SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Seeing a lot of discourse with how the dream date is interpreted. What do people mean its "zack coded?" Is that even a thing or just head canon stuff?

I don't think Aerith was using Cloud as a stand in for Zack, however the amount of Zack references in the subtext is hard to ignore. If it was a deliberate choice to bring in Zack references in the dream date, what is the purpose narratively?

The new Stamp you can buy is a dog with black spiky hair. On the wall you can see a Stamp carrying on his back another hurted Stamp. When "you buy" the brooch to Aerith, she's saying the exact same words she told Zack : "I will cherish it"

And of course all the date is interrupted by Zack moments in other worlds.

It's complicated to dismiss all this points as Zack imagery. Why tho ? That's the real question and where the interpretation comes in play.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
The new Stamp you can buy is a dog with black spiky hair. On the wall you can see a Stamp carrying on his back another hurted Stamp. When "you buy" the brooch to Aerith, she's saying the exact same words she told Zack : "I will cherish it"

And of course all the date is interrupted by Zack moments in other worlds.

It's complicated to dismiss all this points as Zack imagery. Why tho ? That's the real question and where the interpretation comes in play.
Do you have any interpretations on it?

The one that stood out to me is when Aerith says "special place" (JP) and it cuts to Zack at the church.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
After reading that question and its answer, I know I need to have that Zack eating at Cloud's place with Claudia and him in the LS Nibelheim flashback. PLEASE!
They seem to reference CC a lot, so it would be cool as Cloud starts recalling more Zack memories, we get to see more ZC interactions. I wonder if they will incorporate the hidden scenes in OG - where they got captured and experimented on.
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
I liked her pink dresses too and hated that for her “worst” dress i.e. the one you get if you don’t do any sidequests in Sector 5, you have literal rats following after her and some dogs and cats like… what even are they trying to say with this?!
Right! The "worst" dress was really cute too, I don't get why it's called the worst lol. I'd totally like something cute like that.

They seem to reference CC a lot, so it would be cool as Cloud starts recalling more Zack memories, we get to see more ZC interactions. I wonder if they will incorporate the hidden scenes in OG - where they got captured and experimented on.
More ZC please.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Do you have any interpretations on it?

Not really an interpretation. To me If the church is truly a special place in common for Aerith, it's with Zack

It's just facts. That's there meeting point in Crisis Core for more than 1 year if I remember well. Cloud has only entered this church once in his life.

Why is she saying this to Cloud ? I don't know. Like I already said, we don't even know what this Aerith is.

Funny take for you all : And what if all this dream date was Cloud memories and not Aerith' ? We saw Zack is always talking about Aerith to Cloud. He may have describe their dates, what she's saying to him. So that's why we see the stamp carrying his teamate and all. That's just Cloud subconscious recreating a date he heard about. And his inner self is screaming :

NOOOOOOOO CLOUD !!! STOP !! Remember Zack !!! It's his girlfriend !!!!

1714236540770.jpeg
 
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imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
Not really an interpretation. To me If the church is truly a special place in common for Aerith, it's with Zack

It's just facts. That's there meeting point in Crisis Core for more than 1 year if I remember well. Cloud has only entered this church once in his life.

Why is she saying this to Cloud ? I don't know. Like I already said, we don't even know what this Aerith is.

Funny take for you all : And what if all this was Cloud memories and not Aerith' ? We saw Zack is always talking about Aerith to Cloud. He may have describe their dates, what she's saying to him. So that's why we see the stamp carrying his teamate and all. That's just Cloud subconscious recreating a date he heard about. And his inner self is screaming :

NOOOOOOOO CLOUD !!! STOP !! Remember Zack !!! It's his girlfriend !!!!

View attachment 16174
Oh mb - I meant interpretations regarding the zack imagery, not just the church part.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
I hope so. Can’t lie, I was a bit disappointed with Zack fighting with Cloud and there’s not much of anything to it afterward. I know they are fighting Sephiroth but I don’t know. Cloud kind of acted like it was just another Tuesday.
For Zack, Cloud was mako sleeping all game and for Cloud, he seemed traumatized to remember him dying. So when they show up together, it was kinda jarring how casual their interactions were. Especially with how the game was handling character relationships and dialogue.
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
I hope so. Can’t lie, I was a bit disappointed with Zack fighting with Cloud and there’s not much of anything to it afterward. I know they are fighting Sephiroth but I don’t know. Cloud kind of acted like it was just another Tuesday.
I hope they're saving it all for P3 when they can start to actually answer the mysteries. So I guess I'll just wait until then to be disappointed, lol.

Though, to be honest, against all logic, I'm still hoping for a date between Zack and Cloud. If everybody else got one, he deserves one too, lol.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
For Zack, Cloud was mako sleeping all game and for Cloud, he seemed traumatized to remember him dying. So when they show up together, it was kinda jarring how casual their interactions were. Especially with how the game was handling character relationships and dialogue.
We also gotta remember Clouds headspace Aeriths just died he sees her alive was initially thinking she's dead. Sephiroth is taunting him he's repressing his own memories and has been transported away from the others to edge of creation (which might be a place in Clouds mind)
Then Zack appears but Sephiroth attacks.
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I hope so. Can’t lie, I was a bit disappointed with Zack fighting with Cloud and there’s not much of anything to it afterward. I know they are fighting Sephiroth but I don’t know. Cloud kind of acted like it was just another Tuesday.
Yeah, it's similar to the ending of Remake. My hope is something will be said about it near the beginning of the 3rd game
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Oh mb - I meant interpretations regarding the zack imagery, not just the church part.

I said it jokingly but I'm half serious. We all focused on Aerith while everything was happening in Cloud's head. She says that it's her dream but why couldn't Cloud's subconscious also act on what's happening ?

Maybe he's the one who thinks of Zack and makes him appear via the stamps. Cloud remembers part of Zack during the game. He remembers that he is in love with Aerith. Maybe his subconscious is really trying to remind him of something. Maybe that's why the photographer tells him they don't look like a real couple. Maybe it's Cloud who refuses to make it romantic. Because he feels uncomfortable with the situation.

During all Rebirth the fact that Aerith still has feelings for Zack he's in the back of his mind. Some say he's jealous. Other say he's just sorry for her and doesn't know how to confess to her that Zack is dead. And that's why Aerith's statements are so contradictory with this Zack imagery. Why confess to a guy when you're thinking about another ? It may explain it.

Not 100% confident in this, but honestly it could work.
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
Do you have any interpretations on it?

The one that stood out to me is when Aerith says "special place" (JP) and it cuts to Zack at the church.
Maybe that's why the photographer tells him they don't look like a real couple.

I think the moment when the photographer said CA doesn't look like couple because the girl looks like gonna cry (JP)/it's like funeral (EN) is also the callback how the shopkeeper in CC thought Zack is Aerith's boyfriend that she wouldnt find a good--kindhearted guy like him, and Bruno says Zack & Aerith look good together,

About the church, this isn't ever mentioned before in this discussion. But Nomura says in Dengeki Maou for CCFF7 interview back then (2007)
"Whenever something comes up in his mind, Zack heads straight to the church, as if he’s looking to be healed."
Aside from the moment Aerith embraced him when he's grieving Angeal's death, Nomura's comment reminds me of all of these scenes throughout Remake & Rebirth:

1714237753477.png

EDIT: adding this
"This is a strange place. Flowers bloom all year long. The seasons never change--my feelings never change. I’m stuck.”
(Aerith's monologue, FF 30th Anniversary Exhibition 2018)
1714238721232.png1714238775246.png
Which strange place that flowers bloom all year long? The church, right?
So, it's the place where her feelings (for Zack) never change because there is too many memories of him (or them being spending time together there). The place where she finally admit she knew where she & Cloud stand.
 
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Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
I think the moment when the photographer said CA doesn't look like couple because the girl looks like gonna cry (JP)/it's like funeral (EN) is also the callback how the shopkeeper in CC thought Zack is Aerith's boyfriend that she wouldnt find a good--kindhearted guy like him, and Bruno says Zack & Aerith look good together,

About the church, this isn't ever mentioned before in this discussion. But Nomura says in Dengeki Maou for CCFF7 interview back then (2007)
"Whenever something comes up in his mind, Zack heads straight to the church, as if he’s looking to be healed."
Aside from the moment Aerith embraced him when he's grieving Angeal's death, Nomura's comment reminds me of all of these scenes throughout Remake & Rebirth:

View attachment 16177
Any theories which church Zack is in at the end?
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
I said it jokingly but I'm half serious. We all focused on Aerith while everything was happening in Cloud's head. She says that it's her dream but why couldn't Cloud's subconscious also act on what's happening ?

Maybe he's the one who thinks of Zack and makes him appear via the stamps. Cloud remembers part of Zack during the game. He remembers that he is in love with Aerith. Maybe his subconscious is really trying to remind him of something. Maybe that's why the photographer tells him they don't look like a real couple. Maybe it's Cloud who refuses to make it romantic. Because he feels uncomfortable with the situation.

During all Rebirth the fact that Aerith still has feelings for Zack he's in the back of his mind. Some say he's jealous. Other say he's just sorry for her and doesn't know how to confess to her that Zack is dead. And that's why Aerith's statements are so contradictory with this Zack imagery. Why confess to a guy when you're thinking about another ? It may explain it.

Not 100% confident in this, but honestly it could work.
That's a pretty interesting analysis that I have not seen before.

One of the thoughts I had was if this world is created by Aerith and these worlds are made of dreams/hopes, it could be representing Aerith's subconscious, meaning where her true heart lies (Zack). Thought she is trying to have this moment with a "real" Cloud that she is trying to find, it does not seem to work out because this "love" she is seeking is still with Zack (she just doesn't realize it due to her being confused about her feelings). On the surface, she is trying to move on from Zack to Cloud but its not working out because deep inside her heart, she still yearns for Zack.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
I think the moment when the photographer said CA doesn't look like couple because the girl looks like gonna cry (JP)/it's like funeral (EN) is also the callback how the shopkeeper in CC thought Zack is Aerith's boyfriend that she wouldnt find a good--kindhearted guy like him, and Bruno says Zack & Aerith look good together,

About the church, this isn't ever mentioned before in this discussion. But Nomura says in Dengeki Maou for CCFF7 interview back then (2007)
"Whenever something comes up in his mind, Zack heads straight to the church, as if he’s looking to be healed."
Aside from the moment Aerith embraced him when he's grieving Angeal's death, Nomura's comment reminds me of all of these scenes throughout Remake & Rebirth:

View attachment 16177
When Zack gets healed in the church, its similar to his Aerith Limit Break in CC. Not sure if its a coincidence but its an interesting similarity.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Any theories which church Zack is in at the end?

What if he never left it to begin with ?

Like Cloud escaping the dream date/sleeping forrest when he wakes up. What if all of Zack worlds are dreams too ? When he wakes up and say "it felt too real" we suppose he's talking about the Sephiroth fight and all. But what if he's talking about all his Rebirth's POV ?

Maybe the Intergrade secret ending is the actual Zack returning, staying in the Church, sleeping and all of Rebirth happens.
Where is this Church you're asking ? Well...

I DON'T KNOW lmao
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
What if he never left it to begin with ?

Like Cloud escaping the dream date/sleeping forrest when he wakes up. What if all of Zack worlds are dreams too ? When he wakes up and say "it felt too real" we suppose he's talking about the Sephiroth fight and all. But what if he's talking about all his Rebirth's POV.

Maybe the Intergrade secret ending is the actual Zack returning, staying in the Church, sleeping and all of Rebirth happens
Do you think that's why the Zack chapters are skippable after beating the game? Also, I can see that as a work around to the Intergrade Zack scene.
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
Any theories which church Zack is in at the end?
Any world where the planet isnt dying I guess?
I mean, the flowers in Zack's final battle versus Sephiroth Reborn are wilted but one, just like Terrier.
Though, it's strange because the flowers where Aerith confesses her feelings for Cloud are blooming despite the crack of the sky.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Do you think that's why the Zack chapters are skippable after beating the game? Also, I can see that as a work around to the Intergrade Zack scene.

I don't know. I don't think so. I really just see it as a QoL option. You don't do anything in Zack POV to be honest. It's just walking around in very limited maps, and watching cinematics. So I won't read too deep to be honest. It's just to keep the flow when you wan't to replay the game for trophy hunting and all.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
Any world where the planet isnt dying I guess?
I mean, the flowers in Zack's final battle versus Sephiroth Reborn are wilted but one, just like Terrier.
Though, it's strange because the flowers where Aerith confesses her feelings for Cloud are blooming despite the crack of the sky.
Maybe the church is special, meaning it always has bloomed flowers. In the Aerith 30th Anniversary monologue, I think it mentions:
"this is strange place, the seasons never change" - perhaps referring to the church?

But then again, there is that scene where there is one bloomed flower amongst dead flowers in the burning church when Zack fights.

So who knows.
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
Not really an interpretation. To me If the church is truly a special place in common for Aerith, it's with Zack

It's just facts. That's there meeting point in Crisis Core for more than 1 year if I remember well. Cloud has only entered this church once in his life.

Why is she saying this to Cloud ? I don't know. Like I already said, we don't even know what this Aerith is.

Funny take for you all : And what if all this dream date was Cloud memories and not Aerith' ? We saw Zack is always talking about Aerith to Cloud. He may have describe their dates, what she's saying to him. So that's why we see the stamp carrying his teamate and all. That's just Cloud subconscious recreating a date he heard about. And his inner self is screaming :

NOOOOOOOO CLOUD !!! STOP !! Remember Zack !!! It's his girlfriend !!!!

View attachment 16174

That's a pretty interesting analysis that I have not seen before.

One of the thoughts I had was if this world is created by Aerith and these worlds are made of dreams/hopes, it could be representing Aerith's subconscious, meaning where her true heart lies (Zack). Thought she is trying to have this moment with a "real" Cloud that she is trying to find, it does not seem to work out because this "love" she is seeking is still with Zack (she just doesn't realize it due to her being confused about her feelings). On the surface, she is trying to move on from Zack to Cloud but its not working out because deep inside her heart, she still yearns for Zack.
Maybe it's a combination of both? As has been said before in this thread, Zack is kind of a big ghost between Cloud and Aerith.
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
Maybe the church always has bloomed flowers. In the Aerith 30th Anniversary monologue, I think it mentions:
"this is strange place, the seasons never change" - perhaps referring to the church?
No, the church where the meteor strike has wilted flowers but one.
Also, I edit my previous post to include that line of monologue.
 

AncientGrimoire

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Grim
I think the moment when the photographer said CA doesn't look like couple because the girl looks like gonna cry (JP)/it's like funeral (EN) is also the callback how the shopkeeper in CC thought Zack is Aerith's boyfriend that she wouldnt find a good--kindhearted guy like him, and Bruno says Zack & Aerith look good together,

About the church, this isn't ever mentioned before in this discussion. But Nomura says in Dengeki Maou for CCFF7 interview back then (2007)
"Whenever something comes up in his mind, Zack heads straight to the church, as if he’s looking to be healed."
Aside from the moment Aerith embraced him when he's grieving Angeal's death, Nomura's comment reminds me of all of these scenes throughout Remake & Rebirth:

View attachment 16177

This to me is why I personally cannot look at the church as Cloud and Aerith’s “spot”.

Their scene together there is of course beloved, iconic, and memorable especially as it was remembered in the original and recreated in Remake.

But all told the time they spend there together is less than ten minutes or so.

Meanwhile innumerable scenes between Aerith and Zack take place there, not to mention it being their very first scene there together.

It’s Zack and Aerith’s spot. And I always felt as much as Cloud goes to the spot where Zack died in Advent Children to mourn both Zack and Aerith, so too do I see him going to the church to mourn them both. Symbolised as others here have mentioned by the yellow flowers blooming at the spot where Zack died, and his buster sword being planted in the flower patch in the church.

And as you’ve highlighted, in no matter what universe or world or timeline or Lifestream dream pocket he is in, Zack somehow always finds himself at Aerith’s church.

As much as there is a desired narrative right now for some to see Cloud search the multiverse to find and reunite with Aerith, that isn’t the story that is being set up for him. The many goodbyes he has with Aerith in Rebirth’s ending sets up what is his original path in Part 3, that of stopping Sephiroth. There isn’t any promise made between them to find each other, and why would they? Irrespective of whether Aerith is alive in another world or not, she’s still very much able to be present with Cloud if she so chooses, or if Cloud so chooses to wish to see her there.

Their final goodbye together doesn’t set up any potential reunion for them. It’s more a “I’ll do my part, you do yours, and if you run into trouble send up smoke and me and the cavalry will come by”

Meanwhile pretty much the entirety of what they’ve done with Zack in Rebirth is the very “searching the multiverse for Aerith” narrative that some CAs are thinking Part 3 will be about for Cloud and Aerith.

Again I get the sense they know that is what Zack’s story is and would rather see it be for Cloud and Aerith, so too the Lifestream scene being Cloud and Aerith, and Under the Highwind.

There is a tacit understanding of where things are going for some I think, but they’d rather all of the above moments be funnelled down into Cloud and Aerith. And while they can recognise the writing on the wall to an extent, I don’t think there is anything wrong inherently in wanting those scenes to be for Cloud and Aerith. But there comes a point where if you want to be arguing reasonably you have to accept that the way things have been set up doesn’t suggest in any strong way, that we will be seeing these things for Cloud and Aerith.

To come back to the church, it’s Zack’s nexus point. Much like how I think for Cloud… it’s Nibelheim, and the water tower, like how it is for Tifa. Part 3 will affirm this or it won’t in the Lifestream, but I think it will if it follows the original.

But for Zack, it’s Aerith’s church. It’s their spot. One they spent years spending time in, getting to know each other, falling in love. It’s where Zack keeps coming back to now, no matter the time, place, or dimension, he keeps being drawn back to their place, and I can’t interpret that in any other way as to it being one long drawn out tease for Part 3, when somehow Zack finds himself back there again but this time Aerith will also be there, thus facilitating their reunion.
 
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