SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
I really wish the Ultimania had shed more light on it. I think some elaboration would certainly help with how much everyone seems to read something differently from the Dream Date.

Although I will say, cutting away to Zack multiple times throughout it has to mean something. The writers made the deliberate choice to do that… rather than keep them separate.

Pretty sure that explaining it spoils the whole Lifestream/Worlds real meaning and purpose, cutting the 3rd game from a large part of its narrative.

So yeah... it really sucks but we'll have to do with our weird takes for the next 3 years...
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
T He doesn't have to reciprocate feelings for anyone, aerith included. Think bout the persona series. Once you get max level friendship, you have the option of romance or not. You can say no and romance someone else. Its really as simple as that in my eyes. FF7 is definitely more character driven so there is a difference but I think the same principle applies. The girl you don't chose takes the silent rejection, and accepts it. Also I believe its confirms cloud sleeps in a different bed and has his own room, maybe a translation error on that last part but pretty sure he sleeps separate and marlene always sleeps with tifa. The whole not answering the question when Tifa asks cloud if she loves him in the novel is part of the reason I don't like the extended content after the OG. It really muddies everything up and adds a lot of melodrama. The only part I liked bout the On The Way To Smile novel was the lifestream portions cuz they add to the lore of the remake. At the time of release though they were also pretty meh.
Welcome!

I just want to say, I don't think the Persona series is a good example because FF games aren't and never will be a "choose your own romance" type of game. It's not a dating simulator. You get "choices" because Cloud isn't himself but those choices are taken away from you once Cloud's true self is restored.

I don't have an issue with people believing Cloti lives together platonically post OG but that interpretation doesn't really make sense to me. Also, it is a mistranslation for the bed scene because in the JP version they're sharing a bed. There's nothing to suggest Tifa came into a separate room where he was asleep and asked if he loves her. They're laying in the same bed and she's feeling a bit neglected, he's asleep and she gathers up "the courage" to ask knowing he can't respond because he's not awake, she just needed to voice it out loud.
 
Last edited:

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
Welcome!

I just want to say, I don't think the Persona series is a good example because FF games aren't and never will be a "choose your own romance" type of game. It's not a dating simulator. You get "choices" because Cloud isn't himself but those choices are taken away from you once Cloud's true self is restored.

I don't have an issue with people believing Cloti lives together platonically post OG but that interpretation doesn't really make sense to me. Also, it is a mistranslation for the bed scene because in the JP version they're sharing a bed. There's nothing to suggest Tifa came into a separate room where he was asleep and asked if he loves her. They're asleep in the same bed and she's feeling a bit neglected, he's asleep and she gathers up "the courage" to ask knowing he can't respond because he's not awake, she just needed to voice it out loud.
As someone who has a partner that suffers from bouts of depression, I can understand Tifa’s feelings in that moment. My partner also explained that it isn’t unusual for the person in a relationship with someone that’s depressed to feel like they are somehow causing it.

The act of emotional withdrawal hurts both parties, which is why depression is so… depressing.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Something else I thought I should bring up in regards to "player choice".

Cloud and Tifa almost kiss in Gongaga "non-optionally", and no amount of gaslighting will ever convince me otherwise, here's why:

First off, we have to take into consideration the situation. Cloud and Tifa are more vulnerable and open to each other here than has ever been shown before this in re;trilogy. These are two people who have been confirmed to have mutual, deep romantic feelings for each other, and are finally beginning to really open up and trust each other.

Second, let's take a version of this scene where Tifa wasn't going to kiss him, what was she going to do? Walk up to him, close her hands around his and then just stand there looking at him? To claim she wasn't going to kiss him you would have to ignore the fact that they both inch closer to each other, that Tifa and Cloud both slightly open their mouths, and that Tifa's eyes start to flutter as she closes in.

and again, if Tifa wasn't going to do anything to him there, you must also ask yourself why the devs purposefully had Yuffie and Cait Sith posted up against the door, begging for them to kiss: "Kiss. Kiss!" (I'll tell you why, it's a trope that a romantic pairing has their moment interrupted by a third party, it might just be the most prominent, easily noticeable trope in japanese media, from what I've seen, anyway. You'll also notice that Cloud looks down towards her lips here)1714569685286.png1714569749673.png

Furthermore, if Tifa really wasn't going to do anything, then why did she look back at Cloud, smile, and nod at him? And then why have the camera cut to an up-close shot of him completely blown away?
1714569639845.png1714569655665.png

So far, this is all excluding the fact that Tifa's Gold Saucer date is a direct continuation of this scene.

On the gondola, she brings up how close they are at the minute, and how she can't remember a time when they were this close, obviously talking about how open and trusting they are with each other, a development that mostly takes place throughout the game, but really blossoms in Gongaga. A few moments later she says "Or am I getting ahead of myself again"

what is really important to note here is that she says "again", what other moment in the story so far could she be referring to here other than the time she clasped Cloud's hand and inched towards his face? And judging by the fact that Cloud immediately picks up on what she means, reassures her by saying "not one bit" (I know it's slightly different in japanese, but the message is still roughly the same), and then kisses her, it's clear that Cloud and Tifa both knew the intention behind Tifa's actions in Gongaga.

In conclusion, the only reasonable interpretation of this scene is a version where they were about to kiss but were interrupted, and any other "interpretation" is being purposefully obtuse.

Just to clarify, I know that most people on this thread are already aware of everything I've said here, I wrote this as sort of a reference for myself in the future, and for any lurkers that might doubt the plausibility of Gongaga's "almost kiss".
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Welcome!

I just want to say, I don't think the Persona series is a good example because FF games aren't and never will be a "choose your own romance" type of game. It's not a dating simulator. You get "choices" because Cloud isn't himself but those choices are taken away from you once Cloud's true self is restored.

I don't have an issue with people believing Cloti lives together platonically post OG but that interpretation doesn't really make sense to me. Also, it is a mistranslation for the bed scene because in the JP version they're sharing a bed. There's nothing to suggest Tifa came into a separate room where he was asleep and asked if he loves her. They're asleep in the same bed and she's feeling a bit neglected, he's asleep and she gathers up "the courage" to ask knowing he can't respond because he's not awake, she just needed to voice it out loud.

Are we really sure "the deniers" are talking about the book and not just using the movie as source of their whole "bed controversy" ?

Because in general, reading the extra content around FF7 isn't really their forte (apart from some very specific passages).

And yes, there are two beds in Advent Children... too bad it's Marlene & Denzel's room. Because Cloud isn't going to keep a photo of Denzel's parents on his bedside table...
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Someone just used the Wacdonalds interview as proof in 2024 i fear its over this fandom will never heal. If people still use the obviously fake Japan interview from early 2000's as evidence today. I must ask do people check whatever bullshit they find to see if it is factual, or if it fits there agenda, do they just accept it?
Where was this and did they get appropriately pilloried for using obviously fake bullshit?
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Are we really sure "the deniers" are talking about the book and not just using the movie as source of their whole "bed controversy" ?

Because in general, reading the extra content around FF7 isn't really their forte (apart from some very specific passages).

And yes, there are two beds in Advent Children... too bad it's Marlene & Denzel's room. Because Cloud isn't going to keep a photo of Denzel's parents on his bedside table...
From back in the day, deniers used Case of Tifa and the cot were "evidence" that the two didn't sleep together.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
Where was this and did they get appropriately pilloried for using obviously fake bullshit?
it was a reddit post about someone asking if Aerith was more popular in Japan because they did their own research and it wasn't matching what
they found.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
From back in the day, deniers used Case of Tifa and the cot were "evidence" that the two didn't sleep together.

Ok! so checks notes we have to add a scene where Tifa and Cloud buy a double bed in the end credits of the last game... which makes one more scene of Cloud filling out his phone bill with the bar as his permanent home adress... which I can maybe put in common with the scene where Aerith shows us how much her phone plan costs in the Lifestream because my god that's a lot of phones ringing at the end of AC.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
it was a reddit post about someone asking if Aerith was more popular in Japan because they did their own research and it wasn't matching what
they found.
Link? I promise not to touch the poop, I'm just curious.

Like I've said before, it's literally just a spare bed lmao. No evidence in favour of Clerith.
Look I know that, you know that, the inhabitants of Sentinel Island who do not make contact with the outside world know that. Pinkers in denial will say or believe anything if it means avoiding admitting Cloud loves Tifa instead of Aerith.

Ok! so checks notes we have to add a scene where Tifa and Cloud buy a double bed in the end credits of the last game... which makes one more scene of Cloud filling out his phone bill with the bar as his permanent home adress... which I can maybe put in common with the scene where Aerith shows us how much her phone plan costs in the Lifestream because my god that's a lot of phones ringing at the end of AC.
The A in AT&T stands for Aerith. She's always been the phone company, wake up sheeple!
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
The writing is a little weird in the novel, we don't know if its like the narrator saying cloud is the beloved of aerith or if the feeling is more reciprocated as in they both love each other. I prob lean more towards the latter cuz I feel devs really want to keep ships non-canon.
So devs want to keep ships non-canon... but the novel's koibito from the "woman" and "Ancient" automatically means mutual feelings?

Heres a reddit post unrelated to FF7 that discusses the word but redditors all say that the word, "koibito" is never used non-platonically, only romantically.
Koibito is, indeed, non-platonic. But it says nothing about reciprocity.

I'm curious to know if people are ok with the ending changing and her being alive.
I'd actually be down for that. But the only way I see that happening is if they bring both Aerith and Zack alive. .....or more alive since they're currently Schrödinger's characters, lol.

Also I don't see any set up with Zack tbh
I'm honestly curious, what do you think they're doing with Zack's character? Is he just there to take up space and time and watch Aerith walk off into the sunset with Cloud?
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
So devs want to keep ships non-canon... but the novel's koibito from the "woman" and "Ancient" automatically means mutual feelings?


Koibito is, indeed, non-platonic. But it says nothing about reciprocity.


I'd actually be down for that. But the only way I see that happening is if they bring both Aerith and Zack alive. .....or more alive since they're currently Schrödinger's characters, lol.


I'm honestly curious, what do you think they're doing with Zack's character? Is he just there to take up space and time and watch Aerith walk off into the sunset with Cloud?
He’s obviously there for Nojima’s cuckold fetish.

Disclaimer: Joke…. Obviously.

But yeah, they should bring both Aerith and Zack back if they go that route. However, it seems that everyone wanting Aerith to come back to life do not appear to share the same sentiment for Zack, as if he doesn’t deserve to have a happy ending. I think there is some double-standard here. Hmmm….

I don’t want to put words into people’s mouth and it should go without saying that obviously this doesn’t mean all of them feel this way but…

In my experience, a majority of people that think there is no canon ship seem to lean towards Clerith. I wonder why…
 
Last edited:

overheat28

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Overheat
I won't wade into Cloti because it doesn't need defending. They are for all intents and purposes the only truly confirmed pair in FF7 retrilogy at this point in time. I feel it is truly pointless to even debate the canonicity of this pair.

Regarding there being no setup for Zack. All I will say is if they brought the man back and made his sole purpose getting back to Aerith (romantically, let's not beat around the bush), they're not going to end with him signing off on Clerith like so many CAs fervently desire. I am prone to dooming, but this at least I am certain of. He will get his face to face meeting with Aerith, he's earned that at the very minimum. Prophet Marlene isn't going to be enough to prevent that. He's either going to eat a full rejection to his face or get back with Aerith. Considering Gongaga, the dream date, and the soulmate setup throughout the game, I highly doubt Zack will be denied.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
So devs want to keep ships non-canon... but the novel's koibito from the "woman" and "Ancient" automatically means mutual feelings?


Koibito is, indeed, non-platonic. But it says nothing about reciprocity.
Yeah, you are allowed to have a character call someone Koibito without it being returned. As a very handy Go To, Ataru Morobishi calls many women Koibito. At one point he even argues with his school nurse Sakura's fiancee that He, Ataru is her koibito and not her fiancee.
The devs stating that one of their characters' roles is that of lover is a lot more authoritative than a character calling someone else their lover.

I'm honestly curious, what do you think they're doing with Zack's character? Is he just there to take up space and time and watch Aerith walk off into the sunset with Cloud?
There is in fact so much Zack setup that it's its own game.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
He’s obviously there for Nojima’s cuckold fetish.

Disclaimer: Joke…. Obviously.

But yeah, they should bring both Aerith and Zack back if they go that route. However, it seems that everyone wanting Aerith to come back to life do not appear to share the same sentiment for Zack, as if he doesn’t deserve to have a happy ending. I think there is some double-standard here. Hmmm….

I don’t want to put words into people’s mouth and it should go without saying that obviously this doesn’t mean all of them feel this way but…

In my experience, people that think there is no canon ship seem to lean towards Clerith. I wonder why…
This reminds me that I did ask in the “will Aerith live?” thread here “if Aerith lives but ends up alone because Cloud and Tifa end up together, would that be ok?” and all I got as answers was crickets 🙃
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I won't wade into Cloti because it doesn't need defending. They are for all intents and purposes the only truly confirmed pair in FF7 retrilogy at this point in time. I feel it is truly pointless to even debate the canonicity of this pair.

Regarding there being no setup for Zack. All I will say is if they brought the man back and made his sole purpose getting back to Aerith (romantically, let's not beat around the bush), they're not going to end with him signing off on Clerith like so many CAs fervently desire. I am prone to dooming, but this at least I am certain of. He will get his face to face meeting with Aerith, he's earned that at the very minimum. Prophet Marlene isn't going to be enough to prevent that. He's either going to eat a full rejection to his face or get back with Aerith. Considering Gongaga, the dream date, and the soulmate setup throughout the game, I highly doubt Zack will be denied.
Yes, regardless of whether Zerith becomes a thing at the end (and I think it will), Zack will get to have a face-to-face meeting with Aerith. That is the bare minimum of what has been set up with him.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
I think there are still very few fandoms in the world where one of the main subjects of contention is the canonicity of a ship where one of the parties has been dead for 27 years now.

Personally, I've never been bothered by the fact that Cloud may have loved two women in his life. It's not dirty. It's just life. But even that, is too much to ask. He absolutely has to be the worst man on earth and inevitably treat his new chosen one like shit, ghosting her, having pity sex etc etc.

Even if, once again, everything falls apart when the game itself reveals that the character has a rather "intense" past with the famous substitute girl...
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
This reminds me that I did ask in the “will Aerith live?” thread here “if Aerith lives but ends up alone because Cloud and Tifa end up together, would that be ok?” and all I got as answers was crickets 🙃
The only version of that scenario I see playing out for her that’s bittersweet yet positive is that she literally becomes the maiden who travels the planet. No way she’d go back to Midgar after seeing so much of the world.

She’d travel, meet and help people, and make memories all her own.

… but she’s a goner, sadly but at least she’s just as much of a goner as Zack :)
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Yes, regardless of whether Zerith becomes a thing at the end (and I think it will), Zack will get to have a face-to-face meeting with Aerith. That is the bare minimum of what has been set up with him.
Yeah, it seems like quite a few people want Aerith to come back for shipping reasons generally and her just being alive is secondary to that. Which is why the sentiment doesn’t extend to Zack… because it would therefore create a problem.
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
But yeah, they should bring both Aerith and Zack back if they go that route. However, it seems that everyone wanting Aerith to come back to life do not appear to share the same sentiment for Zack, as if he doesn’t deserve to have a happy ending. I think there is some double-standard here. Hmmm….
I can shamelessly admit that I like happy endings. So if we got an ending where Cloud and Tifa settle in Edge, and Aerith and Zack get to travel the planet, I'd just be happy, lol. But I guess I'd take a beautiful reunion in death too and settle for "they all live happily ever after" fan fic.

In my experience, a majority of people that think there is no canon ship seem to lean towards Clerith. I wonder why…
Because when one ship is canon the tactics are to deny and invalidate, lol.

Or two ships actually. Zerith is canon too even if they are currently separated by death and... whatever Re-trilogy has going on.

Yeah, you are allowed to have a character call someone Koibito without it being returned. As a very handy Go To, Ataru Morobishi calls many women Koibito. At one point he even argues with his school nurse Sakura's fiancee that He, Ataru is her koibito and not her fiancee.
The devs stating that one of their characters' roles is that of lover is a lot more authoritative than a character calling someone else their lover.
It's really curious isn't it that a third-person limited statement from a nameless character is taken as the author's word instead of as the character's feelings.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
Yeah, it seems like quite a few people want Aerith to come back for shipping reasons generally and her just being alive is secondary to that. Which is why the sentiment doesn’t extend to Zack… because it would therefore create a problem.
See, I was in the camp of "If Zack gets to defy his fate, why can't Aerith?" And I still want her to!! She deserved to see those video tapes of her parents and ride on the Highwind 😤

But most people I talk to don't have this same POV if they want her to live lol they just.... want her to live so she can be with Cloud which I have no interest in obviously cause I don't ship them.
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
See, I was in the camp of "If Zack gets to defy his fate, why can't Aerith?" And I still want her to!! She deserved to see those video tapes of her parents and ride on the Highwind 😤

But most people I talk to don't have this same POV if they want her to live lol they just.... want her to live so she can be with Cloud which I have no interest in obviously cause I don't ship them.
Because rewriting the planet’s memories isn’t a good thing

But hey, maybe she’ll still get both of those things before her and Zack get the Tidus treatment.
 

Aurenare

Lv. 1 Adventurer
The "there is no canon ship/it is up to the player" is a tactic Cleriths have been using for a while now. They think it gives them the higher moral/argumentative ground, to appear as "neutral" by stating that it is up to the player, BUT (there is always a "but" not long after saying the above) the game is "Clerith leaning". And then they will bombard you with why the game is soooooo Clerith.

You cannot trust anyone that states "it is up to the player". They are just disguised Cleriths, waiting for you to say "no, the story after this point revolves around Cloud and Tifa's relationship" to point their righteous finger at you and claim you are not trust worthy to debate with because you are a filthy, biased Cloti. But not them! They are "neutral" and you should totally listen to their arguments, and only them.

As I have said before, I am mostly a lurker in this whole mess. I am a fan for FFVII, its lore, story, and characters. My only ship in the game is Cid/Shera (and I am a lonely shipper, as everybody ships Cid with Vincent, despite the stated canonicity of Cid and Shera's marriage). I don't hold a horse in this supposed race, because the story is what it is, and I accept and love it as is. What I am is sick and tired of seeing these three characters, Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith, being torn to pieces because of the sake of some people sense of "winning". Or being "right" and others "wrong". Because it is not about the story or about the characters anymore. It is about the ego of people, their inhability of accepting the truth that has been told in the story, AND MOVE ON.

Want to ship? THEN DO.

But be kind, and respect others. And the story and characters you say you love. That's how you show true and rightful neutrality.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
See, I was in the camp of "If Zack gets to defy his fate, why can't Aerith?" And I still want her to!! She deserved to see those video tapes of her parents and ride on the Highwind 😤

But most people I talk to don't have this same POV if they want her to live lol they just.... want her to live so she can be with Cloud which I have no interest in obviously cause I don't ship them.

So she'll survive, use the time before the final confrontation like the rest of the team to return to their loved ones and thus see and say goodbye to her mother while Tifa and Cloud play Twister naked? How nice of her!
 
Top Bottom