SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[liuliuliu]

The entire game in my opinion is a mock to people who like Aerith by ruining her death scene. Hopefully they will fix this in pt3.
Honestly I do think the most important moment for Aerith in Og is her death scene.
Aerith is in my top 10 JRPG heroine list. I like her, but not because I like her personality (her personality doesn’t stand out to me), but because I like the weight she added to the plot. For me she would be the ordinary heroine in any other JRPGs/Manga/Anime for me if she didn't die.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

The entire game in my opinion is a mock to people who like Aerith by ruining her death scene. Hopefully they will fix this in pt3.
Honestly I do think the most important moment for Aerith in Og is her death scene.
Aerith is in my top 10 JRPG heroine list. I like her, but not because I like her personality (her personality doesn’t stand out to me), but because I like the weight she added to the plot. For me she would be the ordinary heroine in any other JRPGs/Manga/Anime for me if she didn't die.

I have not gotten there yet but I think it's just another example of how the vision of creators can greatly differ from visions of fans. I don't think they tried to ruin it, nor are mocking Aerith fans with it. they just wanted it to have the same impact of shock as in OG and thus changed it up. Probably for the worse I am sure as it's such a delicate scene to change and it's exactly what I was worried would happen. But let's see what they do with it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I instantly prefer the black haired one lol.
Anyway, yeah, I think I've seen that dude before, the name Archie does ring a bell now that I know it's a cartoon.

From what I remember, Veronica (black haired girl) is the popular girl while Betty (blonde haired girl) is more down to earth.

It’s been ages since I read though so I may be misremembering.

Betty is the girl next door while Veronica is the rich girl. They are best friends and romantic rivals. Personally I tend to prefer Josie and Sabrina comics to standard Archie, but it's all absurd.

 

[LNK]

The entire game in my opinion is a mock to people who like Aerith by ruining her death scene.

Do you genuinely, from your heart think this?

You really think they'd add to her death scene, just to mock Aerith fans?

No disrespect, but that's a very self centered pov. I get it's your opinion, but damn.

 

[Yoru]

And I hope now people stop with the "EN translation is sooo bias" to either ship because to me it is very very clearly not. Any secret Clerith staff would have named that quest literally anything else because it would seem like it is trolling people who thought it was about Aerith or think of it as CA's song to reference something unrelated. And Nanaki of all characters.

There are parts they changed for CA too in EN like Cloud saying he'd wait for her is gone or he's bad at dates is changed to I wish you wouldn't, hey says it's your funeral when challenging her to Queensblood too not the most pro CA choice of words etc.

As well as stuff that is different for CT but then Midgar Blues in EN which is extremely pro CT referring to true love even was translated by very the same translators accused of being biased. And all this plus this reference just shows me they don't lean to any one side their changes probably have zero to do with LTD honestly.

The problem is not about EN localization being biased for one of the ship. The problem is that they put "LTD" stuff where there is nothing in the original, just to fuel the war.

I can give you examples, there's a ton honestly.

They just can't help themselves adding romance stuff that will sadly find the wrong echo in some places of the fandom.

 

[liuliuliu]

Do you genuinely, from your heart think this?

You really think they'd add to her death scene, just to mock Aerith fans?

No disrespect, but that's a very self centered pov. I get it's your opinion, but damn.

Yes I do. But it doesn’t mean I don’t like the game though. I like Aerith but she is not my favorite in the game. Her death scene is important but not so important to me.
Mock might not be the correct word though. I use it cause someone said translators are mocking CA.
It is the feeling where they all know what fans want but they will not show that because it is kept as a cliffhanger.
“Do you want to see her death scene? You have to play pt3” that is what I think about her death in rebirth.

 

[LNK]

Yes I do.
But it doesn’t mean I don’t like the game though. I like Aerith but she is not my favorite in the game. Her death scene is important but not so important to me.
Mock might not be the correct word though. I use it cause someone said translators are mocking CA.
It is the feeling where they all know what fans want but they will not show that because it is kept as a cliffhanger.
“Do you want to see her death scene? You have to play pt3” that is what I think about her death in rebirth.

Why though? When it comes down to it, these are artists who love what they do. They clearly have a passion for it. They are doing something unheard of for a remake. While yes, they left Rebirth on a cliffhanger, which makes sense since it's the middle part of a planned trilogy, I doubt they're intentionally trying to mock anyone. You'd have to "think this song is about you," to come to that conclusion. If anything, they are catering to Aerith fans by making her playable for a lot longer than they could've. Even if she's dead, she'll more than likely be playable even in the third game like Zack was in Rebirth.
I doubt fans were going to quit playing after Aerith's death. If they do, those aren't really fans of ff7 worth even caring about, imo.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

The problem is not about EN localization being biased for one of the ship. The problem is that they put "LTD" stuff where there is nothing in the original, just to fuel the war.

I can give you examples, there's a ton honestly.

They just can't help themselves adding romance stuff that will sadly find the wrong echo in some places of the fandom.

I know of those examples as I have seen it discussed for a while. I do think the choices made can be very wierd. I just don't think the purpose is LTD related.

There are cases where they tone it down too. In Remake for example the Japanese reaction of Aerith's pink dress is more favorable he outright says he likes it and as I said in Rebirth when Aerith calls it a date in Japanese he doesn't say I wish you wouldn't but he's bad at it. Also he says "wait for me" to Aerith in the Forgotten Capital but in English it's just "I got this" stuff like that where it can already be read as romantic to fans of the ship are toned down in EN. Same with CT scenes there are things that sound more romantic in JP.
If the point was really to fuel a war removing stuff that would already sound romantic doesn't seem very logical to me.

Which just tells me that's probably not their intention. The first EN translation team interview also talked about preserving dialogue from OG. So I think their focuses was on references and call backs which they stuck in the EN in weird places. Like Aerith saying let's mosey on over. And the quest Title of No Promises To Keep for the Nanaki quest.

Also there being weird choices with lines that have nothing to do with LTD as well like some of Sephiroth's lines for example. I'm your everything versus I'm your master which is a hint of the puppet line. Stuff like that.

Also funny I was one of the first people to complain about the I miss it the steel sky replacing I hate the sky and they actually fixed that one. So I just think we should be very careful of assigning intentions when there are probably a lot of other factors involved with why there are changes like matching lip syncs, and number of syllables in a sentence, obsession with addition of references, wanting language to sound"cool", maybe even plain not understanding how a scene ties with another because Remake was translated out of order. Stuff like that.

Also for some background I had friends who worked in dubbing and localization offices. The process for localization usually does just lead to lots of changes for many reasons. I think also experience level of the translators might play a role as well. Just saying it's definitely more complicated than it seems on the surface.

 

[abzy1200]

What country are you from, out of curiosity?

Ireland!

 

[Yoru]

I know of those examples as I have seen it discussed for a while. I do think the choices made can be very wierd. I just don't think the purpose is LTD related.

There are cases where they tone it down too. In Remake for example the Japanese reaction of Aerith's pink dress is more favorable he outright says he likes it and as I said in Rebirth when Aerith calls it a date in Japanese he doesn't say I wish you wouldn't but he's bad at it. Also he says "wait for me" to Aerith in the Forgotten Capital but in English it's just "I got this" stuff like that where it can already be read as romantic to fans of the ship are toned down in EN. Same with CT scenes there are things that sound more romantic in JP.
If the point was really to fuel a war removing stuff that would already sound romantic doesn't seem very logical to me.

Which just tells me that's probably not their intention. The first EN translation team interview also talked about preserving dialogue from OG. So I think their focuses was on references and call backs which they stuck in the EN in weird places. Like Aerith saying let's mosey on over.

Maybe they're just "bad" yeah.

They just have a weird direction and it's bugging me. It's more like making characters "sounding cool" above all else. I don't know.
And it's not even about romance or defending my ship. We can find changes in the story itself modifying entire character psychology. It's just weird.

I love the VA. The casting is just great. I've always favored Japanese when playing games or watching anime. But Cody is so good that he's practically become my Canon Cloud.

So with Remake and Rebirth I always play the games twice since I can't use my language subtitles with the English voices because the text is so different.

 

[abzy1200]

And it's not even about romance or defending my ship. We can find changes in the story itself modifying entire character psychology. It's just weird.

Yep, I think it's in Nibelheim that, in EN, Tifa says to Cloud "I guess we don't know each other that well", when she actually said something along the lines of "I want to get to know you better".

Those don't mean the same thing at all.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Maybe they're just "bad" yeah.

They just have a weird direction and it's bugging me. It's more like making characters "sounding cool" above all else. I don't know.
And it's not even about romance or defending my ship. We can find changes in the story itself modifying entire character psychology. It's just weird.

I love the VA. The casting is just great. I've always favored Japanese when playing games or watching anime. But Cody is so good that he's practically become my Canon Cloud.

So with Remake and Rebirth I always play the games twice since I can't use my language subtitles with the English voices because the text is so different.

I don't know if bad per say I have seen professional translators praise Remake's localization actually. But I definitely agree there are weird choices made in parts that can be questioned.

That being said localization in SE takes on a transcreation approach. You can find their views about it online as they do panels and stuff. Google The SquareEnix Approach To localization by Richard Honeywood. He's the guy who started the inhouse translation department in Shinjuku. You can find his whole history as well as he pioneered the idea and FVII OG's mistranslations was one of the sparks that caused this shift. The whole point being to get more creator feedback and work alongside them for a smoother translation. Transcreation is seen as a way to get a better quality translation because it's not restricted to the 1:1 translation approach letting changes happen that help express meaning better.

But transcreation is also a strategy that follows the philosophy that localization doesn't need to preserve the same exact meaning as long as the dialogue gives the same feelings as the original to the audience. And this is honestly a very common approach in localization. So in general, experts seem to be fine with it. It's mostly fans that catch the differences because we are more hyperfocused on the details. Because yes with this approach of transcreation the meaning is not the same.

Here is one source: Translation vs. localization vs. internationalization: what’s the difference? | LocalizeDirect

Also Koji Fox for example the expert behind FFXIV translation spoke in detail about how he used a lot of liberal transcreation for FFXVI and he was literally told to do so by the creator himself before convincing him to work together to translate. Because like it or not it is a more common approach than we would think. And ironically enough he is praised for his work. I'm a fan of his process myself.

Funny enough too Nomura is more traditional and has stated he values accuracy of intent in his Kingdom Hearts interviews so I don't think all of Rebirth uses this approach for everything either. Not every single line is different clearly but some parts do stand out which are obviously transcreated.

I have many more as I researched the topic extensively.

I definitely think besides trying to add words to match syllables something literally stated by th localization team in the behind the scenes of Rebirth videos...this strategy of using transcreation liberally plays a role. Also other companies definitely take this approach which is seen as a way to prioritize entertainment first and foremost. So yeah basically the priority is to sound cool. I just don't think they care at all about LTD as long as they sound cool.



I'm just the messenger but my friends who know more than me as they worked in the industry have basically said similar.

Edit: Added more examples because yeah this approach is a very common one and not just a ReTrilogy thing.

 

[Yoru]

I don't know if bad per say I have seen professional translators praise Remake's localization actually. But I definitely agree there are weird choices made in parts that can be questioned.

That being said localization in SE takes on a transcreation approach. You can find their views about it online they do panels and stuff. But transcreation is the philosophy that localization doesn't need to preserve the same exact meaning as long as the dialogue gives the same feelings as the original to the audience. And this is honestly a very common approach in localization. So in general, experts seem to be fine with it. It's mostly fans that catch the differences.

Here is one source: Translation vs. localization vs. internationalization: what’s the difference? | LocalizeDirect

I have many more as I researched the topic extensively.

I definitely think besides try to add words to match syllables this strategy of using transcreation liberally plays a role. Also other companies definitely take this approach which is seen as a way to prioritize entertainment first and foremost. So yeah basically the priority is to sound cool. I just don't think they care at all about LTD as long as they sound cool.

I'm just the messenger but my friends who know more than me as they worked in the industry have basically said similar.

Yes, that's pretty much it.

Friend of mine is working in this industry as well (and a certain Square Enix game if you see what i mean)

The main difference between Square Enix America and other languages (Spain/Italian/French/Germany) is that the north american branch use script editors. They're the same as "rewriters" in literature. More than translating, their task is to make the text "sounds good" and/or more appopriate to the american culture.

It's just that they really go a bit too deep sometimes...

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Yes, that's pretty much it.

Friend of mine is working in this industry as well (and a certain Square Enix game if you see what i mean)

The main difference between Square Enix America and other languages (Spain/Italian/French/Germany) is that the north american branch use script editors. They're the same as "rewriters" in literature. More than translating, their task is to make the text "sounds good" and/or more appopriate to the american culture.

It's just that they really go a bit too deep sometimes...

Basically exactly this. And this is very common in EN localization while other languages are usually more traditional in their approach. But the translation team for ReTrilogy is not SquareEnix America. All the main language translators are still part of the in-house translation department under SEJP and creditted as such. And they follow as I said the same procedures established by RichardHoneywood which do include transcreation which as I said favors changes more often than not.

And yes they go too deep sometimes. But I think the difference between that and like KojiFox who uses transcreation too and is highly praised for his work could be years of experience gives a better idea of when to transcreate and when not.

This also combined with minimizing the use of references everywhere. I wish they would do it way less. But I don't know how much of that is my preference as a non expert because as I said there are experts I have seen who don't see it as a big problem while it bothers me.

That's really cool. My friend worked in the distribution and QA office for a certain NISA franchise that gets flack for its localization due to similar issues.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Sorry to be bringing back NPTK (not that this alters any of the discourse as it stands around it, if anything it’s further affirmation of what we were told about its lyrics from Nojima himself)

“The official Japanese lyrics for the FF7 Rebirth song "No Promises to Keep" is a bit different than the official localization. Here is my translation of the Japanese lyrics, written by Nojima!

EN: I met you at that city
Where the sound of hurried footsteps rushed by
Even the clock ticked by quickly
Until yesterday.

I don’t want to believe in something like fate.
Meeting you, hey, what do they call it?
Chance?

I wish to see you tomorrow too
By chance, at that place
I want to believe
No promises needed.

Will I see you again tomorrow?
By chance, at that corner
Please let me believe
Don’t let go of my hand.

Please let me believe
Don’t let go of that hand.”

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1778318532717220053

Find it interesting that there are arguably even less direct references you could infer are about Cloud specifically in the official Japanese lyrics for NPTK

I get the sense the inner meaning of the song, and Aerith’s thoughts and feelings, as described by Nojima, are perhaps better conveyed in these lyrics.

Both versions are beautiful either way <3

 

[thetriplerhyme]

To them, I think Cloud and Tifa were always the endgame - right from the start Nomura himself explains to you that you can chose who to court, but there's no branching path, ie the Lifestream sequence is supposed to give you the answer to whom Cloud truly loves. But as you said it didn't matter in the end, it was a one shot, if people wanted to see CA, then why not.

cant agree more why people never accepted the ending or sayin ' multiple timelines' ~ FF7 is game and we're not MCU multiple timelines,, just like in OG there may have been different ways to get to ending but all comes down to one ending.

We see in CoT Cloud being that anchor that Tifa needs, but because it's a setup it means that things cannot be answered to in the novella itself. "On the Way to a Smile".... actually says a lot, it means it can't be sunshines there. What we don't necessarily see but the devs tell us (which is BAD), is that Cloud was happy. He was happier and happier and that lead him to being afraid of losing it all.

- the issue i have with COT is it was setup too much on Tifa's POV though we cannot see the point that Cloud's cherished his family soo much he's afraid of loosing it. But we see him 'seems happy' but drifted apart.. I wished there was more of Cloud's POV this time..

“The official Japanese lyrics for the FF7 Rebirth song "No Promises to Keep" is a bit different than the official localization. Here is my translation of the Japanese lyrics, written by Nojima!

I actually look into this one when @eleamaya said JP version is a bit different but loren allred sang it in English soo they must have approved it even if the translation isnt that accurate.. still its a love song for everyone. If we look at it again Aerith is singing it to everyone on team wishing

there's more time..
time she will never have..

 

[Stiggie]

I have not gotten there yet but I think it's just another example of how the vision of creators can greatly differ from visions of fans. I don't think they tried to ruin it, nor are mocking Aerith fans with it. they just wanted it to have the same impact of shock as in OG and thus changed it up. Probably for the worse I am sure as it's such a delicate scene to change and it's exactly what I was worried would happen. But let's see what they do with it.

Honestly, I just think the death scene was ruined because SE these days is afraid of restraint. They think that if a game doesn't end with killing a freaking god then that means it's a bad game.

That's why you fight the harbinger of fate, that's why you fight sephiroth reborn. Hell, that's why you fight sephiroth in both remake and rebirth, because se has lost all sense of what is and is not appropriate and wants to trade impact for scale, thinking its the same thing.

I believe they were deathly afraid of having a remake game without sephiroth, so he was forced in, and they're deathly afraid of having a remake game without aerith, which is why they made up all this bullshit to justify slathering her presence all over part 3.

 

[nars305]

Will I see you again tomorrow?
By chance, at that corner
Please let me believe
Don’t let go of my hand.

Please let me believe
Don’t let go of that hand.”

I’m not saying it is a reference to Zack, but my immediate thought in reading that last lyric made me remember when Aerith feels Zack hold her hand in the life stream. In that part where the Gi is taking the crew in the boat.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Basically exactly this. And this is very common in EN localization while other languages are usually more traditional in their approach. But the translation team for ReTrilogy is not SquareEnix America. All the main language translators are still part of the in-house translation department under SEJP and creditted as such. And they follow as I said the same procedures established by RichardHoneywood which do include transcreation which as I said favors changes more often than not.

And yes they go too deep sometimes. But I think the difference between that and like KojiFox who uses transcreation too and is highly praised for his work could be years of experience gives a better idea of when to transcreate and when not.

This also combined with minimizing the use of references everywhere. I wish they would do it way less. But I don't know how much of that is my preference as a non expert because as I said there are experts I have seen who don't see it as a big problem while it bothers me.

That's really cool. My friend worked in the distribution and QA office for a certain NISA franchise that gets flack for its localization due to similar issues.

Npetunia?
Then again what NISA translation hasn't been lambasted for its localization?

 

[Hellenic]

I (regrettably) just caught myself up with this.

At the end of the day this is a video game. It’s really not that serious. Imagine writing for a once in a lifetime game, a game that is being remade with love and care, putting your heart and soul into it just for people to be like “change _____ because we don’t like it” when the “it” in question is such a lovingly crafted sequence that is one of the favorites of the lead developers. How insulting is that? I’m so sick of this trend in general where art must bend for the feelings of others. Let creators create. Not everything should be made for everyone. If you don’t like something being expressed, it’s not hard to just… not consume it.

But I guess for those people now it’s that they don’t care if they win, they just want the other side to lose. But at that point are you really a fan anymore?

I have no doubt that part 3 will proceed as intended, Lifestream and Highwind included in all their glory and then some. But don’t these people get exhausted? I know I do. I just wanna talk about this video game that moved me, man.

I've never understood why people can't just move on and find something else to enjoy if a story direction goes in a way they don't desire, but no, for some reason they gotta stick around and spout all kinds of crap and attack people over it instead.

 

[Hellenic]

It was called さまよう亡霊 wandering ghost. Nothing to do with promise at all. And this is correctly translated in other languages as well

I like that naming more, though the english name does make sense with the context of the quest, but yeah a weird decision to call it so similar to the theme song.

 

[Rin]

Basically exactly this. And this is very common in EN localization while other languages are usually more traditional in their approach. But the translation team for ReTrilogy is not SquareEnix America. All the main language translators are still part of the in-house translation department under SEJP and creditted as such. And they follow as I said the same procedures established by RichardHoneywood which do include transcreation which as I said favors changes more often than not.

And yes they go too deep sometimes. But I think the difference between that and like KojiFox who uses transcreation too and is highly praised for his work could be years of experience gives a better idea of when to transcreate and when not.

This also combined with minimizing the use of references everywhere. I wish they would do it way less. But I don't know how much of that is my preference as a non expert because as I said there are experts I have seen who don't see it as a big problem while it bothers me.

That's really cool. My friend worked in the distribution and QA office for a certain NISA franchise that gets flack for its localization due to similar issues.

Just wanted to say "Thank you" for dispelling a lot of the rumours and falsehoods about how translation works at SE because it drives me up the wall to see the fans blame "SENA" for stuff they don't like when it has nothing to do with them at the end of the day. All SENA does is get the scripts into the hands of our talent and oversee the North American marketing materials in general. They're not responsible for how things get translated, and, at most, all they can do is facilitate a meeting between talent and translators to get things in a better spot if, say, John Eric Bentley (Barret) notices something racially insensitive/stereotypical that he thinks Barret shouldn't say.

But there's no one at SENA wringing their hands and twirling their moustache like an evil villain as they 'fuel the LTD' lol. That's just not happening. And at the end of the say, FF7 directors see the finished product in all languages. They have to sign off on it. The translators can't just do whatever they want and call it a day, it's a collaborative process that takes a lot of time and effort.

 

[Hellenic]

That's even more interesting. So yep it's just a reference. And I hope now people stop with the "EN translation is sooo bias" to either ship because to me it is very very clearly not. Any secret Clerith staff would have named that quest literally anything else because it would seem like it is trolling people who thought it was about Aerith or think of it as CA's song to reference something unrelated. And Nanaki of all characters.

There are parts they changed for CA too in EN like Cloud saying he'd wait for her is gone or he's bad at dates is changed to I wish you wouldn't, hey says it's your funeral when challenging her to Queensblood too not the most pro CA choice of words etc.

As well as stuff that is different for CT but then Midgar Blues in EN which is extremely pro CT referring to true love even was translated by very the same translators accused of being biased. And all this plus this reference just shows me they don't lean to any one side their changes probably have zero to do with LTD honestly.

I think though maybe they do maybe like to troll and put references everywhere.

Any way as an update I found the actual Aerith quest. Absence Of A Sign.

I've never had major issues with the EN script that a lot of CTs especially do seem to have, just because a little bit of nuance is not thrown at you at every instance, yet i still think the dialogue does get across what it's supposed to.

 

[Rin]

I've never had major issues with the EN script that a lot of CTs especially do seem to have, just because a little bit of nuance is not thrown at you at every instance, yet i still think the dialogue does get across what it's supposed to.

This is an important part of understanding localization vs transcreation (the latter of which SE uses for translating into EN).
Transcreation is about mimicking a feeling (in addition to the meaning). So, for example, the reason they changed Tifa's cats name from Maru to Fluffy in English is because 'Maru' is a stereotypical/generic name for a cat in Japan--quite literally like naming a cat 'Fluffy' in English. The generic aspect of the name wouldn't come across to us English speakers if they had just left it as 'Maru'.

 

[Stiggie]

I (regrettably) just caught myself up with this.

At the end of the day this is a video game. It’s really not that serious. Imagine writing for a once in a lifetime game, a game that is being remade with love and care, putting your heart and soul into it just for people to be like “change _____ because we don’t like it” when the “it” in question is such a lovingly crafted sequence that is one of the favorites of the lead developers. How insulting is that? I’m so sick of this trend in general where art must bend for the feelings of others. Let creators create. Not everything should be made for everyone. If you don’t like something being expressed, it’s not hard to just… not consume it.

But I guess for those people now it’s that they don’t care if they win, they just want the other side to lose. But at that point are you really a fan anymore?

I have no doubt that part 3 will proceed as intended, Lifestream and Highwind included in all their glory and then some. But don’t these people get exhausted? I know I do. I just wanna talk about this video game that moved me, man.

While I want to agree with this I do often find myself wondering if developers really feel that way about their games these days, or if it's just work. Because sometimes they make decisions that make me feel like the fans venerate their work a lot more than they themselves do. If we just stick with the "asking for them to change things" thing. No one ever asked for any change as invasive as inserting plot ghosts and fighting the manifestation of fate itself.
Usually those things are justified with stuff like "I wanted the player to experience something new" or something like that, which makes me feel that they themselves don't really value the timelessness of their product. I could be wrong and it could of course be argued that the experience is part of the game and that taking the audience into account and not "just the art" is part of what makes a game a game, but still. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I am doubtful that a person who is making something that they revere would do something like make Wedges every second line a fat joke.

...hmmm.... I was gonna say you wouldn't see Tolkien do something like that but I suppose the hobbits sort of prove me wrong....DAMNIT IT, still different though XD