SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
To me, it felt like they super-concentrated all the Cloud x Aerith shipping moments into Chapters 8-9.
It's funny 'cause entire chapter 8 is under Zack shadow from the fell to the church 'til playground from Aerith's POV.
and entire chapter 9 is under a Tifa's shadow 'cause it's a mission to rescue her from Cloud's POV.

But of course, I still call it their moment. But we don't really get one pure CxA moment that it's really about 'em except the first meeting and the dream.
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
The entire storm the Shinra building to get Aerith back is a CxA moment , one big huge entire thing, as the Wall Market mission is CxT although it doesn't undermine any other CxA or CxT things within those chapters, it still applies.

I don't consider the Corneo mission a Cloti moment, nor do I consider the Shinra mission a Clerith moment.

Eeeeh. I don't consider either of those situations to be C x A or C x T things.

To be shipping material, it has to involve a moment between the two.

Agreed. Cloud cares about people, but that doesn't necessarily make it romantic. When Cloud saved Barret(twice) while making the climb up to Shinra tower, was that romantic?
 
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Cat on Mars

Actually not a cat
Cloud cares about people, but that doesn't necessarily make it romantic. When Cloud saved Barret(twice) while making the climb up to Shinra tower, was that romantic?
Of course it was romantic! Too bad that as soon as Red entered the picture Barret was only interested in the talking dog and the feeling was mutual, as their bickering clearly demonstrates.
Poor Cloud. :(
 

a_apple

Pro Adventurer
AKA
orange
It's funny 'cause entire chapter 8 is under Zack shadow from the fell to the church 'til playground from Aerith's POV.
and entire chapter 9 is under a Tifa's shadow 'cause it's a mission to rescue her from Cloud's POV.

But of course, I still call it their moment. But we don't really get one pure CxA moment that it's really about 'em except the first meeting and the dream.
The high five was definitely a genuine moment between them.
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
Of course it was romantic! Too bad that as soon as Red entered the picture Barret was only interested in the talking dog and the feeling was mutual, as their bickering clearly demonstrates.
Poor Cloud. :(

OTP!

Ok then but that also makes all the CxT moments on the way to Shinra tower, etc non romantic/not shippy :pinkmonster:

Not necessarily. That actually involved them in the same room interacting with eachother. Not to mention, as others have pointed out elsewhere, Cloud and Tifa have a very non-verbal chemistry.

That said, I also view some moments Cloud and Aerith had during the mission to save Tifa as shippy, even though the goal was to save Tifa.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
It's a complicated thing in the fandom to talk about. I think the two big interpretations are:

1) Cloud is feeling Zack's feelings which is why Aerith calls them not real because they come from someone else.

or

2) Because Cloud is not Cloud but some messed up conflict of personalities, those feelings are then invalid (to Aerith anyway) because they don't come from his true self. They stem from the fake persona that was created and so they don't originate from the real Cloud.

I go more with the latter than the former.

That would invalidate all his interactions with/feelings for Biggs, Jessie, Wedge, Barret, Red XIII, Cid, Yuffie, Vincent, and Cait Sith, as well as call into question all of them involving Tifa from the time they reunited.

We know the original Cloud is in that composite of identity soup. Were it otherwise, pretty much the biggest part of the story would be emotionally bankrupt.
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
That would invalidate all his interactions with/feelings for Biggs, Jessie, Wedge, Barret, Red XIII, Cid, Yuffie, Vincent, and Cait Sith, as well as call into question all of them involving Tifa from the time they reunited.

We know the original Cloud is in that composite of identity soup. Were it otherwise, pretty much the biggest part of the story would be emotionally bankrupt.

But the real Cloud isn't in the driver's seat. The OG ff7 did a good job of illustrating this by adding this mysterious voice in your head, which later turned out to be the real Cloud speaking to you. The closest this game came to showing that was right after Cloud fell and before the church scene.

I think people assume Cloud has one cohesive, though made up, persona. However, that's just not true according to the original.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Cloud is in the driver's seat...

...Of a car that isn't his own, on a road that leads to parts unknown, all while following a GPS system that is actually malware/surveillance-ware that is intended to steer him into driving off a cliff.

That's the appropriate metaphor for Cloud right now. He is Cloud but he actually doesn't know who Cloud is or have a grasp of his proper memories and thoughts. He has agency, but it's warped and based off a false personality composite and false, fragmented memories coming from another person, and inserted recollections. He doesn't realise he was knocked out, put into smother car's drivers seat and made to leave his original car behind.
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
He's also not just locked in the trunk.

The original does imply that.

Cloud is in the driver's seat...

...Of a car that isn't his own, on a road that leads to parts unknown, all while following a GPS system that is actually malware/surveillance-ware that is intended to steer him into driving off a cliff.

That's the appropriate metaphor for Cloud right now. He is Cloud but he actually doesn't know who Cloud is or have a grasp of his proper memories and thoughts.

It's a Ship of Theseus type of dilemma.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
I was more referring to stuffs like what happened on the way up and on top of Sector 7 pillar, in Train Graveyard, while getting up to the Shinra building (like when Cloud saves Barret he goes to grab Tifa first "Cloud!" *Cloud beelines for Tifa* "Grab on", and then the second time he's carrying her and then he helps her up after, which is like when Cloud takes Aerith's wrist to help her up in Don Corneo's dungeon, etc.) I've even seen people argue roll doesn't count either with similar points because who wouldn't help a friend who was having difficulty, was in distress, and could be injured if you didn't cushion their fall :pinkmonster:

I mean fair enough if it doesn't count now/even to some here, it's just I thought the whole premise of it was Wall Market counted because Cloud promised Tifa to come help her if she was ever in a bind and stuffs like Shinra Tower because of the bodyguard deal, and also because people say CxT get plenty of skin touch, physical contact, etc (which can also be argued for CxA as well), and I agree it could even be argued as ample, generous, maybe even gratuitous at times, depending, but now I'm kind of confused because it appears we're arguing things weren't as overbloated with some things as it seems it first appeared or something :monsterstoned:

**

"Hang back, we're in no hurry" is the real Cloud in the church right?
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Contrary to Sephiroth's vociferous statements on the subject, Cloud is actually not a puppet. :monster:

Cloud is working under a false personality and memories but he's not unaware or simply unconscious inside himself. He truly believes who he says he is. His mind is aware and functioning.

It's just functioning on wrong information and memories. Zack's influence on Cloud is his genuine belief he's a SOLDIER 1C, a mercenary, the recollection of the Nibelheim Incident and other memories imprinted, that's integrated into his mind.

Cloud's own memories however still exist. They've been incorporated into this composite hollow shell of a personality. He remembers Tifa, his Mom, his Mom's death, the painful trauma, and other fragments. He's also missing a lot of himself too. But "Cloud" still exists. The conscious hollow Cloud is simply trying to get by the best it can while his repressed memories and original true self, keeps trying to reconcile and bring awareness to things that don't make sense.

But we know something is trying to prevent that.
 

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
I think the biggest "shippy" Cloud/Tifa moment for me is when Tifa saves Cloud post-Rufus fight on top of Shinra Tower. That's prime CT content right there: role-reversal with Tifa wanting to be saved by a hero but saving the hero instead, a direct callback to their promise (not to mention the Lifestream sequence); Tifa teasing Cloud to do better; Cloud smirking, recognizing that, and then accepting her help. Not to mention that Tifa's Theme plays over it, which makes it a more intimate moment even though they're on the verge of falling off a building.

The closest this game came to showing that was right after Cloud fell and before the church scene.

I wanted to say they did the real!Cloud's voiceover and existence really well. Was curious to see how they'd do the black voiceover screens but they've incorporated them well so far. Also no more confusion about who that voice was — I remember some people believing it was Zack, and I never really understood how that misinterpretation came about.

Re: Cloud's identity — I think it's a bit disingenuous to write off Cloud as not having agency during the time he knows Aerith. Obviously he's extremely fucked in the head, but his feelings and memories during the whole FF7 journey up until the Lifestream are still his own — he doesn't just forget it all after he regains his true self. He forms real bonds and friendships during that time, including with Aerith and everyone else.

On the other hand, I also think it's disingenuous to write off the physicality between Cloud and Tifa as "gratuitous" or fan service. If it didn't directly tie into the theme of their relationship, then I'd be more inclined to consider that view, but as "Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel," is the core of their bond, I think any other interpretation willfully ignores that fact. (Also because the devs painstakingly decided to add all those moments in, motion capture them, render them, etc. They're there for a reason, and they're very hard to miss.)
 
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MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
Re: Cloud's identity — I think it's a bit disingenuous to write off Cloud as not having agency during the time he knows Aerith. Obviously he's extremely fucked in the head, but his feelings and memories during the whole FF7 journey up until the Lifestream are still his own — he doesn't just forget it all after he regains his true self. He forms real bonds and friendships during that time, including with Aerith and everyone else.

But what did Aerith mean when she said "it was just his imagination"?

On to another topic that has been bothering me: why didn't Cloud jump at the chance to help Tifa when he spotted her entering Sector 6 from Sector 7 in a Chocobo carriage? Who in Sector 7 could possibly be more important to Cloud than Tifa?

It legitimately made no sense how he was willing to allow her to take that risk alone.
 

Purple

Charmed
On to another topic that has been bothering me: why didn't Cloud jump at the chance to help Tifa when he spotted her entering Sector 6 from Sector 7 in a Chocobo carriage? Who in Sector 7 could possibly be more important to Cloud than Tifa?
He wanted to help her. When Tifa told him to regroup with the others at 7th Heaven, he was hesitant at first hence the emphatic “But—“ then Tifa cuts him off and said she’ll be fine because he’s seen how much ass she can kick. Then he reluctantly agrees, tells Aerith she’s a big girl and can handle the likes of Corneo and worse. Only when Aerith said Corneo was much more dangerous than he seems did he decide to rescue her. To be fair tho, Cloud doesn’t really know anything about the Slums politics, he could’ve thought Corneo wasn’t really that dangerous.
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
In the Jp version, he actually says to Aerith that Tifa is stronger than all the dudes in that area. This guy are NAIVE af :/

Not sure why they added in the "she's a big girl" part. What does that even mean?
 

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
Agree with @Purple and @ForceStealer on the Corneo thing. If anything I think it’s a positive moment — Cloud looks very dejected when Tifa tells him not to help, but reluctantly goes along with it because he trusts her abilities and respects her enough to believe her words. He’s seen her fight and hold her own, and there’s no reason for him to believe that she can’t be independent, considering she’s lived in Midgar for five years already.

To Cloud’s credit, he’s actually right — Tifa could kick the asses of every single Corneo lackey there.
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
Wait a sec, didn't he beat up some of Corneo's henchmen in Ch.3? The ones looking for a man with a gun on his arm? They were pretty weak. Tifa could kick their asses. So he's not that naive after all.

@Maidenofwar I agree with everything you said about Cloud's feelings and memories still being real. His bond with Aerith isn't made up. Just like his bond for Avalanche is real. And honestly there were plenty of shippy moments for CxA peppered throughout ch8-9 imho
 
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Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
In the Jp version, he actually says to Aerith that Tifa is stronger than all the dudes in that area. This guy are NAIVE af :/

Can I just say how I love that Cloud is aware and acknowledging of Tifa's strength? During their Don Corneo raid when Tifa and Aerith brought Cloud his change of clothes, it was shown that Tifa can carry his buster sword--- IN ONE HAND! Cloud knows not to piss off Tifa else he'd walk around with a broken nose and bruised face.

A part of CloTi that endears me is that Cloud trusts Tifa's capabilities completely and even allows himself to be saved by her from time to time. He relies on her not only for physical support, but also for his emotional support, so much so that (OG moment incoming) when he was losing his sense of self after hearing Sephiroth's taunts, he immediately sought Tifa for support and assurances for his existence, and only when Tifa was not able to give it to him did he finally succumb to Sephiroth's control.

Now I'm not saying Cloud should be totally dependent on her. I want for Cloud to eventually grow out of his dependence on Tifa, but I understand that by that moment he had nothing else to rely on. I'm just saying I love that Cloud can wholly put his trust and faith in her to profound levels, and acknowledges that Tifa can take care of herself just fine and does not need his help all the time.

Not sure why they added in the "she's a big girl" part. What does that even mean?

Well, she is a big girl. A girl with a big heart, I mean.
 
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