SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
I believe there was a guidebook or manual that mentioned Aerith as Tifa's love rival. (Not sure if it was exclusive to NA or if it was included in the JP version as well). So I am not sure if that is considered canon to the FFVII lore
Yes there is, but I'm pretty sure manuals like that would also claim that Cloud is an 'Ex-SOLDIER' even though he's not and never was, and they aren't going to completely spoil story developments that recontextualise everything in something that's only supposed to give you a briefing on what you should expect.

In an interview, there was a programmer during the FFVII OG days that thought Tifa and Aerith were rivals or were jealous of each other. I think Nojima was surprised by this which is why he put more focus on Tifa and Aerith's friendship in the Remake project. (correct me if I'm wrong).
Can't really blame them, the scene in the holding cells in Shinra HQ can very easily give off that vibe. Accompanied by a passage from I think Tifa's profile in the Crisis Core ultimania? anyway, it basically says "as a woman, Tifa holds complex feelings towards Aerith."

and again, that excerpt from Maiden that straight up has Aerith say she's jealous of Tifa.

I'm glad Nojima is somewhat rectifying that issue, even if their friendship sort of feels like a womens' friendship written by a man.

EDIT: just clarifying that I don't actually think Tifa and Aerith were jealous of each other in ff7, I'm just saying it's easy to get the wrong impression based off scenes early in the game.
 
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Hellenic

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Hellenic
It's similar to how I feel about FFX and FFX-2. Do I like FFX-2 from a plot POV? No. But am I happy that TiYu reunited in the perfect ending? Yes. Does it make sense? No. Do I care? Also no. Because at the end of the day, I'm just a selfish fan who wanted them to reunite and they did lol
I personally don't like that they brought Tidus back, couse it felt like it took away from the ending of 10 for me a lot, which i think is one of the strongest FF endings in general, so i'm a little soured about it.

Overall though, i can always pretend the perfect ending doesn't exist in 10-2, so it doesn't bother me whenever i replay 10-2 and such. Not like i play that game for story anyway.
 

Hellenic

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Hellenic
I know Aerith gets brutally murdered but somehow I never think of her having a bad ending lol. I think because in AC she seems so ethereal and is with Zack.
It's a happy ending in her own terms in the Lifestream with Zack. Not every happy ending to me needs to be in the world of the living.
 

A-to-Z

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Maybe it’s just me but I assumed Cloud brought up ZA in the CT GS date because in his head ZA share mutual feelings. It fitted the romantic atmosphere, that’s why he considers it a touchy subject because it’s the romantic situation of his and Tifa’s mutual friend, its a touchy subject to Aerti because it alludes to his identity crisis, but for Cloud the topic of ZA is about feelings of mutual love with no closure as of yet (which was relevant to CT’s current situation), and when he said “Aerith must still have feelings for Zack” it’s because Cloud still has feelings for Tifa and wanted to tread on the topic of people still having feelings for someone they knew for a long time. (I thought this was his way of gauging Tifa’s thoughts on the topic of first love; since iirc he overheard them talking about it back in Junon too, right?)

Also I love Zerith, it’s my otp, but in my opinion the biggest reason why Aerith can’t exactly move on from Zack is because Cloud has a persona based on Zack traits. Zack has been gone for 5 years, and after Aerith wrote him the 89th letter, to me that was already a sign of willing to let go of her unresolved feelings for him. So why couldn’t she let go? Because Cloud is the trigger. Because ever since she met Cloud, whenever she looks at him, she admittedly sees Zack. And this wouldn’t happen if Aerith became interested in any other person— just with Cloud. She would’ve moved on normally, but Cloud appeared. That’s why her feelings are complicated because she knows it’s been 5 years but Cloud’s presence reignites her feelings; Cloud makes her feel how much she truly loved Zack, his presence by itself makes her miss Zack to the point of subconsciously recreating their memories together — but with Cloud instead.

She must be so conflicted and bothered, I imagine in her perspective it’s like “finally after 5 long years of pain and no response from that other guy here’s another chance at falling in love— but wait why is he so suspiciously similar with the first one?” And she likes Cloud, I’m of the opinion that she truly wanted to get to know him in a romantic way (that she was attracted to Cloud beyond seeing Zack in him) but I can admit the depth of those feelings for Cloud are arguably not as deep as those she felt for Zack. And her liking Cloud now does not do her any favors in regard to moving on from Zack because liking Cloud means liking the Zack parts that he’s currently emulating, which just reinforces her already established love— for Zack. And inevitably she doesn’t get to know the side of Cloud who’s the truest form of himself, and that’s part of her tragedy. But because Cloud is emulating Zack, Aerith must think does she like like Cloud— or only because of the Zack parts? For the players some have already decided on an answer, but it’s still currently muddled for Aerith.

It’s not as black and white as “oh she can’t love another man because she’s still in love with Zack”. Zack has been GONE and she understands that. Aerith is still alive and whether or not she knows Zack died, she was still left hanging, her love unrequited for YEARS. She wants to move on clearly proven by her actions but can’t have closure because Cloud’s memories are a mess + Cloud himself is a walking symbol of Zack. Cloud doesn’t get why Aerith’s feelings are complicated because he isn’t self-aware of his Soldier!persona. If Aerith were to open up to Tifa it would be something similar to “I thought I was over him (Zack), but Cloud acting like that makes me confused.” That’s how Tifa would understand that Aerith’s feelings are complicated.

for me, Cloud’s Soldier!persona can be divided into 3 parts,
  • his ideal version of himself who made it into Soldier,
  • the Zack parts,
  • and the Sephiroth parts(the cruel and violent part, the version of him who Sephiroth constantly manipulates).
The Sephiroth parts are what both Tifa and Aerith are trying to suppress. The “ideal version of himself” is the one Aerith is crushing on (regardless of the fact that Cloud as a whole favors Tifa over any other girl) ALONG with the Zack parts.

Yes this might be irrelevant on a larger view of the LTD, because most discussions center on who Cloud loves but it matters for Aerith’s character, because we can recognize and acknowledge her effort in wanting to get closure and wanting to moving on, she doesn’t have to think of Zack whenever she hangs out with Cloud, (but she can’t help it because of Cloud himself, and that’s the point) and she’s definitely not obligated to. To me it’s just inaccurate to say “oh she’s still so hung up on Zack” yes she struggles when dealing with grief but she’s also an optimistic character who lives for tomorrow; she knows it’s not healthy to still be fully in love with a person who’s been gone for 5 years. That’s why she’s sensitive when Cloud asks her if she still likes Zack in Gongaga, (those unanswered feelings for Zack are deeply personal to her) and that’s why she’s not sure in her wording when she answers him; because she’s not exactly proud of having feelings reminiscent of the past, reminiscent of the suffering she endured when she was missing Zack, which is natural.

But she knows (or realizes) that it’s also not healthy to completely love a person who will always inevitably remind you of that tragic love from long ago, the same one you want to move on from (especially if you have no knowledge of the real identity of this new person, no knowledge of the person she’s trying so hard to find). And what’s even the point of being fully committed to a new guy if the feelings you feel for him aren’t as deep as the one before? But to Aerith, what matters is that she tried loving this new guy, she gave him a chance because that’s what life is all about, she got to spend time with Cloud, go on “dates”with him and that’s enough. It’s a testament to her worldview— she wants to live normally; fall in love normally. But even when her freedom is constricted, even if she can’t have everything she wants, she makes do of what she has, makes do of what short time they have together and makes precious memories out of it, which she treasures regardless.

If you compare CA and ZA, Tifa’s existence as the woman revealed to be the one Cloud loves all this time, along with Cloud’s identity crisis are both the biggest hurdles of that ship coming to fruition, whereas for ZA the only thing that ever came between them was physical separation (and this is made clearer in Rebirth) and that’s why when ZA reunite, it’s going to be fulfilling on both ends.

(Sorry for the long rant, just needed to let it out)
 

Hellenic

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AKA
Hellenic
In Rebirth, Aerith and Cloud's relationship doesn't get much character development. Sure, she is constantly playfully teasing him but it doesn't provide the player with any useful information in regards to what she is experiencing internally. Its all on the surface. Its even more confusing to connect the dots because the narrative seems to push Aerith being a wingman (for a lack of better word) for Tifa and Cloud. We explore her traumatic past. We are introduced to her lingerings feelings for Zack. Yet there is no exploration regarding her internal emotional conflicts with Cloud.
This is why i can't really buy into the Cloud and Aerith ship at all, couse the game doesn't spend any real time developing it to anything deeper, like how it has multiple set pieces for Cloud and Tifa on the other hand.

I would be more willing to understand some peoples takes that imply the game was heavily leaning on Clerith if something similar to Cloud and Tifas scenes actually existed, but all we really get is the optional Gold Saucer date and the dream date and both of those are used to basically tell you that these 2 just don't work as a couple in the current circumstances.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Maybe it’s just me but I assumed Cloud brought up ZA in the CT GS date because in his head ZA share mutual feelings. It fitted the romantic atmosphere, that’s why he considers it a touchy subject because it’s the romantic situation of his and Tifa’s mutual friend, its a touchy subject to Aerti because it alludes to his identity crisis, but for Cloud the topic of ZA is about feelings of mutual love with no closure as of yet (which was relevant to CT’s current situation), and when he said “Aerith must still have feelings for Zack” it’s because Cloud still has feelings for Tifa and wanted to tread on the topic of people still having feelings for someone they knew for a long time. (I thought this was his way of gauging Tifa’s thoughts on the topic of first love; since iirc he overheard them talking about it back in Junon too, right?)

Also I love Zerith, it’s my otp, but in my opinion the biggest reason why Aerith can’t exactly move on from Zack is because Cloud has a persona based on Zack traits. Zack has been gone for 5 years, and after Aerith wrote him the 89th letter, to me that was already a sign of willing to let go of her unresolved feelings for him. So why couldn’t she let go? Because Cloud is the trigger. Because ever since she met Cloud, whenever she looks at him, she admittedly sees Zack. And this wouldn’t happen if Aerith became interested in any other person— just with Cloud. She would’ve moved on normally, but Cloud appeared. That’s why her feelings are complicated because she knows it’s been 5 years but Cloud’s presence reignites her feelings; Cloud makes her feel how much she truly loved Zack, his presence by itself makes her miss Zack to the point of subconsciously recreating their memories together — but with Cloud instead.

She must be so conflicted and bothered, I imagine in her perspective it’s like “finally after 5 long years of pain and no response from that other guy here’s another chance at falling in love— but wait why is he so suspiciously similar with the first one?” And she likes Cloud, I’m of the opinion that she truly wanted to get to know him in a romantic way (that she was attracted to Cloud beyond seeing Zack in him) but I can admit the depth of those feelings for Cloud are arguably not as deep as those she felt for Zack. And her liking Cloud now does not do her any favors in regard to moving on from Zack because liking Cloud means liking the Zack parts that he’s currently emulating, which just reinforces her already established love— for Zack. And inevitably she doesn’t get to know the side of Cloud who’s the truest form of himself, and that’s part of her tragedy. But because Cloud is emulating Zack, Aerith must think does she like like Cloud— or only because of the Zack parts? For the players some have already decided on an answer, but it’s still currently muddled for Aerith.

It’s not as black and white as “oh she can’t love another man because she’s still in love with Zack”. Zack has been GONE and she understands that. Aerith is still alive and whether or not she knows Zack died, she was still left hanging, her love unrequited for YEARS. She wants to move on clearly proven by her actions but can’t have closure because Cloud’s memories are a mess + Cloud himself is a walking symbol of Zack. Cloud doesn’t get why Aerith’s feelings are complicated because he isn’t self-aware of his Soldier!persona. If Aerith were to open up to Tifa it would be something similar to “I thought I was over him (Zack), but Cloud acting like that makes me confused.” That’s how Tifa would understand that Aerith’s feelings are complicated.

for me, Cloud’s Soldier!persona can be divided into 3 parts,
  • his ideal version of himself who made it into Soldier,
  • the Zack parts,
  • and the Sephiroth parts(the cruel and violent part, the version of him who Sephiroth constantly manipulates).
The Sephiroth parts are what both Tifa and Aerith are trying to suppress. The “ideal version of himself” is the one Aerith is crushing on (regardless of the fact that Cloud as a whole favors Tifa over any other girl) ALONG with the Zack parts.

Yes this might be irrelevant on a larger view of the LTD, because most discussions center on who Cloud loves but it matters for Aerith’s character, because we can recognize and acknowledge her effort in wanting to get closure and wanting to moving on, she doesn’t have to think of Zack whenever she hangs out with Cloud, (but she can’t help it because of Cloud himself, and that’s the point) and she’s definitely not obligated to. To me it’s just inaccurate to say “oh she’s still so hung up on Zack” yes she struggles when dealing with grief but she’s also an optimistic character who lives for tomorrow; she knows it’s not healthy to still be fully in love with a person who’s been gone for 5 years. That’s why she’s sensitive when Cloud asks her if she still likes Zack in Gongaga, (those unanswered feelings for Zack are deeply personal to her) and that’s why she’s not sure in her wording when she answers him; because she’s not exactly proud of having feelings reminiscent of the past, reminiscent of the suffering she endured when she was missing Zack, which is natural.

But she knows (or realizes) that it’s also not healthy to completely love a person who will always inevitably remind you of that tragic love from long ago, the same one you want to move on from (especially if you have no knowledge of the real identity of this new person, no knowledge of the person she’s trying so hard to find). And what’s even the point of being fully committed to a new guy if the feelings you feel for him aren’t as deep as the one before? But to Aerith, what matters is that she tried loving this new guy, she gave him a chance because that’s what life is all about, she got to spend time with Cloud, go on “dates”with him and that’s enough. It’s a testament to her worldview— she wants to live normally; fall in love normally. But even when her freedom is constricted, even if she can’t have everything she wants, she makes do of what she has, makes do of what short time they have together and makes precious memories out of it, which she treasures regardless.

If you compare CA and ZA, Tifa’s existence as the woman revealed to be the one Cloud loves all this time, along with Cloud’s identity crisis are both the biggest hurdles of that ship coming to fruition, whereas for ZA the only thing that ever came between them was physical separation (and this is made clearer in Rebirth) and that’s why when ZA reunite, it’s going to be fulfilling on both ends.

(Sorry for the long rant, just needed to let it out)
Something I'd like to add, and sorry if you already mentioned it or implied it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but are we even sure Aerith would be into the real Cloud? I know it sounds disengenuous, but would she actually have fell in love with the real Cloud had she gotten the chance to get to know him?
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Iirc there was Ultimania saying she liked the dorky/clumsy aspect of Cloud, that she saw through to the truth, that he wasn't Zack.

In OG also we know she was asking questions about Cloud, so I always figured she was puzzling over differences and similarities, then by the time she says you're different Cloud she's willing to give it a bash but then circumstances happen.
 

Hellenic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Hellenic
I think it's because in Remake she had her future memories and here she lost context. Also I'm not sure how much she knows about Cloud and Tifa in Rebirth because for Cloud his feelings were "a secret wish, no one could ever know" and in Traces Of Two Pasts Tifa doesn't tell Aerith about her childhood with Cloud right? She reminices about it alone? Can someone confirm?
Yeah iirc her past bits with Cloud she only thought of in her head, but didn't really share with Aerith there. Though Yuffie does seem to know that Tifa had a crush on Cloud so it's probably safe to assume Aerith would at least know that much too.
 
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Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
Yeah iirc her past bits with Cloud she only thought in her own head, but didn't really share with Aerith there. Though Yuffie does seem to know that Tifa had a crush on Cloud so it's probably safe to assume Aerith would at least know that much too.
I guess the tender feelings no one can never know is the extent of his love for Tifa which shaped his childhood and dreams of becoming a soldier
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
Something I'd like to add, and sorry if you already mentioned it or implied it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but are we even sure Aerith would be into the real Cloud? I know it sounds disengenuous, but would she actually have fell in love with the real Cloud had she gotten the chance to get to know him?
Maybe? Trying to be charitable, I think Remake did a good job showing that multiple people without any special powers are able to see through Cloud’s persona given a stretch of time to interact with him.

Biggs basically nailed Cloud’s personality as a kid due to him having experience with the orphanage. Hell, I think he even was that kid himself.

Marle does something similar, recognizing that this incomplete persona of a person isn’t what Tifa needs in her life.

So could Aerith somewhat piece out what Cloud is really like? Maybe to some degree, at least enough to want to meet him… but all I can say is maybe?

It’s just so telling that Tifa struggles with her feelings with Cloud in his persona, really only being fiercely drawn to him when he’s being vulnerable with her, but once that vulnerability is his every moment, she’s all on the Cloud train. Aerith? Can’t say there’s any way to know, especially in a short period of time.
 

A-to-Z

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Something I'd like to add, and sorry if you already mentioned it or implied it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but are we even sure Aerith would be into the real Cloud? I know it sounds disengenuous, but would she actually have fell in love with the real Cloud had she gotten the chance to get to know him?
In my opinion, asking these sorts of questions kind of takes away from what message we’re supposed to take from CA’s connection. To understand the canon portrayal of CA’s bond fully, I feel like one should have to abstain from seeing them in an exclusively romantic light, because the canon platonic CA bond coexists with CT, the intended romance arc for Cloud which has the romantic pay-off. For me whether or not Aerith can love real Cloud or not is irrelevant to both of their characters, not only because that concept is never touched upon or addressed in the narrative, but also because by the end of the story and by ACC they already have a deep spiritual bond that they built together, still profound regardless of the lack of mutual romantic feelings. Obviously you’re supposed to feel like “I wish she had met this version” because even if she’s not Tifa, the woman who Cloud will always love, Aerith is still a precious person who Cloud lost. Just like how Cloud (with the fake identity or not) eventually became a symbol of life and a symbol of the living for Aerith (a person she wants to protect), Aerith was a symbol of “Life” for Cloud too. How she treasured every moment in ways that was strange to him at first, how she valued the future and lived for tomorrow, she’ll always be someone he warmed up to, someone he became willing to comfort in her grief despite his aloof self, someone who recognized his weakness before he did and was caring for him when she said “focus on yourself”. Doesn’t matter if he’s fake or not, doesn’t matter if she’s dead or not, they’re comrades who support each other unconditionally. I believe that’s the pay-off of their arc.

Edit: added a phrase and a sentence for clarity
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Not me who said this btw
I say "attempts" regarding the retcon because it is an objectively bad retcon. It effectively creates two canons, as there is such a colossal disparity between the story elements (and specifically Zack's portrayal) in Crisis Core and FF7 that both versions of events simply can't be true. The only way you could do it would be, possibly, what the Remake trilogy is driving at - by saying they happened in parallel universes.

The cope is now reaching levels of it has to be a parallel universe to explain it. Or we could simply say Zack was not a womanizer and the writers
probably don't want to portray their hero character of Zack as one, Crisis core is the correct version and it was so vague in OG that the OG one doesn't matter But what do i know?
Zack's "portrayal" in FF7 is him literally chunks of Cloud from before the lifestream sequence and the scenes of the ShinRa escape and him giving his life to protect Cloud despite being in the home stretch to go see Aerith again.

How the fuck does any of that contradict Crisis Core?
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Maybe? Trying to be charitable, I think Remake did a good job showing that multiple people without any special powers are able to see through Cloud’s persona given a stretch of time to interact with him.

Biggs basically nailed Cloud’s personality as a kid due to him having experience with the orphanage. Hell, I think he even was that kid himself.

Marle does something similar, recognizing that this incomplete persona of a person isn’t what Tifa needs in her life.

So could Aerith somewhat piece out what Cloud is really like? Maybe to some degree, at least enough to want to meet him… but all I can say is maybe?

It’s just so telling that Tifa struggles with her feelings with Cloud in his persona, really only being fiercely drawn to him when he’s being vulnerable with her, but once that vulnerability is his every moment, she’s all on the Cloud train. Aerith? Can’t say there’s any way to know, especially in a short period of time.

Pretty much.

We're not even sure Aerith loves (like really being in love) the actual Cloud to begin with. So talking about the Real Cloud is already a stretch in itself.

Sure people notice something is wrong with him. They know he plays a role because let's be honnest, he's not that good not showing it lol.

But there's a difference in the narrative of FF7 between noticing some tidbits of Real Cloud, and knowing the Real Cloud. Because the point of it all is that no one can know. It's impossible. He's borderline missing the part of his soul. Until Mideel and the moment he has to let Tifa enter his mind to protect her from the Mako (something that could change in the Re:trilogy)
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
Maybe it’s just me but I assumed Cloud brought up ZA in the CT GS date because in his head ZA share mutual feelings. It fitted the romantic atmosphere, that’s why he considers it a touchy subject because it’s the romantic situation of his and Tifa’s mutual friend, its a touchy subject to Aerti because it alludes to his identity crisis, but for Cloud the topic of ZA is about feelings of mutual love with no closure as of yet (which was relevant to CT’s current situation), and when he said “Aerith must still have feelings for Zack” it’s because Cloud still has feelings for Tifa and wanted to tread on the topic of people still having feelings for someone they knew for a long time. (I thought this was his way of gauging Tifa’s thoughts on the topic of first love; since iirc he overheard them talking about it back in Junon too, right?)

Also I love Zerith, it’s my otp, but in my opinion the biggest reason why Aerith can’t exactly move on from Zack is because Cloud has a persona based on Zack traits. Zack has been gone for 5 years, and after Aerith wrote him the 89th letter, to me that was already a sign of willing to let go of her unresolved feelings for him. So why couldn’t she let go? Because Cloud is the trigger. Because ever since she met Cloud, whenever she looks at him, she admittedly sees Zack. And this wouldn’t happen if Aerith became interested in any other person— just with Cloud. She would’ve moved on normally, but Cloud appeared. That’s why her feelings are complicated because she knows it’s been 5 years but Cloud’s presence reignites her feelings; Cloud makes her feel how much she truly loved Zack, his presence by itself makes her miss Zack to the point of subconsciously recreating their memories together — but with Cloud instead.

She must be so conflicted and bothered, I imagine in her perspective it’s like “finally after 5 long years of pain and no response from that other guy here’s another chance at falling in love— but wait why is he so suspiciously similar with the first one?” And she likes Cloud, I’m of the opinion that she truly wanted to get to know him in a romantic way (that she was attracted to Cloud beyond seeing Zack in him) but I can admit the depth of those feelings for Cloud are arguably not as deep as those she felt for Zack. And her liking Cloud now does not do her any favors in regard to moving on from Zack because liking Cloud means liking the Zack parts that he’s currently emulating, which just reinforces her already established love— for Zack. And inevitably she doesn’t get to know the side of Cloud who’s the truest form of himself, and that’s part of her tragedy. But because Cloud is emulating Zack, Aerith must think does she like like Cloud— or only because of the Zack parts? For the players some have already decided on an answer, but it’s still currently muddled for Aerith.

It’s not as black and white as “oh she can’t love another man because she’s still in love with Zack”. Zack has been GONE and she understands that. Aerith is still alive and whether or not she knows Zack died, she was still left hanging, her love unrequited for YEARS. She wants to move on clearly proven by her actions but can’t have closure because Cloud’s memories are a mess + Cloud himself is a walking symbol of Zack. Cloud doesn’t get why Aerith’s feelings are complicated because he isn’t self-aware of his Soldier!persona. If Aerith were to open up to Tifa it would be something similar to “I thought I was over him (Zack), but Cloud acting like that makes me confused.” That’s how Tifa would understand that Aerith’s feelings are complicated.

for me, Cloud’s Soldier!persona can be divided into 3 parts,
  • his ideal version of himself who made it into Soldier,
  • the Zack parts,
  • and the Sephiroth parts(the cruel and violent part, the version of him who Sephiroth constantly manipulates).
The Sephiroth parts are what both Tifa and Aerith are trying to suppress. The “ideal version of himself” is the one Aerith is crushing on (regardless of the fact that Cloud as a whole favors Tifa over any other girl) ALONG with the Zack parts.

Yes this might be irrelevant on a larger view of the LTD, because most discussions center on who Cloud loves but it matters for Aerith’s character, because we can recognize and acknowledge her effort in wanting to get closure and wanting to moving on, she doesn’t have to think of Zack whenever she hangs out with Cloud, (but she can’t help it because of Cloud himself, and that’s the point) and she’s definitely not obligated to. To me it’s just inaccurate to say “oh she’s still so hung up on Zack” yes she struggles when dealing with grief but she’s also an optimistic character who lives for tomorrow; she knows it’s not healthy to still be fully in love with a person who’s been gone for 5 years. That’s why she’s sensitive when Cloud asks her if she still likes Zack in Gongaga, (those unanswered feelings for Zack are deeply personal to her) and that’s why she’s not sure in her wording when she answers him; because she’s not exactly proud of having feelings reminiscent of the past, reminiscent of the suffering she endured when she was missing Zack, which is natural.

But she knows (or realizes) that it’s also not healthy to completely love a person who will always inevitably remind you of that tragic love from long ago, the same one you want to move on from (especially if you have no knowledge of the real identity of this new person, no knowledge of the person she’s trying so hard to find). And what’s even the point of being fully committed to a new guy if the feelings you feel for him aren’t as deep as the one before? But to Aerith, what matters is that she tried loving this new guy, she gave him a chance because that’s what life is all about, she got to spend time with Cloud, go on “dates”with him and that’s enough. It’s a testament to her worldview— she wants to live normally; fall in love normally. But even when her freedom is constricted, even if she can’t have everything she wants, she makes do of what she has, makes do of what short time they have together and makes precious memories out of it, which she treasures regardless.

If you compare CA and ZA, Tifa’s existence as the woman revealed to be the one Cloud loves all this time, along with Cloud’s identity crisis are both the biggest hurdles of that ship coming to fruition, whereas for ZA the only thing that ever came between them was physical separation (and this is made clearer in Rebirth) and that’s why when ZA reunite, it’s going to be fulfilling on both ends.

(Sorry for the long rant, just needed to let it out)
Not sure if you addressed this but if you didn't --

What are your thoughts on the dream date and how did you interpret Aerith's line: liking VS liking?

Also, do you think the Zack references were intentional or meant anything? Or did you not notice them?
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
Zack's "portrayal" in FF7 is him literally chunks of Cloud from before the lifestream sequence and the scenes of the ShinRa escape and him giving his life to protect Cloud despite being in the home stretch to go see Aerith again.

How the fuck does any of that contradict Crisis Core?
Dude argued with me about retcons and how Zack is Canonically a womanizer because of OG and OG is it's own canon separate from Rebirth.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/s/c27LgRjgyC here's the thread if you want to smack your head into a wall
 

overheat28

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Overheat
Something I'd like to add, and sorry if you already mentioned it or implied it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but are we even sure Aerith would be into the real Cloud? I know it sounds disengenuous, but would she actually have fell in love with the real Cloud had she gotten the chance to get to know him?

It's never explored, I don't think.

But I would hesitate to automatically assume she would. Just smacks of main character syndrome to me. Maybe I'm biased, but not every girl has to automatically be in love with the MC, imo. It's good they gave Aerith an "out" so to speak (she sees Zack's mirage most of the time they're together). It keeps the relationships much cleaner at the end.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
In my opinion, asking these sorts of questions kind of takes away from what message we’re supposed to take from CA’s connection. To understand the canon portrayal of CA’s bond fully, I feel like one should have to abstain from seeing them in an exclusively romantic light, because the canon platonic CA bond coexists with CT, the intended romance arc for Cloud which has the romantic pay-off. For me whether or not Aerith can love real Cloud or not is irrelevant to both of their characters, not only because that concept is never touched upon or addressed in the narrative, but also because by the end of the story and by ACC they already have a deep spiritual bond that they built together, still profound regardless of the lack of mutual romantic feelings. Obviously you’re supposed to feel like “I wish she had met this version” because even if she’s not Tifa, the woman who Cloud will always love, Aerith is still a precious person who Cloud lost. Just like how Cloud (with the fake identity or not) eventually became a symbol of life and a symbol of the living for Aerith (a person she wants to protect), Aerith was a symbol of “Life” for Cloud too. How she treasured every moment in ways that was strange to him at first, how she valued the future and lived for tomorrow, she’ll always be someone he warmed up to, someone he became willing to comfort in her grief despite his aloof self, someone who recognized his weakness before he did and was caring for him when she said “focus on yourself”. Doesn’t matter if he’s fake or not, doesn’t matter if she’s dead or not, they’re comrades who support each other unconditionally. I believe that’s the pay-off of their arc.

Edit: added a phrase and a sentence for clarity
Yes, but I'm looking at this from an LTD perspective.

It's always kind of been an assumed standard that Aerith loved real Cloud when it comes to discussion, from Cleriths atleast.

For Clerith to be canon, both Cloud and Aerith have to love each other, simple right? But (correct me if I'm wrong) we can't even concretely say Aerith loved the real Cloud, so even if somebody could prove that Cloud possessed undying feelings of love for Aerith, would that even make Clerith canon if we can't prove it's entirely mutual from Aerith's side?

I know COLW exists, but that's from her perspective, no? If it's from her perspective, then it's an Aerith who never got to know the real Cloud.

No wonder Cleriths are so miserable, every argument they try to construct is an uphill battle right from the start.

But I would hesitate to automatically assume she would. Just smacks of main character syndrome to me. Maybe I'm biased, but not every girl has to automatically be in love with the MC, imo. It's good they gave Aerith an "out" so to speak (she sees Zack's mirage most of the time they're together). It keeps the relationships much cleaner at the end.
Yeah, I do think it's a bit of a regressive mindset to assume that everything between a man and a woman has to be romantic in nature.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
In short "Aerith is correct at all times, even when she is shown to be wrong, so it must be a retcon."
Like how hard is it to read in between the lines here. Aerith "Zack sure was charming must have lots of girls". The player seeing Zack is dedicated to Aerith. Cloud "you still like him then" Aerith "he's never given me a reason not to" weird you would think multiple girls would be a reason not too something isn't adding up here. Never seen Zack not been dedicated to Aerith very odd wonder if Aerith could possibly just be unable to accept his death seems to be a theme in the game. Wonder why Aerith is still looking for news
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Like how hard is it to read in between the lines here. Aerith "Zack sure was charming must have lots of girls". The player seeing Zack is dedicated to Aerith. Cloud "you still like him then" Aerith "he's never given me a reason not to" weird you would think multiple girls would be a reason not too something isn't adding up here. Never seen Zack not been dedicated to Aerith very odd wonder if Aerith could possibly just be unable to accept his death seems to be a theme in the game. Wonder why Aerith is still looking for news
I've always seen Aerith assuming Zack had lots of women to himself was a way to... I dont know.... give herself a reason not to be so upset over him?

Like if she was able to convince herself he wasn't a man worth her love it would make it easier to move on? I dunno.
 

A-to-Z

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Yes, but I'm looking at this from an LTD perspective.

It's always kind of been an assumed standard that Aerith loved real Cloud when it comes to discussion, from Cleriths atleast.

For Clerith to be canon, both Cloud and Aerith have to love each other, simple right? But (correct me if I'm wrong) we can't even concretely say Aerith loved the real Cloud, so even if somebody could prove that Cloud possessed undying feelings of love for Aerith, would that even make Clerith canon if we can't prove it's entirely mutual from Aerith's side?

I know COLW exists, but that's from her perspective, no? If it's from her perspective, then it's an Aerith who never got to know the real Cloud.

No wonder Cleriths are so miserable, every argument they try to construct is an uphill battle right from the start.
I agree with you, I also think that’s why most extremist and toxic CAs hate the concept of “real” Cloud even if the narrative makes that distinction important, because they want to deny that there exists a version of Cloud that only Tifa has exclusive access to, making claims such as Aerith knew the real cloud too and sometimes they also deny Cloud copied Zack at all (trivializing Zack as a character again) and believe all parts of Soldier!Cloud are entirely materialized by Cloud’s ideal version of himself. (Which, I would argue, is still an incomplete presentation of his real personality)
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
I've always seen Aerith assuming Zack had lots of women to himself was a way to... I dont know.... give herself a reason not to be so upset over him?

Like if she was able to convince herself he wasn't a man worth her love it would make it easier to move on? I dunno.
Yep it's really not that hard boyfriend is missing doesn't want to accept he's dead well he's a charmer he's probably forgotten about me and living his best life
 
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