SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Fakewings_]

Honestly, I have to force myself to review the dream date scene, to understand Cloud's attitude to Aerith's confession. From surprise, then shifting to confusion, mixed with a hint of guilt (SE did a good job conveying the character's emotions - shown through eye movements - looking down and shifting left, right, and mouth movements). It contrasts with the direct gaze and affirming words to Tifa: 'Not one bite.'
The camera also describes Cloud's face more when he embraces Aerith. It feels quite sad. Perhaps Cloud feels that something isn't right with Aerith, and he's trying to think of ways to comfort her.
If this scene is meant to depict Cloud reciprocating Aerith's feelings, then it should show either a tight embrace (like with Tifa in the Remake), or a verbal affirmation of emotions like Cloud did with Tifa (in the GSD). And of course, Cloud didn't do either of those things.
Despite the analyses above, I feel uncomfortable with this dream date, or more precisely, the way this scenario is constructed. Perhaps from my perspective, Cloud in the dream date has a (rather) contentious attitude, neither rejecting nor advancing.

 

[GamerSkull]

I really wish the Ultimania had shed more light on it. I think some elaboration would certainly help with how much everyone seems to read something differently from the Dream Date.

Although I will say, cutting away to Zack multiple times throughout it has to mean something. The writers made the deliberate choice to do that… rather than keep them separate.

 

[Yoru]

But don’t you see that street lamp on Tifa’s side? Those can be lit using gas, so it’s a subtle hint that she’s gaslighting Cloud.

I need to stop lol I’m starting to feel mean.

I see I'm not the only cook here.

Honestly, I have to force myself to review the dream date scene, to understand Cloud's attitude to Aerith's confession. From surprise, then shifting to confusion, mixed with a hint of guilt (SE did a good job conveying the character's emotions - shown through eye movements - looking down and shifting left, right, and mouth movements). It contrasts with the direct gaze and affirming words to Tifa: 'Not one bite.'
The camera also describes Cloud's face more when he embraces Aerith. It feels quite sad. Perhaps Cloud feels that something isn't right with Aerith, and he's trying to think of ways to comfort her.
If this scene is meant to depict Cloud reciprocating Aerith's feelings, then it should show either a tight embrace (like with Tifa in the Remake), or a verbal affirmation of emotions like Cloud did with Tifa (in the GSD). And of course, Cloud didn't do either of those things.
Despite the analyses above, I feel uncomfortable with this dream date, or more precisely, the way this scenario is constructed. Perhaps from my perspective, Cloud in the dream date has a (rather) contentious attitude, neither rejecting nor advancing.

That's why this scene is more symbolic than anything else for me. Aerith is a bit strange (but that's understandable when you know what happens to her in this game) but Cloud is even stranger. From cold, to pissed off (when he doesn't get what he wants at the store) to literally a kid asking his mom "Wow, what's going on there?! I want to go and see". Bro ! He's on the verge of hopping on the spot.

So, yeah. My opinion is that the whole dream is a glimpse into the psyche of the characters, Cloud having several (what a coincidence...).

 

[Sacky]

Someone just used the Wacdonalds interview as proof in 2024 i fear its over this fandom will never heal. If people still use the obviously fake Japan interview from early 2000's as evidence today. I must ask do people check whatever bullshit they find to see if it is factual, or if it fits there agenda, do they just accept it?

 

[GamerSkull]

Someone just used the Wacdonalds interview as proof in 2024 i fear its over this fandom will never heal. If people still use the obviously fake Japan interview from early 2000's as evidence today. I must ask do people check whatever bullshit they find to see if it is factual, or if it fits there agenda, do they just accept it?

People don’t fact check. They’ll typically accept any evidence that lines up with their interpretation and call it a day.

 

[Rin]

Did the devs ever say why they wanted to not leave things up to interpretation with the new stuff?
Because outside of the lifestream scene in og, I definitely thought clerith was pushed harder.
Things being spread across different medium doesn't help.(still need to play remake)

They've never fully stated why, no. But as a writer myself, I think Nojima is just tired of people misunderstanding his story, so he wants to clear the air.

 

[Yoru]

I really wish the Ultimania had shed more light on it. I think some elaboration would certainly help with how much everyone seems to read something differently from the Dream Date.

Although I will say, cutting away to Zack multiple times throughout it has to mean something. The writers made the deliberate choice to do that… rather than keep them separate.

Pretty sure that explaining it spoils the whole Lifestream/Worlds real meaning and purpose, cutting the 3rd game from a large part of its narrative.

So yeah... it really sucks but we'll have to do with our weird takes for the next 3 years...

 

[Rin]

T He doesn't have to reciprocate feelings for anyone, aerith included. Think bout the persona series. Once you get max level friendship, you have the option of romance or not. You can say no and romance someone else. Its really as simple as that in my eyes. FF7 is definitely more character driven so there is a difference but I think the same principle applies. The girl you don't chose takes the silent rejection, and accepts it. Also I believe its confirms cloud sleeps in a different bed and has his own room, maybe a translation error on that last part but pretty sure he sleeps separate and marlene always sleeps with tifa. The whole not answering the question when Tifa asks cloud if she loves him in the novel is part of the reason I don't like the extended content after the OG. It really muddies everything up and adds a lot of melodrama. The only part I liked bout the On The Way To Smile novel was the lifestream portions cuz they add to the lore of the remake. At the time of release though they were also pretty meh.

Welcome!

I just want to say, I don't think the Persona series is a good example because FF games aren't and never will be a "choose your own romance" type of game. It's not a dating simulator. You get "choices" because Cloud isn't himself but those choices are taken away from you once Cloud's true self is restored.

I don't have an issue with people believing Cloti lives together platonically post OG but that interpretation doesn't really make sense to me. Also, it is a mistranslation for the bed scene because in the JP version they're sharing a bed. There's nothing to suggest Tifa came into a separate room where he was asleep and asked if he loves her. They're laying in the same bed and she's feeling a bit neglected, he's asleep and she gathers up "the courage" to ask knowing he can't respond because he's not awake, she just needed to voice it out loud.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Welcome!

I just want to say, I don't think the Persona series is a good example because FF games aren't and never will be a "choose your own romance" type of game. It's not a dating simulator. You get "choices" because Cloud isn't himself but those choices are taken away from you once Cloud's true self is restored.

I don't have an issue with people believing Cloti lives together platonically post OG but that interpretation doesn't really make sense to me. Also, it is a mistranslation for the bed scene because in the JP version they're sharing a bed. There's nothing to suggest Tifa came into a separate room where he was asleep and asked if he loves her. They're asleep in the same bed and she's feeling a bit neglected, he's asleep and she gathers up "the courage" to ask knowing he can't respond because he's not awake, she just needed to voice it out loud.

As someone who has a partner that suffers from bouts of depression, I can understand Tifa’s feelings in that moment. My partner also explained that it isn’t unusual for the person in a relationship with someone that’s depressed to feel like they are somehow causing it.

The act of emotional withdrawal hurts both parties, which is why depression is so… depressing.

 

[abzy1200]

Something else I thought I should bring up in regards to "player choice".

Cloud and Tifa almost kiss in Gongaga "non-optionally", and no amount of gaslighting will ever convince me otherwise, here's why:

First off, we have to take into consideration the situation. Cloud and Tifa are more vulnerable and open to each other here than has ever been shown before this in re;trilogy. These are two people who have been confirmed to have mutual, deep romantic feelings for each other, and are finally beginning to really open up and trust each other.

Second, let's take a version of this scene where Tifa wasn't going to kiss him, what was she going to do? Walk up to him, close her hands around his and then just stand there looking at him? To claim she wasn't going to kiss him you would have to ignore the fact that they both inch closer to each other, that Tifa and Cloud both slightly open their mouths, and that Tifa's eyes start to flutter as she closes in.

and again, if Tifa wasn't going to do anything to him there, you must also ask yourself why the devs purposefully had Yuffie and Cait Sith posted up against the door, begging for them to kiss: "Kiss. Kiss!" (I'll tell you why, it's a trope that a romantic pairing has their moment interrupted by a third party, it might just be the most prominent, easily noticeable trope in japanese media, from what I've seen, anyway. You'll also notice that Cloud looks down towards her lips here)

Furthermore, if Tifa really wasn't going to do anything, then why did she look back at Cloud, smile, and nod at him? And then why have the camera cut to an up-close shot of him completely blown away?


So far, this is all excluding the fact that Tifa's Gold Saucer date is a direct continuation of this scene.

On the gondola, she brings up how close they are at the minute, and how she can't remember a time when they were this close, obviously talking about how open and trusting they are with each other, a development that mostly takes place throughout the game, but really blossoms in Gongaga. A few moments later she says "Or am I getting ahead of myself again"

what is really important to note here is that she says "again", what other moment in the story so far could she be referring to here other than the time she clasped Cloud's hand and inched towards his face? And judging by the fact that Cloud immediately picks up on what she means, reassures her by saying "not one bit" (I know it's slightly different in japanese, but the message is still roughly the same), and then kisses her, it's clear that Cloud and Tifa both knew the intention behind Tifa's actions in Gongaga.

In conclusion, the only reasonable interpretation of this scene is a version where they were about to kiss but were interrupted, and any other "interpretation" is being purposefully obtuse.

Just to clarify, I know that most people on this thread are already aware of everything I've said here, I wrote this as sort of a reference for myself in the future, and for any lurkers that might doubt the plausibility of Gongaga's "almost kiss".

 

[Yoru]

Welcome!

I just want to say, I don't think the Persona series is a good example because FF games aren't and never will be a "choose your own romance" type of game. It's not a dating simulator. You get "choices" because Cloud isn't himself but those choices are taken away from you once Cloud's true self is restored.

I don't have an issue with people believing Cloti lives together platonically post OG but that interpretation doesn't really make sense to me. Also, it is a mistranslation for the bed scene because in the JP version they're sharing a bed. There's nothing to suggest Tifa came into a separate room where he was asleep and asked if he loves her. They're asleep in the same bed and she's feeling a bit neglected, he's asleep and she gathers up "the courage" to ask knowing he can't respond because he's not awake, she just needed to voice it out loud.

Are we really sure "the deniers" are talking about the book and not just using the movie as source of their whole "bed controversy" ?

Because in general, reading the extra content around FF7 isn't really their forte (apart from some very specific passages).

And yes, there are two beds in Advent Children... too bad it's Marlene & Denzel's room. Because Cloud isn't going to keep a photo of Denzel's parents on his bedside table...

 

[Ryushikaze]

Someone just used the Wacdonalds interview as proof in 2024 i fear its over this fandom will never heal. If people still use the obviously fake Japan interview from early 2000's as evidence today. I must ask do people check whatever bullshit they find to see if it is factual, or if it fits there agenda, do they just accept it?

Where was this and did they get appropriately pilloried for using obviously fake bullshit?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Are we really sure "the deniers" are talking about the book and not just using the movie as source of their whole "bed controversy" ?

Because in general, reading the extra content around FF7 isn't really their forte (apart from some very specific passages).

And yes, there are two beds in Advent Children... too bad it's Marlene & Denzel's room. Because Cloud isn't going to keep a photo of Denzel's parents on his bedside table...

From back in the day, deniers used Case of Tifa and the cot were "evidence" that the two didn't sleep together.

 

[Sacky]

Where was this and did they get appropriately pilloried for using obviously fake bullshit?

it was a reddit post about someone asking if Aerith was more popular in Japan because they did their own research and it wasn't matching what
they found.

 

[abzy1200]

From back in the day, deniers used Case of Tifa and the cot were "evidence" that the two didn't sleep together.

Like I've said before, it's literally just a spare bed lmao. No evidence in favour of Clerith.

 

[Yoru]

From back in the day, deniers used Case of Tifa and the cot were "evidence" that the two didn't sleep together.

Ok! so checks notes we have to add a scene where Tifa and Cloud buy a double bed in the end credits of the last game... which makes one more scene of Cloud filling out his phone bill with the bar as his permanent home adress... which I can maybe put in common with the scene where Aerith shows us how much her phone plan costs in the Lifestream because my god that's a lot of phones ringing at the end of AC.

 

[Ryushikaze]

it was a reddit post about someone asking if Aerith was more popular in Japan because they did their own research and it wasn't matching what
they found.

Link? I promise not to touch the poop, I'm just curious.

Like I've said before, it's literally just a spare bed lmao. No evidence in favour of Clerith.

Look I know that, you know that, the inhabitants of Sentinel Island who do not make contact with the outside world know that. Pinkers in denial will say or believe anything if it means avoiding admitting Cloud loves Tifa instead of Aerith.

Ok! so checks notes we have to add a scene where Tifa and Cloud buy a double bed in the end credits of the last game... which makes one more scene of Cloud filling out his phone bill with the bar as his permanent home adress... which I can maybe put in common with the scene where Aerith shows us how much her phone plan costs in the Lifestream because my god that's a lot of phones ringing at the end of AC.

The A in AT&T stands for Aerith. She's always been the phone company, wake up sheeple!

 

[Ryeleigh]

The writing is a little weird in the novel, we don't know if its like the narrator saying cloud is the beloved of aerith or if the feeling is more reciprocated as in they both love each other. I prob lean more towards the latter cuz I feel devs really want to keep ships non-canon.

So devs want to keep ships non-canon... but the novel's koibito from the "woman" and "Ancient" automatically means mutual feelings?

Heres a reddit post unrelated to FF7 that discusses the word but redditors all say that the word, "koibito" is never used non-platonically, only romantically.

Koibito is, indeed, non-platonic. But it says nothing about reciprocity.

I'm curious to know if people are ok with the ending changing and her being alive.

I'd actually be down for that. But the only way I see that happening is if they bring both Aerith and Zack alive. .....or more alive since they're currently Schrödinger's characters, lol.

Also I don't see any set up with Zack tbh

I'm honestly curious, what do you think they're doing with Zack's character? Is he just there to take up space and time and watch Aerith walk off into the sunset with Cloud?

 

[GamerSkull]

So devs want to keep ships non-canon... but the novel's koibito from the "woman" and "Ancient" automatically means mutual feelings?


Koibito is, indeed, non-platonic. But it says nothing about reciprocity.


I'd actually be down for that. But the only way I see that happening is if they bring both Aerith and Zack alive. .....or more alive since they're currently Schrödinger's characters, lol.


I'm honestly curious, what do you think they're doing with Zack's character? Is he just there to take up space and time and watch Aerith walk off into the sunset with Cloud?

He’s obviously there for Nojima’s cuckold fetish.

Disclaimer: Joke…. Obviously.

But yeah, they should bring both Aerith and Zack back if they go that route. However, it seems that everyone wanting Aerith to come back to life do not appear to share the same sentiment for Zack, as if he doesn’t deserve to have a happy ending. I think there is some double-standard here. Hmmm….

I don’t want to put words into people’s mouth and it should go without saying that obviously this doesn’t mean all of them feel this way but…

In my experience, a majority of people that think there is no canon ship seem to lean towards Clerith. I wonder why…

 

[overheat28]

I won't wade into Cloti because it doesn't need defending. They are for all intents and purposes the only truly confirmed pair in FF7 retrilogy at this point in time. I feel it is truly pointless to even debate the canonicity of this pair.

Regarding there being no setup for Zack. All I will say is if they brought the man back and made his sole purpose getting back to Aerith (romantically, let's not beat around the bush), they're not going to end with him signing off on Clerith like so many CAs fervently desire. I am prone to dooming, but this at least I am certain of. He will get his face to face meeting with Aerith, he's earned that at the very minimum. Prophet Marlene isn't going to be enough to prevent that. He's either going to eat a full rejection to his face or get back with Aerith. Considering Gongaga, the dream date, and the soulmate setup throughout the game, I highly doubt Zack will be denied.

 

[Ryushikaze]

So devs want to keep ships non-canon... but the novel's koibito from the "woman" and "Ancient" automatically means mutual feelings?


Koibito is, indeed, non-platonic. But it says nothing about reciprocity.

Yeah, you are allowed to have a character call someone Koibito without it being returned. As a very handy Go To, Ataru Morobishi calls many women Koibito. At one point he even argues with his school nurse Sakura's fiancee that He, Ataru is her koibito and not her fiancee.
The devs stating that one of their characters' roles is that of lover is a lot more authoritative than a character calling someone else their lover.

I'm honestly curious, what do you think they're doing with Zack's character? Is he just there to take up space and time and watch Aerith walk off into the sunset with Cloud?

There is in fact so much Zack setup that it's its own game.

 

[Eerie]

He’s obviously there for Nojima’s cuckold fetish.

Disclaimer: Joke…. Obviously.

But yeah, they should bring both Aerith and Zack back if they go that route. However, it seems that everyone wanting Aerith to come back to life do not appear to share the same sentiment for Zack, as if he doesn’t deserve to have a happy ending. I think there is some double-standard here. Hmmm….

I don’t want to put words into people’s mouth and it should go without saying that obviously this doesn’t mean all of them feel this way but…

In my experience, people that think there is no canon ship seem to lean towards Clerith. I wonder why…

This reminds me that I did ask in the “will Aerith live?” thread here “if Aerith lives but ends up alone because Cloud and Tifa end up together, would that be ok?” and all I got as answers was crickets

 

[GamerSkull]

I won't wade into Cloti because it doesn't need defending. They are for all intents and purposes the only truly confirmed pair in FF7 retrilogy at this point in time. I feel it is truly pointless to even debate the canonicity of this pair.

Regarding there being no setup for Zack. All I will say is if they brought the man back and made his sole purpose getting back to Aerith (romantically, let's not beat around the bush), they're not going to end with him signing off on Clerith like so many CAs fervently desire. I am prone to dooming, but this at least I am certain of. He will get his face to face meeting with Aerith, he's earned that at the very minimum. Prophet Marlene isn't going to be enough to prevent that. He's either going to eat a full rejection to his face or get back with Aerith. Considering Gongaga, the dream date, and the soulmate setup throughout the game, I highly doubt Zack will be denied.

Yes, regardless of whether Zerith becomes a thing at the end (and I think it will), Zack will get to have a face-to-face meeting with Aerith. That is the bare minimum of what has been set up with him.

 

[Yoru]

I think there are still very few fandoms in the world where one of the main subjects of contention is the canonicity of a ship where one of the parties has been dead for 27 years now.

Personally, I've never been bothered by the fact that Cloud may have loved two women in his life. It's not dirty. It's just life. But even that, is too much to ask. He absolutely has to be the worst man on earth and inevitably treat his new chosen one like shit, ghosting her, having pity sex etc etc.

Even if, once again, everything falls apart when the game itself reveals that the character has a rather "intense" past with the famous substitute girl...

 

[pxl_pushr]

This reminds me that I did ask in the “will Aerith live?” thread here “if Aerith lives but ends up alone because Cloud and Tifa end up together, would that be ok?” and all I got as answers was crickets

The only version of that scenario I see playing out for her that’s bittersweet yet positive is that she literally becomes the maiden who travels the planet. No way she’d go back to Midgar after seeing so much of the world.

She’d travel, meet and help people, and make memories all her own.

… but she’s a goner, sadly but at least she’s just as much of a goner as Zack