SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

Also for the one who asked the source of Nomura and Kitase saying the LS scene was their favourite, it’s been translated here: FFVII 10th Anniversary Discussion: p. 8 to 13 of the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania - The Lifestream

Sorry I’m on my phone so typing is a hassle

 

[abzy1200]

It is but I can't lie they left it ambiguous for so long and half the answers are in Japanese books. Now with remake trilogy it's more clear but I will never understand why they couldn't just say Tifa is his wife in AC. They implied it with family they showed the ring, the quote about her being his important woman. Why can't they just say it XD

I don't think it makes much sense for Cloud and Tifa to be married during before Advent Children. They're two heavily traumatised people with major issues. They are very young adults who are tasked with raising children despite their own issues in trying to move on from a heavy burden, that being guilt over their past actions. It would also make Tifa's worries about them being a "normal family" or not feel a bit more unfounded if she was married to Cloud.

Cloud and Tifa's last worry is getting married, honestly.

I think the weapon argument is because it would suck to not have the characters have their limit breaks since Aerith could get it in OG. I do think there could be playable sections for Aerith in part 3 and obviously VR battles with all characters. But weapons aren't related to the story since we all assume Cloud is just using the buster sword when he's using another sword anyway.

It just feels like an argument based on nothing. Like, Aerith doesn't have half of these limit breaks in Rebirth, and neither does anybody else have even half of theirs. There are nods to old limit breaks, like Cloud seems to do Climhazzard in his level 2 limit break "ascension" and Tifa's uppercut is also a reference to "dolphin blow" in her level 2 limit break, but this just feels like such a weak argument all the same.

 

[Eerie]

Cloud and Tifa aren’t married in ACC but being married doesn’t matter; they’ve been together since the end of the OG. That’s why Cloud is all sappy at the beginning of CoT (something we’ll hopefully see after the HW scene).

 

[Sacky]

I don't think it makes much sense for Cloud and Tifa to be married during before Advent Children. They're two heavily traumatised people with major issues. They are very young adults who are tasked with raising children despite their own issues in trying to move on from a heavy burden, that being guilt over their past actions. It would also make Tifa's worries about them being a "normal family" or not feel a bit more unfounded if she was married to Cloud.

Cloud and Tifa's last worry is getting married, honestly.

It just feels like an argument based on nothing. Like, Aerith doesn't have half of these limit breaks in Rebirth, and neither does anybody else have even half of theirs. There are nods to old limit breaks, like Cloud seems to do Climhazzard in his level 2 limit break "ascension" and Tifa's uppercut is also a reference to "dolphin blow" in her level 2 limit break, but this just feels like such a weak argument all the same. View attachment 16377

I meant more like romantic partner, not married per say but common law?

 

[Yoru]

Personally, my theory is that the dream date aerith is the OG aerith from the OG games. She's been hiding in the lifestream and is the reason why at the beginning of remake aerith has the memories of the previous game. The dream date was a risk she had to take in order to give remake aerith the white materia to perform holy. The materia also performs a double duty of giving aerith the memories of OG aerith. Sephiroth says during the date, "so this is where you've been hiding". This indicates to me he's been looking for this particular version of Aerith. OG aerith would be his biggest obstacle as she has the most knowledge and can pass it to other aeriths if necessary. We see in the novel that Aerith is also hiding from sephiroth. It states she senses him but that he's dangerous and she shouldn't get close. Her date with cloud here is a serves as a way to give cloud the materia but also a final goodbye from OG aerith to cloud. Seph by the end comes for her and I think kills her. She doesn't return to the lifestream, that's it for her he destroys her spirit or soul. That's why the it's been fun line hurts so much to me. OG aerith has gotten an oppurtunity to actually see cloud develop before everything.

I do believe OG aerith has feelings for cloud and I believe this is confirmed in the Lifestream White 1 section. In it cloud is called her beloved, or a more direct translation would be sweetheart or lover. The writing is a little weird in the novel, we don't know if its like the narrator saying cloud is the beloved of aerith or if the feeling is more reciprocated as in they both love each other. I prob lean more towards the latter cuz I feel devs really want to keep ships non-canon. Heres a reddit post unrelated to FF7 that discusses the word but redditors all say that the word, "koibito" is never used non-platonically, only romantically. Sucks for Zack but idk could be wrong.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/sy1s6z
This could explain why aerith is so forward and bold in remake. She has already fallen for cloud cuz shes seen everything the OG aerith has. Rebirth is where she loses it and she almost reverts to the aerith before the memories. She has all the moments she shared with cloud in the remake, but the context behind them is now missing.

I'm of the opinion that devs really shouldn't pick a canon ship. It's a lot of hate for what amounts to not much in terms of storytelling. What I really want to see is in part 3, Aerith being able to live. I personally think cloud made a version of her by blocking the sword and she'll prob be available to party with in the final battle when the worlds merge. We haven't gotten her final limit break so this is one logical way to do it. I'm curious to know if people are ok with the ending changing and her being alive. I get that a lot of people hold the OG's themes dear but remake has changed so much that I think we can explore a new, more optimistic theme of fate not being set in stone. From what I've gathered most fans wouldn't be mad at a new happier ending, just fail to see how it can be executed well.

Personally, I think people take this scene far too literally, when it's supposed to be much more spiritual and symbolic. They're just representations of the characters' psyches in the Lifestream overall. Sephiroth will always come after Aerith to kill her, because she's the last Cetra. The last Jedi. Whatever scenario the planet sets up, Aerith will die. And there's nothing we can do about it. And whatever the scenario, Aerith will always choose her friends, the survival of the planet, over her own happiness. I'm personally convinced that there aren't 15 versions of the character running around. They're just plunges, glimpses, snippets, of their souls as stored in the Lifestream (=all the worlds).

And the same goes for Zack. What do we see him doing in all his worlds? Braving death, standing up to fate to try and see Aerith again. And that's what he did in OG too. He could have gone into hiding, but no, he chose to go to Midgar, the headquarters of the people looking for him. It's who he is. A soul ready to do anything to find the person he loves.

So even with slight differences and some of them disapearing real quick in the LS, what we can see in other world are characters true to themselves.

And for the pick a canon ship argument.... they already kinda did it since 1997. Game mechanics allows you to make headcanons but the story doesn't.

 

[SilverSisu]

Personally, my theory is that the dream date aerith is the OG aerith from the OG games. She's been hiding in the lifestream and is the reason why at the beginning of remake aerith has the memories of the previous game. The dream date was a risk she had to take in order to give remake aerith the white materia to perform holy. The materia also performs a double duty of giving aerith the memories of OG aerith. Sephiroth says during the date, "so this is where you've been hiding". This indicates to me he's been looking for this particular version of Aerith. OG aerith would be his biggest obstacle as she has the most knowledge and can pass it to other aeriths if necessary. We see in the novel that Aerith is also hiding from sephiroth. It states she senses him but that he's dangerous and she shouldn't get close. Her date with cloud here is a serves as a way to give cloud the materia but also a final goodbye from OG aerith to cloud. Seph by the end comes for her and I think kills her. She doesn't return to the lifestream, that's it for her he destroys her spirit or soul. That's why the it's been fun line hurts so much to me. OG aerith has gotten an oppurtunity to actually see cloud develop before everything.

I do believe OG aerith has feelings for cloud and I believe this is confirmed in the Lifestream White 1 section. In it cloud is called her beloved, or a more direct translation would be sweetheart or lover. The writing is a little weird in the novel, we don't know if its like the narrator saying cloud is the beloved of aerith or if the feeling is more reciprocated as in they both love each other. I prob lean more towards the latter cuz I feel devs really want to keep ships non-canon. Heres a reddit post unrelated to FF7 that discusses the word but redditors all say that the word, "koibito" is never used non-platonically, only romantically. Sucks for Zack but idk could be wrong.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/sy1s6z
This could explain why aerith is so forward and bold in remake. She has already fallen for cloud cuz shes seen everything the OG aerith has. Rebirth is where she loses it and she almost reverts to the aerith before the memories. She has all the moments she shared with cloud in the remake, but the context behind them is now missing.

I'm of the opinion that devs really shouldn't pick a canon ship. It's a lot of hate for what amounts to not much in terms of storytelling. What I really want to see is in part 3, Aerith being able to live. I personally think cloud made a version of her by blocking the sword and she'll prob be available to party with in the final battle when the worlds merge. We haven't gotten her final limit break so this is one logical way to do it. I'm curious to know if people are ok with the ending changing and her being alive. I get that a lot of people hold the OG's themes dear but remake has changed so much that I think we can explore a new, more optimistic theme of fate not being set in stone. From what I've gathered most fans wouldn't be mad at a new happier ending, just fail to see how it can be executed well.

I doubt og Aerith is gone because
A) She healed Zack before Sephiroth fight
B) She transported Zack into safety before his world got destroyed.

I would love to see both Aerith and Zack being alive and living together in some alternative world.

 

[abzy1200]

Cloud and Tifa aren’t married in ACC but being married doesn’t matter; they’ve been together since the end of the OG. That’s why Cloud is all sappy at the beginning of CoT (something we’ll hopefully see after the HW scene).

Not to mention that it's stated in CoT that Tifa and Cloud's "silly conversations" returned after Denzel was added into the picture, so yes they did enjoy each others company and had fun with each other post ff7.

I meant more like romantic partner, not married per say but common law?

I mean, Tifa is referred to as "taisetsu na josei" to Cloud, purposefully separated from "former allies", so there's that.

 

[Sacky]

Not to mention that it's stated in CoT that Tifa and Cloud's "silly conversations" returned after Denzel was added into the picture, so yes they did enjoy each others company and had fun with each other post ff7.


I mean, Tifa is referred to as "taisetsu na josei" to Cloud, purposefully separated from "former allies", so there's that.

Yeah all I was hoping for was something like that to be said in the actual movie by someone but product of its time sadly

 

[pringlessingles]

before I say anything, welcome!

anyway, they've already picked a canon ship, at this point they have leant too far into Cloti for a Clerith or neutral story to make Cloud come across as anything but an ass. If there isn't a Cloti conclusion of this story then why did the devs basically make a satellite love interest only to not even give her that much? That a couple weeks with Aerith suddenly undid all the feelings Cloud had for Tifa and he proceeds to live with her as roommates for the rest of his life, sleeping in the same bed as her and basically leading her on?

I don't buy it, not for a second.

and also, I always find it odd when people bring up that Aerith didn't get her final weapons or limit breaks, like okay? Nobody did. Where's ultima? where's omnislash? where's final heaven etc. or am I just missing the point?

EDIT: also, I'm not a huge fan of undermining the central themes of something for the sake of "look guys, happy ending!" That isn't the game I've grown to love, I'm a fan of Final Fantasy 7, not FinalFanfiction 7.

Thanks for the warm welcome! I just haven't seen any thing that indicates they've leaned in either direction. Personally I saw that both girls have roughly the same amount of intimate interaction between the them and cloud. I think the only edge I saw to Tifa was the almost kiss which I'll admit does lean slightly more towards Cloti. There's also the fortune in which it states he will lost what he cherishes most, which to me was Aerith as I think that's the only thing/person he really loses after the fortune so that can also be a counter but that's more of a reach. I always felt nojima liked to mess with shippers. He'd like a tweet bout Tifa being a good wife, then make a statement about if it was Aerith, cloud wouldn't be fighting with her. Idk seems like a troll almost lol. This is all just opinion take it for what you will.

As for the whole satelite love thing, I'm assuming you are talking about how if no romance is canon, and aerith still dies, cloud will just live with Tifa despite her loving him. Yeah. That's just it. We have the option in the game to never do any of the dates with either girls which just makes cloud not interested in romance. Would you say this is cloud leading them on? If its player choice by the end, there is the option where he romances Tifa and aerith dies, or he sort of just lives with her, forever loving a dead woman, or he just lives with her platonically. I don't think that makes him a dick or leading her on. He doesn't have to reciprocate feelings for anyone, aerith included. Think bout the persona series. Once you get max level friendship, you have the option of romance or not. You can say no and romance someone else. Its really as simple as that in my eyes. FF7 is definitely more character driven so there is a difference but I think the same principle applies. The girl you don't chose takes the silent rejection, and accepts it. Also I believe its confirms cloud sleeps in a different bed and has his own room, maybe a translation error on that last part but pretty sure he sleeps separate and marlene always sleeps with tifa. The whole not answering the question when Tifa asks cloud if she loves him in the novel is part of the reason I don't like the extended content after the OG. It really muddies everything up and adds a lot of melodrama. The only part I liked bout the On The Way To Smile novel was the lifestream portions cuz they add to the lore of the remake. At the time of release though they were also pretty meh.

Lastly the weapons stuff is cuz cloud and the other still have a chance to get the final limit breaks and weapons, if aerith isn't able to party up or at least fight, she'll be the only one without the oppurtunity. I respect the opinion of not wanting to change the theme. I know a lot of OG fans rather keep it. I just think that so much has changed and introducing the defy fate stuff would feel slightly wasted and even mean if aerith didn't survive. That's just me though. I still think at least AC needs to be avoided so the defy fate tagline wasn't for nothing.

 

[Eerie]

What are you going on about Nojima’s statement, this feels like gaslighting since Nojima has consistently backed up CT. Are you talking about what he said during an interview for ACC? Where he says Aerith would have a great burden in the relationship since she’d be the one making all the efforts… something we see in Rebirth and that ends with her accepting being only friends with Cloud since he doesn’t see her that way?

By comparison Cloud and Tifa belong together as per Nojima. In that very same interview where he described their relationship in the scope of love and marriage

 

[Sacky]

Thanks for the warm welcome! I just haven't seen any thing that indicates they've leaned in either direction. Personally I saw that both girls have roughly the same amount of intimate interaction between the them and cloud. I think the only edge I saw to Tifa was the almost kiss which I'll admit does lean slightly more towards Cloti. There's also the fortune in which it states he will lost what he cherishes most, which to me was Aerith as I think that's the only thing/person he really loses after the fortune so that can also be a counter but that's more of a reach. I always felt nojima liked to mess with shippers. He'd like a tweet bout Tifa being a good wife, then make a statement about if it was Aerith, cloud wouldn't be fighting with her. Idk seems like a troll almost lol. This is all just opinion take it for what you will.

As for the whole satelite love thing, I'm assuming you are talking about how if no romance is canon, and aerith still dies, cloud will just live with Tifa despite her loving him. Yeah. That's just it. We have the option in the game to never do any of the dates with either girls which just makes cloud not interested in romance. Would you say this is cloud leading them on? If its player choice by the end, there is the option where he romances Tifa and aerith dies, or he sort of just lives with her, forever loving a dead woman, or he just lives with her platonically. I don't think that makes him a dick or leading her on. He doesn't have to reciprocate feelings for anyone, aerith included. Think bout the persona series. Once you get max level friendship, you have the option of romance or not. You can say no and romance someone else. Its really as simple as that in my eyes. FF7 is definitely more character driven so there is a difference but I think the same principle applies. The girl you don't chose takes the silent rejection, and accepts it. Also I believe its confirms cloud sleeps in a different bed and has his own room, maybe a translation error on that last part but pretty sure he sleeps separate and marlene always sleeps with tifa. The whole not answering the question when Tifa asks cloud if she loves him in the novel is part of the reason I don't like the extended content after the OG. It really muddies everything up and adds a lot of melodrama. The only part I liked bout the On The Way To Smile novel was the lifestream portions cuz they add to the lore of the remake. At the time of release though they were also pretty meh.

Lastly the weapons stuff is cuz cloud and the other still have a chance to get the final limit breaks and weapons, if aerith isn't able to party up or at least fight, she'll be the only one without the oppurtunity. I respect the opinion of not wanting to change the theme. I know a lot of OG fans rather keep it. I just think that so much has changed and introducing the defy fate stuff would feel slightly wasted and even mean if aerith didn't survive. That's just me though. I still think at least AC needs to be avoided so the defy fate tagline wasn't for nothing.

There's a lot of evidence for Clouds romance with Tifa. I can make a list of stuff and show you but I'm not on my pc right now. The thing a lot of people don't understand is Romance is built into the plot on the lifestream sequence and Clouds motivation. The player choice is illusion of choice we never see any differences apart from gold saucer. But the outcome for everything stays the same regardless of choice. Think dream date choice doesn't matter. Cloud is completely different from a persona protagonist he has a backstory and his own desires which we see in the lifestream sequence when the real Cloud comes back. On the way to a smile shows the conflict in the relationship and advent children shows the conflict getting dealt with which is his guilt over failing Zack and Aerith and him being happy while they died for him. There's even a book afterwards showing Cloud walking back with his family all happy after the church scene.

The Nojima statement was actually made before the movie came out. So it's to not spoil the plot of the movie or reveal anything.the movie kind of answers the question. Yes cloud and Tifa have problems by the end of the movie they work through them and end up happy

 

[Sacky]

What are you going on about Nojima’s statement, this feels like gaslighting since Nojima has consistently backed up CT. Are you talking about what he said during an interview for ACC? Where he says Aerith would have a great burden in the relationship since she’d be the one making all the efforts… something we see in Rebirth and that ends with her accepting being only friends with Cloud since he doesn’t see her that way?

By comparison Cloud and Tifa belong together as per Nojima. In that very same interview where he described their relationship in the scope of love and marriage

To be fair there is so much misinformation spread around. We know what the quote actually means cause we have discussed it a lot. But we should debate and inform them let people come to their own conclusions instead of accusing people of gaslighting.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I saw this compilation picture of Cloud sharing Zack's mannerisms somewhere on this site, which I thought was cool. It would've been cool to see Aerith struggle with it in-game, too, because I imagine seeing that would've been so uncanny and uncomfortable, lol.

I agree. In Remake you kind of see her react to Cloud. Like she starts of praising how cool he is then we he starts boasting she dials it back. You see her get flustered when he catches her on the rooftop. You see her mention she knows he is a SOLDIER from the sword, you see question him about knowing any SOLDIERS. You see her say she needs to move forward not back etc. So kind of shows in Remake but we don't ever really see the struggle in Rebirth.

I saw she is surprised and wondering during the Costa Del Sol date why Cloud took the mission which shows she likes him throughout and is frustrated with her feelings but outside of that there isn't much except her GS dates and her saying she wants to find him.

Rebirth I feel kind of reset Aerith by taking her memories of the future but don't really have her react in terms of her feelings outside of the optional content.

Which is why the dream date where she clearly is very interested and clearly struggling doesn't seem to match up with much of what came before.

And basically you only get the full picture if you play her route and sidequests. If you ignore these it's even more out of left field because Aerith's feelings aren't given context. In OG people don't like that she flirts but we see she is clearly interested.

In Remake she doesn't flirt as much and I don't think she is as conflicted but you see her react and feel a bit more. So I have to say Remake fleshed her out way better.

But even there she is mysterious for most of it.

 

[Yoru]

Same amount of intimate interactions =/= same quality of intimate interactions.
And I think it's pretty clear when it comes to Rebirth. But people didn't receive it that way judging by some messages here.

But basically for "non-optional" players it's chapter 9 vs chapter 14 :

Cloud speaking softly like never heard before + confessing doubts and fears like never before + almost kissing
vs
Cloud listening to someone saying they like him and his answer to that being "why are you so weird?"


Maybe we have to go in optional scenes territories and.... yeah no point. I think we all saw the main difference between the girl's treatement here. I'm sorry to sound like and be an asshole but... how can you not see how Cloud is not subtil AT ALL. I just don't understand. Call me biased I guess.

 

[abzy1200]

Thanks for the warm welcome! I just haven't seen any thing that indicates they've leaned in either direction. Personally I saw that both girls have roughly the same amount of intimate interaction between the them and cloud. I think the only edge I saw to Tifa was the almost kiss which I'll admit does lean slightly more towards Cloti. There's also the fortune in which it states he will lost what he cherishes most, which to me was Aerith as I think that's the only thing/person he really loses after the fortune so that can also be a counter but that's more of a reach. I always felt nojima liked to mess with shippers. He'd like a tweet bout Tifa being a good wife, then make a statement about if it was Aerith, cloud wouldn't be fighting with her. Idk seems like a troll almost lol. This is all just opinion take it for what you will.

As for the whole satelite love thing, I'm assuming you are talking about how if no romance is canon, and aerith still dies, cloud will just live with Tifa despite her loving him. Yeah. That's just it. We have the option in the game to never do any of the dates with either girls which just makes cloud not interested in romance. Would you say this is cloud leading them on? If its player choice by the end, there is the option where he romances Tifa and aerith dies, or he sort of just lives with her, forever loving a dead woman, or he just lives with her platonically. I don't think that makes him a dick or leading her on. He doesn't have to reciprocate feelings for anyone, aerith included. Think bout the persona series. Once you get max level friendship, you have the option of romance or not. You can say no and romance someone else. Its really as simple as that in my eyes. FF7 is definitely more character driven so there is a difference but I think the same principle applies. The girl you don't chose takes the silent rejection, and accepts it. Also I believe its confirms cloud sleeps in a different bed and has his own room, maybe a translation error on that last part but pretty sure he sleeps separate and marlene always sleeps with tifa. The whole not answering the question when Tifa asks cloud if she loves him in the novel is part of the reason I don't like the extended content after the OG. It really muddies everything up and adds a lot of melodrama. The only part I liked bout the On The Way To Smile novel was the lifestream portions cuz they add to the lore of the remake. At the time of release though they were also pretty meh.

Lastly the weapons stuff is cuz cloud and the other still have a chance to get the final limit breaks and weapons, if aerith isn't able to party up or at least fight, she'll be the only one without the oppurtunity. I respect the opinion of not wanting to change the theme. I know a lot of OG fans rather keep it. I just think that so much has changed and introducing the defy fate stuff would feel slightly wasted and even mean if aerith didn't survive. That's just me though. I still think at least AC needs to be avoided so the defy fate tagline wasn't for nothing.

Couple things to go over here.

1. The devs have stated that they weren't fond of the affection system being in Rebirth, they obviously don't intend to make the next persona game.

2. Cloud and Tifa's romance isn't player choice, the scenes in Kalm, under Junon, and Gongaga are not optional, Trails of two pasts and 2k gil to a hero confirm that both Cloud and Tifa are very romantically interested in each other. The lifestream sequence is a subtle love confession, part of it is him basically telling Tifa "everything I did in my life, was for you."

as others have stated, there are quotes from the writer himself that confirm that Cloud and Tifa were written in the context of "love, marriage and family", here:

“Episode:Tifa … first, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big, I think. Oh, I remember. I also wanted to write about Cloud through Tifa. It certainly can be difficult to ascertain his feelings. (laughs)”

3. In CoT, it only confirms that Marlene slept with Tifa up until the night Barret left, so only about a week. The next time we have any reference to Marlenes sleeping arrangements is in Advent Children where she has her own bed. Marlene told Barret she would keep the family strong, so I doubt she continued to sleep with Tifa for much longer after that.

For "evidence" that they slept in the same bed, CoT claims that Tifa awaited Cloud's answer until morning (after she asked him whether or not he loved her). This would be entirely out of character for her if she didn't have a reason to be in the room with him all night, as Nomura states, quite specifically, that Tifa is not a clingy woman, and on the contrary that she is a strong woman. The only reasonable, in-character interpretation of this scene is that Tifa and Cloud share a bed.

For the bed in "Cloud's office" (Note that this is what it's actually called, it's never referred to as "Cloud's room"), I don't know why it's unreasonable to assume that they keep a spare bed in their house, Barret immediately springs to mind here when talking about somewhere for guests to stay. Cloud also runs a delivery service and works odd hours, it's also entirely reasonable to assume because of this that Cloud crashes in that room whenever he gets home late and doesn't want to wake Tifa, it's a very common thing to do in real life.

4. Yes, it does make Cloud an asshole. Accompying ultimanias and other sources state that Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual feelings of romantic love through acts of intimacy that night under the highwind. So yes, Cloud confessing to Tifa in the lifestream, having sex with her, claiming she's with him in a different way than before, moving in with her, sleeping in the same bed as her, and raising children with her, only to go "sorry, all those feelings I had for you were completely undone because I spent a couple weeks with Aerith, I don't love you anymore" does, in fact, make Cloud come across as a massive prick, and 100% foots the bill for leading someone on.

EDIT:

5. Something else I would like to add is that Cid and Barret talk about Cloud and Tifa in the same context they talked about Cid and his wife, so take that as you will.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

It is but I can't lie they left it ambiguous for so long and half the answers are in Japanese books. Now with remake trilogy it's more clear but I will never understand why they couldn't just say Tifa is his wife in AC. They implied it with family they showed the ring, the quote about her being his important woman. Why can't they just say it XD

About that. The ring is not the only one shown. Denzel and Barrett seem to have one as well. So I don't think they're married but they're definitely a couple. I see it as since it's after the apocalypse they got together but marriage isn't exactly the first priority. But I would definitely say the narrative treats them as a couple that lives together unmarried that have been together and raise kids together to the point they might as well be married.

So they don't say she is his wife because she isn't but they do call her koibito. Someone's girlfriend and important woman.

 

[abzy1200]

I respect the opinion of not wanting to change the theme. I know a lot of OG fans rather keep it. I just think that so much has changed and introducing the defy fate stuff would feel slightly wasted and even mean if aerith didn't survive. That's just me though. I still think at least AC needs to be avoided so the defy fate tagline wasn't for nothing.

Sorry for the double post but I forgot to mention this part.

The devs have stated before that the re;trilogy will follow the storyline of the original, so they added in stuff to make it feel less predictable.

 

[pringlessingles]

I think it is arguably a mistake to view it as “the developers picking a canon ship”, or it not amounting to much in terms of storytelling when, in Part 3, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship does become the story. Like things don’t move forward at all until after Tifa is able to successfully repair Cloud’s mind and memories. And Tifa is at the heart of all of that. It’s when their relationship does amount to a lot in terms of the storytelling, and it really has nothing to do with shipping at this point.

It wouldn’t be them picking Cloti as a canon ship at all. It would simply be them following the story as per the original. And if they do, as you say, receive a lot of hate for going in this direction well, I’m sorry but those who would respond in hate to this only have themselves to blame.

The developers have been painfully transparent about their intentions in terms of following the original, and not deviating too far from that course.

Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is a natural and organic part of the story, and especially in Part 3. It’s all in the original.

If one hates the fact they follow through on their established aims, then that’s on them for not only ignoring what they have been saying ad nauseam, but for ignoring the original, and frankly, ignoring all the groundwork laid down in Rebirth itself to facilitate the Cloud and Tifa moments to come in Part 3.

One could even make a case that, in terms of shipping, a ship has been “canonised”, in only so much as only one of the two women got a kiss from Cloud on their Gold Saucer date.

As for Aerith living, I personally do agree that I for one wouldn’t be upset at her getting her chance at a happy ending if it can be executed well.

But given how Rebirth depicted things I don’t see Aerith being alive, at least certainly not in the world Cloud and the others are in. And her happy ending doesn’t lie with Cloud. Nothing narratively, or in the storytelling, sets this up for Part 3. What has been set up to the point it feels arguably over sign posted at this point, is a reunion, romantic or otherwise, with Zack.

As to whether you or others would see this as a suitably happy ending for Aerith, everyone’s mileages vary, and I understand the desire to see Aerith’s happy ending lie with Cloud. If I felt Rebirth had set this up and was leaning towards it, I would admit it, under the caveat that this would be a significant change from the original.

As it happens I don’t think this is the case, as I’ve explained above.

I guess we just agree to disagree here. I just don't see the mind repair as a reciprocal romantic event. Their relationship is super important to the series but it doesn't have to be romantic in order for it be make sense. Also I could go on a whole tangent bout dev statements and how they are very vague and contradictory. Plus if it ends the exact same the whole defy fate stuff was for nothing all to end up with AC as the conclusion, a movie that was universally rated poorly in terms of plot. I don't see how they don't retcon that, cuz what other fate can we defy? As for the kiss. I guess this is a matter of what you believe is more intimate a kiss or interlocking hands. From the little reaseach I've done, interlocking hands like that in Japan is called the lover's tie. In general it thought the scene was very intimate, on par with the kiss. It was two different kinds of romance. One is passionate a kiss is the prototypical romantic gesture. The other is a more reserved romantic moment. Think of your grandparents, holding hands resting their heads atop one another. Equally as romantic in my eyes.

For the set up of aerith wanting to live and her happy ending, I specifiy it doesn't necessarily have to do with just cloud, not everything bout the story is romance. Its more so bout the group. In the full version of NPTK, she sings:
"If only I'd never known
All the burdens I was born to bear
Lived a life without a care in the world save for you
But that won't do"

So Nojima confirms the song is about the group and not just cloud, though I feel some of the lyrics have to be specifically about cloud but i digress. To me the burden born to bear is that she has to die in order for her to defy AC as fate. the line "If only I'd never known" and "lived a life without a care save for you" go together. If only she didn't know what she had to do, she would live a regular life caring only for her cloud and the others. But the end there she says she knows she can't do that.

This gets into my theory that dream date(OG) aerith was the main architect of a plan to prevent AC from happening, thus saving her friends from suffering and humanity ending once again. This is all under the assumption the remake is a sequel to the OG and the universe has essentially reset with the lifestream being the thing that remains the same. This is how OG aerith and Seph survive. Aerith sees this and begins her plan to stop sephiroth and AC. However, in order to fulfill this plan, she realises she must die. She this time is sacrificing herself willingly to save her friends, despite still wanting to be with them. All this leads up to the stab scene where aerith are actively trying to stop cloud from even attempting to block the sword as aerith has planned for this. Cloud does the unthinkable and defies fate(the whispers) and deflects the blade only he doesn't affect the main world. The best he can do is create an alternate one where she live, and those are ultimately doomed to die. My hope is the end will have alt aerith saying goodbye maybe even admitting that she wished she could live, similar to Nico Robin in One Piece. This is where for the second time cloud tries to defy fate but he is failing once again. It is now the other party members pitch in and try to pull aerith to the main world. This completes the theme set in AC where cloud learns that he can't just be a lone wolf, he needs others. It could even be the inverse of AC where Zack and Aerith push Cloud from the back, here its the party pull aerith from the front forward. They pull her to the real world yadda yadda happy end. Whatever ship you chose who cloud ends up with. This is not how I expect it to be written if they do plan on keeping her alive, its just a rough idea. Realistically its a slim chance they do this. More likely the just do the goodbye and retcon AC. Im hoping devs see how Japanese fans really want aerith to survive as there were polls on what japanese fans wanted to see most and bout 33% of voters wanted her to survive.

Also I don't see any set up with Zack tbh

 

[Sacky]

About that. The ring is not the only one shown. Denzel and Barrett seem to have one as well. So I don't think they're married but they're definitely a couple. I see it as since it's after the apocalypse they got together but marriage isn't exactly the first priority. But I would definitely say the narrative treats them as a couple that lives together unmarried that have been together and raise kids together to the point they might as well be married.

So they don't say she is his wife because she isn't but they do call her koibito. Someone's girlfriend and important woman.

Yeah I looked up all the ring's all being Fenrir representing Cloud and the family dynamic. I just could never understand the family of friends argument, are we really to believe Barret would want to live in a bar with his 2 much younger friends who we know that he knows has feelings for one another, and not want a place to himself XD

 

[Sacky]

I guess we just agree to disagree here. I just don't see the mind repair as a reciprocal romantic event. Their relationship is super important to the series but it doesn't have to be romantic in order for it be make sense. Also I could go on a whole tangent bout dev statements and how they are very vague and contradictory. Plus if it ends the exact same the whole defy fate stuff was for nothing all to end up with AC as the conclusion, a movie that was universally rated poorly in terms of plot. I don't see how they don't retcon that, cuz what other fate can we defy? As for the kiss. I guess this is a matter of what you believe is more intimate a kiss or interlocking hands. From the little reaseach I've done, interlocking hands like that in Japan is called the lover's tie. In general it thought the scene was very intimate, on par with the kiss. It was two different kinds of romance. One is passionate a kiss is the prototypical romantic gesture. The other is a more reserved romantic moment. Think of your grandparents, holding hands resting their heads atop one another. Equally as romantic in my eyes.

For the set up of aerith wanting to live and her happy ending, I specifiy it doesn't necessarily have to do with just cloud, not everything bout the story is romance. Its more so bout the group. In the full version of NPTK, she sings:
"If only I'd never known
All the burdens I was born to bear
Lived a life without a care in the world save for you
But that won't do"

So Nojima confirms the song is about the group and not just cloud, though I feel some of the lyrics have to be specifically about cloud but i digress. To me the burden born to bear is that she has to die in order for her to defy AC as fate. the line "If only I'd never known" and "lived a life without a care save for you" go together. If only she didn't know what she had to do, she would live a regular life caring only for her cloud and the others. But the end there she says she knows she can't do that.

This gets into my theory that dream date(OG) aerith was the main architect of a plan to prevent AC from happening, thus saving her friends from suffering and humanity ending once again. This is all under the assumption the remake is a sequel to the OG and the universe has essentially reset with the lifestream being the thing that remains the same. This is how OG aerith and Seph survive. Aerith sees this and begins her plan to stop sephiroth and AC. However, in order to fulfill this plan, she realises she must die. She this time is sacrificing herself willingly to save her friends, despite still wanting to be with them. All this leads up to the stab scene where aerith are actively trying to stop cloud from even attempting to block the sword as aerith has planned for this. Cloud does the unthinkable and defies fate(the whispers) and deflects the blade only he doesn't affect the main world. The best he can do is create an alternate one where she live, and those are ultimately doomed to die. My hope is the end will have alt aerith saying goodbye maybe even admitting that she wished she could live, similar to Nico Robin in One Piece. This is where for the second time cloud tries to defy fate but he is failing once again. It is now the other party members pitch in and try to pull aerith to the main world. This completes the theme set in AC where cloud learns that he can't just be a lone wolf, he needs others. It could even be the inverse of AC where Zack and Aerith push Cloud from the back, here its the party pull aerith from the front forward. They pull her to the real world yadda yadda happy end. Whatever ship you chose who cloud ends up with. This is not how I expect it to be written if they do plan on keeping her alive, its just a rough idea. Realistically its a slim chance they do this. More likely the just do the goodbye and retcon AC. Im hoping devs see how Japanese fans really want aerith to survive as there were polls on what japanese fans wanted to see most and bout 33% of voters wanted her to survive.

Also I don't see any set up with Zack tbh

I've got a post earlier about all the Zack set up il find it when I'm on pc. The "feelings that no one can ever know" from Cloud about his feelings for Tifa which have been confirmed again in Nojimas book right before Rebirth. Makes it clear the lifestream is a very much romantic based. There's also various quotes confirming this and part 3 is going to make that Very clear this time

The burden born to bear was actually confirmed in that interview to be about her role as a cetra Aerith just wants to live a normal life but her being a cetra means she must fulfil her role to stop Sephiroths plans. Lovers tie can be with lovers but also friends and family someone else here can probably explain that better. The thing is does cloud see that as romantic though cause afterwards he just says I didn't do anything

 

[abzy1200]

I guess we just agree to disagree here. I just don't see the mind repair as a reciprocal romantic event. Their relationship is super important to the series but it doesn't have to be romantic in order for it be make sense. Also I could go on a whole tangent bout dev statements and how they are very vague and contradictory

Except it does, 2k gil to a hero confirms those feelings are romantic on Cloud's end.

Cloud fought his whole life to be accepted by Tifa, to be a "special existence" to her.

He confirms mutual feelings of love with her through acts of intimacy under the highwind.

You don't do this kind of thing for people you only see as a friend.

 

[abzy1200]

As for the kiss. I guess this is a matter of what you believe is more intimate a kiss or interlocking hands. From the little reaseach I've done, interlocking hands like that in Japan is called the lover's tie. In general it thought the scene was very intimate, on par with the kiss. It was two different kinds of romance. One is passionate a kiss is the prototypical romantic gesture. The other is a more reserved romantic moment. Think of your grandparents, holding hands resting their heads atop one another. Equally as romantic in my eyes.

Think of it like this:

How many people online were clamoring for a kiss, and then how many people online were clamoring for interlocked fingers?

That will tell you everything you need to know about the situation, and what people have to say in regards to how romantic both of them are.

EDIT: and if we want to apply japanese standards to ff7, then even in the case of Cloud and Tifa not sharing a bedroom, that is a very common thing for married couples in Japan.

 

[Sacky]

Except it does, 2k gil to a hero confirms those feelings are romantic on Cloud's end.

Cloud fought his whole life to be accepted by Tifa, to be a "special existence" to her.

He confirms mutual feelings of love with her through acts of intimacy under the highwind.

You don't do this kind of thing for people you only see as a friend.

Highwind is actually a continuation from the feelings learned in the lifestream and both versions have Cloud and Tifa spend the night together lying on each other. The ultimanias also explain both versions they confirm mutual feelings

 

[Yoru]

I guess we just agree to disagree here. I just don't see the mind repair as a reciprocal romantic event. Their relationship is super important to the series but it doesn't have to be romantic in order for it be make sense.

I'm sorry but it's just wrong.

LS scene is not about finding the truth of what happened. It's about finding the real Cloud. The Cloud who doesn't have to use a Soldier persona to exist. And how we did this ? By exposing his most secret memories, memories that nobody can't see (word for word by the man himself).
And what are these memories ? Cloud whole existence being linked to Tifa. Cloud wanting to be noticed by Tifa. Cloud wanting to protect Tifa. CLOUD BEING IN LOVE WITH TIFA.

And what does Tifa says to heal him and make him accept who he is ? THAT SHE LOVED HIM FROM THE START. That he didn't have to do all this. She loves Cloud from Nibelheim. The strange neighboor.

His subconscious is even telling her to tell Cloud when he'll be awake that she kept looking in the newspapers if he made it to Soldier. Literally telling him she was thinking about him while he was gone.

How is it not romantic ? Seriously.

You just want to see what's you wanna see.

 

[Sacky]

I'm sorry but it's just wrong.

LS scene is not about finding the truth of what happened. It's about finding the real Cloud. The Cloud who don't have to use a Soldier persona to exist. And how we did this ? By exposing his most secret memories, memories that nobody can't see (word for word by the man itself).
And what are these memories ? Cloud whole existence being linked to Tifa. Cloud wanting to be noticed by Tifa. Cloud wanting to protect Tifa. CLOUD BEING IN LOVE WITH TIFA.

And what does Tifa says to heal him and make him accept who he is ? THAT SHE LOVED HIM FROM THE START. That he didn't have to do all this. She loves Cloud from Nibelheim. The strange neighboor.

His subconscious is even telling her to tell Cloud when he'll be awake that she kept looking in the newspapers if he made it to Soldier. Literally telling him she was thinking about him while he was gone.

How is it not romantic ? Seriously.

You just want to see what's you wanna see.

A lot of people really do miss this part of the lifestream sequence. I can't tell if it's from just not grapsing it playing it when younger. Or just people not reading the dialogue?