SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[MelodicEnigma]

For me, it's so much easier with an understanding that pre-CC Zack and post-CC Zack are different depictions of his character and showcase different values for his relationship with Aerith. So much contrast. To be blunt, post-CC Zack is very much so written to be all about Aerith, in a way that any "yeah but-" to this is irrelevant.

"Yeah but he had multiple girlfriends"—it is TRUE btw that in the JPN OG FFVII, Zack does talk about multiple women. What can you do, it's a different depiction of Zack—and I don't need to take the time to describe why this is significantly different in post-CC, so much to the point it'd be unreasonable to plug it in despite CC skipping the conversation. Even if you try to work it around the idea that he was talking about his club members, the context of the convo within CC's context as a whole makes it questionable. And, if Rebirth is anything to go on, the notion just really isn't true either way.

"Yeah but he's a ladies man and Aerith doesn't trust him"—it's more like you could simply argue that Aerith, being aware of Zack having a charming personality, was essentially insecure by the idea that she was really the only one in his life (which to be honest, even the BentStuff Ulti quote shadows that reasonably). While pre-CC can be agreeable to that possibly being true, obviously, post-CC is contrasting to this. So when Aerith in Rebirth is like "I doubt I was the only woman in his life. Charming guy like Zack...", instead, we get his parents talking about him writing about ONE girl, that Cloud talking bad about him got a bad reaction out of BOTH Aerith and Tifa, that Cloud later remembers Zack talking about ONE girl, and we literally see Zack himself completely center his place in the story around Aerith. Yeah, the writers know how to take an expectation and then crush it completely.

In a way that I do think is funny when you also DO consider pre-CC stuff. For example, Zack can be flirtatious, but he is a step away from Johnny Bravo levels of "success" lol He wasn't exactly successful with the receptionist, Cissnei, or the female Turks in BC. He ain't got no girl "on call" or a calendar full of dates. They wrote it so that we as players only see it (finally) take off with Aerith, and he isn't shown to flirt with anyone else after that. Instead, what we do get is Zack standing on a beach alone with Cissnei, who he's flirted with before and literally in a revealing swimsuit herself, and he essentially tells her to leave him be so he can secretly call Aerith who is thousands of miles away, of which Cissnei knows this enough to call him out on. No compliment to Cissnei or anything, just squats and Aerith on that man's brain—that receives a round of boos from others who would call themselves ladies men.

But wait, there's more! In parallel to that scene, we literally have this message from the Zack Fan Club in CC:

We received the following information from a
member of our word-of-mouth network:
Zack's favorite swimsuit has embroidered sunflowers.
Isn't that perfect for someone as sunny as Zack?
He was spotted in Costa del Sol on a break. It was then,
on the day of the simultaneous attacks, that he was
seen fighting foes on the beach with a parasol!
Isn't that WILD? With all this vitality, you might expect
Zack to be a flirtatious player when it comes to romance,
but apparently he's actually very sweet and naive.
Thanks to Black Suit for the info!

"B-but womanizer—" No. lol

"Yeah but, platonic love and puppy love a-a-a-aand FRIENDSHIP"—just...so much wrong. And this is just about quotes. From not understanding Japanese words to not having viable understanding of sentence context, and just, literal story. It's A LOT to even go on about, and it's round and a round and a round of the same fight of interpretation that is exhausting.

That's why I just think most of it is funny. And maybe doesn't matter unless you REALLY want to create change in different communities of FF7. Ambitious and improbable, but commendable. So, the writing, hopefully, will take care of itself enough, which is what I care about most of all. What happens with the understanding in fandom afterwards? Man I can't count on that at all. Couldn't with FF13, couldn't with FF16, couldn't with KH, and definitely not with FF7.

 

[Eerie]

And now people think SEPHIROTH will save Cloud (let's ditch Tifa), this fandom I swear

I will post later on (no time now) a little refocus on what's to wait for p3 on the CT side. Looking at my quotes I still don't know why people have such a hard time understanding which is the canon pairing.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It's a really frustrating talking point because yes, Zack does flirt with other women BEFORE he meets Aerith. Is that a crime now? It's so disingenuous lmao

And it becomes ridiculous because Cloud gets to waver between "both girls" but ZA wasn't serious because Zack was a flirt or had multiple girlfriends? So in other words, CA or CT aren't serious either, lol? One rule for me, another rule for thee.

In Japan, ship names for heterosexual couples are basically always the man's first few kana/gana followed by the woman's. So KuraTei for Cloud and Tifa (you don't fully pronounce all of these letters, Te followed by an i becomes Ti, fu followed by a is Fa, etc. ) ZaEru for Zack and Aerith, If we were shipping Barret and Myrna it would be BarMyr. Sometimes you get cutesier portmanteaus but that's the rules.

For same sex couples the same rules apply, you just pick one of them to come first.

In same-sex ships/couples, the top's name comes first, lol. This is serious business because people have actually gotten into fights about it, lol.

Tifa is listed as a heroine of the game. She is labeled as such on the same page that lists Cloud as the hero and sandwiched between him and Aerith, in fact. Anyone saying she's a side character is huffing the copium, and we're not even to her biggest scenes yet.

But you could totally take Tifa out of the story and nothing would change! Cloud just wanted the whole village to notice him! He was confessing his crush on Sephiroth on the water tower! Aerith could totally do the Lifestream scene with Cetra magic!

Yes, I've actually seen all of those floating around, lol.

 

[Stiggie]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s been retconned for the most part. I think the current Zack depiction is that he’s basically got the rizz with women… but that despite that he’s still a one-woman man for Aerith.

Well, the new thing I've been hearing is them going "I guess the OG is not canon to FFVII lol". Essentially trying to twist the fact that everything since the OG has been going one way as some sort of positive. The thinking being "well, if everything since OG is Cloti through retcon, then that must mean Clerith is the most faithful and true interpretation of the OG". Rather than "Apparently the OG wasn't clear enough and we need to be more blatant before you people understand it".

I don't think there's anything for them to discuss here because Zack doesn't have multiple girlfriends. Aerith doesn't actually believe that he does either, she's just deflecting. Plus, Zack doesn't tell Cloud he has multiple girlfriends in Crisis Core, which overrides what he says in the OG.

It’s definitely been retconned. But you know people will almost assuredly act like it’s still true.

Ahhhh, but retcons don't count see, how silly are you for thinking the developers can ever have input on the story post release. This, btw, is why even if Cloti is so hard cemented in part 3 that even Cleriths can't deny it, they'll still not go away, they'll say its a retcon and that the OG (which they'll claim is Clerith) overrules it.

I think it's good. He can have several girlfriends and still be a good match for Aerith.

That's not much compared to Cloud's hall of fame, if what Cult Clerith says about him to justify his love for Aerith is anything to go by.

Yeah, what even is the argument here? Cloud LITERALLY is into multiple women if we take this take as being accurate. "Zack liked other women"....CLOUD LIKES TIFA!?

I think the "womanizer" discourse comes from Zack mentioning having "multiple girlfriends" in OG (JP). I have not seen the original JP script so I am not sure if that is a mistranslation or if this was the actual JP script.
@Ryushikaze Do you have insight on this?

There was also the Maiden novel where Aerith calls out Zack's flirty ways. (This is not canon material but there are some people who still believe it to be)

If "multiple girlfriends" was a confirmed in OG (JP), it seems to be retconned because there is no mention of Zack having multiple girlfriends in the Ultimanias or other official FFVII media in the compilation. Ultimanias have mentioned how Aerith is special to Zack. The "girlfriend" that Zack mentions in his letter to his parents is implied to be Aerith. And in an interview, Nojima said that he did not intend for Zack to waver between Cissnei and Zack.

On a side note - I think womanizer is the incorrect term to describe Zack because he wasn't involved with multiple women at one time nor was it implied that he did anything sexual with them. I read his character as someone who is charming and playfully flirtatious. And when he met Aerith, he was only committed to her.

I thought Zack wasn't even in the OG Japanese game, so if this is a later release then its a retcon as well, how is one retcon ok but another is not?

So, FFVII International is a direct port of the English Language edition. There are not any changes from the US release as far as I am aware, and that includes any changes to the Zack segment (which was first added into the US version, it being more feature complete than the JP original).
So what I am thinking is that this is a misunderstanding of when Zack is talking about having a place he can creash for awhile but "the mother lives there too" which is a clear nod to Aerith and Elmyra.


So, even if we count Maiden, we can explain that easily. In Crisis Core, Zack is extremely flirty towards Aerith. Just Aerith. She's teasing him.


Yeah, Zack is a one woman man. A wife guy.


I think you can rest easy. You are not delusional. The people who are arguing against literal textual and metatextual statements are delusional.

Thanks, that's what I thought.

Yeah, I just don’t like being called delusional for what I consider to be pretty obvious things that occur in these games.

I understand most other FFs just fine, so I don’t see how I can be so far off the mark with this particular one.

Most of the time I’m confident but sometimes, I hear the other takes and I just begin to wonder…

I am 100% confident that P3 will be even more Cloti, Cloti is the final stop. My main wonder is how unambiguous they'll make it and if not unambiguous where they'll place the balance between "Aerith was misidentifying her feelings for Cloud and isn't actually in love, it was Zack all along", and "She loves both but ends up with Zack". Similarly for Cloud, 0% chance that Cloud will prefer Aerith over Tifa, but no clue if they'll say anything about him having SOME level of crush on her, and whether they'll say anything about that being real or fake with the Zack influence thing.

"Yeah but he had multiple girlfriends"—it is TRUE btw that in the JPN OG FFVII, Zack does talk about multiple women. What can you do, it's a different depiction of Zack—and I don't need to take the time to describe why this is significantly different in post-CC, so much to the point it'd be unreasonable to plug it in despite CC skipping the conversation. Even if you try to work it around the idea that he was talking about his club members, the context of the convo within CC's context as a whole makes it questionable. And, if Rebirth is anything to go on, the notion just really isn't true either way.

Going by that translation it's NOT true.
He talks about a bunch of people all over (the globe, both men and women), then goes through options for Midgar specifically in his head, thinks about Aerith, and laments that she lives with her mother through a general lamentation of "do all women live with their mother?". Saying there are actually multiple women he's considering is a leap that is not necessary. Since this quote doesn't require it, and both the english version and ALL other products don't corroborate it we can say that most likely Aerith is the only girlfriend he's considering even in the JP version. In fact, he doesn't even use the term girlfriend so even if he were talking about multiple women they could have just been friends.
This is similar to me thinking about my GF and saying something like "man, are all women crazy?", doesn't imply I have more than one.

It has to be a new level of delusionally ironic if Cleriths pretend to dislike Zack for Aerith because he's "not loyal", when Aerith getting with Cloud would literally require Cloud to not be loyal to his feelings for Tifa, and Aerith to be not loyal to her feelings for Zack. Apparently everyone can love someone before meeting their soul mate EXCEPT Zack.

 

[Sacky]

Yeah, I just don’t like being called delusional for what I consider to be pretty obvious things that occur in these games.

I understand most other FFs just fine, so I don’t see how I can be so far off the mark with this particular one.

Most of the time I’m confident but sometimes, I hear the other takes and I just begin to wonder…

It's strange I'm like so confident in what I think and from all the hints, and also the OG story XD. But my brain also wants to cover all possible angles, so i will double check and try to see all interpretations. The most annoying thing is when an almost kiss is getting debated if Cloud knew what was happening and was also leaning in (he was) only in this fandom have I ever been told an almost kiss scene between 2 characters who have feelings for each other was not romantic sigh. It's the supreme confidence of people who are just so wrong that makes you question yourself which I guess they don't do XD. But you gotta remember that outside of gaming mass groups of people believe utter crap aswell.

 

[Stiggie]

It's strange I'm like so confident in what I think and from all the hints, and also the OG story XD. But my brain also wants to cover all possible angles, so i will double check and try to see all interpretations. The most annoying thing is when an almost kiss is getting debated if Cloud knew what was happening and was also leaning in (he was) only in this fandom have I ever been told an almost kiss scene between 2 characters who have feelings for each other was not romantic sigh. It's the supreme confidence of people who are just so wrong that makes you question yourself which I guess they don't do XD. But you gotta remember that outside of gaming mass groups of people believe utter crap aswell.

It's just mathmatics combined with a lack of ego. If two people are both 100% sure they're correct, but their beliefs are the others inverse, what are the odds that each one is correct? They both have equal odds. Since in this hypothetical there is someone who is sure they're correct, but is actually wrong, it is impossible to know which one you yourself are until the results are in.

So congrats, you're just not arrogant.

That having been said, there IS a way to know that you are ACTUALLY in the right, and don't just believe you are. Just like I KNOW the earth is round even though some people are equally certain about the inverse.
The trick lies in knowing WHY the other thinks that way, and why it's wrong. Its all about levels of understanding. If you know why someone believes something you will know how they'll reply to your arguments and why those replies are faulty. This moves the conversation forward. It's like going into a certain depth of moves in chess. But at some point you will reach a level where you are still able to understand what the other is saying and why it's wrong, while they're still arguing a level or more back, not understanding what you're actually saying.

Clerith can never go beyond the extremely superficial level of argumentation. If they get rebuffed they'll just deflect to other shallow points that are not relevant to the current topic. So if you explain Depression etc in an argument about Cloud in ACC, they'll not go along and explain why "actually, I know why you think that but if you look at the literature about cherophobia deeper then bla bla". No, they'll just deny your explanation and say something like "no, Cloud is NOT doing that because he's depressed, but because he loves Aerith, just look at the ending to FFVII". But that is a completely separate line of arguing about a different piece of "evidence".

These types of deflections ONLY ever come from Cleriths, that's why you can be sure of who here is actually right, and who just believes that they are.

 

[Yoru]

It's just mathmatics combined with a lack of ego. If two people are both 100% sure they're correct, but their beliefs are the others inverse, what are the odds that each one is correct? They both have equal odds. Since in this hypothetical there is someone who is sure they're correct, but is actually wrong, it is impossible to know which one you yourself are until the results are in.

So congrats, you're just not arrogant.

That having been said, there IS a way to know that you are ACTUALLY in the right, and don't just believe you are. Just like I KNOW the earth is round even though some people are equally certain about the inverse.
The trick lies in knowing WHY the other thinks that way, and why it's wrong. Its all about levels of understanding. If you know why someone believes something you will know how they'll reply to your arguments and why those replies are faulty. This moves the conversation forward. It's like going into a certain depth of moves in chess. But at some point you will reach a level where you are still able to understand what the other is saying and why it's wrong, while they're still arguing a level or more back, not understanding what you're actually saying.

Clerith can never go beyond the extremely superficial level of argumentation. If they get rebuffed they'll just deflect to other shallow points that are not relevant to the current topic. So if you explain Depression etc in an argument about Cloud in ACC, they'll not go along and explain why "actually, I know why you think that but if you look at the literature about cherophobia deeper then bla bla". No, they'll just deny your explanation and say something like "no, Cloud is NOT doing that because he's depressed, but because he loves Aerith, just look at the ending to FFVII". But that is a completely separate line of arguing about a different piece of "evidence".

These types of deflections ONLY ever come from Cleriths, that's why you can be sure of who here is actually right, and who just believes that they are.

It can even be simplier than that.

"I can justify my ship without denigrating yours."

The fact that they always have to drag Tifa through the mud says a lot about her place in the story and her importance in relation to the MC.

Cloti can exist with Clerith in the picture. The opposite can't.

 

[eleamaya]

Zack doesn’t seem to like women playing hard to get, so if they aren’t attracted at him, he simply moves on; never hits on them again. And it’s like Zack has bad luck in flirting lol–if you knew that kind of trope. However, the response he gets from Aerith is different.

At first, Aerith rejected his one date offer. He really thought she wouldn't date him, his response when he bought her the ribbon, surprising at how Aerith mention about his one date offer, "but you say the date is silly." But later, she takes initiative, "hey would you like to go to park?" And that’s how they go on their first date, almost kiss. It’s a win-win. They’re both attracted to each others and Aerith isn’t passive girl (oh how hate I do towards her hater who thinks she's shy and timid in Crisis Core). Then Zack eventually always visits Aerith whenever he’s up to, spending time together,

Kunsel also notice this. That after Angeal's death, Zack always meet Aerith.

Hmmm, I wonder where you might be.Wait, let me guess...
You're hanging out with that Aerith girl again, aren't you?
I bet you're wondering how I got that information.
See, I know everything about you, even if you never tell me anything.
In other words, it's no use keeping secrets from me, because I know how to get information.
So talk to me, Zack. You can tell me anything.
Tell me about all the things that are wearing you down.

I bold the last line because this shows Kunsel aware Zack is not okay after that event, CCFF7R shows the bridge of timeskip between chapter 5 and 6 that he even questioned what he is fighting for. And Zack only feels healed by meeting Aerith; not only by the time she embraces him when he cries after killing Angeal. I believe that's when Zack started sending letters to his parents, telling them about him doing his best as SOLDIER, but he also informs them he had a girlfriend. A man telling his parents that he has a girlfriend means no other than him being serious with her, the one and only. I think this fact itself contradict the additional sequence of him saying on the back of the truck that implies him having multiple girlfriend although Aerith is not sure the girlfriend in the letter refers to her.

Doesn’t mean that he can’t have female friends, right? He’s still friends with Cissnei. Nah, Nomura, along with the Director of original Crisis Core, Hajime Tabata, said that the beach scene between Zack and Cissnei was made to allude to a scene in FFVII, where Aerith says something about Zack having other girlfriend.

── In the beach scene there’s a good atmosphere between Zack and Cissnei, but what’s kind of relationship did they have?
Nomura: "There was a scene in FFVII where Aerith says something about Zack having other girlfriends.”
Tabata: “It’s meant to allude to that. Besides that, she’s also one of the people who gave Zack support along the way. Some of those feelings are depicted in the DMW memory scenes.”

(Dengeki PSP Vol.397)

But Nojima, the scenario writer, confirmed that he didn’t intend to portray Zack waver between Aerith and Cissnei.

──Did you intend to portray Zack’s wavering between Cissnei and Aerith?
Nojima: “No, that’s not true.”

(CCFF7 Ultimania; interview section)

I think this is why, the scenario that is supposed to show Zack having multiple girlfriend shows how faithful he is instead.

This is also a proof that Zack having multiple girlfriend only exist in Aerith's Gongaga speech

We continued running the fan club after Zack's untimely death,
but we have to disband due to financial reasons.
We would like to share one last quote from a woman
who had a close relationship with Zack:

"My wagon broke, so I'm going to use a basket to sell the flowers.
I hope you can join me
when you're back from your tour."

She must not have heard what happened, which makes her comments all the more poignant.
Our thanks go out to all 109,348 members out there.
May Zack always live within our hearts.

Even Zack Fanclub know Aerith is the woman Zack being in relationship with.

I dont know what reason why Aerith doesn't think she's the only one. But if she's okay with that, no wonder she's also okay if she's not the only one for Cloud since Cloud loves Tifa.

Also, Zack is not the only character who is ladiesman or charming with ladies. Zidane is worse than Zack. But I dont see Cleriths hate Zidane end up with Garnet????

And if we talked about full retcon... then I bet we would get the full truck scene in Part 3---Idk why the full version doesnt exist in LO and CC, so it has chance Zack not talking about 'multiple girlfriend' anymore, but straightly Aerith by name. Though what I wish is Cloud is half aware how Zack want to return to her at all cost. Then making him feel more horrible that he couldn't tell Aerith how much Zack loves her.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I don't see the need to keep "charming guy" in Re-trilogy then, it just makes Aerith look bad, I don't like it. I wish there was more middle ground, as is either way I can't ship ZA. Selfishly I wish there was scene where Aerith discovers Zack's final thoughts and how committed he became, and Zack reassures her that he never blamed her.

 

[Sacky]

Zack doesn’t seem to like women playing hard to get, so if they aren’t attracted at him, he simply moves on; never hits on them again. And it’s like Zack has bad luck in flirting lol–if you knew that kind of trope. However, the response he gets from Aerith is different.

At first, Aerith rejected his one date offer. He really thought she wouldn't date him, his response when he bought her the ribbon, surprising at how Aerith mention about his one date offer, "but you say the date is silly." But later, she takes initiative, "hey would you like to go to park?" And that’s how they go on their first date, almost kiss. It’s a win-win. They’re both attracted to each others and Aerith isn’t passive girl (oh how hate I do towards her hater who thinks she's shy and timid in Crisis Core). Then Zack eventually always visits Aerith whenever he’s up to, spending time together,

Kunsel also notice this. That after Angeal's death, Zack always meet Aerith.

I bold the last line because this shows Kunsel aware Zack is not okay after that event, CCFF7R shows the bridge of timeskip between chapter 5 and 6 that he even questioned what he is fighting for. And Zack only feels healed by meeting Aerith; not only by the time she embraces him when he cries after killing Angeal. I believe that's when Zack started sending letters to his parents, telling them about him doing his best as SOLDIER, but he also informs them he had a girlfriend. A man telling his parents that he has a girlfriend means no other than him being serious with her, the one and only. I think this fact itself contradict the additional sequence of him saying on the back of the truck that implies him having multiple girlfriend.

And we know how it ends, he’s faithful to Aerith till the very last thing on his mind. (T_T) Crisis Core Reunion will hit your feelings more because the devs recreate Aerith’s last image on his mind a little bit different.

Doesn’t mean that he can’t have female friends, right? He’s still friends with Cissnei. Nah, Nomura, along with the Director of original Crisis Core, Hajime Tabata, said that the beach scene between Zack and Cissnei was made to allude to a scene in FFVII, where Aerith says something about Zack having other girlfriend.




But Nojima, the scenario writer, confirmed that he didn’t intend to portray Zack waver between Aerith and Cissnei.



I think this is why, the scenario that is supposed to show Zack having multiple girlfriend shows how faithful he is instead.

This is also a proof that Zack having multiple girlfriend only exist in Aerith's Gongaga speech

Even Zack Fanclub know Aerith is the woman Zack being in relationship with.

I dont know what reason why Aerith doesn't think she's the only one. But if she's okay with that, no wonder she's also okay if she's not the only one for Cloud since Cloud loves Tifa.

Also, Zack is not the only character who is ladiesman or charming with ladies. Zidane is worse than Zack. But I dont see Cleriths hate Zidane end up with Garnet????

And if we talked about full retcon... then I bet we would get the full truck scene in Part 3---Idk why the full version doesnt exist in LO and CC, so it has chance Zack not talking about 'multiple girlfriend' anymore, but straightly Aerith by name. Though what I wish is Cloud is half aware how Zack want to return to her at all cost. Then making him feel more horrible that he couldn't tell Aerith how much Zack loves her.

I never understood the Aerith acting different in Crisis core compared to how she is in OG or Remake. Since she is a lot younger, obviously she is going to be different? We also have direct contrast now with how teen Tifa is very confident and speaks her mind a lot in Rebirth with how she is after the Nibelhiem incident. I think part 3 will have a lot more Zack Cloud flashbacks, one of the most suprising scenes in Rebirth was when Zack is just speaking about Aerith to Cloud but we actually hear Cloud answer in the flashback. This already has changed a lot since i don't recall Cloud ever hearing about Aerith from Zack that much in CC but i might be misremembering. Either way theres already a new conversation we never saw in a flashback where Zack is just talking about how great Aerith is.

 

[Yoru]

I'm at Temple of the Ancients and Cloud/Tifa is heavily being pushed despite my C/A playthrough. It's super awkward.

Cloud is going crazy, much to no one's surprise. The team is hella under reacting to his behaviour. I am actually super confused at this point, because I can't decide if Tifa is the only dumbass waifu, or if Aerith is as well. I guess with Aerith I can at least assume she can see the future or some shit.

I'm so tired. They fumbled the romance so hard. So hard that the entire plot feels so fucking broken.

(ngl I'm containing this in the LTD thread because I don't want a fanboy essay about how wrong I am for thinking this shit is bad)

While I agree that LTD can tend to ruin certain moments, I think you're getting a bit too fixated on it. The whole game isn't meant to be read under the spectrum of romance. Some parts are meant to be... some aren't.

It can't all be trench warfare between the two girls. And it's precisely at these moments that I think most of the Cloud voice actor's statements. Any exchange between a woman and a man must not be reduced only to its potential in terms of romance.

As for the team hardly reacting to Cloud going off. It's a fact that's explained in-game, but that few people have picked up on. I think it's more the game's fault than the people's, to be honest, but here's my reading of the situation:

Cloud is Captain America. The team needs him. They're simple people, nobodies. They manage to keep up with him, but he's the one doing the elimination work. That's why he's recruited by Avalanche in the first place. And that's why in the mithril mines they say they're counting on him. He's literally their strong arm. Without him, they can't do anything (according to them).

So yes, Cloud is going mad. Everyone looks at each other strangely. They know it stinks. But they have to deal with it. He's the only one they have to deal with their current situation.

And... he's their friend.

 

[Sacky]

I don't see the need to keep "charming guy" in Re-trilogy then, it just makes Aerith look bad, I don't like it. I wish there was more middle ground, as is either way I can't ship ZA. Selfishly I wish there was scene where Aerith discovers Zack's final thoughts and how committed he became, and Zack reassures her that he never blamed her.

I think thats just Aerith being in denial of Zack's death and preferring the alternative to him actually being dead. Her words don't fit her actions, and she herself feels bad for even saying that to his parents. Its one of the only times that Aerith in the game said something mean theres probably a better word. I think it shows how emotional the topic is and makes it even more impactful. Gongaga was Aerith without a cheerful facade.

 

[Rin]

I don't see the need to keep "charming guy" in Re-trilogy then, it just makes Aerith look bad, I don't like it. I wish there was more middle ground, as is either way I can't ship ZA. Selfishly I wish there was scene where Aerith discovers Zack's final thoughts and how committed he became, and Zack reassures her that he never blamed her.

It's supposed to make her look bad, that's why she feels guilty for her actions afterwards. She didn't say that to his parents because she actually believes there were other women, she says it because she's deflecting. She even tells Cloud that she feels bad for doing that bc it was selfish and unfair to his parents.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Yeah, but I still don't like it. Especially since the CC guide also says Aerith must have been bothered/impatient by Zack's behaviour. It's like oh ok let's put it all on Aerith instead.

 

[Yoru]

It's supposed to make her look bad, that's why she feels guilty for her actions afterwards. She didn't say that to his parents because she actually believes there were other women, she says it because she's deflecting. She even tells Cloud that she feels bad for doing that bc it was selfish and unfair to his parents.

Flawed characters are so interesting ! It would be a real shame to erase this character trait and end up with a bland personality.

More seriously. I don't see why it would make her look bad. The man you meet is a "charming guy" and the minute he's around you, you become his world ? Pretty good looking if you're asking me...

 

[Sacky]

While I agree that LTD can tend to ruin certain moments, I think you're getting a bit too fixated on it. The whole game isn't meant to be read under the spectrum of romance. Some parts are meant to be... some aren't.

It can't all be trench warfare between the two girls. And it's precisely at these moments that I think most of the Cloud voice actor's statements. Any exchange between a woman and a man must not be reduced only to its potential in terms of romance.

As for the team hardly reacting to Cloud going off. It's a fact that's explained in-game, but that few people have picked up on. I think it's more the game's fault than the people's, to be honest, but here's my reading of the situation:

Cloud is Captain America. The team needs him. They're simple people, nobodies. They manage to keep up with him, but he's the one doing the elimination work. That's why he's recruited by Avalanche in the first place. And that's why in the mithril mines they say they're counting on him. He's literally their strong arm. Without him, they can't do anything (according to them).

So yes, Cloud is going mad. Everyone looks at each other strangely. They know it stinks. But they have to deal with it. He's the only one they have to deal with their current situation.

And... he's their friend.

Yeah that's a problem. people see romance in scenes where it isn't meant to be. It's not Cloud wavering between two girls its not 1997 anymore, like some people cling onto that interview for dear life. Its two girls have different bonds and relationships to Cloud yet not one elevated over the other. Romance and Friendship are both forms of love. Its not a CA or CT playthrough. You just get more insight into Clouds relationship in one scene, the Dates, But that doesn't stop the almost kiss or dream date so its not routes like so many people keep stupidly saying. How are the team supposed to react they need Cloud to fight against Sephiroth and they think hes degrading and dying? so what are they supposed to do no one knows what is actually going on with him. So they don't have a solution and are scared that they might speed up his degradation which from Roche they think happens to all SOLDIERS. Tifa and Aerith are also having background conversations on how best to handle helping Cloud im tired of people putting them against each other, or saying its a route if Cloud romances this character when ZERO choices in this game Matter. The dream date shows this illusion of Choice.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Aerith already had flaws, she didn't need a new one, like completely pull something out of her ass about Zack ala I just made up slander style.

 

[Rin]

Yeah, but I still don't like it. Especially since the CC guide also says Aerith must have been bothered/impatient by Zack's behaviour. It's like oh ok let's put it all on Aerith instead.

The context is completely different though. It's been 5 years, she's looking for answers (even though she already has them but doesn't want to believe what she felt), and she meets his parents. They tell her that Zack wrote home to them about her, and in the CC ultimania, it's stated that his letter uses her name specifically. His parents know 100% that she was the girl Zack was in love with but she deflects by saying it could've been someone else. Everyone in the room (sans Cloud at this point) knows that's not true.

It has nothing to do with "putting it all on Aerith". Zack isn't a playboy. He doesn't have multiple girlfriends. And he's not even alive. Aerith is just refusing to let herself mourn and she's upset because every clue she finds is pointing toward the truth she continually refuses to accept.

Yes, it makes Aerith look bad but so what? She's not perfect and that's okay.

Also it's not even a new flaw because she did this in the OG, too lol the scene is virtually the same???

 

[Sacky]

Aerith already had flaws, she didn't need a new one, like completely pull something out of her ass about Zack ala I just made up slander style.

I thought it was already a line in OG though. I just saw it as her getting emotional and having a moment of saying the wrong thing. Which actually humanised her for me in the game because a lot of the time she always said the right thing like the Hojo conversation. She admitted to being angry sure but then instantly said thats wrong. Think it would have been interesting to play around with that a bit showing her being angry at Hojo and not just saying it in a conversation. Her letting him go just felt odd to me.

 

[Yoru]

Yeah, but I still don't like it. Especially since the CC guide also says Aerith must have been bothered/impatient by Zack's behaviour. It's like oh ok let's put it all on Aerith instead.

Aerith doesn't travel the world finding abandonned wifes by Zack. She's just talking by personal experience. She met this guy by surprise and they became a thing in 2 days. This guy is around and all of a sudden, he's gone. She loves him. She doesn't want him to be dead. She prefers the idea of him being alive somewhere with a new girl he met. Because that's exactly how it happened to her. NOTHING MORE. So no. It doesn't make her a bad person. It doesn't give her "free ticket" to have new flaws. She's just human. She's talking about what she knows. And it's not much.

Yeah that's a problem. people see romance in scenes where it isn't meant to be. It's not Cloud wavering between two girls its not 1997 anymore, like some people cling onto that interview for dear life. Its two girls have different bonds and relationships to Cloud yet not one elevated over the other. Romance and Friendship are both forms of love. Its not a CA or CT playthrough. You just get more insight into Clouds relationship in one scene, the Dates, But that doesn't stop the almost kiss or dream date so its not routes like so many people keep stupidly saying. How are the team supposed to react they need Cloud to fight against Sephiroth and they think hes degrading and dying? so what are they supposed to do no one knows what is actually going on with him. So they don't have a solution and are scared that they might speed up his degradation which from Roche they think happens to all SOLDIERS. Tifa and Aerith are also having background conversations on how best to handle helping Cloud im tired of people putting them against each other, or saying its a route if Cloud romances this character when ZERO choices in this game Matter. The dream date shows this illusion of Choice.

YES ! All day every day.

It's not routes. It's not a visual novel with multiple storylines and endings. It's not a dating sim. It's a japanese RPG in the most classical way. You're here to watch a story already decided. You can choose to have certain POV during the story. But it's nothing more than that. You don't change the story.

 

[Sacky]

YES ! All day every day.

It's not routes. It's not a visual novel with multiple storylines and endings. It's not a dating sim. It's a japanese RPG in the most classical way. You're here to watch a story already decided. You can choose to have certain POV during the story. But it's nothing more than that. You don't change the story.

It won't be till part 3 that people realise that the choices were just for fun and this was never a choose your own adventure game. Maybe there was a small bit in the original (getting LA just seems like a skill issue for anything, though tbh), but for the story in HD with voice acting and with all the build up from books and the games,. There should not be any choice in part 3 if you want the story to hit its maximum emotional impact and give a satisfying conclusion. From the variations on the so called optional scenes though i doubt Highwind will even be a choice at all or even have a LA or HA scene unless they both are clearly intimate, and have the same dialogue which the Hug LA scene for Tifa Date in Rebirth was anyway.

 

[Yoru]

Aerith already had flaws, she didn't need a new one, like completely pull something out of her ass about Zack ala I just made up slander style.

And again. As soon as she enters this house, she regrets it. Because she knows. If even his parents haven't heard from him, he's maybe really gone. And they absolutely want to know. They're desperate. She doesn't want to think about that possibility, least of all with them at her side.

SHE WANTS TO GET OUT OF HERE FAST.

So what does she say? "Actually, I'm nobody, sorry to have bothered you. BYE."

That's all. And from her personal experience. It may be true because that's what happened to her. She's not a liar talking shit about Zack just because.

So no. It doesn't make her look bad. Not at all.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Ok, the way you described it made me feel better, thank you.

 

[Rin]

I just don't get the big deal about these characters fucking up and saying the wrong thing sometimes. Like people were saying Tifa is "toxic" for getting mad at Cloud in Kalm and asking where he's been all these years after she was forced to survive and suffer on her own. As if that's not the most realistic thing a woman who is fed up would say out of frustration. This didn't make her a bad person, it made her human.

Similarly, Aerith deflecting and running away from Zack's parents because she doesn't want to accept the truth about his death doesn't make her a bad person, either. Was it the right thing to do or say? No. But who cares? Not everyone says or does the right thing all the time. And yeah, sometimes it makes them "look bad" (tho this is subjective) but that's what makes them feel real.

 

[Yoru]

I just don't get the big deal about these characters fucking up and saying the wrong thing sometimes. Like people were saying Tifa is "toxic" for getting mad at Cloud in Kalm and asking where he's been all these years after she was forced to survive and suffer on her own. As if that's not the most realistic thing a woman who is fed up would say out of frustration. This didn't make her a bad person, it made her human.

I find it so irritating that the only thing this scene evokes in some people's minds is "what a slut."

Like. What's wrong with you? A girl survives a horrible night, she's alone. No home. No money. It was hard, but she got through it.

And the "first thing" her dear "childhood friend" says to her is: hey, I think this might be bullshit, because you're supposed to be dead.

Of course you're sad and mad. Even more when from her POV, dude wasn't even here.

And the only thing he has to say is : I can't tell you. Classified information.