SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rin]

You mean when he invites him in Junon?

I think it’s pretty clear that Zack definitely only has eyes for Aerith after the timeskip.

His dying thoughts are of her. He goes back to Midgar, which is actually the worst place to go considering his situation, in order to be with her.

Yeah in Junon & I think in one of the DMW clips? Which is also where he invites Cissnei to dinner too if I remember right.

Anyway, I agree. He only has eyes for Aerith and Nojima already outright stated that Zack was never wavering between Cissnei and Aerith, and that Zack views his relationship with Cissnei platonically, so I wish people would stop trying to use it as a gotcha already lol.

 

[pxl_pushr]

It's a really frustrating talking point because yes, Zack does flirt with other women BEFORE he meets Aerith. Is that a crime now? It's so disingenuous lmao

It’s high treason according to some…

 

[null]

Didn’t he tell Cissnei to get lost so he could call Aerith? A true player wouldn’t ignore the girl right in front of him lol.

 

[imach0c0]

There's no lyrics on "Words Interrupted by Fireworks"
Uematsu compose music score/BGM inspired by the script he read about specific scene or character
i.e I'm sure many people think FF7AC OST titled "Cloud's Smile" is about the moment he smiles to Zack & Aerith, but Uematsu said he composed that based on Cloud's shy smile on Tifa
People also think "Aerith's Theme" created for Aerith's death scene, and although it's played there, originally Uematsu wanted to compose different song if only he knew Aerith would die

IIRC - I think Nobuo Uemtasu composed Aerith's Theme with the image of Aerith waiting for Zack at the station. There was a line in the scenario he was given where Aerith waited and waited every single day (something along the lines of that). I vaguely remember this interview was published in a pamphlet (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[overheat28]

Cissnei offers to rub suntan lotion on him at the beach. Dude is like "go do something else". Cissnei then correctly guesses he wants to call Aerith.

Pretty girl in bikini offers to rub lotion on him and all this dude can think about is calling his girl back home.

Not to mention the fanclub email where Cissnei herself debunks the flirt accusations.

Zack "womanizer" Fair, lmao.

 

[pxl_pushr]

IIRC - I think Nobuo Uemtasu composed Aerith's Theme with the image of Aerith waiting for Zack at the station. There was a line in the scenario he was given where Aerith waited and waited every single day (something along the lines of that). I vaguely remember this interview was published in a pamphlet (correct me if I'm wrong).

That makes sense to me. Aerith’s theme always sounded somber to me, but I always assumed it had to do with the ultimate fate of the character. I can get a sense of longing from it, so the idea of her waiting for Zack checks out.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Get the conversation back on track please folks, a friendly reminder that this particular section is a little more strict than the rest of the board so try to keep meme'ing and off-topic discussion to an absolute minimum. This is obviously not referring to the few posts immediately prior to mine

Please and thank you

I assure you, it's actually been fairly relevant to the topic, and preferable to the shitshow that made us implement the rules in the first place.

After all this time it did not occur to me what Japanese fans call the ship. I guess it’s クラテイ? But is that really Clatty or is it supposed to be Cloti transformed through the famous katakana loan word funhouse mirror?

The latter, though Clatty is closer to a literal version. Ku Ra U Do is how you spell Cloud in Kana.

It's Kurati normally but clatty is the google translation lol. Basically Cloud and Tifa mashed together as usual for Japanese pairings names [Kura(udo)Ti(fa)].

I honestly didn't even know they had a ship name. I just assumed they always refer to the pairings with just the character names straight up.

In Japan, ship names for heterosexual couples are basically always the man's first few kana/gana followed by the woman's. So KuraTei for Cloud and Tifa (you don't fully pronounce all of these letters, Te followed by an i becomes Ti, fu followed by a is Fa, etc. ) ZaEru for Zack and Aerith, If we were shipping Barret and Myrna it would be BarMyr. Sometimes you get cutesier portmanteaus but that's the rules.

For same sex couples the same rules apply, you just pick one of them to come first.

Also, fuck Usagi Drop. With a chainsaw.

 

[GamerSkull]

After looking at a recent reply that Shinra Archeology Department made, I was subjected to shipping tweets against my will.

Saw someone say in response to some video or post about Tifa (can’t remember since I clicked off as soon as I read it) that Tifa was some background side character compared to Aerith and “what game did they play?”

God, I’m so confused. Maybe this is why Nomura and Nojima aren’t afraid. They know that no matter what, the opposing side will still thrive on some bizarre headcanons that they’ll pretend is 100% canon.

Seriously, I’m so confused.

Each side is super confident in their victory, so that means one of us has to be delusional. I really hope Part 3 clears that up.

 

[Rin]

After looking at a recent reply that Shinra Archeology Department made, I was subjected to shipping tweets against my will.

Saw someone say in response to some video or post about Tifa (can’t remember since I clicked off as soon as I read it) that Tifa was some background side character compared to Aerith and “what game did they play?”

God, I’m so confused. Maybe this is why Nomura and Nojima aren’t afraid. They know that no matter what, the opposing side will still thrive on some bizarre headcanons that they’ll pretend is 100% canon.

Seriously, I’m so confused.

Each side is super confident in their victory, so that means one of us has to be delusional. I really hope Part 3 clears that up.

It will, but the losing side will act like it won't, so we'll still be here lol. Just be prepared for that. It genuinely doesn't matter what SE does. The fighting will continue.

 

[Ryushikaze]

After looking at a recent reply that Shinra Archeology Department made, I was subjected to shipping tweets against my will.

Saw someone say in response to some video or post about Tifa (can’t remember since I clicked off as soon as I read it) that Tifa was some background side character compared to Aerith and “what game did they play?”

Tifa is listed as a heroine of the game. She is labeled as such on the same page that lists Cloud as the hero and sandwiched between him and Aerith, in fact. Anyone saying she's a side character is huffing the copium, and we're not even to her biggest scenes yet.

God, I’m so confused. Maybe this is why Nomura and Nojima aren’t afraid. They know that no matter what, the opposing side will still thrive on some bizarre headcanons that they’ll pretend is 100% canon.

Seriously, I’m so confused.

Each side is super confident in their victory, so that means one of us has to be delusional. I really hope Part 3 clears that up.

I with all confidence will state that it is the other side.

 

[GamerSkull]

It will, but the losing side will act like it won't, so we'll still be here lol. Just be prepared for that. It genuinely doesn't matter what SE does. The fighting will continue.

Yeah, that’s true. At least with most regular fans the matter will be settled.

 

[imach0c0]

Cissnei offers to rub suntan lotion on him at the beach. Dude is like "go do something else". Cissnei then correctly guesses he wants to call Aerith.

Pretty girl in bikini offers to rub lotion on him and all this dude can think about is calling his girl back home.

Not to mention the fanclub email where Cissnei herself debunks the flirt accusations.

Zack "womanizer" Fair, lmao.

I think the "womanizer" discourse comes from Zack mentioning having "multiple girlfriends" in OG (JP). I have not seen the original JP script so I am not sure if that is a mistranslation or if this was the actual JP script.
@Ryushikaze Do you have insight on this?

There was also the Maiden novel where Aerith calls out Zack's flirty ways. (This is not canon material but there are some people who still believe it to be)

If "multiple girlfriends" was a confirmed in OG (JP), it seems to be retconned because there is no mention of Zack having multiple girlfriends in the Ultimanias or other official FFVII media in the compilation. Ultimanias have mentioned how Aerith is special to Zack. The "girlfriend" that Zack mentions in his letter to his parents is implied to be Aerith. And in an interview, Nojima said that he did not intend for Zack to waver between Cissnei and Zack.

On a side note - I think womanizer is the incorrect term to describe Zack because he wasn't involved with multiple women at one time nor was it implied that he did anything sexual with them. I read his character as someone who is charming and playfully flirtatious. And when he met Aerith, he was only committed to her.

 

[GamerSkull]

Tifa is listed as a heroine of the game. She is labeled as such on the same page that lists Cloud as the hero and sandwiched between him and Aerith, in fact. Anyone saying she's a side character is huffing the copium, and we're not even to her biggest scenes yet.


I with all confidence will state that it is the other side.

That’s just it. I don’t necessarily want to “win”. I just want confirmation that I’m not delusional and that I had the media literacy skills to understand the original story.

 

[GamerSkull]

I think the "womanizer" discourse comes from Zack mentioning having "multiple girlfriends" in OG (JP). I have not seen the original JP script so I am not sure if that is a mistranslation or if the was actually written.
@Ryushikaze Do you have insight on this?

There was also the Maiden novel where Aerith calls out Zack's flirty ways. (This is not canon material but there are some people who still believe it to be)

If "multiple girlfriends" was a confirmed in OG (JP), it seems to be retconned because there is no mention of Zack having multiple girlfriends in the Ultimanias or other official FFVII media in the compilation. Ultimanias have mentioned how Aerith is special to Zack. The "girlfriend" that Zack mentions in his letter to his parents is implied to be Aerith. And in an interview, Nojima said that he did not intend for Zack to waver between Cissnei and Zack.

On a side note - I think womanizer is the incorrect term to describe Zack because he wasn't involved with multiple women at one time nor was it implied that he did anything sexual with them. I read his character as someone who is charming and playfully flirtatious. And when he met Aerith, he was only committed to her.

Womanizer has a negative connotation because it implies a lack of loyalty. There’s almost an implication of “serial cheater” with it.

I think it’s more accurate to say Zack was a “ladies man” in that he wasn’t a two-timer but just had insane rizz so he was often not turned down.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think the "womanizer" discourse comes from Zack mentioning having "multiple girlfriends" in OG (JP). I have not seen the original JP script so I am not sure if that is a mistranslation or if this was the actual JP script.
@Ryushikaze Do you have insight on this?

So, FFVII International is a direct port of the English Language edition. There are not any changes from the US release as far as I am aware, and that includes any changes to the Zack segment (which was first added into the US version, it being more feature complete than the JP original).
So what I am thinking is that this is a misunderstanding of when Zack is talking about having a place he can creash for awhile but "the mother lives there too" which is a clear nod to Aerith and Elmyra.

There was also the Maiden novel where Aerith calls out Zack's flirty ways. (This is not canon material but there are some people who still believe it to be)

So, even if we count Maiden, we can explain that easily. In Crisis Core, Zack is extremely flirty towards Aerith. Just Aerith. She's teasing him.

If "multiple girlfriends" was a confirmed in OG (JP), it seems to be retconned because there is no mention of Zack having multiple girlfriends in the Ultimanias or other official FFVII media in the compilation. Ultimanias have mentioned how Aerith is special to Zack. The "girlfriend" that Zack mentions in his letter to his parents is implied to be Aerith. And in an interview, Nojima said that he did not intend for Zack to waver between Cissnei and Zack.

On a side note - I think womanizer is the incorrect term to describe Zack because he wasn't involved with multiple women at one time nor was it implied that he did anything sexual with them. I read his character as someone who is charming and playfully flirtatious. And when he met Aerith, he was only committed to her.

Yeah, Zack is a one woman man. A wife guy.

That’s just it. I don’t necessarily want to “win”. I just want confirmation that I’m not delusional and that I had the media literacy skills to understand the original story.

I think you can rest easy. You are not delusional. The people who are arguing against literal textual and metatextual statements are delusional.

 

[pxl_pushr]

That’s just it. I don’t necessarily want to “win”. I just want confirmation that I’m not delusional and that I had the media literacy skills to understand the original story.

Here’s something I do to kind of “check myself”. First, stop and remember that we’re talking about a Final Fantasy game. One entry in a a catalogue of anthology stories that all hover closely around eachother in terms of narrative and character complexity.

So while polyamorous answers to the LTD make for funny memes and appealing fanfiction… that’s not FF.

A guy building a life with another character to pass the time as he waits to die and reunite with his true love… that’s not FF.

You can see FF7 DNA in most of its immediate titles. It’s no accident that Kefka and Sephiroth get compared as villains, because S is an evolution of K.

In short, if you have no problem decoding any other FF title, then FF7 should be simple… IF you actually pay attention. There’s some wiggle room, but not nearly as much to justify some of the more extreme takes. Even if Cloud started to develop feelings for Aerith, fact is that he’s Team Tifa at the end of the day.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah, I just don’t like being called delusional for what I consider to be pretty obvious things that occur in these games.

I understand most other FFs just fine, so I don’t see how I can be so far off the mark with this particular one.

Most of the time I’m confident but sometimes, I hear the other takes and I just begin to wonder…

 

[looneymoon]

I'm at Temple of the Ancients and Cloud/Tifa is heavily being pushed despite my C/A playthrough. It's super awkward.

Cloud is going crazy, much to no one's surprise. The team is hella under reacting to his behaviour. I am actually super confused at this point, because I can't decide if Tifa is the only dumbass waifu, or if Aerith is as well. I guess with Aerith I can at least assume she can see the future or some shit.

I'm so tired. They fumbled the romance so hard. So hard that the entire plot feels so fucking broken.

(ngl I'm containing this in the LTD thread because I don't want a fanboy essay about how wrong I am for thinking this shit is bad)

 

[frosty]

It's a really frustrating talking point because yes, Zack does flirt with other women BEFORE he meets Aerith. Is that a crime now? It's so disingenuous lmao

Is weird cos Zidane and Tidus do the "ladies man" schtick aka flirt, hit on other women, put on Casanova act but shown to want to emotionally support / be protective of only the main love interest but no one writes essays about that shit

 

[MelodicEnigma]

For me, it's so much easier with an understanding that pre-CC Zack and post-CC Zack are different depictions of his character and showcase different values for his relationship with Aerith. So much contrast. To be blunt, post-CC Zack is very much so written to be all about Aerith, in a way that any "yeah but-" to this is irrelevant.

"Yeah but he had multiple girlfriends"—it is TRUE btw that in the JPN OG FFVII, Zack does talk about multiple women. What can you do, it's a different depiction of Zack—and I don't need to take the time to describe why this is significantly different in post-CC, so much to the point it'd be unreasonable to plug it in despite CC skipping the conversation. Even if you try to work it around the idea that he was talking about his club members, the context of the convo within CC's context as a whole makes it questionable. And, if Rebirth is anything to go on, the notion just really isn't true either way.

"Yeah but he's a ladies man and Aerith doesn't trust him"—it's more like you could simply argue that Aerith, being aware of Zack having a charming personality, was essentially insecure by the idea that she was really the only one in his life (which to be honest, even the BentStuff Ulti quote shadows that reasonably). While pre-CC can be agreeable to that possibly being true, obviously, post-CC is contrasting to this. So when Aerith in Rebirth is like "I doubt I was the only woman in his life. Charming guy like Zack...", instead, we get his parents talking about him writing about ONE girl, that Cloud talking bad about him got a bad reaction out of BOTH Aerith and Tifa, that Cloud later remembers Zack talking about ONE girl, and we literally see Zack himself completely center his place in the story around Aerith. Yeah, the writers know how to take an expectation and then crush it completely.

In a way that I do think is funny when you also DO consider pre-CC stuff. For example, Zack can be flirtatious, but he is a step away from Johnny Bravo levels of "success" lol He wasn't exactly successful with the receptionist, Cissnei, or the female Turks in BC. He ain't got no girl "on call" or a calendar full of dates. They wrote it so that we as players only see it (finally) take off with Aerith, and he isn't shown to flirt with anyone else after that. Instead, what we do get is Zack standing on a beach alone with Cissnei, who he's flirted with before and literally in a revealing swimsuit herself, and he essentially tells her to leave him be so he can secretly call Aerith who is thousands of miles away, of which Cissnei knows this enough to call him out on. No compliment to Cissnei or anything, just squats and Aerith on that man's brain—that receives a round of boos from others who would call themselves ladies men.

But wait, there's more! In parallel to that scene, we literally have this message from the Zack Fan Club in CC:

We received the following information from a
member of our word-of-mouth network:
Zack's favorite swimsuit has embroidered sunflowers.
Isn't that perfect for someone as sunny as Zack?
He was spotted in Costa del Sol on a break. It was then,
on the day of the simultaneous attacks, that he was
seen fighting foes on the beach with a parasol!
Isn't that WILD? With all this vitality, you might expect
Zack to be a flirtatious player when it comes to romance,
but apparently he's actually very sweet and naive.
Thanks to Black Suit for the info!

"B-but womanizer—" No. lol

"Yeah but, platonic love and puppy love a-a-a-aand FRIENDSHIP"—just...so much wrong. And this is just about quotes. From not understanding Japanese words to not having viable understanding of sentence context, and just, literal story. It's A LOT to even go on about, and it's round and a round and a round of the same fight of interpretation that is exhausting.

That's why I just think most of it is funny. And maybe doesn't matter unless you REALLY want to create change in different communities of FF7. Ambitious and improbable, but commendable. So, the writing, hopefully, will take care of itself enough, which is what I care about most of all. What happens with the understanding in fandom afterwards? Man I can't count on that at all. Couldn't with FF13, couldn't with FF16, couldn't with KH, and definitely not with FF7.

 

[Eerie]

And now people think SEPHIROTH will save Cloud (let's ditch Tifa), this fandom I swear

I will post later on (no time now) a little refocus on what's to wait for p3 on the CT side. Looking at my quotes I still don't know why people have such a hard time understanding which is the canon pairing.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It's a really frustrating talking point because yes, Zack does flirt with other women BEFORE he meets Aerith. Is that a crime now? It's so disingenuous lmao

And it becomes ridiculous because Cloud gets to waver between "both girls" but ZA wasn't serious because Zack was a flirt or had multiple girlfriends? So in other words, CA or CT aren't serious either, lol? One rule for me, another rule for thee.

In Japan, ship names for heterosexual couples are basically always the man's first few kana/gana followed by the woman's. So KuraTei for Cloud and Tifa (you don't fully pronounce all of these letters, Te followed by an i becomes Ti, fu followed by a is Fa, etc. ) ZaEru for Zack and Aerith, If we were shipping Barret and Myrna it would be BarMyr. Sometimes you get cutesier portmanteaus but that's the rules.

For same sex couples the same rules apply, you just pick one of them to come first.

In same-sex ships/couples, the top's name comes first, lol. This is serious business because people have actually gotten into fights about it, lol.

Tifa is listed as a heroine of the game. She is labeled as such on the same page that lists Cloud as the hero and sandwiched between him and Aerith, in fact. Anyone saying she's a side character is huffing the copium, and we're not even to her biggest scenes yet.

But you could totally take Tifa out of the story and nothing would change! Cloud just wanted the whole village to notice him! He was confessing his crush on Sephiroth on the water tower! Aerith could totally do the Lifestream scene with Cetra magic!

Yes, I've actually seen all of those floating around, lol.

 

[Stiggie]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s been retconned for the most part. I think the current Zack depiction is that he’s basically got the rizz with women… but that despite that he’s still a one-woman man for Aerith.

Well, the new thing I've been hearing is them going "I guess the OG is not canon to FFVII lol". Essentially trying to twist the fact that everything since the OG has been going one way as some sort of positive. The thinking being "well, if everything since OG is Cloti through retcon, then that must mean Clerith is the most faithful and true interpretation of the OG". Rather than "Apparently the OG wasn't clear enough and we need to be more blatant before you people understand it".

I don't think there's anything for them to discuss here because Zack doesn't have multiple girlfriends. Aerith doesn't actually believe that he does either, she's just deflecting. Plus, Zack doesn't tell Cloud he has multiple girlfriends in Crisis Core, which overrides what he says in the OG.

It’s definitely been retconned. But you know people will almost assuredly act like it’s still true.

Ahhhh, but retcons don't count see, how silly are you for thinking the developers can ever have input on the story post release. This, btw, is why even if Cloti is so hard cemented in part 3 that even Cleriths can't deny it, they'll still not go away, they'll say its a retcon and that the OG (which they'll claim is Clerith) overrules it.

I think it's good. He can have several girlfriends and still be a good match for Aerith.

That's not much compared to Cloud's hall of fame, if what Cult Clerith says about him to justify his love for Aerith is anything to go by.

Yeah, what even is the argument here? Cloud LITERALLY is into multiple women if we take this take as being accurate. "Zack liked other women"....CLOUD LIKES TIFA!?

I think the "womanizer" discourse comes from Zack mentioning having "multiple girlfriends" in OG (JP). I have not seen the original JP script so I am not sure if that is a mistranslation or if this was the actual JP script.
@Ryushikaze Do you have insight on this?

There was also the Maiden novel where Aerith calls out Zack's flirty ways. (This is not canon material but there are some people who still believe it to be)

If "multiple girlfriends" was a confirmed in OG (JP), it seems to be retconned because there is no mention of Zack having multiple girlfriends in the Ultimanias or other official FFVII media in the compilation. Ultimanias have mentioned how Aerith is special to Zack. The "girlfriend" that Zack mentions in his letter to his parents is implied to be Aerith. And in an interview, Nojima said that he did not intend for Zack to waver between Cissnei and Zack.

On a side note - I think womanizer is the incorrect term to describe Zack because he wasn't involved with multiple women at one time nor was it implied that he did anything sexual with them. I read his character as someone who is charming and playfully flirtatious. And when he met Aerith, he was only committed to her.

I thought Zack wasn't even in the OG Japanese game, so if this is a later release then its a retcon as well, how is one retcon ok but another is not?

So, FFVII International is a direct port of the English Language edition. There are not any changes from the US release as far as I am aware, and that includes any changes to the Zack segment (which was first added into the US version, it being more feature complete than the JP original).
So what I am thinking is that this is a misunderstanding of when Zack is talking about having a place he can creash for awhile but "the mother lives there too" which is a clear nod to Aerith and Elmyra.


So, even if we count Maiden, we can explain that easily. In Crisis Core, Zack is extremely flirty towards Aerith. Just Aerith. She's teasing him.


Yeah, Zack is a one woman man. A wife guy.


I think you can rest easy. You are not delusional. The people who are arguing against literal textual and metatextual statements are delusional.

Thanks, that's what I thought.

Yeah, I just don’t like being called delusional for what I consider to be pretty obvious things that occur in these games.

I understand most other FFs just fine, so I don’t see how I can be so far off the mark with this particular one.

Most of the time I’m confident but sometimes, I hear the other takes and I just begin to wonder…

I am 100% confident that P3 will be even more Cloti, Cloti is the final stop. My main wonder is how unambiguous they'll make it and if not unambiguous where they'll place the balance between "Aerith was misidentifying her feelings for Cloud and isn't actually in love, it was Zack all along", and "She loves both but ends up with Zack". Similarly for Cloud, 0% chance that Cloud will prefer Aerith over Tifa, but no clue if they'll say anything about him having SOME level of crush on her, and whether they'll say anything about that being real or fake with the Zack influence thing.

"Yeah but he had multiple girlfriends"—it is TRUE btw that in the JPN OG FFVII, Zack does talk about multiple women. What can you do, it's a different depiction of Zack—and I don't need to take the time to describe why this is significantly different in post-CC, so much to the point it'd be unreasonable to plug it in despite CC skipping the conversation. Even if you try to work it around the idea that he was talking about his club members, the context of the convo within CC's context as a whole makes it questionable. And, if Rebirth is anything to go on, the notion just really isn't true either way.

Going by that translation it's NOT true.
He talks about a bunch of people all over (the globe, both men and women), then goes through options for Midgar specifically in his head, thinks about Aerith, and laments that she lives with her mother through a general lamentation of "do all women live with their mother?". Saying there are actually multiple women he's considering is a leap that is not necessary. Since this quote doesn't require it, and both the english version and ALL other products don't corroborate it we can say that most likely Aerith is the only girlfriend he's considering even in the JP version. In fact, he doesn't even use the term girlfriend so even if he were talking about multiple women they could have just been friends.
This is similar to me thinking about my GF and saying something like "man, are all women crazy?", doesn't imply I have more than one.

It has to be a new level of delusionally ironic if Cleriths pretend to dislike Zack for Aerith because he's "not loyal", when Aerith getting with Cloud would literally require Cloud to not be loyal to his feelings for Tifa, and Aerith to be not loyal to her feelings for Zack. Apparently everyone can love someone before meeting their soul mate EXCEPT Zack.

 

[Sacky]

Yeah, I just don’t like being called delusional for what I consider to be pretty obvious things that occur in these games.

I understand most other FFs just fine, so I don’t see how I can be so far off the mark with this particular one.

Most of the time I’m confident but sometimes, I hear the other takes and I just begin to wonder…

It's strange I'm like so confident in what I think and from all the hints, and also the OG story XD. But my brain also wants to cover all possible angles, so i will double check and try to see all interpretations. The most annoying thing is when an almost kiss is getting debated if Cloud knew what was happening and was also leaning in (he was) only in this fandom have I ever been told an almost kiss scene between 2 characters who have feelings for each other was not romantic sigh. It's the supreme confidence of people who are just so wrong that makes you question yourself which I guess they don't do XD. But you gotta remember that outside of gaming mass groups of people believe utter crap aswell.

 

[Stiggie]

It's strange I'm like so confident in what I think and from all the hints, and also the OG story XD. But my brain also wants to cover all possible angles, so i will double check and try to see all interpretations. The most annoying thing is when an almost kiss is getting debated if Cloud knew what was happening and was also leaning in (he was) only in this fandom have I ever been told an almost kiss scene between 2 characters who have feelings for each other was not romantic sigh. It's the supreme confidence of people who are just so wrong that makes you question yourself which I guess they don't do XD. But you gotta remember that outside of gaming mass groups of people believe utter crap aswell.

It's just mathmatics combined with a lack of ego. If two people are both 100% sure they're correct, but their beliefs are the others inverse, what are the odds that each one is correct? They both have equal odds. Since in this hypothetical there is someone who is sure they're correct, but is actually wrong, it is impossible to know which one you yourself are until the results are in.

So congrats, you're just not arrogant.

That having been said, there IS a way to know that you are ACTUALLY in the right, and don't just believe you are. Just like I KNOW the earth is round even though some people are equally certain about the inverse.
The trick lies in knowing WHY the other thinks that way, and why it's wrong. Its all about levels of understanding. If you know why someone believes something you will know how they'll reply to your arguments and why those replies are faulty. This moves the conversation forward. It's like going into a certain depth of moves in chess. But at some point you will reach a level where you are still able to understand what the other is saying and why it's wrong, while they're still arguing a level or more back, not understanding what you're actually saying.

Clerith can never go beyond the extremely superficial level of argumentation. If they get rebuffed they'll just deflect to other shallow points that are not relevant to the current topic. So if you explain Depression etc in an argument about Cloud in ACC, they'll not go along and explain why "actually, I know why you think that but if you look at the literature about cherophobia deeper then bla bla". No, they'll just deny your explanation and say something like "no, Cloud is NOT doing that because he's depressed, but because he loves Aerith, just look at the ending to FFVII". But that is a completely separate line of arguing about a different piece of "evidence".

These types of deflections ONLY ever come from Cleriths, that's why you can be sure of who here is actually right, and who just believes that they are.