SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[nars305]

I think the best thing the devs could do is show extended post-DoC epilogues during the credits. They can be cutaways during the credits or they can play alongside the credits similar to how Kingdom Hearts had epilogues for each of the worlds in their credits.

I think we kinda need to see more of post-DoC for the ultimate closure. Having it be the furthest in the timeline is not ideal, in my opinion.

Ahhh…this is my wish that I’m keeping in my “will not happen” bucket. Right next to wanting to see when their family got the matching jewelry *seen in AC…

 

[SilverSisu]

Youtube comments are the worst place to try and find any kind of meaningful discussion for this stuff, so i'd just steer clear of those, besides for entertainment purposes if you will .

I have learned that the hard way

 

[imach0c0]

I've been seeing discourse surrounding this line from the Chapter 14 Resolution scene in Remake:
Aerith to Cloud: "But whatever happens, you can't fall in love with me. Even if you think you have... it's not real."

Some people are arguing that its canon that Cloud falls in love with Aerith because of this line: "Even if you think you have... it's not real." Some are arguing that Aerith would not warn him if it never happened. Thus, Cloud fell in love with Aerith.

I don't know if I missed something but does Cloud ever fall in love with Aerith? (I never got that impression)

 

[nars305]

Youtube comments are the worst place to try and find any kind of meaningful discussion for this stuff, so i'd just steer clear of those, besides for entertainment purposes if you will .

Most of the time it is entertaining. Then you come across that one take that just crawls under your skin. I can’t believe how some people can twist things. I don’t see how you can enjoy media but alter it in such a way that it’s not even the source anymore.

 

[Hellenic]

Regarding the dream date, when Aerith and Cloud talk about making more memories, in JP, Cloud says:
"Yes, because we are friends" (HA)
"Yes, of course" (LA)

From Cloud's POV, do you think this is open to interpretation regarding the type of feelings he has for Aerith OR does Cloud just see her as a friend in both versions?

I see them both being basically the same thing personally. In both dialogues he agrees to hang out with her more, which to me isn't anything really surprising at this point. Neither really gives any kind of romantic intent to me.

 

[Hellenic]

Most of the time it is entertaining. Then you come across that one take that just crawls under your skin. I can’t believe how some people can twist things. I don’t see how you can enjoy media but alter it in such a way that it’s not even the source anymore.

Yeah and then you feel like replying to them and you regret the decision afterwards. At least that's me whenever i end up opening my mouth in places.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Okay, many of these have already been responded to, but allow me to add my two cents if you don't mind.

"Depending on the player, it’s natural for them to say, “I like Tifa. No, I prefer Aeris,” so I wanted to shape things in reflection of that, or in other words, create a system that reacts to the players’ feelings. For example, if the game had a completely straightforward path, I might feel stuck with Tifa because of story-related reasons, even though Aeris is the one I like, it gets to feel something like that, so I wanted to get rid of that approach. It’s not that there are branching paths, but I absolutely wanted to incorporate a mechanic that reflects the player’s feelings."

- Nomura, Game Walker magazine

So that's the players feelings, not Cloud's. And even then he notes "Might feel stuck with Tifa because of story-related reasons" and "it's not that there are branching paths.
I forget if it's this same interview or a different one where he says that care was taken to make each date and Cloud's reaction on each date genuine to his core character- IE: That's how he'd react in that situation.

"AC is piece of work made by Japanese people. In Hollywood movies, I think there is a tendency where the meaning of all the scenes have to be expressed clearly but, this isn’t something like that. With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it. The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times.

But, even if someone who have watched it interprets it differently then that is just another answer. I guess “comparing answers” with friends is one of the ways you can enjoy the movie. I think AC is a movie that makes those who have watched it, want to talk about it with others."

- Nomura

Nomura loves to put puzzles and secrets into his works for people to discuss about. It's not that there is no correct answer, he just wants to wait awhile and see what people theorize about. You can sort of see this in how he approaches questions about other games pre-release, like when he lied straight up to an interviewer about Namine and Kairi "not being related."

“Like Aerith, [Tifa] has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a “big kid” himself in some respects.”

- Nomura, Advent Children Reunion Files

Reunion files also describes her as someone's lover, a special woman to Cloud, states that they share a future together, and that Cloud and Tifa belong together. I might be forgetting a couple other statements in there. And yeah, she has a maternal bond towards Cloud, but Cloud called Aerith his mom, and she and Zack made jokes about it.

"The relationships between Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa were definitely ambiguous, even back in the original, so I wanted to make sure I kept those relationships – pushing the limits of what we can depict, while still looking like two people genuinely caring for each other and being natural."

- FF7 Remake Co-director Motomu Toriyama, Inverse.com Interview

Immediately I'm curious here about what context has been lost because we've gone from "the relationship between these three was ambiguous" to "pushing the limits of what we can depict between two people" in the same sentence. We've dropped someone here. Maybe it was Cloud? I am being facetious, but I do genuinely feel there's a missing part of this quote that provides much needed context.

“Having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new.”

- Yoshinori Kitase, 10th Anniversary Ultimania, page 11

This is an accurate statement of what Cloud is portrayed like during the first disc, sure, but that's not his eternal state. Things change in the lifestream sequence when his true self is restored.

"We never talk about how characters relate with each other outside of what is depicted in the game. Our only focus has been how best to depict the characters in an appealing way as part of the remake.

However, I also love to see the exciting discussions among the fans within the community and it’s something we’ve seen since the original game released!"

- Kitase, Push.com interview (May 24, 2020)

Except we literally have written examples from both now and before this quote depicting how they do interact? Not gonna lie, this feels like Kitase avoiding answering the question ahead of time, which is not unheard of. Nomura, as mentioned above, does it a lot.

“First off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don’t really intend to go into my views on love or marriage or family. After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith…”

- Nojima, Advent Children interview

Well, yes, because things are not currently going well between Cloud and Tifa due to his crippling guilt and diseased induced depression. That's literally part of the premise, so they can work through it and work through those problems and become an even better family together.

The devs have stated time after time that there is no canon romance. It is up to player to decide. SE is never going to make one ship canon.

But yes, none of that says "there is no canon romance." I read most of it as "You can figure it out" and "things aren't perfect, but that's how relationships are. Especially that last one from Nojima, who recently, in very plain wording wrote that Cloud explicitly wanted to become someone special to Tifa for a novella released just before Rebirth.

Spread the stupid ashes in your orchards afterward. That's how you grow Dumb Apples, right?

As reasonable a folk method as any.

Between this and your kitty's keyboard shenanigans, I'm naming the next stray cat I adopt Typo.

I approve this decision. No. Scratch that, I apporve it.

Yeah, but his poor ego. "You're quick, man. You're just not fast. -- Sonic the Hedgehog

That's just cruel. Now I want to see Sonic getting forced to deal with the internet bullshit side of Rockman.

And World of Pure Imagination is now stuck in my head. Someone get me an edible flower teacup.

Anything's edible if you insane enough.

Ah ok, I see where my confusion set in. I don't think I've actually seen it, but I do recall a brief discussion about it.

Here you are, then

I have not.

I recommend tracking them down. Good stuff.

It was. Oh sure, they'd add a couple new historical figures and more specific dates than the previous year but the events being taught did not often vary year to year. At least they weren't teaching "the benefits experienced by the slaves" or anything. I got my eye on you school, don't you dare.

Fire might have been warranted in that case. Burn the stupid, after all.

We need to introduce a fluffy black Tom in Edge and get some lovely grandchildren too. We could use a missing pet turns up with kittens episode anyway.

They have to adopt the kittens out to the families around edge.

I believe it. I use a voice based on Lanipator's Vegeta for my favorite DnD character, and even without having to do multiple takes that hurts after a four hour session.

Yeah, my full death voice takes it toll too.

Impressive. Recalls a time when Luna unplugged my PC and lost a whole chapter I'd just written. Good kitty taught me to save more often.

I have a UPC on every desktop in the house. Even then I had to turn them on their side because the one that likes to sleep on my desk also managed to find the power button on one while climbing up the server rack.

I'd say "less of a chore" over "easier" but yep.

I mean, annoyance factors into the "easiness" score.

Fair enough. And that sadly doesn't make the donuts.

No it does not.

Ahhh we have fun here.

Still find it hilarious that they started dating like right after Gundam SEED and when they started recording Crisis Core.

Infidel does fit somewhat better in this context. Pink Hell at least had fully schismed into basically it's own separate fandom.

Certainly they seemed to be playing and watching different games and movies than the rest of us.

Whoa, deja fuckin' vu right? Is it 2010 again?

I was not expecting to see that argument in 2024, no.

Beat me to it again.

And again, this isn't to be mean, canon is just one of those words with a particular meaning that for clear communication purposes we have to be precise about.

That ending is about as closed as can be.

All that's missing is the pitter patter of biological offspring at 7th heaven, just in case them adopting a kid together isn't enough.

I luled harder at this than I should have.

It is legit strange to me that people see FF7, a game with a singular ending and a singular course of narrative as having less of a canon ending for its hero than the game in the series where you can choose to let the player remain dead or not.

@SilverSisu: Welcome an' shit to the toxic thread of toxicity How we stacking up to YouTube comments so far? Is Tim Curry singing Toxic Love yet?[/I]

We all know the true LTD song is Time Warp. Not that I'd begrudge Curry singing in general, mind.

Speaking of supposedly inaccurate "official" material, I was dealing with a particularly difficult Clerith that would not back down on the strategy guide written by Doug Walsh for Dirge of Cerberus that is published "officially" by Square Enix, which claims that Cloud and Tifa are longtime friends, but it also claims that Tifa opened an orphanage.

So I'm just wondering, is this "orphanage" she supposedly opened ever elaborated upon? Like ever? Is it ever brought up again? Is it even referenced on a social media account of theirs even once over the course of 18 years?

It has literally never existed. There was a mention of taking care of orphans, people thought this meant she ran an orphanage.
Some people thought Cloud was running a rival Orphanage. Seven guesses who thought that and the first six don't count.
If someone things either Cloud or Tifa run an orphanage, you can dismiss them as knowing nothing at all about what they're talking about.

The problem is that posts on Twitter seem to indicate they think TLS is full of toxic Clotis so they’ll toss out any translation presented to them that originated from here.

Yeah, and the people who spread that idea are literally the people most invested in avoiding accurate translations.
TLS is where 'Cloti' gather because TLS is where people who want accurate translations and an understanding of the narrative hang out. That tends to be people who see C/T as endgame regardless of shipping.

Yet we are supposed to believe all their translations from a site called "Cloud x Aerith" and tumblrs of prominent Cleriths.

Oh the irony........

Yeah, 90% of the time they steal translations from TLS and try and spin doctor them. The other 10% are blatantly wrong or made up.

View attachment 16091
This really ends the debate for me. This is how Tifa is described in relation to Cloud. 大切な女性 is used for romantic partners/lovers/life partners, not friends. Other notable FF couples this phrase has been used for are Tidus and Yuna + Zidane and Garnet.
Tifa is referred to as “taisetsu no josei” which means important woman. Aerith is referred to as “taisetsu no hito” same as Zack, which means important person. One is specifically romantic, the other isn’t. And one google of 大切な女性 and all you’d see is topic about romance. Since there’s only 2 (3) kind of 大切な女性 母 mother, 姉妹 (sisters rarely used for this) And the one you love, as a female. You don’t use it for friends - This is confirmed by a native Japanese person.

Nthing this. Plus the "someone's lover" the "mother of the family they were forming in edge" "future together" etc. quotes. Actually, it might be time to rebuild the short simple list again. Maybe order it chronologically in universe or something.

I've been seeing discourse surrounding this line from the Chapter 14 Resolution scene in Remake:
Aerith to Cloud: "But whatever happens, you can't fall in love with me. Even if you think you have... it's not real."

Some people are arguing that its canon that Cloud falls in love with Aerith because of this line: "Even if you think you have... it's not real." Some are arguing that Aerith would not warn him if it never happened. Thus, Cloud fell in love with Aerith.

I don't know if I missed something but does Cloud fall in love with Aerith? (I never got that impression)

Even if he did, it wouldn't be real, and that's according to Materia Jesus herself.

BTW, a short comment on Lifestream White, and Black and actually all of OTWTAS.

There are a few different ways of writing, first, second third person are generally understood, but beyond that there is a level of awareness. A limited narrator knows only what a character knows. An omnisicent narrator knows everything. Even then there are distinctions. For example, you might have a third person limited objective narrator, simply reporting facts. Then there's limited personal/ subjective, which is where the opinions and thoughts of the character influence the narration, a sort of blend of first and third person. This is also a good way to do unreliable narrators. You can also have multiple limited narrators, which can seem like omniscient, but isn't, it's just jumping between different specific limited narrators. OTWTAS used multiple limited and very personal narrators. Case of Tifa, for example, is written from Tifa's perspective, Barret's from Barret's etc.

That brings me onto a side note about OTWTAS White and Black. The narrators are never named. Ever. I bring this up not to say "We do not know who they are" but to say of course we know who the fuck they are and it's in the context clues. But A: that doesn't make their words true, on either side, but it also B: leads into my point that yes, of course we as the fans can figure out shit that isn't explicitly stated because there's evidence, and evidence leads to conclusions and brother we have copious evidence leading us to the conclusion of a C/T AND Z/A endgame.

 

[nars305]

Yeah and then you feel like replying to them and you regret the decision afterwards. At least that's me whenever i end up opening my mouth in places.

Oh no I would never. There’s no changing certain peoples minds and I don’t care to. I just scroll in disbelief at the straight up lies. It’s one thing to have a different interpretation of something but it’s another thing to lie.

 

[imach0c0]

Okay, many of these have already been responded to, but allow me to add my two cents if you don't mind.


So that's the players feelings, not Cloud's. And even then he notes "Might feel stuck with Tifa because of story-related reasons" and "it's not that there are branching paths.
I forget if it's this same interview or a different one where he says that care was taken to make each date and Cloud's reaction on each date genuine to his core character- IE: That's how he'd react in that situation.


Nomura loves to put puzzles and secrets into his works for people to discuss about. It's not that there is no correct answer, he just wants to wait awhile and see what people theorize about. You can sort of see this


Reunion files also describes her as someone's lover, a special woman to Cloud, states that they share a future together, and that Cloud and Tifa belong together. I might be forgetting a couple other statements in there. And yeah, she has a maternal bond towards Cloud, but Cloud called Aerith his mom, and she and Zack made jokes about it.


Immediately I'm curious here about what context has been lost because we've gone from "the relationship between these three was ambiguous" to "pushing the limits of what we can depict between two people" in the same sentence. We've dropped someone here. Maybe it was Cloud? I am being facetious, but I do genuinely feel there's a missing part of this quote that provides much needed context.


This is an accurate statement of what Cloud is portrayed like during the first disc, sure, but that's not his eternal state. Things change in the lifestream sequence when his true self is restored.


Except we literally have written examples from both now and before this quote depicting how they do interact? Not gonna lie, this feels like Kitase avoiding answering the question ahead of time, which is not unheard of. More on that below.


Well, yes, because things are not currently going well between Cloud and Tifa due to his crippling guilt and diseased induced depression. That's literally part of the premise, so they can work through it and work through those problems and become an even better family together.


But yes, none of that says "there is no canon romance." I read most of it as "You can figure it out" and "things aren't perfect, but that's how relationships are. Especially that last one from Nojima, who recently, in very plain wording wrote that Cloud explicitly wanted to become someone special to Tifa for a novella released just before Rebirth.


As reasonable a folk method as any.


I approve this decision. No. Scratch that, I apporve it.


That's just cruel. Now I want to see Sonic getting forced to deal with the internet bullshit side of Rockman.


Anything's edible if you insane enough.


Here you are, then


I recommend tracking them down. Good stuff.


Fire might have been warranted in that case. Burn the stupid, after all.


They have to adopt the kittens out to the families around edge.


Yeah, my full death voice takes it toll too.


I have a UPC on every desktop in the house. Even then I had to turn them on their side because the one that likes to sleep on my desk also managed to find the power button on one while climbing up the server rack.


I mean, annoyance factors into the "easiness" score.


No it does not.


Still find it hilarious that they started dating like right after Gundam SEED and when they started recording Crisis Core.


Certainly they seemed to be playing and watching different games and movies than the rest of us.


I was not expecting to see that argument in 2024, no.


And again, this isn't to be mean, canon is just one of those words with a particular meaning that for clear communication purposes we have to be precise about.


All that's missing is the pitter patter of biological offspring at 7th heaven, just in case them adopting a kid together isn't enough.


It is legit strange to me that people see FF7, a game with a singular ending and a singular course of narrative as having less of a canon ending for its hero than the game in the series where you can choose to let the player remain dead or not.


We all know the true LTD song is Time Warp. Not that I'd begrudge Curry singing in general, mind.


It has literally never existed. There was a mention of taking care of orphans, people thought this meant she ran an orphanage.
Some people thought Cloud was running a rival Orphanage. Seven guesses who thought that and the first six don't count.
If someone things either Cloud or Tifa run an orphanage, you can dismiss them as knowing nothing at all about what they're talking about.


Yeah, and the people who spread that idea are literally the people most invested in avoiding accurate translations.
TLS is where 'Cloti' gather because TLS is where people who want accurate translations and an understanding of the narrative hang out. That tends to be people who see C/T as endgame regardless of shipping.


Yeah, 90% of the time they steal translations from TLS and try and spin doctor them. The other 10% are blatantly wrong or made up.


Nthing this. Plus the "someone's lover" the "mother of the family they were forming in edge" "future together" etc. quotes. Actually, it might be time to rebuild the short simple list again. Maybe order it chronologically in universe or something.


Even if he did, it wouldn't be real, and that's according to Materia Jesus herself.

BTW, a short comment on Lifestream White, and Black and actually all of OTWTAS.

There are a few different ways of writing, first, second third person are generally understood, but beyond that there is a level of awareness. A limited narrator knows only what a character knows. An omnisicent narrator knows everything. Even then there are distinctions. For example, you might have a third person limited objective narrator, simply reporting facts. Then there's limited personal/ subjective, which is where the opinions and thoughts of the character influence the narration, a sort of blend of first and third person. This is also a good way to do unreliable narrators. You can also have multiple limited narrators, which can seem like omniscient, but isn't, it's just jumping between different specific limited narrators. OTWTAS used multiple limited and very personal narrators. Case of Tifa, for example, is written from Tifa's perspective, Barret's from Barret's etc.

That brings me onto a side note about OTWTAS White and Black. The narrators are never named. Ever. I bring this up not to say "We do not know who they are" but to say of course we know who the fuck they are and it's in the context clues. But A: that doesn't make their words true, on either side, but it also leads into my point that yes, of course we as the fans can figure out shit that isn't explicitly stated because there's evidence, and evidence leads to conclusions and brother we have copious evidence leading us to the conclusion of a C/T AND Z/A endgame.

I don't quite get what you mean regarding your reply to my previous post (copied and pasted below). Do you mind explaining it again?

I've been seeing discourse surrounding this line from the Chapter 14 Resolution scene in Remake:
Aerith to Cloud: "But whatever happens, you can't fall in love with me. Even if you think you have... it's not real."

Some people are arguing that its canon that Cloud falls in love with Aerith because of this line: "Even if you think you have... it's not real." Some are arguing that Aerith would not warn him if it never happened. Thus, Cloud fell in love with Aerith.

I don't know if I missed something but does Cloud fall in love with Aerith? (I never got that impression)

 

[Ryushikaze]

Sorry, I was being very snarky. No, I do not think Cloud falls in romantic love for Aerith. What I was joking about was that the people who take that as evidence are the type to take Aerith's word as Gospel (Ha!) and so as she said, even if he had somehow fallen in love with her "It isn't real."

Cloud's thoughts almost literally start and stop at Tifa.

 

[imach0c0]

Sorry, I was being very snarky. No, I do not think Cloud falls in romantic love for Aerith. What I was joking about was that the people who take that as evidence are the type to take Aerith's word as Gospel (Ha!) and so as she said, even if he had somehow fallen in love with her "It isn't real."

Cloud's thoughts almost literally start and stop at Tifa.

haha No problem.

If this Aerith is from the future, why would she give that warning to Cloud? Doesn't it imply that she knows Cloud fell in love with her at some point which is why she warning him? Unless Aerith is making an assumption?

 

[GamerSkull]

Sorry, I was being very snarky. No, I do not think Cloud falls in romantic love for Aerith. What I was joking about was that the people who take that as evidence are the type to take Aerith's word as Gospel (Ha!) and so as she said, even if he had somehow fallen in love with her "It isn't real."

Cloud's thoughts almost literally start and stop at Tifa.

It's quite funny how they take Aerith's words as gospel but seem to always ignore repeated statements of Cloud wanting to be special to Tifa.

Then again, these people take Cait Sith's fortunes as gospel too.

 

[nars305]

haha No problem.

If this Aerith is from the future, why would she give that warning to Cloud? Doesn't it imply that she knows Cloud fell in love with her at some point which is why she warning him? Unless Aerith is making an assumption?

At which point would he have fallen in love? We play Rebirth and she dies, we have been shown her full relationship with Cloud. He never shared mutual feelings with her.

 

[imach0c0]

At which point would he have fallen in love? We play Rebirth and she dies, we have been shown her full relationship with Cloud. He never shared mutual feelings with her.

That's what I find confusing about that line, especially if that Aerith is LS or Future Aerith. Why is she warning him in the first place? Does she know something or just assuming?

 

[null]

haha No problem.

If this Aerith is from the future, why would she give that warning to Cloud? Doesn't it imply that she knows Cloud fell in love with her at some point which is why she warning him? Unless Aerith is making an assumption?

Not necessarily. Maybe Cloud is acting differently than she remembers - it is a new optional scene after all - and she's worried about him throwing more gasoline on the dumpster fire that is his mental health.

Either way the key phrases are "it isn't real" and "optional". As a great hero once said, I'm smellin' a lot of if coming off this plan.

 

[nars305]

That's what I find confusing about that line, especially if that Aerith is LS or Future Aerith. Why is she warning him in the first place? Does she know something or just assuming?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415567942855450624

 

[nars305]

I’ll add that this scene is similarly confusing to me as the final date is. Where Cloud is kind of confused as to what’s happening and Aerith is sharing deep feelings with him.

I can’t remember Remake very well, since while I enjoyed it, I was not as invested in FF7 as I am now.

 

[Ryushikaze]

haha No problem.

If this Aerith is from the future, why would she give that warning to Cloud? Doesn't it imply that she knows Cloud fell in love with her at some point which is why she warning him? Unless Aerith is making an assumption?

I think that comment, like Nars linked to, is meant as much or more for herself than it is for Cloud.

I’ll add that this scene is similarly confusing to me as the final date is. Where Cloud is kind of confused as to what’s happening and Aerith is sharing deep feelings with him.

I can’t remember Remake very well, since while I enjoyed it, I was not as invested in FF7 as I am now.

I actually have a thought that Remake conclusion Aerith might be from later in her personal timestream than Dream Date Aerith is.

 

[Yoru]

I’ll add that this scene is similarly confusing to me as the final date is. Where Cloud is kind of confused as to what’s happening and Aerith is sharing deep feelings with him.

I can’t remember Remake very well, since while I enjoyed it, I was not as invested in FF7 as I am now.

I always seen this as a meta message.

Just the dev being "wink wink she knows things wink wink it's not a normal Aerith wink wink"

For people knowing the lore it's pretty clear what's she's saying

This love is not real :

• Aerith is falling in love with a Zack imitation.
• Cloud has a alien in his brain, forgot 5 years of his life, and forgot why he went on a journey. To impress Tifa. In short, the real him is already in love with someone else.

I think it's not more complicated than that. It's the proof for OG players that Aerith know things she shouldn't. This Remake was more than a Remake. And that Clerith was not the lane they chose for this re-telling.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's quite funny how they take Aerith's words as gospel but seem to always ignore repeated statements of Cloud wanting to be special to Tifa.

Then again, these people take Cait Sith's fortunes as gospel too.

And he's explicitly called out for his unreliable fortunes in several Ultimanias. Even setting that aside, his fortunes are so vague they're basically unfalsifiable. That's a bad thing, for the record.

 

[Eerie]

Aerith’s resolution in Remake is also a meta commentary to the player: even if you, the player think that Cloud fell for Aerith, it’s not true.

 

[Stiggie]

"Depending on the player, it’s natural for them to say, “I like Tifa. No, I prefer Aeris,” so I wanted to shape things in reflection of that, or in other words, create a system that reacts to the players’ feelings. For example, if the game had a completely straightforward path, I might feel stuck with Tifa because of story-related reasons, even though Aeris is the one I like, it gets to feel something like that, so I wanted to get rid of that approach. It’s not that there are branching paths, but I absolutely wanted to incorporate a mechanic that reflects the player’s feelings."

- Nomura, Game Walker magazine


"AC is piece of work made by Japanese people. In Hollywood movies, I think there is a tendency where the meaning of all the scenes have to be expressed clearly but, this isn’t something like that. With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it. The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times.

But, even if someone who have watched it interprets it differently then that is just another answer. I guess “comparing answers” with friends is one of the ways you can enjoy the movie. I think AC is a movie that makes those who have watched it, want to talk about it with others."

- Nomura


“Like Aerith, [Tifa] has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a “big kid” himself in some respects.”

- Nomura, Advent Children Reunion Files

"The relationships between Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa were definitely ambiguous, even back in the original, so I wanted to make sure I kept those relationships – pushing the limits of what we can depict, while still looking like two people genuinely caring for each other and being natural."

- FF7 Remake Co-director Motomu Toriyama, Inverse.com Interview


“Having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new.”

- Yoshinori Kitase, 10th Anniversary Ultimania, page 11

"We never talk about how characters relate with each other outside of what is depicted in the game. Our only focus has been how best to depict the characters in an appealing way as part of the remake.

However, I also love to see the exciting discussions among the fans within the community and it’s something we’ve seen since the original game released!"

- Kitase, Push.com interview (May 24, 2020)


“First off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don’t really intend to go into my views on love or marriage or family. After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith…”

- Nojima, Advent Children interview

The devs have stated time after time that there is no canon romance. It is up to player to decide. SE is never going to make one ship canon.

None of this implies a lack of canon though. All of it has the same general feeling, which I have equated to controlling the weapons. You can steer left or right a bit but ultimately there are no other destinations.

"Depending on the player, it’s natural for them to say, “I like Tifa. No, I prefer Aeris,” so I wanted to shape things in reflection of that, or in other words, create a system that reacts to the players’ feelings. For example, if the game had a completely straightforward path, I might feel stuck with Tifa because of story-related reasons, even though Aeris is the one I like, it gets to feel something like that, so I wanted to get rid of that approach. It’s not that there are branching paths, but I absolutely wanted to incorporate a mechanic that reflects the player’s feelings."

- Nomura, Game Walker magazine

Straight up admits that there are no branching paths and that a straightforward path ends with Tifa. Aka, there is some leeway given so you can, for instance, go on a date with Aerith. But it ends with Tifa.

"AC is piece of work made by Japanese people. In Hollywood movies, I think there is a tendency where the meaning of all the scenes have to be expressed clearly but, this isn’t something like that. With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it. The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times.

But, even if someone who have watched it interprets it differently then that is just another answer. I guess “comparing answers” with friends is one of the ways you can enjoy the movie. I think AC is a movie that makes those who have watched it, want to talk about it with others."

- Nomura

"the staff has their own interpretations to all the scenes" Q.E.D. The existence of interpretations does not invalidate canonicity.

“Like Aerith, [Tifa] has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a “big kid” himself in some respects.”

- Nomura, Advent Children Reunion Files

I fail to see the relevance.

"The relationships between Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa were definitely ambiguous, even back in the original, so I wanted to make sure I kept those relationships – pushing the limits of what we can depict, while still looking like two people genuinely caring for each other and being natural."

- FF7 Remake Co-director Motomu Toriyama, Inverse.com Interview

Ambiguous also does not mean there is not a correct answer, they've already confirmed that certain interpretations will be lost as they're no longer able to be as ambiguous. Aka, ambiguity does not invalidate canon.

“Having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new.”

- Yoshinori Kitase, 10th Anniversary Ultimania, page 11

Someone wavering (because of his false identity) during the game does not mean there is no outcome. This is a story arc, a story arc has a conclusion.

"We never talk about how characters relate with each other outside of what is depicted in the game. Our only focus has been how best to depict the characters in an appealing way as part of the remake.

However, I also love to see the exciting discussions among the fans within the community and it’s something we’ve seen since the original game released!"

- Kitase, Push.com interview (May 24, 2020)

And yet clearly they talk about how the characters relate INSIDE the game, and that requires motivations, feelings, etc. So again, not relevant.

“First off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don’t really intend to go into my views on love or marriage or family. After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith…”

- Nojima, Advent Children interview

Random speculation that literally has nothing to do with what we're talking about. If anything this just confirms that Cloud is with Tifa since that's the subject "Maybe WOULD have" directly implies that this is not what happens. This quote essentially confirms that what happens....is Tifa.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Okay, many of these have already been responded to, but allow me to add my two cents if you don't mind.

Crow T. Robot: We do!

I regret nothing.

So that's the players feelings, not Cloud's. And even then he notes "Might feel stuck with Tifa because of story-related reasons" and "it's not that there are branching paths.

This This story has a beginning, middle, and end. Some of what you see in the middle may change based on your choices, the end will not.

I forget if it's this same interview or a different one where he says that care was taken to make each date and Cloud's reaction on each date genuine to his core character- IE: That's how he'd react in that situation.

I wanna say it's a different interview that was being discussed in tandem, but it was always back there so... Could be either.

Nomura loves to put puzzles and secrets into his works for people to discuss about. It's not that there is no correct answer, he just wants to wait awhile and see what people theorize about. You can sort of see this

Nomura thinks it's best when you figure shit out on your own. If hordes of people get it wrong, that's not his problem.

Reunion files also describes her as someone's lover, a special woman to Cloud, states that they share a future together, and that Cloud and Tifa belong together. I might be forgetting a couple other statements in there. And yeah, she has a maternal bond towards Cloud, but Cloud called Aerith his mom, and she and Zack made jokes about it.

Are people really arguing that one of Tifa's many qualities being "maternal" in some way hurts Cloti? After Cloud literally called Aerith mom? That's good old fashioned Both Sides-ism.

This is an accurate statement of what Cloud is portrayed like during the first disc, sure, but that's not his eternal state. Things change in the lifestream sequence when his true self is restored.

It's funny how hard it is for people to let go of SOLDIER!Cloud and the illusion of choice he provides.

Except we literally have written examples from both now and before this quote depicting how they do interact? Not gonna lie, this feels like Kitase avoiding answering the question ahead of time, which is not unheard of. More on that below.

Agreed, though this is one of those times I wish he'd just say "I'm not answering that at this time, move on."

But yes, none of that says "there is no canon romance." I read most of it as "You can figure it out" and "things aren't perfect, but that's how relationships are. Especially that last one from Nojima, who recently, in very plain wording wrote that Cloud explicitly wanted to become someone special to Tifa for a novella released just before Rebirth.

How long did it take for certain folks to seize on "wanted" being past tense and assume that it doesn't apply to the present, which is optional except it's really Aerith? Was it measured in nanoseconds?

As reasonable a folk method as any.

Well folk methods can't all be wrong, sign me up.

I approve this decision. No. Scratch that, I apporve it.

Sadly I'm already buried in cats that I love plus my mother-in-law shaped person's cats so I should hold off on this.

That's just cruel. Now I want to see Sonic getting forced to deal with the internet bullshit side of Rockman.

Why would you wish this on Sonic, he has so much internet bullshit of his own... Oh wait you meant the in-universe .exe stuff. Yeah that could be fun and give Tails something to do. I'm down.

Anything's edible if you insane enough.

Or if you're Matter Eater Lad. Yes I am referencing that. I still regret nothing.

Here you are, then

Will definitely give this a look later.

I recommend tracking them down. Good stuff.

Under advisement.

Fire might have been warranted in that case. Burn the stupid, after all.

For real. Like the whole thing is up to forge temp amounts of fire.

They have to adopt the kittens out to the families around edge.

From what I saw in Rebirth, Fluffy was a prolific breeder. Ergo, baskets of kittens riding on Fenrir. I think I might have diabetes just picturing it.

Yeah, my full death voice takes it toll too.

My own is substantially easier, as it lacks the rasp and volume. I JUST ENDEAVOR TO ACTUALLY SPEAK IN BOLDED ALL-CAPS. Also sees a fair but of use since it's easier for Clicky to understand (she has pretty severe hearing loss especially for higher pitched sounds so the deeper I can go the better).

I have a UPC on every desktop in the house. Even then I had to turn them on their side because the one that likes to sleep on my desk also managed to find the power button on one while climbing up the server rack.

That's adorably inconvenient.

I mean, annoyance factors into the "easiness" score.

I cannot argue with this.

No it does not.

If only they knew this.

Still find it hilarious that they started dating like right after Gundam SEED and when they started recording Crisis Core.

The timing is worthy of a chuckle.

Certainly they seemed to be playing and watching different games and movies than the rest of us.

Well heretic or infidel, it amounts to the same. You're both correct and know how to debate and they hate you for it Wear it with pride.

I was not expecting to see that argument in 2024, no.

Ok so it is 2024, good. Had me worried, some of the last 14 years did feel more like a a nightmare than reality. But, I got three good reasons to never take them back.

And again, this isn't to be mean, canon is just one of those words with a particular meaning that for clear communication purposes we have to be precise about.

To be fair, isn't that all words? When using a word with a looser or more varied meaning isn't it just as or more important to be precise about how it's being used?

And I do both know what you mean and agree, I'm just saying.

All that's missing is the pitter patter of biological offspring at 7th heaven, just in case them adopting a kid together isn't enough.

For some, a bio-baby isn't enough. Nothing ever will be. For those who follow the narrative, Denzel wasn't even necessary, he's a cherry on top.

It is legit strange to me that people see FF7, a game with a singular ending and a singular course of narrative as having less of a canon ending for its hero than the game in the series where you can choose to let the player remain dead or not.

That is funny. Hilarious, actually.

We all know the true LTD song is Time Warp. Not that I'd begrudge Curry singing in general, mind.

Tempted to write a parody version of Professional Pirate for the LTD.

"Cause when you're a dishonest CAltist... It hurts to tell the truth!"

It has literally never existed. There was a mention of taking care of orphans, people thought this meant she ran an orphanage.
Some people thought Cloud was running a rival Orphanage. Seven guesses who thought that and the first six don't count.

Now, putting aside how ridiculous this claim is for a moment... how do you even run an orphanage that is a rival to another orphanage? Do you compete on number of orphans in your care? Number successfully adopted out? Do we throw them into Battle Square over at the Gold Saucer?

If someone things either Cloud or Tifa run an orphanage, you can dismiss them as knowing nothing at all about what they're talking about.

Both can and should.

Yeah, and the people who spread that idea are literally the people most invested in avoiding accurate translations.

The only accurate translations are done in a WacDonald's, everyone knows that

TLS is where 'Cloti' gather because TLS is where people who want accurate translations and an understanding of the narrative hang out. That tends to be people who see C/T as endgame regardless of shipping.

Pretty much this. Even back in the bad old days this was true outside of bad faith actors like BlankBeat and Anastar who posted exclusively to pick fights in the name of Pink Hell.

Yeah, 90% of the time they steal translations from TLS and try and spin doctor them. The other 10% are blatantly wrong or made up.

Are you serious? I remember, if only vaguely, some accusations of that kind of shenanigans, but never heard if anyone got to the bottom of it. That's low, if true. And being as I'm hearing it from our Admiral, I have to assume that at minimum it's the most obvious conclusion based on available evidence.

Nthing this. Plus the "someone's lover" the "mother of the family they were forming in edge" "future together" etc. quotes. Actually, it might be time to rebuild the short simple list again. Maybe order it chronologically in universe or something.

Chronologically in-universe sounds best to me. By import or impact would be too subjective, and in-universe chronology should mix up old and new out of universe a bit. Also you definitely should get the SSL up again ASAP FGJ, and quoting from it should be SOP until all opposition is FUBAR

Even if he did, it wouldn't be real, and that's according to Materia Jesus herself.

I haven't heard Material Jesus in years. Ahhh nostalgia.

 

[abzy1200]

View attachment 16091
This really ends the debate for me. This is how Tifa is described in relation to Cloud. 大切な女性 is used for romantic partners/lovers/life partners, not friends. Other notable FF couples this phrase has been used for are Tidus and Yuna + Zidane and Garnet.
Tifa is referred to as “taisetsu no josei” which means important woman. Aerith is referred to as “taisetsu no hito” same as Zack, which means important person. One is specifically romantic, the other isn’t. And one google of 大切な女性 and all you’d see is topic about romance. Since there’s only 2 (3) kind of 大切な女性 母 mother, 姉妹 (sisters rarely used for this) And the one you love, as a female. You don’t use it for friends - This is confirmed by a native Japanese person.

"But wait! Character relationship charts say Cloud and Tifa are just childhood friends!"

End my suffering

 

[SilverSisu]

And he's explicitly called out for his unreliable fortunes in several Ultimanias. Even setting that aside, his fortunes are so vague they're basically unfalsifiable. That's a bad thing, for the record.

Except in Rebirth Cait's readings were 3/3

That cat is on a roll