SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GamerSkull]

Thanks, I didn’t have the context since I don’t have twitter right now xD

Also for reference, Peko who is Japanese born, told me she’d would never use “Ai” to her mum she loves. “Ai” is so serious I was shocked when I saw that Cloud used it in JP for the Gongaga scene.

I think people would argue it’s a general statement and not directed at Tifa (even though it is).

 

[nars305]

Do you think Nojima sees all the horrible takes by Cult Clerith and opens his notepad every time to write down every sentence in order to destroy them one by one through in-game dialogue or a future novel?

Personally, it's my biggest FF7 headcanon.

This is my delusion.

Basically it’s what Traces is though.

 

[abzy1200]

No, the one i'm thinking of is when they're climbing up the Corel mountain and Elena sends a mech for them to fight. Aerith asks which way Midgar is, Nanaki shows her, and then Aerith wonders how her mom is doing and worries that Elmyra hates her for leaving w/o a word. Cloud says she just needs to talk to Elmyra once they go back to Midgar and Aerith is like, "Yeah.... Really looking forward to that conversation." And that's pretty much the end of the interaction but I'm just happy the convo was actually Aerith-centric.

Isn't there also some Zerith overlap there though? Isn't that also when it cuts to Zack's interlude with him looking back at the sky (with withered flower petals in the wind), essentially mirroring what Aerith is doing? It feels very soul-matey, especially with other moments where Aerith senses Zack (Cosmo Canyon).

Do you think Nojima sees all the horrible takes by Cult Clerith and opens his notepad every time to write down every sentence in order to destroy them one by one through in-game dialogue or a future novel?

Well, Nojima did recently like a tweet that said Tifa was a devoted, great wife, or something along those lines.

 

[Eerie]

Do you think Nojima sees all the horrible takes by Cult Clerith and opens his notepad every time to write down every sentence in order to destroy them one by one through in-game dialogue or a future novel?

Personally, it's my biggest FF7 headcanon.

Seeing ToTP destroying 20+ tears of bad Tifa takes and Remake + Rebirth? He’s 100% keeping notes lol. Don’t forget he said he wrote ZA to protect Aerith from bad takes, so I am sure he does the same with Tifa.

 

[imach0c0]

Also, if you're trying to romance Aerith the best answer is to have him agree that he used to go up there to be noticed by Tifa, soooo...

It is interesting that the CA watertower moment is really more of a CT moment, similar to when they climb the clocktower in Kalm or have that talk in Junon about the flower. I'm not entirely sure why the devs framed their interactions like that in Rebirth. I mean, I do know why, but at the same time I think it's kinda sad that there's so few moments that are just about Cloud and Aerith.

The scene before they fight the Turks in Corel is nice but I don't really consider it a CA moment since Nanaki was also apart of it, but at least it wasn't a conversation about Tifa. I'm still sad that there's no promise to take Aerith on the Highwind and that the whole convo about it was given to CT. Which, like, again, I understand why (foreshadowing) but it's just like ... Damn lmao. A lot of the iconic CA moments were taken away.

Though Aerith was wondering about her mom, the Corel scene seemed to also have a ZA undertone to it. In the scene prior, its in Zack's world and as he looks to the broken sky, wilted yellow flower petals are carried away in the breeze. Then it cuts to Aerith looking at a "fair" sky. The fair sky is often associated to Zack whereas yellow flower petals (or reunion flower) are associated to Aerith.

Regarding CA scenes, there aren't really moments that show them bonding in the main story like it did in Remake.

 

[GamerSkull]

Though Aerith was wondering about her mom, the Corel scene seemed to also have a ZA undertone to it. In the scene prior, its in Zack's world and as he looks to the broken sky, wilted flower petals are carried away in the breeze. Then it cuts to Aerith looking at a "fair" sky. The fair sky is often associated to Zack whereas flower petals are associated to Aerith.

Regarding CA scenes, there aren't really moments that show them bonding in the main story like in Remake.

Interesting. I never noticed that. Wonder if it was intentional.

 

[abzy1200]

Interesting. I never noticed that. Wonder if it was intentional.

Judging by Rebirth's cover art, it absolutely has to be.

 

[imach0c0]

Interesting. I never noticed that. Wonder if it was intentional.

I am not sure if its intentional but it seems visual storytelling (show not tell) is often associated with Zack and Aerith's story in Remake/Rebirth.

Something I noticed recently. Aerith clasps her hands after she seems to "feel" Zack's hand in the LS (during the GI scene). She does a similar hand clasp position during the NPTK performance when she sings: "Take my hand and believe we can be together evermore"
Zack "took" Aerith's hand during the interlude scene that cuts to that LS moment.

 

[Sacky]

Do you think Nojima sees all the horrible takes by Cult Clerith and opens his notepad every time to write down every sentence in order to destroy them one by one through in-game dialogue or a future novel?

Personally, it's my biggest FF7 headcanon.

It was quite crazy seeing even the more obscure toxic takes like Johnny getting completely destroyed and made clear with dialogue. The high five zoom in is another Sus one that happens on all dates

 

[GamerSkull]

It was quite crazy seeing even the more obscure toxic takes like Johnny getting completely destroyed and made clear with dialogue. The high five zoom in is another Sus one that happens on all dates

Nojima (taking notes): “Interlocked… hands. Got it. Next time, baby.”

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

You're welcome. I take both the credit and the blame.


Minor point of clarfication because all of that is correct to the best of my knowledge, except that her full name being "Tifaret" or "Tiferet" is technically a supposition, specifically my own. The notes we have from that era just say "Tifa." I was the one who made the logical leap and 'named' the proto Tifa and Aerith Tifaret to match Sephiroth and Tiferet and to help disambiguate between her and the two characters she would become.

That's really interesting that you came up with it. Though and it could be like the Mandela Effect or something the thing is I have a very vivid memory of a page where it says the Cetra's name was Tifaret and apparently other characters like Gevurah existed. I don't know what it was maybe my mind made it up but it's etched in my mind and I can't figure out if it's a real memory or not so I can't even prove it. But it's just always been my belief the the two sibling characters were Sephiroth and Tifaret. It also just always made sense to me. I do however know about the draft with Tifa, Blow and proto Cloud and Vincentroth so whatever I saw if it's real at all is probably way earlier.

To me it also just made sense for the "Eret" part to become Aerith. Though there is a book that talks about how they wanted Aerith's name to sound like Earth and constrast Cloud. So I'm not sure about their actual thought process.

As a kid I also remember I had some guide describing Tifa as "Nomura's favorite daughter" and talking about he had pictures of her on his desk or something and the staff would joke about it or something. I also can't remember where that's from either.

But I find the draft versions of FFVII fascinating.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Also for reference, Peko who is Japanese born, told me she’d would never use “Ai” to her mum she loves. “Ai” is so serious I was shocked when I saw that Cloud used it in JP for the Gongaga scene.

I've always been curious, what would the Japanese say to their family to express love? The ones I know are suki, daisuki, ai, and koi, I think. And I'm pretty sure koi is exclusively romantic/sexual love, right?

 

[Ryushikaze]

That's really interesting that you came up with it. Though and it could be like the Mandela Effect or something the thing is I have a very vivid memory of a page where it says the Cetra's name was Tifaret and apparently other characters like Gevurah existed. I don't know what it was maybe my mind made it up but it's etched in my mind and I can't figure out if it's a real memory or not so I can't even prove it. But it's just always been my belief the the two sibling characters were Sephiroth and Tifaret. It also just always made sense to me. I do however know about the draft with Tifa, Blow and proto Cloud and Vincentroth so whatever I saw if it's real at all is probably way earlier.

To me it also just made sense for the "Eret" part to become Aerith. Though there is a book that talks about how they wanted Aerith's name to sound like Earth and constrast Cloud. So I'm not sure about their actual thought process.

As a kid I also remember I had some guide describing Tifa as "Nomura's favorite daughter" and talking about he had pictures of her on his desk or something and the staff would joke about it or something. I also can't remember where that's from either.

But I find the draft versions of FFVII fascinating.

Yeah, it makes perfect sense for when Sephiroth was Tifa's brother that her full name would be Tifaret, I just can't find evidence of that being the case. If you ever find evidence of that, please let me know. It would help fill in some of the gaps we have in between NYC Joe and Jenova being a state of mind (the proto Parasite Eve drafts) and the Vinceroth and Tifa are siblings era. From there it seems fairly obvious that it then goes Current design Sephiroth and One earring Aerith design era, and then they split the characters and after that their character arcs were mostly solidified.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I've always been curious, what would the Japanese say to their family to express love? The ones I know are suki, daisuki, ai, and koi, I think. And I'm pretty sure koi is exclusively romantic/sexual love, right?

It depends on who is talking, primarily. A child would probably just use suki or daisuki, parents might use Ai towards their kids, and the parents could use koi, ai, or renai (both the kanji for koi and ai together. It's a bit more complicated outside the immediate family, as you often don't talk about things in those terms for social reasons, but you'd probably talk of respecting or enjoying them? You could maybe get by with declaring suki for extended family as an adult.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It depends on who is talking, primarily. A child would probably just use suki or daisuki, parents might use Ai towards their kids, and the parents could use koi, ai, or renai (both the kanji for koi and ai together. It's a bit more complicated outside the immediate family, as you often don't talk about things in those terms for social reasons, but you'd probably talk of respecting or enjoying them? You could maybe get by with declaring suki for extended family as an adult.

Okay. Thank you for the answer!

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Mmmm. About ai. I would just be careful comparing koi and ai at all. There is several instances where ai is used to describe for instance how the party feels about Aerith in the Advent Children materials as well as Terra uses this to describe Cloud's "ai" towards Aerith being turned into hate in World Of Final Fantasy.

Cloud: 俺の大切な人を 奪ったんだ
Terra: 誰かを大切に想う心…..愛するということを憎しみに 変えて
今の仲間を見捨てるなんておかるなんておかしいよ

So like I can see the argument but there is definitely a delineation between friend "ai" family "ai" and husband wife love "ai" that I do feel gets lost when we discuss these things.

If we go oh then ai in Gongaga is romantic because "ai" is so powerful more than koi or whatever then the instances where ai is used to describe others feelings for Aerith and that spin off even if it's a spin off become fair game and part of the conversation too.


I don't understand exactly what they're trying to argue on Twitter with that but basically I just wouldn't open that can of worms anyway because yeah Jenova can become those we love and fear that's obvious lore and I don't think it's necessary to prove CT anyway.

Koi is also explicitly romantic and kinda lustful but less serious by default and ai is not by default romantic but extremely serious by default. Ai is based on context while using koi tells you the context is romantic. Koi eventually can turn to renai and renai to ai as well. Aishiteru yes is very serious love.
But I'm not actually sure if we're going to hear it in this game since it is so serious. Even with Zack and Aerith she uses suki, Tifa's feelings in Traces are suki, Cloud and Tifa's feelings are "omoi" which can also be "romantic feelings" still translated as love And the other romantic instances have been described as koibito taisetsuna onna etc.

Edit WOFF not Opera Omnia

 

[GamerSkull]

I still can’t believe we have to analyze specific wordage when it comes to this debate.

Did other big shipping wars like with Naruto and Bleach have similar conversations?

 

[abzy1200]

Did other big shipping wars like with Naruto and Bleach have similar conversations?

Yes, I'm pretty sure this sort of thing happened with Sasuke and Karin.

If you look up "sumanakatta" one of the first results is a tumblr post about Sasuke and Karin regarding the word.

I'm also pretty sure there's still war over Ichiruki and Ichihime, despite overwhelming evidence in favour of one of them.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yes, I'm pretty sure this sort of thing happened with Sasuke and Karin.

If you look up "sumanakatta" one of the first results is a tumblr post about Sasuke and Karin regarding the word.

I'm also pretty sure there's still war over Ichiruki and Ichihime, despite overwhelming evidence in favour of one of them.

I’ve never considered Karin and Sasuke at all. Interesting.

But gosh, shipping wars are unreal. This LTD is my first taste of it. Wish I could turn back time to six months ago.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Yes, I'm pretty sure this sort of thing happened with Sasuke and Karin.

If you look up "sumanakatta" one of the first results is a tumblr post about Sasuke and Karin regarding the word.

I'm also pretty sure there's still war over Ichiruki and Ichihime, despite overwhelming evidence in favour of one of them.

Yeah I was an NaruSaku and SasuKarin shipper and I realized SasuSaku was canon and ship that too now and that was my blog analyzing Naruto canon and fanon before these FF7 Remake shenanigans. Fun.
. But I also wrote about how Cloud uses sumanakatta when apologizing to Tifa in Advent Children and yeah this is exactly why we shouldn't get into semantics arguments because Sasuke's sumanakatta is from a boss to his subordinate and it shows he values Karin but it's not romantic.

While Cloud sounds like he is apologizing to a girlfriend because Tifa is not his subordinate.

We basically can't just say oh look they used this word it's proof because there is just so much nuanced involved.

 

[nars305]

Shipping in Naruto is so strange to me because while Hinata clearly liked Naruto and Sakura clearly liked Sasuke (all the girls did) romance was sooooooo insignificant to the story as far as I remember. I read the manga as it was ongoing so maybe I forgot. But the romance angle was never huge from what I remember.

 

[GamerSkull]

Shipping in Naruto is so strange to me because while Hinata clearly liked Naruto and Sakura clearly liked Sasuke (all the girls did) romance was sooooooo insignificant to the story as far as I remember. I read the manga as it was ongoing so maybe I forgot. But the romance angle was never huge from what I remember.

It’s actually interesting. From observation, it seems shipping is more intense in stories where romance is not the forefront. I wonder why that is…

Although I suppose Nisekoi got pretty intense so what do I know.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Yeah, it makes perfect sense for when Sephiroth was Tifa's brother that her full name would be Tifaret, I just can't find evidence of that being the case. If you ever find evidence of that, please let me know. It would help fill in some of the gaps we have in between NYC Joe and Jenova being a state of mind (the proto Parasite Eve drafts) and the Vinceroth and Tifa are siblings era. From there it seems fairly obvious that it then goes Current design Sephiroth and One earring Aerith design era, and then they split the characters and after that their character arcs were mostly solidified.

I've actually been looking for this for years. Because if it's such a vivid memory I figure it must be real. Would be extremely cool to gather information from that drafty era. My other favorite games are the Xenoblade series and I've always been interested in how the creators from Xenogears originally tried to work on FFVII and you can see remnants of that in the story. I love this stuff.

 

[Yoru]

I still can’t believe we have to analyze specific wordage when it comes to this debate.

Did other big shipping wars like with Naruto and Bleach have similar conversations?

Like other have pointed, yes it's not only FF7.

But yes... that's why I said a few days ago that we had to stop with the innuendo now. Just tell us what this relationship is. Stop this nonsense.

And honestly if at the end of part 3 they're still beating around the bush, personally I give up. FF7 will be a saga without reel canon and that's that. I'm just tired of fighting the wind.

 

[abzy1200]

Even with Zack and Aerith she uses suki, Tifa's feelings in Traces are suki, Cloud and Tifa's feelings are "omoi" which can also be "romantic feelings" still translated as love And the other romantic instances have been described as koibito taisetsuna onna etc.

Here's the thing though, Tifa displays immense dedication to Cloud right before the LS, by choosing to spend the last week of her life caring for him, even though she knows he will never recover. And going off of Ultimania quotes their feelings "match". Sephiroth uses it to gaslight Cloud into thinking Tifa is an impostor, so the word has been thrown around in regards to Cloud and Tifa. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but "like" or "suki" doesn't really sound like it's proportionate to the love shown between them. You don't go through everything Cloud and Tifa do, and simply "like" each other, that kinda feels off.

that was my blog analyzing Naruto canon and fanon

This one? That's a crazy coincidence if so.

While Cloud sounds like he is apologizing to a girlfriend because Tifa is not his subordinate.

So what are your final thoughts on Cloud using it? if you don't mind me asking, of course. Do you think it is being used in the context of a relationship, or is it only used because Cloud is a reserved character? Or a bit of both?

And honestly if at the end of part 3 they're still beating around the bush, personally I give up. FF7 will be a saga without reel canon and that's that. I'm just tired of fighting the wind.

Let's pray that Nojima really does have conviction.