SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Hellenic

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Hellenic
View attachment 16386

So we can assume promotional material is important and therefore accept this one :

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If you mix the two, every volcano on the planet wakes up, I'm told.
Look at that unimportant NPC standing besides Sephi and Aerith there. How could Square fumble this badly and accidentally put her in the other version of the game cover of all places. I request an immediate fix Square, we can't have it being this wrong.
 

abzy1200

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Both were enveloped in mako as they sank into the planet. Cloud’s second time; Tifa’s first experience.

Aerith bet everything on this one chance.

She eagerly turned her attention to Tifa, whose mind was being overwhelmed in the highly concentrated mako. Aerith guided her consciousness into Cloud’s closed mind.

In truth, she wanted to do it herself. However, Aerith could not play this role. Therefore, she entrusted it to Tifa. She entrusted Tifa with all the feelings she had for Cloud in her own heart. To the person who would “live” together with Cloud …

And Tifa succeeded. Comparing her memories with Cloud’s memories, she looked for those things only the real Cloud could know. This serving as proof, the closed door was opened. She released the memories that were firmly locked up in the bottom of his heart; he didn’t get to be a SOLDIER, but due to an ability from Jenova he had been imbued with, Cloud, an ordinary soldier, copied the traits of his best friend, Zack. She restored him to his natural personality rather than the fake one he had created to maintain his sense of self.

“You did it, Tifa. Thank you … I’m a bit jealous of you, but look after Cloud ― and the upper world too, please.”

Aerith watched as they returned to the surface with Tifa pulled up against Cloud, who was back to his senses. She smiled like an affectionate mother, though.
I can't believe Cleriths still think Maiden is a win for them, especially because this is in it.

Look at that unimportant NPC standing besides Sephi and Aerith there. How could Square fumble this badly and accidentally put her in the other version of the game cover of all places. I request an immediate fix Square, we can't have it being this wrong.
On the topic of Rebirths cover art, I brought it up with a Clerith who claimed this about it: "we all know that the Tifa and Aerith version was an afterthought"

it was some grade A cope, even after I think it was Nomura who gave importance to it, by saying it represents the different worlds, or something.

same guy who insisted Tifa opened an orphanage, lmao.
 

abzy1200

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Cute little detail but in one of the Ultimania it is stated that Cloud outfit in AC is designed with the idea of an apron when he's helping at the bar.
The ultimania's say a lot of things, but it doesn't really mean much to them.
 

Hellenic

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Hellenic
I can't believe Cleriths still think Maiden is a win for them, especially because this is in it.


On the topic of Rebirths cover art, I brought it up with a Clerith who claimed this about it: "we all know that the Tifa and Aerith version was an afterthought"

it was some grade A cope, even after I think it was Nomura who gave importance to it, by saying it represents the different worlds, or something.

same guy who insisted Tifa opened an orphanage, lmao.
What? The alternate cover that they bothered to make was just for shits and giggles? Why am i not surprised.
 

Yoru

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I can't believe Cleriths still think Maiden is a win for them, especially because this is in it.

I was so shocked when I read it the first time. It was borderline the most Cloti canon material we had for a while. And they're defending it with their live. It's so strange lmao.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
I was so shocked when I read it the first time. It was borderline the most Cloti canon material we had for a while. And they're defending it with their live. It's so strange lmao.
What do they think was meant when Benny Matsuyama (I think that's his name) placed special emphasis on the "live" by putting it in quotation marks, almost like it means something slightly different, hmm?
 

overheat28

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Overheat
Maiden is held dear because it murders Zack as a character irrespective of what it says about Cloti.

Even now, one of the major arguments CAs bring up against Zack is that he's a "womanizer". The Aerith scene in Rebirth with the Fairs in Gongaga is used to support this. Context? What's that? She herself realizes right after that she came across as insensitive, her coping mechanism got the better of her and she said things she shouldn't have. She doesn't seriously believe he's a womanizer, but it's better than him being dead. Maybe she was trying to give the Fairs hope as well.

CAs are willing to take the Cloti blow as long as Zack is nullified. It's hilarious and sad at the same time. If they just played CC instead of treating it like an anathema...
 

Sacky

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SackyBoy
Not me who said this btw
I say "attempts" regarding the retcon because it is an objectively bad retcon. It effectively creates two canons, as there is such a colossal disparity between the story elements (and specifically Zack's portrayal) in Crisis Core and FF7 that both versions of events simply can't be true. The only way you could do it would be, possibly, what the Remake trilogy is driving at - by saying they happened in parallel universes.

The cope is now reaching levels of it has to be a parallel universe to explain it. Or we could simply say Zack was not a womanizer and the writers
probably don't want to portray their hero character of Zack as one, Crisis core is the correct version and it was so vague in OG that the OG one doesn't matter But what do i know?
 

abzy1200

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The cope is now reaching levels of it has to be a parallel universe to explain it. Or we could simply say Zack was not a womanizer and the writers
probably don't want to portray their hero character of Zack as one, Crisis core is the correct version and it was so vague in OG that the OG one doesn't matter But what do i know?
I think Nojima even said he was surprised to see that people thought Zack and Cissnei had a thing going. Nojima obviously has it in his head that Zack is devoted to Aerith.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
I think Nojima even said he was surprised to see that people thought Zack and Cissnei had a thing going. Nojima obviously has it in his head that Zack is devoted to Aerith.
In an interview, there was a programmer during the FFVII OG days that thought Tifa and Aerith were rivals or were jealous of each other. I think Nojima was surprised by this which is why he put more focus on Tifa and Aerith's friendship in the Remake project. (correct me if I'm wrong).

I believe there was a guidebook or manual that mentioned Aerith as Tifa's love rival. (Not sure if it was exclusive to NA or if it was included in the JP version as well). So I am not sure if that is considered canon to the FFVII lore.
 
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imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
The cope is now reaching levels of it has to be a parallel universe to explain it. Or we could simply say Zack was not a womanizer and the writers
probably don't want to portray their hero character of Zack as one, Crisis core is the correct version and it was so vague in OG that the OG one doesn't matter But what do i know?
Some people are convinced that CC is not canon because in an interview, Naoki Hamaguchi (Rebirth Director) that said CC is not canon to the Remake/Rebirth universe. I think what he said was either mistranslated or misinterpreted due to context.
 
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pxl_pushr

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Pixel
Some people are convinced that CC is not canon because in an interview Naoki Hamaguchi (Rebirth Director) that said CC is not canon to the Remake/Rebirth universe. I think what he said was either mistranslated or misinterpreted due to context.
I always take any dev weirdness about CC as them wanting as much room to eat around the Genesis question as much as they can. I highly doubt they’ll ever allow him to appear on screen, but they’ve already alluded to him in Remake about as much as I’d expect.
 

imach0c0

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I always take any dev weirdness about CC as them wanting as much room to eat around the Genesis question as much as they can. I highly doubt they’ll ever allow him to appear on screen, but they’ve already alluded to him in Remake about as much as I’d expect.
In the opening shot of Rebirth, there is a banora apple poster on one of the broken Midgar signs. Also, Loveless G-Edition. These could simply be Genesis Easter eggs. But you never know.
 

Sacky

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SackyBoy
I always take any dev weirdness about CC as them wanting as much room to eat around the Genesis question as much as they can. I highly doubt they’ll ever allow him to appear on screen, but they’ve already alluded to him in Remake about as much as I’d expect.
Free my boy he deserves to be released
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
I believe there was a guidebook or manual that mentioned Aerith as Tifa's love rival. (Not sure if it was exclusive to NA or if it was included in the JP version as well). So I am not sure if that is considered canon to the FFVII lore
Yes there is, but I'm pretty sure manuals like that would also claim that Cloud is an 'Ex-SOLDIER' even though he's not and never was, and they aren't going to completely spoil story developments that recontextualise everything in something that's only supposed to give you a briefing on what you should expect.

In an interview, there was a programmer during the FFVII OG days that thought Tifa and Aerith were rivals or were jealous of each other. I think Nojima was surprised by this which is why he put more focus on Tifa and Aerith's friendship in the Remake project. (correct me if I'm wrong).
Can't really blame them, the scene in the holding cells in Shinra HQ can very easily give off that vibe. Accompanied by a passage from I think Tifa's profile in the Crisis Core ultimania? anyway, it basically says "as a woman, Tifa holds complex feelings towards Aerith."

and again, that excerpt from Maiden that straight up has Aerith say she's jealous of Tifa.

I'm glad Nojima is somewhat rectifying that issue, even if their friendship sort of feels like a womens' friendship written by a man.

EDIT: just clarifying that I don't actually think Tifa and Aerith were jealous of each other in ff7, I'm just saying it's easy to get the wrong impression based off scenes early in the game.
 
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Hellenic

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Hellenic
It's similar to how I feel about FFX and FFX-2. Do I like FFX-2 from a plot POV? No. But am I happy that TiYu reunited in the perfect ending? Yes. Does it make sense? No. Do I care? Also no. Because at the end of the day, I'm just a selfish fan who wanted them to reunite and they did lol
I personally don't like that they brought Tidus back, couse it felt like it took away from the ending of 10 for me a lot, which i think is one of the strongest FF endings in general, so i'm a little soured about it.

Overall though, i can always pretend the perfect ending doesn't exist in 10-2, so it doesn't bother me whenever i replay 10-2 and such. Not like i play that game for story anyway.
 

Hellenic

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Hellenic
I know Aerith gets brutally murdered but somehow I never think of her having a bad ending lol. I think because in AC she seems so ethereal and is with Zack.
It's a happy ending in her own terms in the Lifestream with Zack. Not every happy ending to me needs to be in the world of the living.
 

A-to-Z

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Maybe it’s just me but I assumed Cloud brought up ZA in the CT GS date because in his head ZA share mutual feelings. It fitted the romantic atmosphere, that’s why he considers it a touchy subject because it’s the romantic situation of his and Tifa’s mutual friend, its a touchy subject to Aerti because it alludes to his identity crisis, but for Cloud the topic of ZA is about feelings of mutual love with no closure as of yet (which was relevant to CT’s current situation), and when he said “Aerith must still have feelings for Zack” it’s because Cloud still has feelings for Tifa and wanted to tread on the topic of people still having feelings for someone they knew for a long time. (I thought this was his way of gauging Tifa’s thoughts on the topic of first love; since iirc he overheard them talking about it back in Junon too, right?)

Also I love Zerith, it’s my otp, but in my opinion the biggest reason why Aerith can’t exactly move on from Zack is because Cloud has a persona based on Zack traits. Zack has been gone for 5 years, and after Aerith wrote him the 89th letter, to me that was already a sign of willing to let go of her unresolved feelings for him. So why couldn’t she let go? Because Cloud is the trigger. Because ever since she met Cloud, whenever she looks at him, she admittedly sees Zack. And this wouldn’t happen if Aerith became interested in any other person— just with Cloud. She would’ve moved on normally, but Cloud appeared. That’s why her feelings are complicated because she knows it’s been 5 years but Cloud’s presence reignites her feelings; Cloud makes her feel how much she truly loved Zack, his presence by itself makes her miss Zack to the point of subconsciously recreating their memories together — but with Cloud instead.

She must be so conflicted and bothered, I imagine in her perspective it’s like “finally after 5 long years of pain and no response from that other guy here’s another chance at falling in love— but wait why is he so suspiciously similar with the first one?” And she likes Cloud, I’m of the opinion that she truly wanted to get to know him in a romantic way (that she was attracted to Cloud beyond seeing Zack in him) but I can admit the depth of those feelings for Cloud are arguably not as deep as those she felt for Zack. And her liking Cloud now does not do her any favors in regard to moving on from Zack because liking Cloud means liking the Zack parts that he’s currently emulating, which just reinforces her already established love— for Zack. And inevitably she doesn’t get to know the side of Cloud who’s the truest form of himself, and that’s part of her tragedy. But because Cloud is emulating Zack, Aerith must think does she like like Cloud— or only because of the Zack parts? For the players some have already decided on an answer, but it’s still currently muddled for Aerith.

It’s not as black and white as “oh she can’t love another man because she’s still in love with Zack”. Zack has been GONE and she understands that. Aerith is still alive and whether or not she knows Zack died, she was still left hanging, her love unrequited for YEARS. She wants to move on clearly proven by her actions but can’t have closure because Cloud’s memories are a mess + Cloud himself is a walking symbol of Zack. Cloud doesn’t get why Aerith’s feelings are complicated because he isn’t self-aware of his Soldier!persona. If Aerith were to open up to Tifa it would be something similar to “I thought I was over him (Zack), but Cloud acting like that makes me confused.” That’s how Tifa would understand that Aerith’s feelings are complicated.

for me, Cloud’s Soldier!persona can be divided into 3 parts,
  • his ideal version of himself who made it into Soldier,
  • the Zack parts,
  • and the Sephiroth parts(the cruel and violent part, the version of him who Sephiroth constantly manipulates).
The Sephiroth parts are what both Tifa and Aerith are trying to suppress. The “ideal version of himself” is the one Aerith is crushing on (regardless of the fact that Cloud as a whole favors Tifa over any other girl) ALONG with the Zack parts.

Yes this might be irrelevant on a larger view of the LTD, because most discussions center on who Cloud loves but it matters for Aerith’s character, because we can recognize and acknowledge her effort in wanting to get closure and wanting to moving on, she doesn’t have to think of Zack whenever she hangs out with Cloud, (but she can’t help it because of Cloud himself, and that’s the point) and she’s definitely not obligated to. To me it’s just inaccurate to say “oh she’s still so hung up on Zack” yes she struggles when dealing with grief but she’s also an optimistic character who lives for tomorrow; she knows it’s not healthy to still be fully in love with a person who’s been gone for 5 years. That’s why she’s sensitive when Cloud asks her if she still likes Zack in Gongaga, (those unanswered feelings for Zack are deeply personal to her) and that’s why she’s not sure in her wording when she answers him; because she’s not exactly proud of having feelings reminiscent of the past, reminiscent of the suffering she endured when she was missing Zack, which is natural.

But she knows (or realizes) that it’s also not healthy to completely love a person who will always inevitably remind you of that tragic love from long ago, the same one you want to move on from (especially if you have no knowledge of the real identity of this new person, no knowledge of the person she’s trying so hard to find). And what’s even the point of being fully committed to a new guy if the feelings you feel for him aren’t as deep as the one before? But to Aerith, what matters is that she tried loving this new guy, she gave him a chance because that’s what life is all about, she got to spend time with Cloud, go on “dates”with him and that’s enough. It’s a testament to her worldview— she wants to live normally; fall in love normally. But even when her freedom is constricted, even if she can’t have everything she wants, she makes do of what she has, makes do of what short time they have together and makes precious memories out of it, which she treasures regardless.

If you compare CA and ZA, Tifa’s existence as the woman revealed to be the one Cloud loves all this time, along with Cloud’s identity crisis are both the biggest hurdles of that ship coming to fruition, whereas for ZA the only thing that ever came between them was physical separation (and this is made clearer in Rebirth) and that’s why when ZA reunite, it’s going to be fulfilling on both ends.

(Sorry for the long rant, just needed to let it out)
 
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