SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LNK]

I Don't think it matters if Cloud forgives Sephiroth or not, he remembers him. As in he has knowledge of who he is. That's all Sephiroth needs. His hatred for Cloud allows him to maintain his individual existence within the Lifestream, Cloud's memories of Sephiroth give him an anchor in the living world. I see why you're conflating the two, but it's not required that Cloud remember him in a vengeful or angry way, just to remember him at all. Even a fond "he really was a good guy once, I miss that" memory does the job.

Oh I agree that Cloud doesn't need to have those negative emotions in order to remember Sephiroth. But, those negative emotions are the driving force to his memory of Sephiroth. Every memory of Sephiroth has to do with the pain he's caused Cloud. My interpretation of the ending of AC implies that Cloud no longer has those negative emotions towards Sephiroth, so he will no longer even think of Sephiroth. Add in DoC which doesn't have Sephiroth at all (which is odd if he was capable of returning), I think it's safe to come to the conclusion he is indeed gone.

I am open to him not being gone though. I think the ending of AC was vague enough to conclude Sephiroth could come back

 

[abzy1200]

Since we are on the topic of Advent Children, at the end of the film after Denzel is healed of his geostigma, does Tifa blow a kiss at Cloud? If I look really hard it kinda looks like it, but I don't know if it's some kind of confirmation bias so I just want to hear what ye think, I guess.

 

[Yoru]

Since we are on the topic of Advent Children, at the end of the film after Denzel is healed of his geostigma, does Tifa blow a kiss at Cloud? If I look really hard it kinda looks like it, but I don't know if it's some kind of confirmation bias so I just want to hear what ye think, I guess.

It's more a question of Tifa's "emblematic" head movement.



You can call it "eyes of love" lol

 

[Sacky]

Since we are on the topic of Advent Children, at the end of the film after Denzel is healed of his geostigma, does Tifa blow a kiss at Cloud? If I look really hard it kinda looks like it, but I don't know if it's some kind of confirmation bias so I just want to hear what ye think, I guess.

i also thought this XD

alright guys she blowing a kiss or not?

 

[Yoru]

For me, it's always been a "I hope you're well rested, big boy, because tonight I expect you to be energetic in bed" look.

But people are going to accuse the Cloti of being just big perverts, so I won't say more.

 

[nars305]

I’m genuinely curious of how long interpretations like this have been used in the debate? I ask because I’ve yet to see something that isn’t something like this.

Like I completely understand interpretation…but am I wrong to see this as reaching?

It makes me wonder what even is the debate? That Cloud only loved Aerith? He met her and forgot about Tifa? He settled for Tifa after she dies?

 

[Yoru]

View attachment 16252

I’m genuinely curious of how long interpretations like this have been used in the debate? I ask because I’ve yet to see something that isn’t something like this.

Like I completely understand interpretation…but am I wrong to see this as reaching?

It makes me wonder what even is the debate? That Cloud only loved Aerith? He met her and forgot about Tifa? He settled for Tifa after she dies?

All I see is a dangerous concentration of copium. Don't light a match next to it, as there's a risk of explosion.

 

[nars305]

All I see is a dangerous concentration of copium. Don't light a match next to it, as there's a risk of explosion.

Lmao, I don’t engage with anyone. It’s just interesting I guess. Like a morbid curiosity.

I mean the LTD is interesting, but it’s never really “fun” it seems to discuss it. Back in the day I loved talking about The Last of Us and if Joel was right or wrong for what he did. It was interesting to see how people interpreted the end and the game as a whole that led up to it.

But this…I mean debating something like a kiss. It’s nuts.

 

[imach0c0]

I've seen discourse where the Loveless Play is the representative of the love story between CA.

TBH, although Cloud was Alphried, most of that storyline felt like it could be applied to ZA. However, the part that can apply to Cloud specifically is when Varvados says: "o puppet of fate" and the lines after that.

Is Alphreid Cloud, Zack or both?

Thoughts?

 

[imach0c0]

Lmao, I don’t engage with anyone. It’s just interesting I guess. Like a morbid curiosity.

I mean the LTD is interesting, but it’s never really “fun” it seems to discuss it. Back in the day I loved talking about The Last of Us and if Joel was right or wrong for what he did. It was interesting to see how people interpreted the end and the game as a whole that led up to it.

But this…I mean debating something like a kiss. It’s nuts.

Did you interpret Cloud holding Aerith's hand in the HA GS date as him mutually responding romantically to Aerith's feelings?

 

[Yoru]

Did you interpret Cloud holding Aerith's hand in the HA GS date as him mutually responding romantically to Aerith's feelings?

In her HA GS date, she's asking him "until the ride ends" ... I mean... It's not really something you ask to someone if you feel you're sharing the same feelings. It's borderline asking for pity.

I'm sorry I always agree and try to not dismiss CA moments in the game. But it's not a romantic moment at all...

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Oh I agree that Cloud doesn't need to have those negative emotions in order to remember Sephiroth. But, those negative emotions are the driving force to his memory of Sephiroth. Every memory of Sephiroth has to do with the pain he's caused Cloud. My interpretation of the ending of AC implies that Cloud no longer has those negative emotions towards Sephiroth, so he will no longer even think of Sephiroth. Add in DoC which doesn't have Sephiroth at all (which is odd if he was capable of returning), I think it's safe to come to the conclusion he is indeed gone.

It's really not odd that Sephiroth isn't in DoC whether he can return or not. He'll always be Cloud's most personal nemesis, but that doesn't require he be behind every crisis. Not every Spider-Man story features Norman Osborn, Lex Luthor isn't the only problem Superman deals with, Batman has far more problems than just the Joker. Besides, DoC isn't Cloud's game, it's Vinnie's

I am open to him not being gone though. I think the ending of AC was vague enough to conclude Sephiroth could come back

Agreed, if they want him back that door is still open with no need to justify it further.

Since we are on the topic of Advent Children, at the end of the film after Denzel is healed of his geostigma, does Tifa blow a kiss at Cloud? If I look really hard it kinda looks like it, but I don't know if it's some kind of confirmation bias so I just want to hear what ye think, I guess.

For me, it's always been a "I hope you're well rested, big boy, because tonight I expect you to be energetic in bed" look.

But people are going to accuse the Cloti of being just big perverts, so I won't say more.

I have always read that look as "you are so getting laid tonight" since my first viewing, for what it's worth.

All I see is a dangerous concentration of copium. Don't light a match next to it, as there's a risk of explosion.

Copium is known to be flammable, to the point of escalating flame wars when used inappropriately. Stay safe!

 

[Ryeleigh]

Since we are on the topic of Advent Children, at the end of the film after Denzel is healed of his geostigma, does Tifa blow a kiss at Cloud? If I look really hard it kinda looks like it, but I don't know if it's some kind of confirmation bias so I just want to hear what ye think, I guess.

It's really faint but you can catch it in a gif.

 

[abzy1200]

TBH, although Cloud was Alphried, most of that storyline felt like it could be applied to ZA. However, the part that can apply to Cloud specifically is when Varvados says: "o puppet of fate" and the lines after that.

The play features two lovers, the man vows to return to her, and if I remember correctly he "knows exactly where to find her", and the woman claims she will wait for his return.

Who spends almost an entire year fighting to return to a place where he knows his lover is after being gone? Zack.

Who spends 5 years waiting for his return in the same spot? Aerith.

In regards to the "o puppet of fate," I think it's about both. The connection to Cloud is obvious, him being a "puppet" has been alluded to dozens of times at this point.

For Zack, from what I gather, omniAerith(?) and omniSephiroth(?) are having some sort of tug of war over "fate," and Zack is caught right in the middle of it. So I guess he can also be referred to as a "puppet of fate," just in a slightly different way than Cloud.

I have always read that look as "you are so getting laid tonight" since my first viewing, for what it's worth.

and he has a big stupid smile on his face after he sees her, for what it's worth

 

[Maidenofwar]

What is romantic about the CA GS date because for Rebirth's Ultimania Cloud's profile page states the dates can be romantic (Cloud and Aerith screenshot or funny, Cloud with Yuffie), the devs also said some dates/ bonds were more romantic, some more family.

 

[nars305]

Did you interpret Cloud holding Aerith's hand in the HA GS date as him mutually responding romantically to Aerith's feelings?

I do think it’s intimate. Aerith always holds Cloud’s arm but this time he changed it for them to hold hands. So it’s intimate, but is it romantic? Is it just complicated? Because Aerith has complicated feelings?

I’ll just give my full thoughts. I don’t think it’s right or proves anything, it’s just my interpretation.

Aerith brings up Zack, which I wonder why. She says she wants to be with Cloud right now, and she’s trying to find him…but…

She knows he’s not the “real Cloud”. So is this what complicated her feelings? Who is she falling for?

Then Cloud asks if Tifa talked to her, which we know about what and as they both do, she lies and says no.

So Aerith in this moment knows Cloud recently remembered Zack, and not just remembered Zack. Tifa specifically says that he also remembered Zack was his friend.

Now Cloud in this moment hears Aerith talking about Zack and finds she still doesn’t know he’s dead. Kind of awkward, because Cloud “knows” how he died.

So then she holds Cloud, and he holds her hand. So with all this context, is it romantic or is it comfort? Aerith just said she wants to be with the real Cloud, which he’s not, and Cloud hears her talking about Zack who he knows who died. Is that really romantic?


Then I have to consider Tifa’s date, where it’s nothing but romantic, and where he kisses her. I don’t think Cloud would kiss Tifa if he had feelings for Aerith.

 

[LNK]

It's really not odd that Sephiroth isn't in DoC whether he can return or not. He'll always be Cloud's most personal nemesis, but that doesn't require he be behind every crisis. Not every Spider-Man story features Norman Osborn, Lex Luthor isn't the only problem Superman deals with, Batman has far more problems than just the Joker. Besides, DoC isn't Cloud's game, it's Vinnie's

I'm not saying Sephiroth has to be behind every crisis. But, if one is going to say Sephiroth isn't gone post AC, it's odd that there is no actual evidence of him still being there. Especially in the game that the main enemy wanted to suck up all the Lifestream of the Planet and fly off elsewhere, leaving said planet to die. Yet we don't see the man who has bent the Lifestream to his will at all? Not even a tincie wincie bit? Hmmmm, could it be he was actually gone for the final time and not coming back?

Agreed, if they want him back that door is still open with no need to justify it further.

Sure, but the back door can also be closed with no need to justify it further. Tis' all I'm saying

 

[Yoru]

There are 3 major moments when Aerith and Cloud are very close physically.

The GS date: She imposes herself on him. She tells him clearly in words, "please, let me enjoy this moment". It's not an exchange of glances or anything. There's no real call for interpretation. She needs tenderness at this point because she's just been talking about Zack, whom Cloud describes as dead. So it's more comfort > romance.

Church date: She asks for forgiveness for what she's about to do, then comes and throws herself into his arms. He says nothing, and chooses to respond by hugging her as well. The preceding discussion is vague and super ambiguous, but this moment can clearly be considered romantic.

Aerith's death: I'm not a big fan of talking about romance when the subject of the scene is someone's death. There's no kiss good-bye. There's tenderness. Everyone can see what they want, but personally I find it creepy to talk about romance.

tl;dr : The church date is way more romantic than any other moment in the game, GS date included.

 

[imach0c0]

There are 3 major moments when Aerith and Cloud are very close physically.

The GS date: She imposes herself on him. She tells him clearly in words, "please, let me enjoy this moment". It's not an exchange of glances or anything. There's no real call for interpretation. She needs tenderness at this point because she's just been talking about Zack, whom Cloud describes as dead. So it's more comfort > romance.

Church date: She asks for forgiveness for what she's about to do, then comes and throws herself into his arms. He says nothing, and chooses to respond by hugging her as well. The preceding discussion is vague and super ambiguous, but this moment can clearly be considered romantic.

Aerith's death: I'm not a big fan of talking about romance when the subject of the scene is someone's death. There's no kiss good-bye. There's tenderness. Everyone can see what they want, but personally I find it creepy to talk about romance.

tl;dr : The church date is way more romantic than any other moment in the game, GS date included.

The way I interpreted all 3 examples you mentioned was people comforting each other. The dream date could be romantic; if it was, it felt one-sided from Aerith's end. Cloud is hard to read during that whole sequence. Having said that, I struggle to see a romantic response from Cloud's end.

 

[Yoru]

The way I interpreted all 3 examples you mentioned was people comforting each other. The dream date could be romantic; if it was, it felt one-sided from Aerith's end. Cloud is hard to read during that whole sequence. Having said that, I struggle to see a romantic implication from his end.

My personal opinion is that no moment between Aerith and Cloud is totally romantic in Rebirth. I think it's pretty clear from his body and facial animations (which cost a ton of money and are therefore done with great care and vision) that he simply doesn't see her as a woman with whom he wants to share more than friendship.

However, I try to be fair to people who love Aerith and Cloud. And for me, trying to be as objective as possible, it's their hug in the church that's really romantic. He responds immediately to her coming into his arms, there's almost no hesitation. They exchange very few words. It's just peaceful and romantic.

 

[ChaosandConfusion]

Is there anything in the compilation from Cloud's pov because it seems like he kind of goes where the wind blows.
And I might be in the minority but they should have carried over the cattiness (from og) between the two girls over Cloud to remake if there not going to address the elephant in the room.

 

[nars305]

There are 3 major moments when Aerith and Cloud are very close physically.

The GS date: She imposes herself on him. She tells him clearly in words, "please, let me enjoy this moment". It's not an exchange of glances or anything. There's no real call for interpretation. She needs tenderness at this point because she's just been talking about Zack, whom Cloud describes as dead. So it's more comfort > romance.

Church date: She asks for forgiveness for what she's about to do, then comes and throws herself into his arms. He says nothing, and chooses to respond by hugging her as well. The preceding discussion is vague and super ambiguous, but this moment can clearly be considered romantic.

Aerith's death: I'm not a big fan of talking about romance when the subject of the scene is someone's death. There's no kiss good-bye. There's tenderness. Everyone can see what they want, but personally I find it creepy to talk about romance.

tl;dr : The church date is way more romantic than any other moment in the game, GS date included.

I think that the GS and Church are similar. They both seem to me to be Aerith saying what she wants to feel and it conflicting with how she really feels.

You’re not him and that’s okay seems like she’s talking to herself, not really Cloud. Trying to convince herself?

I like you Cloud but there’s different likings, and again, similarly, she looks like she’s not entirely certain but trying to be.

*So it’s hard for me to feel romance when Aerith always seems conflicted.

 

[Eerie]

Is there anything in the compilation from Cloud's pov because it seems like he kind of goes where the wind blows.

Yes, the latest novella bit which is when he joined Shinra army, basically. And where he thought, twice I think that he wanted to become a special existence to Tifa. This is the bits that Nojima said it would help understand Cloud's mind entering Rebirth lol so personally I take it as it is.

But I know next game is going to adress CA (as I said it does not work within the game story nor the Compilation) by simply adressing ZA and CT. The Lifestream scene, to me, looks very promising, considering the hints we've gotten in Rebirth. Just look what we got so far in Remake and Rebirth, knowing that it's p3 that's the CT part in the OG... yeah. There's no turning around there.

 

[imach0c0]

Yes, the latest novella bit which is when he joined Shinra army, basically. And where he thought, twice I think that he wanted to become a special existence to Tifa. This is the bits that Nojima said it would help understand Cloud's mind entering Rebirth lol so personally I take it as it is.

But I know next game is going to adress CA (as I said it does not work within the game story nor the Compilation) by simply adressing ZA and CT. The Lifestream scene, to me, looks very promising, considering the hints we've gotten in Rebirth. Just look what we got so far in Remake and Rebirth, knowing that it's p3 that's the CT part in the OG... yeah. There's no turning around there.

Address CA in what way?

 

[shady]

I think there is a fine line in Rebirth between Romantic and Platonic and the writing and depiction of both Cloud and Tifa and Cloud and Aerith's storylines do different things when it comes to the line

Strictly Romantic - Cloud x Tifa

The Line/Middle Ground - Cloud x Aerith

Strictly Platonic​

What I mean by this is that there are multiple moments in Rebirth that can't be considered anything but Romantic, a nearly kiss, confirmation of "mutual feelings" in the moment, staring at them with a smile on your face whilst they aren't looking and an actual kiss between Cloud and Tifa - as well as more - are moments that can't be misconstrued, aint nobody going to believe these are things you just do with someone if they are your strictly your friend. These are things you cannot just back up on now in Part 3, because people will start to question will hang on, you had Cloud and Tifa nearly kiss, as well as kiss (even if you say dates are non canon the general public won't see it that way) and then you just dump all that like they didn't happen just to make Cloud kiss/end up with Aerith at the end, what? That would be terrible storywriting and characterisation especially with what we know are big moments coming up between the two in Part 3.

However with Cloud and Aerith I feel like they straddle the line between Romantic and Platonic enough to the point there is no moment between them that I feel like "there is a point of no return now" depicting friendly interactions between them or Cloud being upset at her death is not Romantic, and things like the hand holding and "dates" can be considered romantic obviously but then others interpret them as comforting or platonic depending on the context, or even related to Zack and Aerith's memories of him (S5 date, depending on how you interpret this, i'd love the Directors commentary on this scene) Then of course there is the one sided confession from Aerith where she herself is conflicted on if she even likes Cloud romantically or platonically, you cannot get more middle ground if you tried. It would seem to me she'd like to have the opportunity to know which way she likes Cloud but never gets said opportunity for obvious reasons.

Being an adult about this, I would like to think as adult characters the so called "elephants in the room" aka peoples feelings are addressed in Part 3, namely;

Zack and Aerith's reunion - They need to resolve the idea whether Aerith "like likes" Cloud because that is the impression Zack seems to be under due to Marlene's comments, not to mention Aerith herself wrestling with the idea on if she does or not, there's no way they don't address this.

Real Cloud and Tifa's reunion - The Lifestream is a perfect moment to - again - brandish the mutual feelings between both characters, however this time both Cloud and Tifa are already closer than ever and their relationship is way more developed at this point than it ever was in the OG, meaning the Lifestream has potential to be even more heart wrenching and romantic between the two.. hell, could we see an honest to god confession here from someone?

Real Cloud and Aerith meeting - I think this will happen yes, I think it will because if they want everyone to have a happy ending I think he will meet Zack and Aerith one last time to have a real conversation in order for him to move forward with his life. IF this were to happen i'd like to see them address the idea of a romance between them and if anything could have happened, and I think what should be said for closure for both of them is that, maybe in another lifetime, if Zack and Tifa never existed and Aerith wasn't tied down by destiny, who knows, but that never happened, and Zack and Tifa do exist and the reality is Cloud and Aerith have only ever loved both of them in that way respectively and they are both with the person they truly want to be with, but they part ways still loving each other as friends/family with Aerith still watching over Cloud and Tifa and everyone else. Is this cheesy as hell and unrealistic? Yeah but.. I think it would be a nice thing to cap the whole thing off of.