SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Here's an open question that I was thinking about: Why does Tifa love Cloud (at the beginning of the game?) They are established to have not been close as kids, and Cloud hasn't been in sector 7 long, so what is the attraction at the time? Is it an emotional attachment due to him being the last remnant of her lost home, or are these feelings she's been hiding since her youth?

Is it established that she is 'in love' with Cloud at the start of the game? She obviously cares about him and is concerned about him, and there's obviously a sexual attraction there - although Cloud seems to not fully understand those feelings! He's an old friend; he's an important piece of her lost life in Nibelheim, which she'd thought gone forever. He's something saved from the fire.

There's a lot of stages to be gone through before arriving at full-flown passionate, romantic love, and I don't think Tifa has reached the end of that journey yet.

Moreover, even if she thinks she loves Cloud, who is it that she loves? The Cloud of her memory? The Cloud of her imagination? The Cloud he could be? She's astute. She knows there's something wrong about him. He's not always the Cloud she remembers. Sometimes, he scares her. Things between them are awkward on many levels.

You don't have to be romantically in love with someone in order to be jealous of them. The word jealous often gets confused with envy, but what jealous means is "protective of one's rights and interests". We can be jealous of our friends, our siblings, even our parents.

I think what I'm trying to say is, Tifa's feelings for Cloud are very complicated, and she doesn't understand them herself yet. Which is as it should be. She's got at least two more installments to get through, during which time her love can and should grow, mature, and solidify.

 

[MasterMoogle]

I agree with this.

FFVIII kind of gives you that story of Aerith and Cloud ending up together with Rinoa and Squall.

Rinoa may look like Tifa but she has a lot of Aerith's characteristics and Squall has a lot of Cloud's characteristics although Squall is himself and not a basket case like Cloud.

Personally, I'm not a fan of Rinoa and Squall together for the exact same reasons. Squall would eventually bring her down and domesticate her too much. Conversely, Rinoa would push him too far and too quickly out of his comfort zone, and wouldn't be sensitive to his needs.

I think it works better when the genders are reversed, such as with Zidane/Garnet, but only if the man can remain devoted and faithful.

 

[Yumelinh]

on a more silly note, it seems like Aerith isn't the only one to imitates Cloud's idle pose:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1261913510230949890

If we get Barret doing this as well my life will be complete!!!

 

[Final_Heaven]

Personally, I'm not a fan of Rinoa and Squall together for the exact same reasons. Squall would eventually bring her down and domesticate her too much. Conversely, Rinoa would push him too far and too quickly out of his comfort zone, and wouldn't be sensitive to his needs.

I think it works better when the genders are reversed, such as with Zidane/Garnet, but only if the man can remain devoted and faithful.

I don't like Rinoa and Squall for those same reasons. As an introverted person, I would get exhausted if my SO was an extrovert that frequently tried to push me out of my comfort zone. It's cool sparingly and why I would prefer that person as a best friend rather than someone to be in a relationship with.

Is it established that she is 'in love' with Cloud at the start of the game? She obviously cares about him and is concerned about him, and there's obviously a sexual attraction there - although Cloud seems to not fully understand those feelings! He's an old friend; he's an important piece of her lost life in Nibelheim, which she'd thought gone forever. He's something saved from the fire.

There's a lot of stages to be gone through before arriving at full-flown passionate, romantic love, and I don't think Tifa has reached the end of that journey yet.

Moreover, even if she thinks she loves Cloud, who is it that she loves? The Cloud of her memory? The Cloud of her imagination? The Cloud he could be? She's astute. She knows there's something wrong about him. He's not always the Cloud she remembers. Sometimes, he scares her. Things between them are awkward on many levels.

You don't have to be romantically in love with someone in order to be jealous of them. The word jealous often gets confused with envy, but what jealous means is "protective of one's rights and interests". We can be jealous of our friends, our siblings, even our parents.

I think what I'm trying to say is, Tifa's feelings for Cloud are very complicated, and she doesn't understand them herself yet. Which is as it should be. She's got at least two more installments to get through, during which time her love can and should grow, mature, and solidify.

If we go through Crisis Core's continuity, yeah, she's in some type of love with him or rather crushing on him very hard.

There's an email that she sends to Zack mentioning wanting a blonde SOLDIER for a boyfriend (she's talking about Cloud) and according to Square, she's wearing that cowgirl outfit to look sexy for Cloud. People don't tend to try to look sexy for friends.

That's not even getting into all the cues that she starts giving Cloud in that water tower scene which is meant to be a dating spot.

I do think her love matures as she gets to know Cloud better though but the way the narrative treats it, Tifa basically imprinted on Cloud once he agreed to that promise.

 

[Master Bates]

on a more silly note, it seems like Aerith isn't the only one to imitates Cloud's idle pose:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1261913510230949890

If we get Barret doing this as well my life will be complete!!!

Those are cultural dance steps in Nibelheim, taught to Nibelheim children at a young age.

 

[Eerie]

I think those are management resources, but yeah it's quite funny :'D

As for Tifa, yes, she was in love with Cloud by the time the Nibelheim incident happened. But to her, this incident is also a huge turn, as she lost everything, she had to grow up fast after that. It's interesting that she held onto these feelings, their nature probably changed as she changed too. I mean, she rejected this guy with a bouquet of flowers but was visibly happy with Cloud giving her one flower and a compliment later on. So obviously, those feelings are still here, and are probably maturing into a "true love" type as she gets to know Cloud better.

On a side note, thinking about it, people may be less surprised to learn hat Cloud did it all to impress Tifa with the way Remake is making it so crystal clear that she is special to him.

 

[Graymouse]

. I mean, she rejected this guy with a bouquet of flowers but was visibly happy with Cloud giving her one flower and a compliment later on.

Yeah, if I remember correctly what Barret said about Al the intel guy. He had a way with the ladies, but Tifa saw through his BS and rejected him hardcore. Ah, Indeed. I didn't think about the correlation between those two things. The flower just had to come from the "right" guy.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Yeah, if I remember correctly what Barret said about Al the intel guy. He had a way with the ladies, but Tifa saw through his BS and rejected him hardcore. Ah, Indeed. I didn't think about the correlation between those two things. The flower just had to come from the "right" guy.

I'm actually impressed with how devoted Tifa and Aerith are to the memory of the men they're infatuated with. For Tifa it's been seven years, and for Aerith it's been five years since they last saw Cloud/Zack respectively.

It's not even realistic.

 

[eleamaya]

I'm actually impressed with how devoted Tifa and Aerith are to the memory of the men they're infatuated with. For Tifa it's been seven years, and for Aerith it's been five years since they last saw Cloud/Zack respectively.

It's not even realistic.

Maybe it's portrayed like WorldWar soldiers? So many fiancees and wives were faithfully waitin' for their men in years 'til the war over. But not all comin' back.

 

[Eerie]

Well, it's a childhood friends lovers' story in Cloud and Tifa's cases, so of course they're going to hold those feelings for all these years, it's the basics of the trope.

As for Aerith's feelings towards Zack, I'm not surprised either: I think that Japanese mangas and animes like that trope of the lovers' holding onto their feelings for years - it's extremely romanticised, it's also why the childhood friends' trope works like this. Also, there are people who fall in love with one person and never again, those people exist IRL too.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Tifa was not much more than a little girl when she called Cloud to the water-tower. You can't describe feelings like that as "in love", except in the sense of a childish crush. That whole water-tower conversation was about her - as one would expect from a thirteen or fourteen year old girl who is just beginning to learn how to flirt. You can't compare those feelings to the love felt by a mature woman (or man) for a person she truly knows and understands.

I mean, if nothing else, I would hope her ideas about what love means have advanced somewhat in seven years.

 

[Graymouse]

Tifa was not much more than a little girl when she called Cloud to the water-tower. You can't describe feelings like that as "in love", except in the sense of a childish crush. That whole water-tower conversation was about her - as one would expect from a thirteen or fourteen year old girl who is just beginning to learn how to flirt. You can't compare those feelings to the love felt by a mature woman (or man) for a person she truly knows and understands.

I mean, if nothing else, I would hope her ideas about what love means have advanced somewhat in seven years.

It was actually the other way around. Cloud called Tifa to the water tower that night. A local dating spot I might add.

Also, we now know that Tifa had feelings for Cloud before he left for Midgar. In the Remake during the water tower scene, When Cloud tells Tifa that he is leaving for Midgar, Tifa turns her head and a look of distraught flashed across her face. It looked like her heart was broken in two. Take a look at the scene for yourself. (I guess this can be up to the individual on how that scene can be interpreted)

Spoiler

From the video, there seems to be something there between Tifa and Cloud.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If it was the other way around, then even less reason to suppose thirteen year old Tifa was "in love" with Cloud.
I wouldn't say she looked "distraught". A little upset or disappointed, perhaps.
But even if she was a thirteen year old "in love" and her "heart was broken"... I mean, these two are middle school age at this point. They barely even know what these feelings are; it's all hormones and confusion at that age.

 

[minami758]

Backtracked a bit in the thread and found some discussion about the Resolution scenes. For what it's worth, I have a friend who's playing through the game completely blind — knows nothing about FF7, the world, the characters, who lives/dies, etc. — and she got Aerith's resolution scene. She did all the sidequests for both and chose Tifa in the sewers, died, then chose Aerith. I haven't asked her about shipping preferences, and Barret's her favorite character.

Her text to me after she got it: "'Don't fall in love with me'? That's like, pretty condescending and self-aggrandizing to tell someone you've known for 24 hours."

Just anecdotal, but take that as you will.

 

[Graymouse]

If it was the other way around, then even less reason to suppose thirteen year old Tifa was "in love" with Cloud.
I wouldn't say she looked "distraught". A little upset or disappointed, perhaps.
But even if she was a thirteen year old "in love" and her "heart was broken"... I mean, these two are middle school age at this point. They barely even know what these feelings are; it's all hormones and confusion at that age.

I get what you are saying, for sure. However, you would be quite surprised at how much middle school kids know about things.

To quote David Bowie song "Changes" here,

"they're quite aware of what they're going through"

I don't recall saying "in love" but there are feelings for one another there.

 

[Eerie]

Tifa was not much more than a little girl when she called Cloud to the water-tower. You can't describe feelings like that as "in love", except in the sense of a childish crush. That whole water-tower conversation was about her - as one would expect from a thirteen or fourteen year old girl who is just beginning to learn how to flirt. You can't compare those feelings to the love felt by a mature woman (or man) for a person she truly knows and understands.

I mean, if nothing else, I would hope her ideas about what love means have advanced somewhat in seven years.

I think you are wrong if you think teens aren't able to fall in love - they are, even if it's a long cry from the mature, adult-like love, it's also a necessary step to their development. Also, as I pointed out in the same post:

But to her, this incident is also a huge turn, as she lost everything, she had to grow up fast after that. It's interesting that she held onto these feelings, their nature probably changed as she changed too. I mean, she rejected this guy with a bouquet of flowers but was visibly happy with Cloud giving her one flower and a compliment later on. So obviously, those feelings are still here, and are probably maturing into a "true love" type as she gets to know Cloud better.

Let me be clear, the childhood love trope does rely on kids falling in love with each others, usually not seeing each others for a good while before meeting again. It does not mean that this love cannot change. It does change, that's the whole point, to explore how resilient it is and how it evolves, if it's able to transform into a real kind of love.

The fact that you absolutely refuse that Cloud and Tifa had anything resembling "love" because they were too young doesn't mean they didn't, just like people like to challenge the fact that they were childhood friends, which is repeated ad nauseam by the devs. It's the whole point of the Lifestream scene, it's that Cloud had feelings for her since he was a little kid, and that Tifa developped the same kind of feelings as a teenager. And that those feelings carried on onto adulthood, and transformed into a true love kind of type.

@minami758: the fact that Midgard covered only 2-3 days is the reason why, IMHO, we're seeing so little of clerith (romantically speaking I mean), it'll definitely be developped in the next game me think. And yeah the devs were a bit afraid that Aerith would come out this way, but they also really wanted to make the message pass that she was somehow aware that it was pointless because she was going to die (hence her praying pose).

 

[Maidenofwar]

That's quite unfortunate minami since the development team said they explicitly did not want that to be the case, they didn't want Aerith to seem condescending or for to paint her in a bad light, and everything they did with her they did with great care. I think lack of further push back and Aerith's gentle "If that's what you want, thank you" reflects that very well.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

you would be quite surprised at how much middle school kids know about things.

No, I really wouldn't be surprised!

I spend a lot of time with teenagers and I do remember being one myself. Of course teens fall in love - it's usually pretty intense, obsessive, and self-centred, though not always. And it's usually ephemeral. It's almost like practice love, or love with training wheels on. Even if Tifa did feel this kind of childish love for Cloud, she's not going to be feeling the same kind of love after 7 years of absence, and after having been through and suffered so much, and grown from a girl to a woman. There's less of a gap for Cloud to bridge since he's effectively 16 years old - and that's another hurdle for them to overcome. There is no way these two could just 'pick up where they left off'.

 

[Yumelinh]

It was definitely more of a crush she had for Cloud when she was a teenager, but the point here is that the feelings were there and with enough room to grow ( as they did when they reunited and came to spend more time together.)

Tifa is also the only one that is more self-aware of their interactions and the attraction btw them exactly because she already favors him from the very beginning of the game due to her established feelings from the past.

On the other hand, Cloud seems to have no much clue about his own feelings most of the time. This is very well exemplified with him knowing Tifa is important to him, more than a friend even, but not being able to exactly explain why or what it is. Unlike her, he doesn't remember their past together and neither his previous feelings for her. These memories are blocked, after all.

And that's why I think it's very neat that we have Cloud being so touchy with her in the Remake and even his jealous/protectiveness because these seem to be more of an unconscious reaction he has in spite of his lost memories and feelings.

Remake is making a great job of showing how Cloud avoids confronting anything that can trigger his past. I mean, this guy is seeing visions, having headaches all the time, acting way too jealous of a woman he shouldn't be, but he justs shrug it off it with an "I'm fine!" and keeps going like nothing happened. He never really confronts any of these feelings and moments for once. It's so uneasy watching him doing this, tbh ( which is probably exactly the feeling they wanted to convey).

 

[minami758]

@minami758: the fact that Midgard covered only 2-3 days is the reason why, IMHO, we're seeing so little of clerith (romantically speaking I mean), it'll definitely be developped in the next game me think. And yeah the devs were a bit afraid that Aerith would come out this way, but they also really wanted to make the message pass that she was somehow aware that it was pointless because she was going to die (hence her praying pose).

That's quite unfortunate minami since the development team said they explicitly did not want that to be the case, they didn't want Aerith to seem condescending or for to paint her in a bad light, and everything they did with her they did with great care. I think lack of further push back and Aerith's gentle "If that's what you want, thank you" reflects that very well.

Of course! I understand what the devs' intentions were — I've read the Ultimania interview and I remember they mentioned that several on the staff were worried about that particular line coming off as condescending or something of that ilk, but opted to keep it in for veterans of the game as a direct reference to her tragic fate and other things to come. Her dialogue is heavy for those who're familiar with the overall story, but I think it's interesting to hear from a perspective that doesn't know the story at all. And that the devs' concerns were not misplaced, that some people could read that scene as presumptuous.

 

[Purple]

That would explain why there was so much discussion with the developers whether or not to include that line. I also saw a first time FF7 player on stream say that it’s “the most egotistical thing” to say. I guess for some new players the significance of the line will just fly by over their heads but I guess most new players would still be intrigued with that line

 

[Yumelinh]

Aerith's line was a calculated risk. It was put there for the older players for sure. So it's no wonder that if you have no much knowledge or clue about her future ( or Cloud's fake persona) you just won't get that line in the same light as an older player will do. The devs concerns were well ground it seems so.

But I don't think it will hurt her character in the long run for new players. Things will fall into place once we get to the next parts. The story is still being told, after all.

 

[Purple]

That’s true, considering not all new players would even get her resolution scene in the first place. With or without it, the story would flow just fine, that goes for the other resolution scenes too.

 

[MasterMoogle]

@minami758: the fact that Midgard covered only 2-3 days is the reason why, IMHO, we're seeing so little of clerith (romantically speaking I mean), it'll definitely be developped in the next game me think. And yeah the devs were a bit afraid that Aerith would come out this way, but they also really wanted to make the message pass that she was somehow aware that it was pointless because she was going to die (hence her praying pose).

No they won't, because CxA's relationship was so paper-thin to begin with, and never meant to progress beyond a certain point.

 

[Master Bates]

Aerith's warning was not to Cloud; it was a meta-warning to the players, because if we fall in love with her and she dies, the pain is going to hurt so bad.

I can already feel it. The hurt.