ChaosandConfusion
Pro Adventurer
Does anyone here think it could be both girls in the romantic sense?
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
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Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
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- Rye
It's interesting that extreme fans of either ship hate the other girl and project that hate on Cloud.
I don't personally see it but I know that others here think it's both girls to various degrees.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I personally don't think so.
Let me explain from a writing perspective. You have two girls, one has still feelings for her dead lover (her perfect match), saves the Planet, ends up with her dead lover (who also happens to be the MC best friend). The other has loved the MC for 7 years already, crushed on him before that, and saves him.
Now tell me, if your MC loves both, don't you feel that one girl gets screwed, that the MC himself gets screwed feeling awful since for a time his best friend's girl thought she had romantic feelings for him?
We are talking from a writing perspective, knowing Cloud and Tifa get together, why would Tifa have to accept that Cloud doesn't love her fully but that he also has feelings for Aerith? Why should she share when Aerith is perfectly fine with her perfect boyfriend? I'm sorry but as I said earlier, I don't think the devs want to ever hear again a woman telling them they feel sorry for Tifa. Because yes in this case the situation would be extra shitty for her and the developpers have more respect for these characters than this.
Yoru
Pro Adventurer
Like my comrades above
I don't think that's the case. The OG was more ambiguous by design. Aerith was a red herring and designed as such. They wanted her death to be as shocking as possible. The emphasis on Cloud's mental state and its resolution in remembering his feelings for Tifa was the moment the game told me that Cloud only loved one woman and that if you thought he loved Aerith romantically, it wasn't real, because it wasn't really him talking. I know this will upset some people, but that's how I felt when I first played the game.
A feeling that the new projects have only reinforced. And for me, Rebirth is the one that definitely confirmed it. Cloud only has romantic feelings for one woman in his life.
ChaosandConfusion
Pro Adventurer
I agree with you. I went on ff7 twt (BIG NO NO) and a lot of neutrals were saying both. But to add on to what you're saying, Tifa seems like the type of character if she knew there were feelings between both of them she would shut Cloud's pursuit of her down.
LunarTarotGirl
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- Lunarae
I used to. Until Remake's second half and now Rebirth.
I saw a shift in how they were developing him and Aerith's story and it's basically with Her not being sure she likes Him in that sense. And him completely oblivious to her feelings in the first place. Then him finding out about Zack being Aerith's boyfriend who in his eyes she still is head over heels for he needs to tell her what happened to him. This way the devs don't have to say anything about Cloud's feelings. He remains oblivious because he now has no reason to entertain Aerith having feelings for him.
I definitely think before Remake though you can make the case. Like in OG? We can argue both girls were people he was interested in. I don't believe in OG there was no romantic implications there. But because Aerith dies they never needed to be explored. Cloud is also canonically oblivious to her feelings there too. Their feelings toward eachother could just remain ambiguous and it didn't affect the story. I definitely saw it as non platonic and still don't think it's anything but non platonic. But things are now more defined.
And over time the developers had to chose a lane and made things less ambiguous especially with Crisis Core and Advent Children Complete pushed Zerith because they didn't want the audience to think Cloud was some jerk using Tifa and leaving her in AC.
Remake then has Aerith knowing the future of CT and cheering them on. She is very obviously not interested in pursuing Cloud as she was in OG. Then Rebirth has her lose those future memories and get conflicted with her feelings and kind of pursuing Cloud while he thinks the entire time she has feelings for Zack and he learns of Tifa's feelings early on and reciprocates.
While Aerith confesses she isn't sure what she feels. To me that's the devs completely closing any window of Cloud entertaining the thought of Aerith into him or him thinking he should be interested in her. Now why would they need to make their protagonist think about a romance he is A. Oblivious to. B. Not entertaining because he thinks she loves someone else. C. Not thinking about because He loves someone else D. SHE isn't even sure about now. What would be the point of putting romance between them in this scenario?
Since these are not the cases in OG I treat them separately and entertain the idea their could have been something there but with all this new context the Lifestream scene with Tifa especially this time around brings his feelings for Tifa up in a way that something with Aerith becomes pointless to explore. Especially with the final nail being Aerith herself unsure if he even likes him romantically. There is now zero reason to have these characters explore feelings for eachother from both their perspectives. It now does not matter if Cloud feels romantically toward her or not if Aerith herself now has no reason to entertain thoughts of future romance with Cloud. They basically made it so now neither character has reason to pursue the other from this point onward.
Then they are building up Zack and his feelings for Aerith and they're making Cloud basically have romance moments earlier on with Tifa showing him reciprocating etc and well almost kissing her in Gongaga even seperate from kissing her on the date.
So now that entire ambiguous idea of CA romance even if brought up as fanservice hints can now be completely ignored by the story in the end. To make him fall in love with in Aerith After all that?? I don't think they would. And now I'm convinced they won't.
Especially now that they have set all their story up to reunite with another person that isn't eachother. Could Pt3 prove me wrong? We will see. But I don't think so.
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And edit: And I'm a Clerith and I wish that the above was not my thoughts on this matter. If anyone thinks this is the way I had imagined or wanted things to go with Even Aerith being unsure of her feelings?? It's definitely not the case. I didn't ask for that. And I don't like it, no. I would have preferred OG scenario to remain untouched or even unrequited love with her accepting her own feelings honestly but knowing what she felt.
But I write this because that's honestly what I see them doing. And basically I see it as IF the endgame payoff is mutual romance for eachother it's pretty much the worst idea to put Aerith asking herself Edit the extent of her feelings right before her farewell as "knowing where they stand" and while having another guy she said she might still have feelings wait for her return even in another world. To me that's the way they got out of having to explore the issue of romance further honestly.
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Yoru
Pro Adventurer
To be honest, I've always found it very unhealthy to romanticize this relationship when we're talking about a character with complex mental problems. And I think that's not an interpretation. Cloud before Mideel is in pieces. He hears voices, has visions, has forgotten 5 years of his life. He speaks and behaves physically like a completely different person. I think the game easily shows that something is wrong with him.
Everyone is free to feel differently, and I'm not saying you are weirdos or anything. Not at all. But as far as I'm concerned, it's always been a drag to get used to the idea that Aerith and Cloud are something concrete from a romantic standpoint. He was incapable of showing any feeling at that point in his life anyway.
The Final Fantasy Remake project is supposed to be the "ultimate" vision of the universe. And I think they're pretty clear when they talk about the characters' feelings. And I think I prefer it that way. Aerith has managed to earn a special place in Cloud's heart. Someone he cares about and is willing to risk his own life for. You don't have to be in love to love someone.
FF7 was first and foremost a game for teenagers. Now they can afford to go much deeper into things and the characters' relationships. And for me, that's the best thing they've done with this project. I've never loved these characters as much as I do now. They no longer just have functions, but real motivations, internal conflicts and so on.
Everyone is free to feel differently, and I'm not saying you are weirdos or anything. Not at all. But as far as I'm concerned, it's always been a drag to get used to the idea that Aerith and Cloud are something concrete from a romantic standpoint. He was incapable of showing any feeling at that point in his life anyway.
The Final Fantasy Remake project is supposed to be the "ultimate" vision of the universe. And I think they're pretty clear when they talk about the characters' feelings. And I think I prefer it that way. Aerith has managed to earn a special place in Cloud's heart. Someone he cares about and is willing to risk his own life for. You don't have to be in love to love someone.
FF7 was first and foremost a game for teenagers. Now they can afford to go much deeper into things and the characters' relationships. And for me, that's the best thing they've done with this project. I've never loved these characters as much as I do now. They no longer just have functions, but real motivations, internal conflicts and so on.
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
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- Rye
To elaborate on my own answer for a bit: I can see it in the OG since the game does give leeway to play it that Cloud/player is at least interested in Aerith. And then all the famous plot twists happen and everybody involved learns that Tifa lives in Cloud's heart and mind rent-free 24/7, lol.
But I can't see it in Re-Trilogy at all. Also, everything Eerie said, lol.
But I can't see it in Re-Trilogy at all. Also, everything Eerie said, lol.
Maidenofwar
They/Them
See ... to me it's not as big as a deal, to me it's more like I'm crushing on you, but could it be more than that, which to me is still romantic.
There's also entirely no point in "please don't fall in love with me even if you think you have it's not real/"don't I get a say in this" if he didn't/hasn't not even a little, that just makes Aerith's character look bad for no reason then.
There's also entirely no point in "please don't fall in love with me even if you think you have it's not real/"don't I get a say in this" if he didn't/hasn't not even a little, that just makes Aerith's character look bad for no reason then.
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Eerie
Fire and Blood
I think we should not forget that when Nojima wrote that, they didn't know if they were going to push it beyond Midgar. So it's him explaining two things:
- if (you as the player) Cloud thinks he has romantic feelings for Aerith, he's wrong because they don't exist, they are just an illusion; so even if you interpret this as romance, she is telling you that it's not;
- she's talking to herself: these feelings she thinks she has for Cloud are an illusion too because it's Zack she sees in him: the church scene in Rebirth is a reminder of that.
Cloud's answer is not an affirmative that he has feelings for her, I mean he doesn't understand what she's talking about because she's talking about a "sometimes in the future"; what he says on the other hand is what he's affirmed a lot during Remake and Rebirth, which is "don't decide anything for me, I make my own decisions".
Yoru
Pro Adventurer
We know with Ultimania, she's talking to herself, too... which fits pretty well with what we see in Rebirth with everything surrounding Zack and Aerith's conflicted feelings. So I don't think it makes her look bad. On the contrary, it shows just how much of a good head on her shoulders this Lifestream Aerith has. She knows very well that it's not Cloud she's talking to right now. Not really.
That's the whole point of the "it's not real" thing. It's a message meant for both of them. She's still looking for Zack in him. And Cloud is in no way capable of having real feelings at this point in the story. And I'd say the same for Tifa if she tried to confess to him. Cloud can't answer any of them right now. That would be taking advantage of someone sick. Literally.
Edit : And I'm not saying the girls can't act. It's us, the players, who really know what's happening to Cloud. What I am saying is that, at this stage of the story, Cloud is the most unreliable narrator there is, and we can't totally trust what he says or feels.
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LunarTarotGirl
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- Lunarae
Yeah I am not saying I see Aerith's feelings as platonic or their relationship as entirely platonic. I see it as that way too as she has a crush which is romantic.
But then I feel they gave themselves an out here.
They now don't further Have to develop Aerith's feelings on this. Because Aerith who now has to focus on her Lifestream stuff anyway be way less inclined to explore these feelings from this point forward if she "know where they stand" and if she isn't sure it's more than that.
There is way less motivation for her to further explore these feelings.
So they now really could just leave it at that tie it up in a little bow and never address it again because of how they set this up. I can't say I like that but it's how I see it.
While I feel with OG Aerith's feelings they left it open but if you read the novel Lifestream White Aerith is sure with no hesitation that she loved Cloud in some way.
Here not so much. It feels like yeah "maybe it could be love but then maybe not, maybe it's just a crush, I wonder which." And I don't like that.
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Yoru
Pro Adventurer
We're going round in circles and repeating ourselves, but it doesn't matter*. Again, I think the message in the church is pretty clear. Yes, she loves Cloud. She wants to spend time with him. She wants him in her life. But it's not carnal love. And that's what this final date, this last chance she's given herself to bring her feelings to light, has just proved to her.
People tend to forget that Aerith knows nothing about life. And that's exactly the point of her journey, her adventure. And that's what makes her death so sad, because she didn't have time to see it all.
The only intimate moments she knew were with her two mothers. And then Zack fell into her life (get it?) before disappearing without warning.
And just as she chooses to move on (last letter sent to Zack) a blond man appears in front of her. With the same sword as her first love. The same profession. And even certain ways of acting. Naturally, she's confused and tries to find out more.
The more time she spends with him, the more she begins to sense that there's someone different behind that heavy shell.
And it's at this point that she chooses to confront her feelings with this reality, and then this final date takes place.
So yes, in my opinion, things are pretty clear, and I don't think it's fair to imply that they've left things hanging.
She compared the two love she felt in her life and decided it was not the same. "There's liking and liking"
Edit *It's not a reproach, I'm just sorry to repeat what I've already written here
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nars305
🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
If I ever say “they” as in the other side I am only talking about the more toxic people. I know there’s toxicity on both sides, and I don’t know why the Cloti folks feel the need to be toxic when the remake is painting a good picture for them.
(I feel too new to all of this to call myself a Cloti, and feel like I’m just arguing the narrative…)
I used to before Rebirth. I’ve said a few times that Remake I was pretty indifferent about the romance. Rebirth is what made me see what is going on with Tifa and Cloud. Then you read the novels and it’s like oh, it’s not really a debate…
I can understand people coming to the Cloud and Aerith conclusion. It’s just that as far as I see, it is not in the narrative as far as the remake goes and the novels. I understand there may be a screenshot somewhere in some ultimania that puts a fire under the LTD, but there is just too much on the Cloud and Tifa side to make me think it was both girls.
Even now in the game I’m still seeing things that point me to the Cloud and Tifa direction. Things that they didn’t need to put in, but chose to in order to show where Cloud stands in both relationships.
LunarTarotGirl
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I didn't say it is unclear at all or left things hanging. She loves him that's clear but it's still a very indirect round about way (wishy washy even)of expressing her feelings because she says "I wonder what kind of like is this". This is not a confirmation that she is 100% sure her feelings are romantic nor platonic it's a confirmation that it's different from her feelings for Zack and beyond that there is feelings because she likes him but she is fine leaving it at that because there is a difference between liking (romantic love) and a crush and just enjoying someone's company. Then she accepts things as they are and they really can just leave it at that.
It just feels like less conviction than the novel straight out saying "for she had loved him and koibito does mean she saw him romantically. It wasn't any question about that. It had full conviction. Now we have "I wonder what kind of like this is" in JP and "there's a difference between liking and liking." Slightly better in EN but still feels wishy washy. It's not that it's unclear or left hanging as I basically said it closes the door for her to even go further.
Edit: But it definitely doesn't have the same amount of conviction and sounds like she still isn't sure she has a crush or more.
I would have been fine with just unrequited feelings she kept to herself or her straight up saying I love our friendship or something vs. "I wonder what kind of like this is". I am not saying it's somehow unclear I'm saying I really don't like it.
Edit: clarification on something I misunderstood different like is not between platonic and romantic but between two types of romantic love koi and re'nai.
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Yoru
Pro Adventurer
I just think it's for story telling reasons and when Zack is back in the picture for Part III, her decision and understandement will be clear for all the poeple involved.
We'll see.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I think they are true in what they say when they claim they want Part 3 to end with without “unresolved feelings.”
To that end, as far as Aerith is concerned, they are planting the seeds for Zerith endgame. Ending with those two, while Aerith still feels unrequited love towards Cloud is not really fair to Zack… or even Aerith for that matter.
And considering she never met the real Cloud while she was alive and was only just starting to give him a chance right before she died, it stands to reason her love for Zack has still not been overtaken. Particularly because up until the Gondola, she was still very much attracted to the Zack in him.
To that end, as far as Aerith is concerned, they are planting the seeds for Zerith endgame. Ending with those two, while Aerith still feels unrequited love towards Cloud is not really fair to Zack… or even Aerith for that matter.
And considering she never met the real Cloud while she was alive and was only just starting to give him a chance right before she died, it stands to reason her love for Zack has still not been overtaken. Particularly because up until the Gondola, she was still very much attracted to the Zack in him.
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overheat28
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I uh think this tweet from a few days ago is particularly relevant to the discussion of discrepancies within the Compilation regarding any conflicted feelings the characters have.
They are basically on a warpath and are putting everyone on notice. I'm here for it. Raze this blasted LTD to the ground.
LunarTarotGirl
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Yeah I think it will eventually make more sense. For the record I'm not like upset or saying this to bash the writing. I do see it as set up for the next game.
I am just not impressed with how wishy washy it comes across versus what they had already established as I said as Aerith is not round about she is very forthright. And nothing wrong with a person having unrequited romantic love that they are aware of and accepting that. I would have been all for it. But they as I said gave themselves an out with even her having doubts to the nature of her feelings.
And as MaidenofWar mentioned yeah I know it's not real is part of Cloud's identity crisis and her realizing his connection to Zack but then it doesn't actually feel necessary to have her figure that out for one whole arc. And to imply Cloud could have or she could have romantic feelings but the situation makes it not real because of his identity crisis.And she is telling herself not to fall in love to then go "I wonder what kind of like this is"it feels just so....lacking? What happened to warning yourself to not fall in love when now you're not even sure if it's a crush, girl. It does feel wishy washy. And It doesn't feel like it's worth it to make that an entire character arc either. So I do want to see how pt. 3 adresses that if they even address it.
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Yoru
Pro Adventurer
Don't forget Remake Aerith =/= Rebirth Aerith.
I'm still waiting to see in part III if it was really interesting to erase her memory or if it was just a poor setup to allow Aerith to live her adventure a little naively and without any consideration of the planet's will. A sort of "go girl enjoy your journey and your youth" kind of things.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I tend to think this Aerith is COLW Aerith exactly because of this quote tbh; my theory on this place is that it's COLW!Aerith dreams and hope world, her Promise Land. She dreams that she can meet Cloud again and so, that happens because it is her PL. However in the church scene, she realises that her feelings may not be that deep. Also did she die against Sephiroth or teleport? We don't know but if we go by all the worlds being destroyed then she probably did die (or join consciousness with our Aerith when she died).
Comes in Zack falling in the last church - which is NOT Remake's church as it has benches: it's CC's church, and Zack falls inside of it. I believe it's "our" Aerith's PL, because this is where she got her sweetest memories, because this place is the place where she and Zack spent time and have lots of memories together. She still has a little progress to make before she can step in her own PL, but I think we'll see it and we'll see her reunion with Zack.
So basically Aerith has to go through Cloud to find Zack again.
Yes, to me the church scene is the setting for the ZA reunion; it can only happen when she understands that her feelings for Cloud are different than those she still has for Zack. She has to recontextualise what happens.
Also, this thread about Cloud's answer is super interesting:
Yes it was obvious in Remake, even way more so in Rebirth and p3 will be the definitive version.
I always thought so since Remake where Nojima stated that little would be left to imagination. It was him warning everyone that he'd be out killing bad theories, may they be about the LT or about the rest of the game.
She forgot about it tbh so I don't hold it against her. It wasn't even her in the first place since it was a dead Aerith... but yes it's the warning that even her feelings are an illusion. I've said it quite a few times now but both girls see the guy they love in Cloud: Aerith sees Zack because of the illusion, Tifa sees Cloud through the illusion.
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Hellenic
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That person got one hell of a character development arc. Now if only everyone could get one then we wouldn't need to have these pointless "wars" anymore.
Gotta also love that everyone who disagrees with anything is Cloti by default, as if there only existed Clotis and Cleriths and nothing else. You reminded me of a certain Jessie enjoyer who blames anyone who disagrees with their view that Jessie should be more than a side character and that they should get as important of a role as Tifa and Aerith does a rabid Cloti.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
That’s tribalism for you.
“You’re either with me or against me.”
Other notable examples include but are not limited to.
“Everyone has their own interpretation…” but then they’ll be adamant that Aerith is still the real love interest.
“The player gets to decide” but then the kiss is not canon.
Etc Etc.
Maidenofwar
They/Them
I totally get it LunarTarotGirl, I personally find such a story unsatisfying as well, to find she didn't even have a crush just makes the whole thing seem so pointless especially if we don't get to see Aerith the woman fall in love with Zack the man, afterall the quote that said they didn't have time to show them properly so they made it like a sudden young love or something, we're not going to get to see them fully explore or fall in love as adults, which is why I guess I might end up ... shipless xD