SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[SilverSisu]

Yeah, my working hypothesis is that For a time, Our Cloud was both of those Clouds before fully splitting off into Our Cloud and alternate Cloud. Thus both of those Clouds would have memories of Aerith both alive and Dead. Our Aerith (or maybe Omni Aerith) might actually be aware of this fact, given the pink brain pain regarding her death in the ending.

I think being crossed over with multiple other hims might also be why he sees the crack in the sky at the end as well.

That is actually pretty good theory!

 

[LNK]

Because he's not a robot. He hasn't had a lobotomy

One doesn't need to be a robot or have a lobotomy in order to let go of anger and hatred for someone though. Yes it takes a lot of forgiveness and care, but it's 100 percent possible. People do it in real life.

And since he was treated in FF7, he can no longer block memories completely like he used to. The slightest thought of Aerith from time to time, for example, automatically makes him think of Sephiroth. The dude literally fell in front of him to kill her

Yes, but this was because Cloud hadn't forgiven himself for Aerith's death. The ending of AC implies he finally had, and he was moving back towards having a happy life with Tifa and the kids.

So I'm sorry, but I disagree and don't think your logic really works

It's fine if you disagree, but the logic definitely works. As I said, it happens in real life. Not everyone stays hating people forever.

At the end of AC Cloud has the psychological upper hand. Basically, he can come back all he wants, Cloud is stronger than him. But Sephiroth is still "alive" and as Remake and Rebirth imply... that's a problem because it gives him ENORMOUS possibilities to screw things up retrospectively.

Sephiroth BELIEVES he can come back if Cloud remembers him. There's nothing that I've seen that implies he can come back without Cloud doing that. If Re trilogy ends before AC like I think it will, that won't change

So yeah, we won't agree and have to wait how they setup things in the 3rd game

For sure!

 

[Yoru]

Sephiroth BELIEVES he can come back if Cloud remembers him. There's nothing that I've seen that implies he can come back without Cloud doing that. If Re trilogy ends before AC like I think it will, that won't change

We've seen two things in the FF7 universe:

• Sephiroth is active on the non-living plane aka the Lifestream. He can peek in the planet's history, he can give people a weird cancer etc etc. His latest feat is to have taken control of some of the Whispers. One of the most powerful "weapons" of the planet.
• Sephiroth is active on the living plane. He can take control of people with Jenova cells. Act through them. Speak through them. And even without doing anything, the Jenova cells' priority is to join their counterparts. It's automatic.

What I mean is... If you keep things as they are in AC. Sephiroth will ALWAYS be there. Of course, Cloud is his last link with the living, material world. But he can still do all those shenaningans in the Lifestream. That's the whole point of his human part. To have the ability to be part of the Lifestream, unlike Jenova or the Gii.

Sephiroth in the Lifestream is a problem. They have to adress it.

 

[LNK]

Sephiroth in the Lifestream is a problem. They have to adress it.

Post AC ending, there isn't evidence of him still being in the Lifestream though. Plus, as long as Cloud continues on the path he was after AC, Sephiroth won't be able to return. I think the devs can choose to have a more definitive ending if they WANT. I just don't think it's necessary.

If they did go the definitive route, it'd be interesting to see how they go about showing it though. Whatever they choose to do, I'm sure it'll be done well

 

[Yoru]

Post AC ending, there isn't evidence of him still being in the Lifestream though.

The evidence is Remake and Rebirth lol.

If they really commit to the idea of Sephiroth coming back from AC of course (Black One Winged, the OST, etc)

Maybe it's just a retcon and some fanservice. Totally could be the case.

We'll have to wait and see

 

[LNK]

The evidence is Remake and Rebirth lol.

As far as I know Remake and Rebirth aren't post AC though. Nor is Sephiroth. Sure, he has knowledge of the future, but that doesn't mean he's actually from the future.

But, if he is indeed from the future, it'll definitely be interesting to see what's done in the third game.

 

[Ryushikaze]

We do know there are two distinct Sephiroths with two distinct agendas. One has future knowledge and the other does not. In fact one seems to be completely unaware of the other, by design.

 

[Makoeyes987]

We do know there are two distinct Sephiroths with two distinct agendas. One has future knowledge and the other does not. In fact one seems to be completely unaware of the other, by design.

The "other" Sephiroth is the Sephiroth who manifests thanks to his ability to control the Arbiters of Fate. That's what the Ch18 Sephiroth is, one that manifested via the Whispers.

They're all in the end, Sephiroth. The reason he knew things is thanks to his ability to control fate and read the knowledge that the Planet has.

 

[Rin]

Post AC ending, there isn't evidence of him still being in the Lifestream though

But where else would he be? If he's not in the LS then he's like the Gi, existing for eternity without being able to return. But we know that's not the case otherwise he'd still be wreaking havoc physically. We didn't see him get sealed off, he just "disappears". Yazoo, Loz and Kadaj go back to the LS, too, and they are apart of Sephiroth himself.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What do you think Aerith's purifying, healing rain was for?

Sephiroth along with his remnants were purified. Sephiroth's will inevitably becomes fragmented upon death and is purified upon getting recycled again. That's why Geostigma can be cured.

 

[Yoru]

What do you think Aerith's purifying, healing rain was for?

Sephiroth along with his remnants were purified. Sephiroth's will inevitably becomes fragmented upon death and is purified upon getting recycled again. That's why Geostigma can be cured.

She cured people of their Jenova stuff sure.
But Sephiroth is more than that. That's why he's dangerous in the first place. His human part is compatible with the Lifestream.

Anyway, I'll stop here, as we're going round in circles and polluting the main subject of this channel, which is reserved for LTD.

Even if everyone knows that the real LTD is Tifa > Cloud < Sephiroth

 

[LNK]

But where else would he be? If he's not in the LS then he's like the Gi, existing for eternity without being able to return. But we know that's not the case otherwise he'd still be wreaking havoc physically. We didn't see him get sealed off, he just "disappears". Yazoo, Loz and Kadaj go back to the LS, too, and they are apart of Sephiroth himself.

To add onto what Mako said, he's dissolved into the Lifestream. He no longer exists any different from how others dissolve into it. Same thing happened to Aerith and Zack at the end of AC.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Oh, now I remember what else I wanted to comment on but sorry, I'm too lazy to look for the comment it would've been in response to. But basically, why hasn't Zack dissolved into the lifestream? Since Rebirth added this description to the region:

In ancient times, Gongaga was settled by descendants of the Cetra, who lived in quiet seclusion.

I thought maybe Zack has some Cetra ancentry? It might be funny too because Zack haters would probably be livid about it, lol.

 

[imach0c0]

The evidence is Remake and Rebirth lol.

If they really commit to the idea of Sephiroth coming back from AC of course (Black One Winged, the OST, etc)

Maybe it's just a retcon and some fanservice. Totally could be the case.

We'll have to wait and see

I get what you mean. Cause in AC, Sephiroth says: "I will never be a memory" which implies that he is not gone forever. So if remake project leads into AC, it means Sephiroth has technically won. If remake project wants to destroy Sephiroth once and for all, I can see why remake project would have to end after AC.

Also - narratively, what is the point of Cloud going through a HUGE redemption arc and dealing with the loss to only relapse and suffer like he does in AC? I mean that is also plausible cause even when people recover from trauma, they relapse. So I guess leading into AC could work.

I guess it really depends on what the narrative message they are going with at the end of remake.

 

[LNK]

If remake project wants to destroy Sephiroth once and for all, I can see why remake project would have to end after AC.

This has never been the case for the remake project though. When it comes down to it, it's still a remake of ff7. It's not going to end wildly different.

The ending will be a little different, but it'll still lead into AC like ff7 did

 

[abzy1200]

The ending will be a little different, but it'll still lead into AC like ff7 did

Apparently Nomura had a "knowing smile" when he said this, so it does make me a bit worried where the re;trilogy is going.

 

[imach0c0]

This has never been the case for the remake project though. When it comes down to it, it's still a remake of ff7. It's not going to end wildly different.

The ending will be a little different, but it'll still lead into AC like ff7 did

I have heard discrepancies with the translation regarding "leading up" VS "linking to" AC. So its hard to say what that actually means because linking can also imply being relevant to AC. So I am not attached to the idea that remake will directly lead into AC.

Its also interesting why the devs would say remake leads into AC cause that kinda reveals the ending. Sure, we don't know how the journey will unfold but given AC's ending we know the destination. It makes me wonder why they would, for a lack of better word, "spoil" the ending.

 

[LNK]

I have heard discrepancies with the translation regarding "leading up" VS "linking to" AC. So its hard to say what that actually means because linking can also imply being relevant to AC. So I am not attached to the idea that remake will directly lead into AC.

I'm the opposite. They've spent 9+ years saying the trilogy is a remake of ff7. At this point, I'd be very surprised if the ending of the trilogy, didn't lead into AC in the manner ff7 did.

Its also interesting why the devs would say remake leads into AC cause that kinda reveals the ending. Sure, we don't know how the journey will unfold but given AC's ending we know the destination. It makes me wonder why they would, for a lack of better word, "spoil" the ending.

Sure, but isn't that what remakes inherently do? We already knew what the ending is going to be like before even playing the game.

 

[Sacky]

So rewatching lifestream OG. What does Tifa mean she heard Cloud calling out to her. When she is getting overwhelmed by the voices?

 

[nars305]

So rewatching lifestream OG. What does Tifa mean she heard Cloud calling out to her. When she is getting overwhelmed by the voices?

Do you mean the UTH part? I never understood in the LS scene when Tifa is in black what she is hearing and why she says “I would never do that” or something and starts running.

Edit:

This part I was confused about too:

 

[Yoru]

Do you mean the UTH part? I never understood in the LS scene when Tifa is in black what she is hearing and why she says “I would never do that” or something and starts running.

Edit:

This part I was confused about too:


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I think it's the dead talking to her. Voices from the Lifestream (same thing with the Whispers screaming at the end of Remake)
Maybe people dead during Avalanche bombs ? Maybe just lamenting souls, I don't remember something explaining it.

We know thanks to Remake that she's afraid of ghosts. So it may be linked.

 

[Sacky]

I think it's the dead talking to her. Voices from the Lifestream (same thing with the Whispers screaming at the end of Remake)
Maybe people dead during Avalanche bombs ? Maybe just lamenting souls, I don't remember something explaining it.

We know thanks to Remake that she's afraid of ghosts. So it may be linked.

k im predicting this will be a horror scene part with them screaming at her in part 3 then

 

[Ryushikaze]

The "other" Sephiroth is the Sephiroth who manifests thanks to his ability to control the Arbiters of Fate. That's what the Ch18 Sephiroth is, one that manifested via the Whispers.

They're all in the end, Sephiroth. The reason he knew things is thanks to his ability to control fate and read the knowledge that the Planet has.

I didn't mean to imply he was a fake or anything, just that the Ch18 arbiter of fate Sephiroth has a slightly different agenda from and is not communicating with the sephiroth we know from OG.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@LNK: I Don't think it matters if Cloud forgives Sephiroth or not, he remembers him. As in he has knowledge of who he is. That's all Sephiroth needs. His hatred for Cloud allows him to maintain his individual existence within the Lifestream, Cloud's memories of Sephiroth give him an anchor in the living world. I see why you're conflating the two, but it's not required that Cloud remember him in a vengeful or angry way, just to remember him at all. Even a fond "he really was a good guy once, I miss that" memory does the job.

I was paraphrasing Servo himself, though the wife does find my voice sexy, so...

Forgive me, I missed the reference and anti-ed your joke with my own. Servo's line clicked as soon as you said this

A little over 14 years, in fact.

Time flies and stands still at the same time.

Sometimes it's 2024, sometimes it's 1997, sometimes it's all the time in between. All it takes is a jump to the left.

I wanna get to the "step to the right." Specifically "right" as a synonym for "correct"

We needed more stupid cursed fusions. Luke Yamcha and Krillin. become Krimcha or Yallin. Or Krillin and Trunks could form Krunks, the most stoned earth defender, finally unseating Chiaotzu.

Picolloku/Gokollo! Vegetunks/Trungeta! Bulchi/Chi-ma! Grab the fusion bands from DB Fusions and anything is possible.

Changing subjects only slightly, all the characters in TF and TF2 are paid mercs. You know who else is a badass Mercenary? Cloud. Imagine him (and the rest of the crew) meeting the TF2 gang.

Cloud for 10th class! But yeah, I don't see them getting along super well, which is like as not to be entertaining.

It's a defense mechanism gone awry, basically.

Survival situations call for a knife's edge balance of confidence and caution. Some folks fall off the edge, all the more likely when it's not life or death anymore.

Until they accept the facts of the matter, yes. So possibly always.

To be clear I was specifically referencing Time Adventure from Adventure Time's series finale.

Spray the "bubbles" everywhere!

That's how you make Best Friends with hide and seek buddies.

Sonic's greatest enemy. Waiting.

Sonic CD was best for this. Wait too long? Sonic quits.

Yoda was, I think, mostly irritated at Luke's defeatism and being a sassy bastard about it rather than trying to dispense glorious sage wisdom.

Now tell the rest of the internet.

I can but hope it amused.

You need not hope, for it is known.

That sounds similar to the way I produce the stereo effect. It's much easier to do when pitching low and raspy.

Does it involve some throat tension? Like you're making a loose fist with the musculature around your larynx?

Yeah that would do it.

If we skip the full 15 from Dirge, she'll be 34, making her one year younger than Barret at the start of 7 and remake. Fun fact, he celebrates a birthday during the bouncing around the planet. Actually probably around when they're in Costa del Sol or Corel.

Happy birthday Barret! No wonder he kept the sailor suit, it's a self-birthday present.

Some do, yeah. I've said before, there are two types of people who hate being wrong. There's the type who strive to be correct and the type who just refuse to admit they were ever wrong.

Aside from the people who just don't care, that's about everyone.

Aerith being dead is I think part of why the LTD is so long lasting, but also why it gets to insane, since it means things "ending up" C/A are always just a bit off kilter.

Agreed. If Aerith hadn't died, Cloud would still be with Tifa, which would be enough to stop a lot of Cleriths from CAltists all by itself. Also shipping Cloud with Aerith doesn't require so much "what the christ?!" if Aerith isn't dead.

It does serve as a neat microcosm of things that happen in the wider world, yes.

Of course that's true of debate in general, isn't it? Even the old "who would win if X fought Y?" debates.

The usual suspects, basically. Anastar, Cali, etc.

Have we made the obvious ABC joke concerning Anastar, BlankBeat and Cali? I don't remember it but with hindsight it jumps out at me.

Plus they've Already Been Chewed up and spat out around here, so

It was a pretty common joke. And yeah, I have found the one constant with culty cleriths is that everything is permitted so long as it furthers the goal of convincing people C/A is endgame. Even if it contradicts the story, even if it contradicts what you said five minutes ago.

It is known. I'm surprised never to have heard "Cloud despises Aerith, which proves he loves Aerith!" It'd barely be an exaggeration honestly.

I did find a good chunk of them posted recently, so that'll help.

We're gettin' the band back together.

Now I'm imagining Aerith but Bostonian. Maybe in the nonsense TF2.FF7 crossover Scout is from Midgar.

That's where I'd put him, yeah. There or maybe Junon. The other mercs are harder to place.

Oh yeah, they were calculated, but not prophetic. Reeve has access to information but he's not a prognosticator, he just play acts like one.

Very good, we agree.

10 pages maybe?

Yeah, that fits.

You have to have standards.

Without them there's basically no point.

To say what needs to be said, how it needs to be said and when is an art and I try and practice it regularly.

Well said. I'm still acclimating to shifts in the forum's culture, so for now you're more in the know on the when.

It does not excuse it, but I wonder how much of it is predicated on spite for things CALtists say and wanting to get back at them?

Around the internets, I have no idea. Here on TLS it was the primary notice for shit posting mean shit about Aerith.

I remember on a few occasions I spun a wild yarn about Aerith- noting that it was bullshit, mind you- engaging in some heinous activity, prostitution sometimes, selling hard drugs mostly- as an example of how shitty it was to hear that about Tifa and how bad it made people look to make those sort of theories legitimately.

Yeah I've done this too, and wasn't always as good at noting my own bullshit. Either way they rarely seemed to get the point.

This being the internet, I did have a few people not realize I was trying to use an object lesson and that I did not actually believe or advocate these things.

Yeah I recall whole pages of that honestly.

Aerith the weed dealer is just a delightfully silly image, though.

I recall pointing out that while this is obviously not true, it easily could have been and still fit the narrative.

"Say whatever it takes" and all that.

If only there was anything they could say that'd make a difference.

Tifa would still be there because she's on a constant GOTO loop, but yes. I mean look at how he acted the second he remembered Zack. It was massive guilt at simple the thought of forgetting Zack existed. Imagine how bad it gets when he remembers Zack died so he could live.

Cloud, as he often does, needs a hug.

It's the best course of action available to them at this moment. The right course of action would involve stopping everything and working through his problems but both Shinra and Sephiroth kibosh that plan by virtue of being on their tail and fucking with Cloud respectively.

I tend to agree, stopping to handle things wasn't a viable option. There were no viable options, they just took the nonviable option that took longer to go to shit.

Now I'm curious what the WIR versions of the characters who know they're in a video game are like. Gilgamesh is exactly the same. He sort of already knows.

Making characters self aware us always fun. Think we can talk Sephiroth into coming to Badanon meetings? Might be good for him.

I'd have to double check but I think those were gray static moments, too. Meaning his subconscious was doing it.

They were. That was all Cloud keeping Zack in the vault.

Could be. It's definitely a him thing. The brain flashes are color coded and gray static is used in OG, Remake and Every Crisis to represent real Cloud.

Yup.

Feel free. She knocked down the center channel on my home theater the other day so a tiny bit of extra blame will do her no harm.

Ahhhh kitties. Until I had kids, never had I loved something so inconvenient so much.

You have to wonder how much of Cloud being casually superhuman without Jenova is genetic and how much is due to constant mako exposure from playing around on mt nibel as a child.

You'd think more of Nibelheim would be like that if it was environmental. Though now I wonder if Claudia had this in her too.

He's like if Thor thought he was just Donald Blake and desperately wanted to become Captain America even as he is just sort of absent mindedly lifting cars to look for lost pets.

This is both hilarious and accurate.

It's also a nice bookend for when he absolutely does rescue the girl when she's in a pinch in the final moments of the game.

Also arriving in Edge to save her and Denzel.

Do you think Cloud practiced that boomerang sword throw? Or did he learn it from watching Yuffie, as he seems to have learned the sword from watching Zack and Sephiroth?

 

[Yoru]

What do you think Aerith's purifying, healing rain was for?

Sephiroth along with his remnants were purified. Sephiroth's will inevitably becomes fragmented upon death and is purified upon getting recycled again. That's why Geostigma can be cured.

Why do you think she let people die for weeks/months when she could have just invoked a downpour and avoided a lot of misfortune? She could even have saved Cloud from sinking into depression by curing Denzel and Cloud himself.

Real question. Not a petty attack to get the last word. I sincerely wonder.

Plothole?



Because when she does this, Kadaj and his brothers are still around. And Sephiroth has not been summoned yet. So she doesn't need to purify them first to heal Geostigma