SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

Just a question about The Kids are Alright, Marlene calls Cloud her "dad", yes?

I don't know why but I had trouble reading those few lines. I think I had a brain fart or something.

Yes. First I understood that as Barret tbh.... but then Cloud's answer right there would make no sense if she was talking about someone else than Cloud.

 

[abzy1200]

Another question, in regards to the "Do you love me?" scene, what is the best translation for it? I've seen so many different translations, and a certain one I've seen implies they share a bed much more than others I've seen.

Another one, I see Cleriths using an excerpt from somewhere saying that "Cloud realizes his feelings for Aerith." Where is that from? is it a mistranslation of sorts or is it out of context?

 

[Hellenic]

Also, just so you know, most Aerith dialogue isn't skippable. If you see someone claim that someone else skipped it, they're lying. The only one you can skip is the Under Junon one where it's Tifa's that's not skippable.

You can skip Aeriths in Costa. I tried it for science on my hard playthrough.

 

[Hellenic]

You can skip all the conversations on the beach. I did so on my initial run. You can skip either Aerith or Tifa in Nibelheim. Also you have to talk with them again to get their follow up scenes.

You are forced to watch Aeriths even if you go for Tifas in Nibel. You gotta see both the Zack scene and Aeriths tower scene to move forward there.

 

[Yoru]

The not skippable dialogues are the Kalm one (tutorial) the Gongaga one, the Cosmo Canyon one and the Nibel one. They're all Aerith specific.

So yeah, Clerith can't accuse Cloti to skip Aerith moments.

 

[Hellenic]

View attachment 16015

Wow. I would love to be rejected like that.

Bruh. I can't even. How can they want to be taken seriously with things like this ?

Looks like a major bait Youtube thumbnail.

 

[Yoru]

Looks like a major bait Youtube thumbnail.

I just checked the dude main page when someone posted his video here.

I can tell you it was not the worst one lmao.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

In the start bumper, he calmly pours tea. In the later bumber he grumpily slams the cup down in front of the viewer and sits down with his own.

Perfection.

Maybe she's the framing device and the stories are all recollections by everyone else of how they started settling down into a normal life.

Lots of monotone "This doesn't sound normal" followed by "It is around here"

In short, wacky hijinx ensue.

Some of the wackiest.

But how will he find someone woman enough for him?

Myrna can't be the only woman in all of history who can handle all that Barret. There's bound to be some strong independent lady working the oilfields.

Ironically what they've been accusing the C/T side of doing.

Every accusation is a confession. I swear I sometimes forget if I'm talking LTD or politics, and that is sad.

I wish I could say this was new behavior, but it's really not. A common source of frustration regarding oldschool Cleriths was double standards and complete inconsistencies. Sometimes it was so bad that one person was arguing contradictory points because she thought both of them favored Aerith.

At the worst of times, every post some Cleriths made was like this. Like, six contradictory "facts" per post bad.

So I got delayed from posting for a while by real life stuff. I see there were lots of good thoughts I'd love to respond to... but I'd already quoted this one.

 

[nars305]

Folks, in reality we don't even need to go that far into explanations to understand what's going on in Advent Children. Cloud is depressed, doubting himself and his ability to save anyone. We even see him afraid to try anything for fear of ruining everything.

And what happens when Tifa confronts him and asks him to go and save the children?

Cloud overcomes his doubts and hits the road immediately. Not exactly the reaction of someone who doesn't care about Tifa, if you ask me.

Just the fact that he's doing something "he doesn't want to do" shows how important Tifa is to him.

It's as if the character had been written in response to Tifa's expectations... OH wait !

It’s always Tifa.

 

[nars305]

Yes. First I understood that as Barret tbh.... but then Cloud's answer right there would make no sense if she was talking about someone else than Cloud.

I was confused by this part too. I mean Barret is there in Edge since the battle just ended. But Cloud’s response confused me, and they didn’t mention the character like looking at Barret or mention him.

I did get to see this tweet as I tried to look up the excerpt:

“because marlene never calls cloud daddy. the devs never say cloud is her daddy. you just hate barret and use HIS daughter as a pawn in your cIoti delusions. get over it. marlene ships clerith AND she doesnt and never will view cloud as her "dad".”

 

[Stiggie]

Which is such a strange thing to use…for what exactly? They want to prove that Cloud doesn’t love Tifa or that they don’t work out?

It’s like…this is in the novel BEFORE the events of AC, where we see Cloud overcome his problems…and who pushes him to face his problems? Oh right, it’s Tifa. Pretty sure we see them remain together after that…on what we can believe are better terms since Cloud has forgiven himself.

I just can’t really understand that like of thinking.

What I don't get is why they pretend to not understand the concept of sleeping.

"CLOUD DIDN'T ANSWER A QUESTION ASKED WHILE HE WAS ASLEEP!!!!!, THAT MEANS HE DOESN'T LOVE HER!!!!!"

 

[Yoru]

marlene ships clerith

Are we talking about the Marlene begging Cloud to come home ? You know the place where she lives with Denzel AND Tifa. But yeah she must ships Clerith, a woman she saw once and who died short after.

"By the way, Marlene is a mini Tifa. She grew up with her and learned a lot from her. And she'll always remember that Aerith saved her. So yes, she's sort of a representation of both." a dude named Nomura.

I wonder how much he knows about Final Fantasy VII.

 

[liuliuliu]

I saw a lot of people assume Cloud is a light sleeper…but given the fact that Cloud is the last one wakes up in Kalm, I think he is a heavy sleeper…Barret and Red might just do a YT “get ready with me” video and he will be still asleep.

 

[GamerSkull]

I'm convinced some of these people are only fans in the sense that they like the ship and could care less about the rest of FF7 story/lore.

I'm also convinced they truly don't understand Cloud's character.

For Cloud to carry on the way he has and still be pining after Aerith makes him a scumbag.

He can still pine after Aerith if he wants but the motherfucker needs to stay away from Tifa and let her go.

 

[Yoru]

He can still pine after Aerith if he wants but the motherfucker needs to stay away from Tifa and let her go.

My poor girl paid for his bike and she's even working for free as a secretary, taking order calls for his new established company.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

You know, that argument really just boggles the mind because I've lived with roommates, and I've lived with a romantic partner. You know who never asked me if I loved them? The roommates. You know who still asks me sometimes? The wife.

- Nojima's way of writing ~ I mean how can people not think they're not a couple when Cloud when back to sleep with Tifa in the room, if she's just a 'friend' didnt he supposed to make sure she's out of the room before getting back to sleep?

"CLOUD DIDN'T ANSWER A QUESTION ASKED WHILE HE WAS ASLEEP!!!!!, THAT MEANS HE DOESN'T LOVE HER!!!!!"

He immediately woke up upon hearing Tifa's doubts and said "i just dont know how to approach her.." he didnt answer her when she directly ask 'same with you and I?" because we're seeing it on Tifa's POV and plus this is another symbolism that Cloud's driting away.

its difficult to see #cloti angst but in COT - Cloud's drifting away to Tifa is like drifting away to his true self again. ( metaphor) devs need to establish this because in lifestream black and white sephiroth is making it way to return. So Cloud closing his heart to everyone including Tifa is a dark turn.

- and even in this scenario if Aerith is indeed in Cloud's heart doesnt she have access to it right now? I mean it will be visible more.. because she's in Lifestream now and can communicate with him. ---> ANSWER: BECAUSE SHE CAN'T Cloud cannot see her or hear her unless Tifa talks to her in ACC "is it a memory or us?'

Tifa is again the only one who can access his heart even if he closed it to everyone else.

 

[abzy1200]

My poor girl paid for his bike and she's even working for free as a secretary, taking order calls for his new established company.

She even opened an orphanage apparently!

What an amazing woman, running an orphanage, a bar, and working as a secretary for his business, all while raising children of her own

and most of all; as Cloud's longtime friend lmao.

I actually might start crying soon.

 

[GamerSkull]

My poor girl paid for his bike and she's even working for free as a secretary, taking order calls for his new established company.

Yup, Cloud really needs to stop leeching off his friend and just kill himself already. That would solve all of his problems.

Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm not being serious. I'm just a bit frustrated that these people can unintentionally accept Cloud to be like this.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

They were arguing that "even though they were cloti", that Cloud absolutely hated tifa and that that's why he treated her as such in AC. That he was miserable with tifa and would have been happy had she died. More nonsense like that.
This argument went on for over 200 replies, I brought up quotes, examples, everything. I sketched complex hypotheticals to try and guide them step by step to why someone might act in such a way, asking them for agreement on every step. But they were so intellectually bankrupt that they wouldn't even engage with the hypothetical since when I asked to to admit to a single point they'd respond with. "No, because I think what you're actually trying to get me to do is admit that Cloud doesn't hate Tifa, but I already showed you he does, my evidence is AC".

It was this encounter that finally convinced me that clerith was an actual cult. I have never seen a more perfect example of intellectual fanaticism. An explicit unwillingness to engage in hypotheticals or to think because doing either of those things may lead to a conclusion you don't want to admit. It was hell.

I actually responded to a very similar argument on Youtube under a Cloud and Tifa in AC video. It was the same argument. In 2020. I still remember it. I told them their take made no sense because Cloud cherishes everything so of course he cared about Tifa. Went on for quite a few replies. There was one other person a anti Tifa in the same thread telling them not to listen to me and accusing me of being a Cloti and I told them no "I just think it's stupid to say Cloud hates Tifa, not even sees her as a friend but hates? Where did this even come from?"
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Afterwards I butted heads with that specific Tifa anti again in other YTthreads. They were just kind of everywhere. And then they hopped on twitter "to warn other CAs about me" as clearly I was a Cloti in disguise and not someone with a different view or anything. Anyway I saw it because duh, I'm a CA and I made the mistake of confronting them about lying about me and got chainblocked by like half the CAfandom at that time because they accused me of stalking their account. Fun times lol. People STILL think I'm a Cloti because of that user who I don't even think is in the fandom anymore but thanks a lot lol.
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Anyway in the end I found out the person who started the YouTube thread saying Cloud hates Tifa was literally a 12 year old kid and they were quoting from anti Tifa blogs. They apologized to me and I apologized for getting heated at a child who until that point I thought was just another Tifa anti. I remember they said they liked my blog which I had linked with Ultimania quotes. And they apparently liked CT now and were thanking me for informing them Cloud doesn't hate Tifa and their sources were bad. Or so that was their last comment to me.
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I really wonder if this is the same one you saw or if they both were just reading the same source? I just had deja vu reading your post tho bc those YouTube comments were what convinced people I was a CT in disguise or something. And it was just very similar takes.

It's also what started it all in terms of me talking about AC on my blog after that whole thing basically lol.

 

[Yoru]

I did get to see this tweet as I tried to look up the excerpt:

It reminds me of when I'm looking for a passage from Ultimanias and I come across photos on tumblr with someone who has translated the passages that speak of Aerith as the love of his life... and then when you translate the Japanese text directly, which is still visible on the photo... it says something totally different lmao.

I think you know what the tumblr topic was about

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Apropos of nothing, I wanted to report a fun bit of LTD-discourse shared by some pretty well-known journalists in the games industry.

The podcast Triple Click is hosted by Jason Schreier, Maddy Myers and Kirk Hamilton. I believe they all worked together at Kotaku once upon a time. Jason writes for Bloomberg now and has published two books about games development that some of you might be familiar with. Maddy Myers is an editor at Polygon and Kirk focuses on his music and music podcast (Strong Songs) these days.

Triple Click has been going for a few years now within the Maximum Fun Co-Op. If you want to listen to the podcast you should be able to find it on most of your standard podcast platforms (Spotify; the Apple Podcasts app). I believe its roots lie in an earlier podcast the trio did at Kotaku. I listen to Triple Click every now and then, mainly when they cover a game I’m interested in. They were very positive on Remake back in 2020, but they were quite lukewarm on XVI when it released last year. They’ve been quite positive on Rebirth too - so much so that they’ve done 3 podcast episodes on it. The first two are free to the public and the final, spoiler one is behind the Maximum Fun paywall.

“Dr Crane - what on earth does this have to do with the LTD?” I hear you ask

I’m getting to the point. I promise.

So Jason, Maddy and Kirk are all pretty accomplished, down-to-earth people that I would not have previously described as “afflicted with LTD brainrot”. Nevertheless, they are nerdier than your average person (they have all written about video games for a living - and that’s not a bad thing!) and I believe they are of the precise age cohort that would have been besotted with FFVII when it first came out in 1997. Jason in fact is really into JRPGs - so much so that for multiple years he has strong-armed Maddy and Kirk into playing a few JRPG classics that neither had previously touched (FFVI; Suikoden 2).

So imagine my surprise when the LTD suddenly emerged as a topic of discussion during episode 2 of Triple Click’s Rebirth coverage! Not only did they discuss it, but both Maddy and Kirk got quite passionate about it! Usually journalists dance around the LTD and their preference for one side or the other, but here in the parameters of an easy-listening podcast we suddenly had fiery, but good-spirited debate.

Now I’m going to paraphrase and misremember bits from episode 2 but this was the gist of it:

• Kirk prefers Cloud and Tifa and relates it to his real-life experience of having loved and married a girl from his hometown
• Maddy prefers Aerith and Cloud and reflects that she is married to a woman that is more akin to Aerith in personality
• Hilariously, even though Jason is the big JRPG guy, he couldn’t remember who he took on the date (although I believe he later clarified he was talking about the first date in Chapter 8)
• At the time of episode 2, Kirk believed the game leaned in favour of Cloti while Maddy believed the game leaned in favour of Clerith

Now, here’s where things get interesting. I finally got around to listening to their final, spoilers episode where they discuss the ending and their thoughts of the game. Once again, it’s behind a paywall, but I will summarise the LTD points:

• Kirk got Barret as the final date but wanted to get Tifa; nevertheless he thought Barret was encouraging Cloud to confess specifically to Tifa during their talk
• Maddy and Jason both got Aerith as the final date - however, Maddy had come around since episode 2 and was now agreeing with Kirk’s perspective that the game appeared to favour Cloud and Tifa as a couple
• Maddy agreed that Barret was likely talking about Tifa, and agreed with Kirk that the game had distinguished Cloud and Tifa as a romantic pair by giving them a kiss during their date (if high affection is achieved, of course)
• Jason humorously continued to be fairly un-fussed about the topic of romance and the LTD, but did add that he was unsurprised about the kiss between Cloud and Tifa as he believed the original game was very un-subtle about the two having sex

I had wanted to post previously about the curiosity of having listened to Triple Click’s second Rebirth episode and hearing LTD discussion suddenly derail Triple Click’s typical harmony. But now having listened to their final spoiler episode, I couldn’t resist any longer.

So here are my key takeaways:

1. I think many people who are into Final Fantasy VII have a strong opinion about the love triangle, whether they want to admit it or not
2. I think many, more flexible observers, can admit that the Remake trilogy is being more clear and specific about who loves who in this story
3. As has been discussed in the past, observers of the love triangle debate often bring their own preferences and beliefs about love and relationships and this informs which side of the triangle they prefer

It was a lot of fun to hear more casual observers of the LTD share their thoughts on it, as while there’s certainly plenty of streamers sharing their views on this topic these days, I hadn’t heard the LTD discussed on what is a pretty premium podcast format before. If anyone else has heard the LTD pop up on other podcasts or discussions, I’d love to hear about it!

 

[nars305]

Are we talking about the Marlene begging Cloud to come home ? You know the place where she lives with Denzel AND Tifa. But yeah she must ships Clerith, a woman she saw once and who died short after.

"By the way, Marlene is a mini Tifa. She grew up with her and learned a lot from her. And she'll always remember that Aerith saved her. So yes, she's sort of a representation of both." a dude named Nomura.

I wonder how much he knows about Final Fantasy VII.

I just had to say the Cloud shrugging image is my favorite thing ever LOL. Whenever I watched OG play through bits and saw it, it always made me chuckle.



Obviously I’ve stolen it YOINK

 

[Eerie]

Yeah I know a lot of "neutrals" deny it, but FFVII has a pretty strong romance streak and it's bound to affect how we, as players, view it. The narrative is strongly attached to it, Cloud being in love with Tifa being the core of his character and his actions - it affects the whole story. With Rebirth it's even more pronounced, with Sephiroth trying to break their bond.

But all in all this is also why the LTD has been going on for so long - at the end of the day, it shows your thoughts about the game and how much you're able to take from it. What's the reality, what's the truth indeed? Many players get blinded, it's very hard to see through as long as you haven't played at least once until you get to the twist of the story. And many players don't want to let go of the fantasy that was sold to them in the first disc, may they be shippers or not. Only in FFVII a man and a woman who love each other, have realised their feelings in a super intimate setting, have confirmed them without words, have rebuilt a bar, live together with two kids in a new found family, share finances, are being described in terms of marriage by the writer himself... are considered as friends and not lovers.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I find the topic of non LTD people weighing in interesting because in real life I have friends with many different perspectives:

My husband is prefers Tifa and sees Cloti as obvious. He never played OG until I made him before Remake lol. But he didn't like it and stopped at Midgar. He likes Remake and Rebirth. Was annoyed by Aerith at first but now likes her now. He was annoyed by Jessie and still is eh towards her.
He still prefers Tifa and sees her as endgame.
He doesn't care about LTD and thinks it's weird but supports my passion lol.

Then all my friends who have played FF7 also love Aerith. I don't think any of them don't like any girl. They like them all. Several of them even prefer Aerith for romance too. None hate Tifa.

One of them is a Clerith and only accepts Clerith canon.

The rest don't care at all about LTD. They don't know what the heck I'm talking about in terms of canon or not or Ultimanias lol. Some are going for the Tifa date. Some are going for the Aerith date. It doesn't go deeper than that for most of them and some think Cloud has feelings for both, some just to Aerith and some just to Tifa. It's very mixed. They also all like Zack for the most part..

One of my closest friends is a Zerith main lol. She likes Tifa and accepts Cloti as canon but is there for Zerith.

My brother loves Aerith, Tifa and Jessie and prefers Jessie for him, as in she is his type. But he calls Cloud and Tifa "super obvious". He however thinks Cloud made the Lifestream shenanigans because of his guilt for Aerith's death. He accepts Zerith canon but also doesn't care about LTD and thinks I'm "crazy for being involved in internet fights".

Yep lol.

It's funny how to true it is that even non LTDers have their opinions.

 

[GamerSkull]

I think I tend to agree, I think all players have a pretty strong stance about the LTD but a lot of them either don't want to admit or just don't want to put it out there because they don't want to argue with people.

Even those that say "it's optional" or "it's a very minor part" probably do still lean quite heavily in one direction. Whether they are leaning in that direction because preference or because there is evidence of canonicity matters little.

I think this is why a lot of them try to avoid the LTD. Because it consists of either grasping at straws in order to change the other side's mind or talking to a wall that will never change their mind out of sheer stubbornness, regardless of evidence.