SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

I know what you mean but I think people are over-exaggerating a bit with the water tower. Because they forget that it's primarily a knockoff. And that's a pretty strong meaning. Not to mention Cloud's reaction + the dialogue with Aerith, which is still a Clotifest.

I'll agree partly, but it does dilute the water tower motif to being exclusively CT.

Especially since it's not a secret place to begin with. It's already been said that it's the place used in the village for couples.

Yeah that's the thing. It's a date spot. It was only Cloud and Tifa's. Cloud and Aerith had dates all over Rebirth, couldn't they let that one out?

 

[pxl_pushr]

Basically, things we can't claim 100% as CT as we did before: stars motif, water tower motif and even Tifa calling Cloud cute like a little chocobo (and have him subsquently styling his hair every time we'd stop by the Costa del Sol house). I know people are like "but it got way better for CT!" and I will agree on this, but it's like losing spice in your buffet. I know a lot of CTs are a little sad because of this.

Hmm actually hadn’t thought about it that way. While I do primarily associate star imagery with CT, I wonder if some room had to be made to better massage CC into FF7

 

[Eerie]

Hmm actually hadn’t thought about it that way. While I do primarily associate star imagery with CT, I wonder if some room had to be made to better massage CC into FF7

It honestly felt that they knew a lot of little CT motifs were really nice so instead of getting new ones for CA, they just used the CT ones which pisses me off as it comes really bad and unimaginative.

 

[pxl_pushr]

It honestly felt that they knew a lot of little CT motifs were really nice so instead of getting new ones for CA, they just used the CT ones which pisses me off as it comes really bad and unimaginative.

Yeah, but the me that tries to see narrative significance in what reads as weird shipping stuff, I wonder if that’s further commentary on CA being the illusion vs CT being the reality, similar to how CA things were shown to be ZA in truth?

 

[Eerie]

Yeah, but the me that tries to see narrative significance in what reads as weird shipping stuff, I wonder if that’s further commentary on CA being the illusion vs CT being the reality, similar to how CA things were shown to be ZA in truth?

There is no CT star imagery in Rebirth, and even the shooting star was missing in Remake's flashback of the promise. I know it is done on purpose for p3 and probably the Lifestream scene. But someone with no knowledge of the OG will associate stars with CA and not CT now.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Thanks again, just to clarify I'm not mad about people being true to themselves, I was upset about something in particular, but I digress, this thread isn't about me, and I don't want to ruin things for everyone.

I've been enjoying some time away from this thread watching some of my favourite streamers amongst other things including someone who recently started Rebirth

 

[Ryeleigh]

Tifa calling Cloud cute like a little chocobo (and have him subsquently styling his hair every time we'd stop by the Costa del Sol house).

Aww, that sounds so cute.

 

[Yoru]

Thanks again, just to clarify I'm not mad about people being true to themselves, I was upset about something in particular, but I digress, this thread isn't about me, and I don't want to ruin things for everyone.

It was addressed more to the lurkers than to you, but since you're here I'll take this opportunity to tell you that you have the right to display yourself as you wish.

Personally, I don't see Aerith as a concrete romance at all. So yes, whatever happens I will always speak “against” her when it comes to talking about CA arguments. Because it's simply something I don't perceive.

But just because I don't defend the idea of her forming a couple with Cloud doesn't automatically mean I hate her. Quite the opposite. And I think I'm allowed to love her too. It's just that it's for different reasons.

She's gorgeous, funny, endearing with a fragile side that you want to protect. I love the way she teases and makes fun of Cloud. She's irreplaceable for me in FF7. But her heart belongs to someone else. And that's what I want to defend.

Of course, you can defend the opposite. No problem with that. But it's just too easy to paint everyone as anti when we're not going in the same direction. She's nobody's exclusive character. She's ours too. And I'll always disapprove of people who simply hate her or invent false intentions for her.

I think you get it too, so I'm not going to beat around the bush and poison the discussion with it. But I'm an honest person so I'd rather use this opportunity to be clear about it.

 

[pxl_pushr]

It was addressed more to the lurkers than to you, but since you're here I'll take this opportunity to tell you that you have the right to display yourself as you wish.

Personally, I don't see Aerith as a concrete romance at all. So yes, whatever happens I will always speak “against” her when it comes to talking about CA arguments. Because it's simply something I don't perceive.

But just because I don't defend the idea of her forming a couple with Cloud doesn't automatically mean I hate her. Quite the opposite. And I think I'm allowed to love her too. It's just that it's for different reasons.

She's gorgeous, funny, endearing with a fragile side that you want to protect. I love the way she teases and makes fun of Cloud. She's irreplaceable for me in FF7. But her heart belongs to someone else. And that's what I want to defend.

Of course, you can defend the opposite. No problem with that. But it's just too easy to paint everyone as anti when we're not going in the same direction. She's nobody's exclusive character. She's ours too. And I'll always disapprove of people who simply hate her or invent false intentions for her.

I think you get it too, so I'm not going to beat around the bush and poison the discussion with it. But I'm an honest person so I'd rather use this opportunity to be clear about it.

View attachment 16979

Gonna echo the same sentiment and add my own perspective.

Any negative interpretation of Aerith I may put forward isn’t grounded in me believing she’s intended to be a bad person in the story. If anything, I aim that at the writers and want it to be taken as confusion on how I’m supposed to read her actions. I know the writers would NEVER assassinate a character or portray them as some kind of monstrous individual ( hell, they’re gearing up to humanize Sephiroth for god sake ) so any sentiment that seems misaligned with that goal is what causes me confusion.

Aerith would never intentionally do something to harm her friends in any capacity. She loves cherishes them all dearly, even if I believe the game itself does a shaky job showing it while it’s telling me those things.

That said, I do believe she’s capable of making mistakes, just like the rest of the cast. That’s what makes them all loveable, they are imperfect.

I love Aerith too and want the best for her character, and imo that involves giving her some blemishes so her many good points can shine that much brighter.

 

[Yoru]

Yeah that's the thing. It's a date spot. It was only Cloud and Tifa's. Cloud and Aerith had dates all over Rebirth, couldn't they let that one out?

I think that's the point. It WAS a date spot.

But it's not Nibel anymore. The people who knew its meaning are mostly dead. And that's why, in Tifa's quest with her cat, she chose not to tell the new owner her real name. Because it's not her cat anymore. It's no longer Nibelheim. She's leaving all that behind.

Her promise and this tower will always be hers alone, in her heart. That's why, in the Japanese LS, she refers to it as “My precious... memory”.

 

[abzy1200]

Regarding the Water Tower scene with Cloud and Aerith, what I'm about to say may have been touched on or straight up mentioned, so sorry if this post is redundant.

Anyway, another layer I'd like to add is that it is a fake watertower, an illusion if you will, but even more so it's a fake Nibelheim. The atmosphere is dreadful, everything feels wrong. In the sector 5 dream date, to me atleast, it felt wrong. This is another example of Cloud and Aerith being in typically romantic situations or acting like a couple, but that it feels wrong. It feels wrong for Cloud and Aerith to be acting like a couple, which we are basically told by the photographer during the dream date, and the atmosphere in fake Nibelheim accentuates that, there is a far from pleasant atmosphere from start to finish in Nibelheim, and this Water Tower interaction is no different.

Another interesting thing that has sprung to mind is that it could possibly be a parallel to the sector 5 dream date:

The church is Aerith's place, I don't think it's contested that the church is a precious place to Aerith.

The Water Tower, while I wouldn't say is "Cloud's place", I would argue that it is a precious place to him.

So, when Aerith speaks of the Church in the sector 5 dream date, a place I'd argue she primarily associates with Zack, we are given a shot of Zack sitting at the Church. The placement of this shot is intentional, the references to Zack serve to show that while Aerith might like Cloud and has just spent time with him (I'd argue romantically), she can't quite let go of Zack. This is an instance of Cloud and Aerith being in a situation where they are acting like a couple, but during it are we shown the person who Aerith truly longs for, and at a place Aerith cherishes. This is Aerith's side of the parallel.

On Cloud's side, this is more of the same. We are at the Water Tower, a place that is undoubtedly precious to him and a place he most likely associates with Tifa, Cloud and Aerith are "acting like a couple" on this Water Tower since it's a date spot, yet here we are also given a shot of Tifa during the interaction, the person Cloud truly longs for.

Hopefully, I got my point across here, but in short: Both at locations Cloud and Aerith each cherish, we are given a shot of their true love while they are "acting like a couple" with each other at their respective cherished spots. We are shown Zack when Aerith brings up the Church (Aerith's precious place), and we are given a shot of Tifa while Cloud and Aerith are on the Water Tower (Cloud's precious place), and that this is an interesting yet possibly specious parallel. And all this feeds into the idea that Cloud and Aerith acting like a couple is wrong, or at least feels like it.

 

[Yoru]

Regarding the Water Tower scene with Cloud and Aerith, what I'm about to say may have been touched on or straight up mentioned, so sorry if this post is redundant.

Anyway, another layer I'd like to add is that it is a fake watertower, an illusion if you will, but even more so it's a fake Nibelheim. The atmosphere is dreadful, everything feels wrong. In the sector 5 dream date, to me atleast, it felt wrong. This is another example of Cloud and Aerith being in typically romantic situations or acting like a couple, but that it feels wrong. It feels wrong for Cloud and Aerith to be acting like a couple, which we are basically told by the photographer during the dream date, and the atmosphere in fake Nibelheim accentuates that, there is a far from pleasant atmosphere from start to finish in Nibelheim, and this Water Tower interaction is no different.

Another interesting thing that has sprung to mind is that it could possibly be a parallel to the sector 5 dream date.

The church is Aerith's place, I don't think it's contested that the church is a precious place to Aerith.

The Water Tower, while I wouldn't say is "Cloud's place", I would argue that it is a precious place to him.

So, when Aerith speaks of the Church in the sector 5 dream date, a place I'd argue she primarily associates with Zack, we are given a shot of Zack sitting at the Church. The placement of this shot is intentional, the references to Zack serve to show that while Aerith might like Cloud and has just spent time with him (I'd argue romantically), she can't quite let go of Zack. This is an instance of Cloud and Aerith being in a situation where they are acting like a couple, but during it are we shown the person who Aerith truly longs for, and at a place Aerith cherishes. This is Aerith's side of the parallel.

On Cloud's side, this is more of the same. We are at the Water Tower, a place that is undoubtedly precious to him and a place he most likely associates with Tifa, Cloud and Aerith are "acting like a couple" on this Water Tower since it's a date spot, yet here we are also given a shot of Tifa during the interaction, the person Cloud truly longs for.

Hopefully, I got my point across here, but in short: Both at locations Cloud and Aerith each cherish, we are given a shot of their true love while they are "acting like a couple" with each other at their respective cherished spots. We are shown Zack when Aerith brings up the Church (Aerith's precious place), and we are given a shot of Tifa while Cloud and Aerith are on the Water Tower (Cloud's precious place), and that this is an interesting yet possibly specious parallel. And all this feeds into the idea that Cloud and Aerith acting like a couple is wrong, or at least feels like it.

“Wrong” may be too strong of a word. I would say they're leaning for someone else more.

For me, it's the game that tells us “although nothing in itself prevents them from being together, in the end they're not made for each other, because it's a place already occupied by someone else”.

Even more so now that Zack's back. In OG it wasn't fair to Aerith because he was dead and away from her. But in Rebirth, with his hand reaching out and touching her... Aerith now also has the opportunity to reunite with her other half.

And I think that's why "it doesn't work" between Cloud and Aerith.

 

[abzy1200]

“Wrong” may be too strong of a word. I would say they're leaning for someone else more.

For me, it's the game that tells us “although nothing in itself prevents them from being together, in the end they're not made for each other, because it's a place already occupied by someone else”.

Even more so now that Zack's back. In OG it wasn't fair to Aerith because he was dead and away from her. But in Rebirth, with his hand reaching out and touching her... Aerith now also has the opportunity to reunite with her other half.

And I think that's why "it doesn't work" between Cloud and Aerith.

Well, I didn't necessarily mean "wrong" so much as I meant "not exactly right".

 

[pxl_pushr]

“Wrong” may be too strong of a word. I would say they're leaning for someone else more.

For me, it's the game that tells us “although nothing in itself prevents them from being together, in the end they're not made for each other, because it's a place already occupied by someone else”.

Even more so now that Zack's back. In OG it wasn't fair to Aerith because he was dead and away from her. But in Rebirth, with his hand reaching out and touching her... Aerith now also has the opportunity to reunite with her other half.

And I think that's why "it doesn't work" between Cloud and Aerith.

Any “wrongness” I get from scenes like the dream date and any of Zack’s interludes is likely from the setting vs what actually happens in them.

They feel like they shouldn’t exist, and that seems deliberate. How they manage to do that? I have difficulty articulating and that fascinates me.

 

[nars305]

About the water tower, I guess I never saw it from the angle of it being taken from CT.

It’s just a moment to me that shows how Cloud was becoming more comfortable with Aerith to let her have a glimpse into one of his most precious things. I feel like it’s still very much CT and Cloud somewhat sharing his feelings about Tifa. I mean Aerith even gets a little jealous of them.

 

[Yoru]

About the water tower, I guess I never saw it from the angle of it being taken from CT.

It’s just a moment to me that shows how Cloud was becoming more comfortable with Aerith to let her have a glimpse into one of his most precious things. I feel like it’s still very much CT and Cloud somewhat sharing his feelings about Tifa. I mean Aerith even gets a little jealous of them.

Especially when the best answer to maximize Aerith's affection is :

 

[Eerie]

Regarding the Water Tower scene with Cloud and Aerith, what I'm about to say may have been touched on or straight up mentioned, so sorry if this post is redundant.

Anyway, another layer I'd like to add is that it is a fake watertower, an illusion if you will, but even more so it's a fake Nibelheim. The atmosphere is dreadful, everything feels wrong. In the sector 5 dream date, to me atleast, it felt wrong. This is another example of Cloud and Aerith being in typically romantic situations or acting like a couple, but that it feels wrong. It feels wrong for Cloud and Aerith to be acting like a couple, which we are basically told by the photographer during the dream date, and the atmosphere in fake Nibelheim accentuates that, there is a far from pleasant atmosphere from start to finish in Nibelheim, and this Water Tower interaction is no different.

Another interesting thing that has sprung to mind is that it could possibly be a parallel to the sector 5 dream date.

The church is Aerith's place, I don't think it's contested that the church is a precious place to Aerith.

The Water Tower, while I wouldn't say is "Cloud's place", I would argue that it is a precious place to him.

So, when Aerith speaks of the Church in the sector 5 dream date, a place I'd argue she primarily associates with Zack, we are given a shot of Zack sitting at the Church. The placement of this shot is intentional, the references to Zack serve to show that while Aerith might like Cloud and has just spent time with him (I'd argue romantically), she can't quite let go of Zack. This is an instance of Cloud and Aerith being in a situation where they are acting like a couple, but during it are we shown the person who Aerith truly longs for, and at a place Aerith cherishes. This is Aerith's side of the parallel.

On Cloud's side, this is more of the same. We are at the Water Tower, a place that is undoubtedly precious to him and a place he most likely associates with Tifa, Cloud and Aerith are "acting like a couple" on this Water Tower since it's a date spot, yet here we are also given a shot of Tifa during the interaction, the person Cloud truly longs for.

Hopefully, I got my point across here, but in short: Both at locations Cloud and Aerith each cherish, we are given a shot of their true love while they are "acting like a couple" with each other at their respective cherished spots. We are shown Zack when Aerith brings up the Church (Aerith's precious place), and we are given a shot of Tifa while Cloud and Aerith are on the Water Tower (Cloud's precious place), and that this is an interesting yet possibly specious parallel. And all this feeds into the idea that Cloud and Aerith acting like a couple is wrong, or at least feels like it.

While I agree with all of this (and the parallel you made there is quite nice), I think 99% of players will NOT analyse this scene at all and take it as they see it. It's all well to make scenes that need analysing but most people simply won't make the effort because they take everything at face value, and I feel it may be one of SE's weakness as a whole, to believe players are able to understand those scenes better than what the players actually are able to take from a scene. See FFXVI.

About the water tower, I guess I never saw it from the angle of it being taken from CT.

It’s just a moment to me that shows how Cloud was becoming more comfortable with Aerith to let her have a glimpse into one of his most precious things. I feel like it’s still very much CT and Cloud somewhat sharing his feelings about Tifa. I mean Aerith even gets a little jealous of them.

And I would argue that Cloud would never admit this. Because he never opens up to those feelings to anyone, since they must remain a secret. I do believe that the actual true Cloud answer to Aerith there should be the one where he denies it.

It also makes more sense for Aerith to be comfortable to take him on a date (whether ch12 or the dream date) if he never admits it too. Otherwise it would scream desperate and I don't believe Aerith is desperate.

 

[nars305]

Especially when the best answer to maximize Aerith's affection is :

View attachment 16981

He flies his simp flag high

 

[Stiggie]

Yeah, while there is stuff that I feel was taken from CT I don't think the water tower is one since imo that scene 100% revolved around tifa so it was strengthened.

What I do absolutely hate....is no promises to keep. "The promise" is THE cloti theme, and undermining it like that just sickens me. For me these writing decisions do make me dislike Aerith as a character, because I think what defines a good character is when they exist in service to the story. When they add to it and Improve it. And what I hate is when I feel like the story is in service to them, and that's what rebirth and the whole defying destiny thing feels like in regards to aerith. Like the game is not about the story of ffvii, but about Aerith and her death.

 

[MissMDusk]

I also personally feel the same about the Water Tower scene. Their "date" really could have been anywhere else but they decided to have Aerith sit right where Tifa did and have Cloud talk about his honest feelings to her and it... Just didn't feel great to watch tbh. Like I guess I get it, but I also definitely believe Nojima when he said it was hard to write this scene (believe it was in the Ultimania) overall lol.

I just hope they compensate with CT and put some new and extra scenes between them in the next game? Though with a big chunk of the plot left to chew I'm not sure how they'd even fit new content in like that lol. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[nars305]

And I would argue that Cloud would never admit this. Because he never opens up to those feelings to anyone, since they must remain a secret. I do believe that the actual true Cloud answer to Aerith there should be the one where he denies it.

It also makes more sense for Aerith to be comfortable to take him on a date (whether ch12 or the dream date) if he never admits it too. Otherwise it would scream desperate and I don't believe Aerith is desperate.

I do get what you mean, and I still think it’s janky due to one of my one biggest gripes about the game. Tifa and Aerith are in a love triangle on the outside of the game but not inside of the game. It causes these weird moments. In this scene she is teasing him about his feelings for Tifa and then in a later scene she is trying to figure out her feelings. It can be argued she can be aware of Tifa’s feelings and still like Cloud, but that is not what is alluded to in the story. It’s almost as if that answer is there for the player wanting Cloud to admit that about Tifa OR, wanting Cloud to be honest with Aerith. So it’s janky.

That was a tangent that kind of went off point, but yes I see what you mean and I agree it was a strange answer. But with that scene and it being the best choice I can only assume it’s to show him opening up to Aerith. I agree the more awkward response is more Cloud to me.

It reminds me of the Cosmo Canyon bonfire speech. I chose smile because it seems like that’s what Cloud would do to me and it turned out being the most awkward smile ever.

 

[abzy1200]

He flies his simp flag high

You bet he does. I'd argue this is when he flies it highest:

 

[Eerie]

Yeah, while there is stuff that I feel was taken from CT I don't think the water tower is one since imo that scene 100% revolved around tifa so it was strengthened.

What I do absolutely hate....is no promises to keep. "The promise" is THE cloti theme, and undermining it like that just sickens me. For me these writing decisions do make me dislike Aerith as a character, because I think what defines a good character is when they exist in service to the story. When they add to it and Improve it. And what I hate is when I feel like the story is in service to them, and that's what rebirth and the whole defying destiny thing feels like in regards to aerith. Like the game is not about the story of ffvii, but about Aerith and her death.

I thought au contraire that the song title was very evocative of how CA wasn’t meant to be; I also didn’t think it would be good if it was going to be about Zack either. In FF, promises are often strong romantic tropes, so saying there was no promise to keep was basically saying there was nothing left to await from the pairing. To me the song fits infinitely better at the end of the game too.

I do get what you mean, and I still think it’s janky due to one of my one biggest gripes about the game. Tifa and Aerith are in a love triangle on the outside of the game but not inside of the game. It causes these weird moments. In this scene she is teasing him about his feelings for Tifa and then in a later scene she is trying to figure out her feelings. It can be argued she can be aware of Tifa’s feelings and still like Cloud, but that is not what is alluded to in the story. It’s almost as if that answer is there for the player wanting Cloud to admit that about Tifa OR, wanting Cloud to be honest with Aerith. So it’s janky.

That was a tangent that kind of went off point, but yes I see what you mean and I agree it was a strange answer. But with that scene and it being the best choice I can only assume it’s to show him opening up to Aerith. I agree the more awkward response is more Cloud to me.

It reminds me of the Cosmo Canyon bonfire speech. I chose smile because it seems like that’s what Cloud would do to me and it turned out being the most awkward smile ever.

Toriyama and Nojima did comment that Cloud’s answers could be OOC and they didn’t like this much so I still believe he smiles to Aerith at the bonfire (introvert would never make a fuss) and that he denies watching Tifa from the water tower.

 

[Sacky]

x.com

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Good thread by Shady on our favourite scene to talk about XD

 

[imach0c0]

Regarding the Water Tower Scene --

I think what makes it a bit disjointed is the scene is addressing too many things at once in a short period of time without a clear focus. One one hand, Cloud is opening up to Aerith as he recollects his memories. (This holds more weight knowing the context that Nibelheim is a place of trauma for him). On the other side, it becomes about Aerith as she expresses envy about the CT relationship and how she wishes she had a friend to reminisce with. On top of that, the CT relationship looms over the scene due to how iconic the Water Tower is and Aerith teasing Cloud about it.

At first glance, it can seem like the CT promise scene is being replaced or shared with CA. However, I think the sacredness of the CT promise scene is protected because of how the CA scene is presented:

-The best answer is for Cloud to admit that he probably kept lookout to have Tifa wave at him
-This Water Tower is a replica, not the original
-Cloud does not sit beside Aerith despite her inviting him to sit next to her (He chooses to sit in his original spot)
-The scene occurs in the daytime (Promise scene occurs under the starry night)
-When Tifa waves, Cloud makes a shy expression (indicating his emotional connection to her)

Having said that, it requires the player to analyze and look past the surface to detect these nuances.