GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
There is Reminiscence but I agree, we really need a post-AC scene of their domestic bliss.
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Marketing should never be treated as authoritative or reflecting of the actual narrative. I've gone at length about this, but for example the FF8 commercial outright lies and tells you the opposite of the truth.
I mean, I AM the Admiral.Considering it's my money I think I can discuss the marketing materials if I want (I get a bit ruffled when people tell me what I can and can't do heh unless you have actual authority)
But as other stated, this is less authoritative and more recommended, because Marketing is selling you a sizzle that may or may not match the final product and you're never going to convince most people that way.
I mean the song as a whole seems to be about tearful goodbyes and hoping they never need come again, so it would track that while she's saying goodbye to Cloud he would be the goodbye it references.
I don't think FF7 was referencing Evangelion so much as it was drawing from the same source well which was the fascination with Jewish and Christian gnostic imagery and concepts that was very popular in the 90s in Japan.
abzy1200
Pro Adventurer
The thing is, people aren't even really wrong for thinking that in the first place. Case of Tifa is in dire need of something that showcases Cloud was happy with them. Almost everything in it except for a couple things makes them all seem absolutely miserable.
I think devoting a segment/scene to, maybe, them having dinner together or something could have helped with that, before Cloud was asked to deliver the flowers to Forgotten Capital that is.
Then again, I'm not the author, and I'm also not very good with literature in general, so I don't actually know if my idea is a good one.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I actually disagree, there are a few instances in there that imply Cloud is happy as he spends time with the three of them,
However, the more angsty stuff is explicit because they are using that as a basis to set up where he is in Advent Children.
They’re more noticeable because of that and so those are the moments that stuck out to readers.
I do agree though that they need to do more to show the happier side of that arrangement as I believe a lot of misconceptions arose because of it.
However, the more angsty stuff is explicit because they are using that as a basis to set up where he is in Advent Children.
They’re more noticeable because of that and so those are the moments that stuck out to readers.
I do agree though that they need to do more to show the happier side of that arrangement as I believe a lot of misconceptions arose because of it.
That might be, doesn't change the fact that I almost invariably hate them and want to dropkick them through a window XD
Like I said, Tifa and Cloud is one of the few, and probably my most historically significant feeling examples where I felt like my sweet gambare underdog girl won and finally got some happiness. And what's more after the most horrifying and depressing series of "L"s imaginable. I don't know any other character that I feel deserves a win, deserves her "happy end", more. So that's probably one of the reasons I'm just so bothered about this entire thing being drawn out by the fans if not the developers.
Look at AC, sure, if you understand the story you know it's a happy end, but what do we get to see? Tifa being miserable 2 years on. Case of Tifa, what do we see? Tifa being miserable. By never just closing the book SE have essentially just made it so that the one time where I really felt happy about a girls loyalty and efforts being rewarded....still hasn't gotten closure.
Which is why the kissing scene felt sooooo satisfying after 27 years. And why I would not take it well if after 27 years they were to decide to reverse the one win that has always meant so much to me. Honestly would feel like a confirmation that we can't have nice things in our world.
Ironically I just read a new chapter in a manga I follow where the childhood friend loses where I did actually root for the "manic pink whirlwind that came suddenly into his life".
abzy1200
Pro Adventurer
Yeah, as I said I'm not very good with literature, I'm not denying he was happy, I actually like to think he was really happy. I mean, the whole premise is that he thinks he's unworthy of said happiness he was experiencing due to past failures/inadequacy. It is meant to set up advent children after all.
Maybe I just want see more happy domestic Cloti because there's so very little of it.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Hopefully, we’ll get it after Part 3. In the form of a scene or a short story.
Empyrea
Pro Adventurer
Oh gooood Kiznaiver....
That anime had such a good premise. It's really a shame that what you said happened.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I like the idea that it was made to share physical pain but then tackled emotional pain.
But what really grinded my gears is the idea that the emotional pain they focused on was relationship drama. Which is maybe fine for one or two characters but it quickly becomes mostly all of them.
There are other types of emotional pain than unrequited feelings, ya know.
nars305
🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
TKAA is awesome really, should be mandatory to read xD It took me a while to realise who Marlene was referring to when she said "dad" at the end
For CoT I think a lot of fans didn't understand how happy Cloud actually was, and it highlighted the bumps in their relationship, so people don't really understand that Cloud was indeed happy, which tells me that Nojima didn't have enough space to write that in (since there must have been restrictions about the number of words etc.).
That’s what pulls me back to not be so bent about their hurdles. He was happy, just has horrible survivor’s guilt.
I think also for the LTD it’d be nice to see a more happier scene after AC to kill that argument more. That one that he was unhappy with Tifa because he loved Aerith. That’s me being selfish, but I’d love a scene of them being happy.
But honestly, in the third game if it is so abundantly clear for all to see that they have that soul mate kind of love then I probably won’t even care and accept the realism of the afterwards.
abzy1200
Pro Adventurer
This isn't really relevent to what you said, sorry, but it just reminded me of something.
What about Cloud and Aerith makes people think they are soulmates? Is it just an old thing that could have been true in the original back in 1997 that never really died out even after later story developments and or new material came out in the compilation?
Rin
Pro Adventurer
Just an old thing, I think. If I remember right, it goes back to Cait's compatibility prediction specifically.
In my humble opinion, people should be slightly more accurate in their reflections. Cloud, Tifa and Aerith are proof of the various shades that love can take on;
Cloud is in love with Aerith but not in love in the sense we mean:
for me it is clear that this remains the example of love understood as a strong spiritual connection that gives you strength and keeps you going. This type of love is friendship and what is friendship if not one of the purest and strongest forms of love there are?
On the other hand, Cloud loves Tifa not in the same way:
this is a love that comes from afar, carried in the heart over time and never (yet at least) expressed in all respects.
This type of love includes not only some aspects of love understood as friendship, but also some factors such as physical attraction (in rebirth it is obvious) and also a sense of inadequacy understood in never knowing how to behave with the person you are dealing with.
Cloud is in love with Aerith but not in love in the sense we mean:
for me it is clear that this remains the example of love understood as a strong spiritual connection that gives you strength and keeps you going. This type of love is friendship and what is friendship if not one of the purest and strongest forms of love there are?
On the other hand, Cloud loves Tifa not in the same way:
this is a love that comes from afar, carried in the heart over time and never (yet at least) expressed in all respects.
This type of love includes not only some aspects of love understood as friendship, but also some factors such as physical attraction (in rebirth it is obvious) and also a sense of inadequacy understood in never knowing how to behave with the person you are dealing with.
Our brain will trick us to see whatever we believe.
IMO Cloud and Aerith will never be soulmates in any context because Aerith has never met the real cloud without the soilder persona.
She doesn’t know him as him. She only knows a fake version of Cloud
Rin
Pro Adventurer
Yeah, they removed this along with Cloud promising to take her on an airship one day. Two of their most iconic scenes, which I did feel bad about but I think it was a good decision overall because Cloud isn't actually wavering between two girls. One is his friend and the other is the girl he's in love with.
luminous03
Lv. 25 Adventurer
- AKA
- Play
Just woke up to twitter in shambles again. GOD I should take this as a sign to delete it.
Apparently, many extremists jp CA are demanding and uploading hashtag to delete tifa's UTH or add an optional scene with aerith. Nothing new here but it got me wandering, as far as i know ff7 community is kinda toxic so has it ever been a similar situation that where the developers "backpedal" (heck i dnt even if i spell it correctly) in order to fulfil fan's wishes, ik it has been discussed that no need to worry about lifestream scene, but the doubt has defeated me again about UTH
Apparently, many extremists jp CA are demanding and uploading hashtag to delete tifa's UTH or add an optional scene with aerith. Nothing new here but it got me wandering, as far as i know ff7 community is kinda toxic so has it ever been a similar situation that where the developers "backpedal" (heck i dnt even if i spell it correctly) in order to fulfil fan's wishes, ik it has been discussed that no need to worry about lifestream scene, but the doubt has defeated me again about UTH
nars305
🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
I wonder this myself. From my perspective, I watched AC as a kid knowing nothing about FF7. From that I assumed Cloud and Tifa were together and it carried on to Remake. So I don’t think I ever had the capacity to view Aerith as the soulmate, seeing as the direction they took it in the Remake is very Cloud and Tifa heavy.
Rebirth is what really got me into this game, to the point of being on this forum. I was shocked when I saw there was a debate over this, and I still was a bit surprised after looking into how the OG twists and shows everything was for Tifa.
I feel like the intention was that Tifa and Cloud were soulmates and meant to be, otherwise, introducing Aerith with the intention of them being soulmates kind of makes that twist fall flat doesn’t it?
The game really can feel weird depending on who the player likes. It’s kind of like the last date. Someone here had said that moment can be jarring if you’ve romanced Tifa the whole time, and I agree. I feel like it’s very similar to how a Clerith person would view the LS sequence.
LunarTarotGirl
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Lunarae
Quote cut off for some reason
Yeah I know. I am super into all that too myself. It's why I love FF7's lore so much.
I just said it was similar to me. Not exactly direct references. But on a fun note there actually are homages to Evangelion in FF7. One scene that looks very much like references the spear of longinus intentionally, the weapons, and the Dplug suit reference you get in Gold Saucer is an homage which tells me the devs were at least fans. And I love that.
It was one of the biggest influences of other media around back then. It had one of the most famous love triangles back then which is also an illusiory triangle. Which was ended in a very interesting way in Rebuild.
And other games like Xenogears developed alongside of it with several ideas from Xenogears draft making it into FF7 and vise versa ...and the Xeno series in general and even modern games like Honkai Impact today still have references to it. All games I love. It was just a phenomenon of epic proportions in terms of media influence.
I don't think that means FF7 was a copy of it or anything or that the LS scene copied it but there are as I said homages in the game. It was just one of the influences around that time in terms of sheer popularity and media influence and yeah as you said Gnostic and JudoChristrianity mysticism was huge back then. And it was stuff I was into. And still am I've written huge essays about Gnosticism as well as Jungian psychology in FF7. So I think that's great. I just have seen similar over the years so the identity stuff doesn't grab me like someone who might see a scene like that for the first time.
Still my jam lorewise though.
Edit: Clarification and elaboration added and fixed the quote (I will stop talking before I jump into a series of tangent essays of 5000 words about Gnosticism and Jungian themes but basically in context to my answer my interest in that scene is more about the Jungian and Gnostic themes in general than the romance)
Yeah I know. I am super into all that too myself. It's why I love FF7's lore so much.
I just said it was similar to me. Not exactly direct references. But on a fun note there actually are homages to Evangelion in FF7. One scene that looks very much like references the spear of longinus intentionally, the weapons, and the Dplug suit reference you get in Gold Saucer is an homage which tells me the devs were at least fans. And I love that.
It was one of the biggest influences of other media around back then. It had one of the most famous love triangles back then which is also an illusiory triangle. Which was ended in a very interesting way in Rebuild.
And other games like Xenogears developed alongside of it with several ideas from Xenogears draft making it into FF7 and vise versa ...and the Xeno series in general and even modern games like Honkai Impact today still have references to it. All games I love. It was just a phenomenon of epic proportions in terms of media influence.
I don't think that means FF7 was a copy of it or anything or that the LS scene copied it but there are as I said homages in the game. It was just one of the influences around that time in terms of sheer popularity and media influence and yeah as you said Gnostic and JudoChristrianity mysticism was huge back then. And it was stuff I was into. And still am I've written huge essays about Gnosticism as well as Jungian psychology in FF7. So I think that's great. I just have seen similar over the years so the identity stuff doesn't grab me like someone who might see a scene like that for the first time.
Still my jam lorewise though.
Edit: Clarification and elaboration added and fixed the quote (I will stop talking before I jump into a series of tangent essays of 5000 words about Gnosticism and Jungian themes but basically in context to my answer my interest in that scene is more about the Jungian and Gnostic themes in general than the romance)
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GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I don’t think it’s anything to worry about.
The devs know that people that do this is a minority. Doubt it will affect any decisions they make in Part 3.
By the way, I haven’t seen these so I don’t know but…. Tweeting about deleting scenes so your ship can have it instead is kinda proof that it’s over.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Trust, they're gonna double down lol.
abzy1200
Pro Adventurer
If you want to count her interactions with him in Advent Children, then technically she has, I get what you're saying though and I agree.
You can't really know someone from only a couple brief exchanges.
Plus, wasn't Cait Sith lying about his fortunes just to get closer to the group? I know it's supposed to be a literary tactic but still.
Honestly, I feel like I could make a more compelling argument for Cloud and Tifa being "soulmates" from the lifestream sequence alone, are there any other examples of Cloud (forgive me if I get this wrong) giving someone access to his concious, which is occupied solely of memories and feelings for that person, and going over those memories and feelings with them is the only way to restore his true self?
This kind of proves how Cleriths can't even get their own arguments straight. If the Highwind scene is so "unimportant", "platonic", or "optional" why do they resent it so much? Why do they want and beg and plead for it to be removed all the time?
I'm very curious about how they are going to execute it. Definitely one of my most anticipated scenes for part 3 because of it. I wonder if they'll kiss and then a fade to black? maybe them getting slightly handsy?
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Advent Children does showcase Cloud’s bond with Aerith. Because it’s strong. People just assume it implies a romantic nature, which is the part that is interpretive.
Let’s not forget, Cloud also calls her Mother in this movie. And she walks off with Zack at the end with his sword memorialized in her church. A sword that is reinforced to be a representation of him because Cloud uses it as his grave marker earlier.
Let’s not forget, Cloud also calls her Mother in this movie. And she walks off with Zack at the end with his sword memorialized in her church. A sword that is reinforced to be a representation of him because Cloud uses it as his grave marker earlier.
abzy1200
Pro Adventurer
Cloud even put it in the church himself, I'm assuming. He shipped Zerith all along!
nars305
🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
I mean you can, and this is why I personally was surprised this was a debate spanning over two decades. I don’t know how Tifa’s actions and their past together can be overlooked.
If I remember right from when I watched the OG, isn’t it because Tifa finds him at train station that he becomes less of a mess? If I remember right he’s just kind of on the floor but then comes to when he realizes it’s Tifa in front of him.
And the promise my goodness. It’s so poetic that he leaves to become a solider, promises he’ll protect her when he does, comes back dejected and feeling like a loser, but defeats Sephiroth and was there for her when he felt unworthy to even be seen by her.