Cloti, because to me Tifa is still the underdog. She's not of course, but only because she's already won. From purely an outside perspective Tifa is the ultimate underdog who went up against the magical typical love interest....and won.

Kiznaiver flashbacks.

I remember ending up hating it because it was an interesting premise that just devolved into relationship drama.

But it has some of what you mentioned here. I was annoyed.