SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[pxl_pushr]

What I also love is that they show us how Tifa is caring for Yuffie while Cloud tries to comfort Barret. SE shows us more than just the bond between Cloud and Tifa. So we get to see the strong connection between them but also how much they look out for their friends.

Omggg, I will never understand the Zerith hate.

I’m hoping the stuff with Yuffie is going to get a strong payoff in part 3 in the Wutai segment. They did do a great job massaging her into the group, way better than I thought they would.

I think Aerith is just particularly challenging because her ultimate fate eats up so much gravitas. Out of the whole group, she has the loftiest fate, so whatever character building time outside of that gets eaten up by building to her embracing her role as a Cetra. I honestly can’t think of any comfortable way to build her relationships across the board without Cloud himself stepping back.

The affinity system should’ve been bumped and sidequests opened up to be between any mix of characters more appropriate for the quest.

 

[ViolaaFox]

I’m hoping the stuff with Yuffie is going to get a strong payoff in part 3 in the Wutai segment. They did do a great job massaging her into the group, way better than I thought they would.

I think Aerith is just particularly challenging because her ultimate fate eats up so much gravitas. Out of the whole group, she has the loftiest fate, so whatever character building time outside of that gets eaten up by building to her embracing her role as a Cetra. I honestly can’t think of any comfortable way to build her relationships across the board without Cloud himself stepping back.

The affinity system should’ve been bumped and sidequests opened up to be between any mix of characters more appropriate for the quest.

Yeah, the part with Yuffie could become very interesting.

That's a good point and it makes sense. It's still a shame that it wasn't possible to include more scenes of Aerith forming friendships with other group members. But hey, we got "Traces of two pasts" where she at least gets to talk a bit with Tifa.

I wonder if part 3 will include an affinity system as I don't think that they'll make the Highwind scene optional.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Yeah, the part with Yuffie could become very interesting.

That's a good point and it makes sense. It's still a shame that it wasn't possible to include more scenes of Aerith forming friendships with other group members. But hey, we got "Traces of two pasts" where she at least gets to talk a bit with Tifa.

I wonder if part 3 will include an affinity system as I don't think that they'll make the Highwind scene optional.

Well, I think they only included it in Rebirth because of the original, but the section part 3 covers doesn’t have that mechanic, so hopefully they just don’t bother and do character quest chains instead for the ultimate weapons and final limits. Or, better yet, weave the rich character moments into the plot so we can limit side stuff as economically as possible.

 

[ViolaaFox]

Well, I think they only included it in Rebirth because of the original, but the section part 3 covers doesn’t have that mechanic, so hopefully they just don’t bother and do character quest chains instead for the ultimate weapons and final limits. Or, better yet, weave the rich character moments into the plot so we can limit side stuff as economically as possible.

Character quest chains would be awesome but I don't think that SE will do something like this. Which is unfortune because I always loved playing through stuff like that. It's also a great opportunity to learn more about the characters without packing everything into the main story.

 

[Ryeleigh]

About Aerith's GS date, I know people have already dissected it in the thread, lol, but I thought I'd add my two cents on it. Or at least the part where Aerith stumbles and Cloud goes on to catch her and they end up in kissing distance like in any rom-com harem. What I thought was interesting is how they both get so stiff and awkward and immediately let each other go. It kind of felt as if neither of them ever thought about kissing the other at least but... Well, what do I know. I hope Part 3 will be clear about CT and ZA and even CA.

 

[ViolaaFox]

About Aerith's GS date, I know people have already dissected it in the thread, lol, but I thought I'd add my two cents on it. Or at least the part where Aerith stumbles and Cloud goes on to catch her and they end up in kissing distance like in any rom-com harem. What I thought was interesting is how they both get so stiff and awkward and immediately let each other go. It kind of felt as if neither of them ever thought about kissing the other at least but... Well, what do I know. I hope Part 3 will be clear about CT and ZA and even CA.

That scene also surprised me when I first saw it because I thought that at least Aerith would be into it. But it's exactly as you say both of them let go. I mean Aerith seems conflicted about her feelings in general..she is more specific that she is not aware of her exact feelings for Cloud but maybe Zack also plays a part in this.

 

[pxl_pushr]

About Aerith's GS date, I know people have already dissected it in the thread, lol, but I thought I'd add my two cents on it. Or at least the part where Aerith stumbles and Cloud goes on to catch her and they end up in kissing distance like in any rom-com harem. What I thought was interesting is how they both get so stiff and awkward and immediately let each other go. It kind of felt as if neither of them ever thought about kissing the other at least but... Well, what do I know. I hope Part 3 will be clear about CT and ZA and even CA.

That’s the main sign, at least in my eyes, that even if there’s something romantic between them, it’s too mixed up in other things.

That’s like the third time someone has stumbled into kissing distance of Cloud? His reactions are different every time, but only one character has a unique reaction.

 

[Yoru]

About Aerith's GS date, I know people have already dissected it in the thread, lol, but I thought I'd add my two cents on it. Or at least the part where Aerith stumbles and Cloud goes on to catch her and they end up in kissing distance like in any rom-com harem. What I thought was interesting is how they both get so stiff and awkward and immediately let each other go. It kind of felt as if neither of them ever thought about kissing the other at least but... Well, what do I know. I hope Part 3 will be clear about CT and ZA and even CA.

People can interpret this scene as they like. No problem.

The thing is, it's not a scene in a vacuum. We happen to have an element of comparison. And we can compare Cloud's reaction with two different women in the same situation. And it's night and day.

In a game in which the developers never cease to point out that a great deal of effort has been put into Cloud's animations - his eyes, his hands, his shoulders - I still find it blatantly obvious that he's strangely neutral in only one of the date.

And the shyness excuse doesn't hold water, because the developers have said they're using animations to emphasize it. All to show that his shyness is getting the better of his desire to look cool.

 

[ViolaaFox]

People can interpret this scene as they like. No problem.

The thing is, it's not a scene in a vacuum. We happen to have an element of comparison. And we can compare Cloud's reaction with two different women in the same situation. And it's night and day.

In a game in which the developers never cease to point out that a great deal of effort has been put into Cloud's animations - his eyes, his hands, his shoulders - I still find it blatantly obvious that he's strangely neutral in only one of the date.

And the shyness excuse doesn't hold water, because the developers have said they're using animations to emphasize it. All to show that his shyness is getting the better of his desire to look cool.

Exactly. The devs had the opportunity to give Aerith a kiss scene during her GS date but in the end decided to make this scene exclusive to one character. When the leak with the HA Tifa date appeared, I actually assumed that Aerith would also get a scene like that (which turned out to be wrong). And that is actually enough for me to say that there was no real triangle in that sense for the remake series.

 

[Yoru]

Exactly. The devs had the opportunity to give Aerith a kiss scene during her GS date but in the end decided to make this scene exclusive to one character. When the leak with the HA Tifa date appeared, I actually assumed that Aerith would also get a scene like that (which turned out to be wrong). And that is actually enough for me to say that there was no real triangle in that sense for the remake series.

We don't even have to go this far.

Just the LA versions are enough :

• Aerith : She grabs his arm (like always) and use his shoulder. Cloud is surprised and she tells him "just till the ride is over". He does nothing more. He just stays still.
• Tifa : Cloud is the one who makes the first move. He reaches out and pulls her back into his arms.

So we have a scene where he's willing to go with the flow VS a scene where he's the one to provoke it. Rather telling about his feelings imo.

 

[imach0c0]

People can interpret this scene as they like. No problem.

The thing is, it's not a scene in a vacuum. We happen to have an element of comparison. And we can compare Cloud's reaction with two different women in the same situation. And it's night and day.

In a game in which the developers never cease to point out that a great deal of effort has been put into Cloud's animations - his eyes, his hands, his shoulders - I still find it blatantly obvious that he's strangely neutral in only one of the date.

And the shyness excuse doesn't hold water, because the developers have said they're using animations to emphasize it. All to show that his shyness is getting the better of his desire to look cool.

Regarding the "shyness" arguments --

I read Cloud's character as someone pure and almost innocent in a way. Though he tries to act "cool," its just on the surface - a coping mechanism. Therefore, I think the shyness comes from a place of being uncomfortable and not knowing what to do. Not because he has "romantic feelings" and does not know how to act on them. Its important to note that when Cloud is uncomfortable, he has shown to put up a "cool" front, however he sometimes ends up being awkward in the process.

From a storytelling POV and in respect to Cloud's character, it does not make sense for Cloud to initiate something "romantic" with Aerith in that moment. Even if an opportunity presented itself. Cloud is in an awkward position because just prior to the GS date, Cloud "remembers" Zack "dying" and being in love with Aerith. He also is aware that Aerith maybe still has feelings for Zack. Seeing how Cloud brings the Zack topic up in both the Tifa and Aerith GS date, indicates to me that he is genuinely concerned about Aerith.

For Cloud to initiate something "romantic" with Aerith seems out of place because:
a) It would make Cloud come off as a 2 timer. Especially with the "almost" Tifa kiss in the main story (I don't think that is how Cloud's character is supposed to be portrayed)
b) It seems OOC for Cloud as he has not shown any romantic interest towards Aerith NOR seems to be aware of her feelings towards him

 

[imach0c0]

The thing is, it's not a scene in a vacuum. We happen to have an element of comparison. And we can compare Cloud's reaction with two different women in the same situation. And it's night and day.

In a game in which the developers never cease to point out that a great deal of effort has been put into Cloud's animations - his eyes, his hands, his shoulders - I still find it blatantly obvious that he's strangely neutral in only one of the date.

And the shyness excuse doesn't hold water, because the developers have said they're using animations to emphasize it. All to show that his shyness is getting the better of his desire to look cool.

I would argue Yuffie's date also offers insight into Tifa and Cloud's relationship, especially in regards to how Cloud cares about what Tifa thinks of him. When Yuffie says Tifa probably forgot about him, Cloud seems to look bothered or disappointed by it. The concerned expression Cloud makes (in how his eyebrows are animated) seems only unique to Tifa.

 

[Yoru]

NOR seems to be aware of her feelings towards him

Oh I think he knows very well how she feels and that's precisely why he does what he can to put up boundaries.

Whether it's the way he always refuses to sit down close to her, or the fact that he gets irritated when she talks about dates when he chooses to help people in Costa.

He chooses to play along with the GS date because he thinks he knows about Zack and wants to be there to comfort her. But that's about it.

And I think that's why none of the dialogue choices for Aerith include a "flirt" option. While Tifa does have some.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Oh I think he knows very well how she feels and that's precisely why he does what he can to put up boundaries.

Whether it's the way he always refuses to sit down close to her, or the fact that he gets irritated when she talks about dates when he chooses to help people in Costa.

He chooses to play along with the GS date because he thinks he knows about Zack and wants to be there to comfort her. But that's about it.

And I think that's why none of the dialogue choices for Aerith include a flirt option. While Tifa does have some.

Cloud’s been hit on so much since he showed up in Midgar, I find it hard to believe he has no idea about Aerith to some degree, but his concern for her stress about Zack and guilt over forgetting him/insulting his friend is overriding it.

But there’s also her change in personality from Remake to Rebirth that also may be throwing him off. It’s almost like Gongaga clicks a lightbulb in his head and he’s like “ahh this whole Zack business might be messing with her, best say he’s a loser so she doesn’t worry about him” then he pisses both girls off.

He remembers, and he’s regretful and doubly concerned because he knows Zack’s fate: likely dead, and Cloud doesn’t like giving out bad news.

I dunno, it just feels like the thread of plot points is so clear, with general bonding in between that feeds into those plot points.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I have to say I felt really sorry for Zack when Cloud asked during their date if Tifa talked to Aerith and Aerith responded with "Probably not. Not about anything important at least. I wanna be with you now" (paraphrased). She was most likely hiding and downplaying her feelings (for Zack at least) but I really hope that ZA reunion and CT in Part 3 will be epic just to clear all the misconceptions. I mean, Zack deserves the world too, you know?

 

[Yoru]

I have to say I felt really sorry for Zack when Cloud asked during their date if Tifa talked to Aerith and Aerith responded with "Probably not. Not about anything important at least. I wanna be with you now" (paraphrased). She was most likely hiding and downplaying her feelings (for Zack at least) but I really hope that ZA reunion and CT in Part 3 will be epic just to clear all the misconceptions. I mean, Zack deserves the world too, you know?

To be fair, that's not really what she's saying. She's more apologizing to Cloud for approaching him for the wrong reasons than brushing off her feelings for Zack.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I have to say I felt really sorry for Zack when Cloud asked during their date if Tifa talked to Aerith and Aerith responded with "Probably not. Not about anything important at least. I wanna be with you now" (paraphrased). She was most likely hiding and downplaying her feelings (for Zack at least) but I really hope that ZA reunion and CT in Part 3 will be epic just to clear all the misconceptions. I mean, Zack deserves the world too, you know?

Tbf to Aerith, I don’t think any version of her we see in game is aware of Zack’s fate, what he’s going through, or why.

I’m also not sure if she means that purely as a romantic declaration. I think her method of “looking for the real Cloud” is to say something or put him in situations where she knows what Zack would say/do and comparing Cloud to that.

She comes to realize that’s not fair to Cloud and going forward wants to find the real him through more genuine means, similar to Nibelheim for example. That’s all my read of it anyway. I don’t think it was meant to be a swipe at Zack

 

[Ryeleigh]

Tbf to Aerith, I don’t think any version of her we see in game is aware of Zack’s fate, what he’s going through, or why.

It didn't mean I still didn't feel sorry for Zack, lol. I guess it's fine. I'll just wait for the ZA reunion in Part 3. Even if there's a slim chance that it doesn't end favourably, I think it's still inevitable that they will have one.

 

[pxl_pushr]

It didn't mean I still didn't feel sorry for Zack, lol. I guess it's fine. I'll just wait for the ZA reunion in Part 3. Even if there's a slim chance that it doesn't end favourably, I think it's still inevitable that they will have one.

For sure. Though now I’m of the mind that it’ll either be at the very beginning or at the very end. Something tells me it’ll either be a high point immediately followed by a kick to the shin, or something we’ll need to fight for all throughout.

 

[abzy1200]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think she actually says she wants to be with him. I think in JP she says "I want to meet you".

 

[imach0c0]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think she actually says she wants to be with him. I think in JP she says "I want to meet you".

JP: あなたに会いたい
I want to meet you
Note: It can also mean "I miss you" (depending on context)
Maybe @Ryushikaze can provide more insight

Not sure what the context or reason it was localized to: "Cause right now, I wanna be with you" in ENG.

I find the JP line much more poetic and powerful.

Curious - what is the localization of that line in other languages?

 

[Ryeleigh]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think she actually says she wants to be with him. I think in JP she says "I want to meet you".

Yeah, I think so. But that's still what she says in English and unless all the English-playing audience also play the game in Japanese, "I wanna be with you now" is what they will get.

And all that really makes me feel is, "don't do this to my boy Zack, lol".

 

[Yoru]

Curious - what is the localization of that line in other languages?

French :
Because it's you... I want to see.
It's you... I want to know.

 

[Ryushikaze]

You're right, what was I thinking? Lemme just chug pink lemonade until silly thoughts like these pass.

And then we can all ride Hailey's comet to eternity. Wait, wrong cult.

I noticed that when I returned from my insomnia induced waking nightmare. Swap one nightmare for another, right?

At least this one is external?

It's sad when you can't find "up" on your own. But if course if they looked at a map, they'd see all roads lead to Tifa.

But when you have the map rotated 180 degrees, the A is first and so it must mean Aerith.

I love it. Also replacing the Razorback with a cheese board.

Maybe make him from NZ instead of an Aussie, too.

Naturally. But it sounds more polite, and in the end that's all that matters to fancy people right?

Exactly. Manners Heavy can be a southern lady in a giant hat. Still with a giant rotary cannon, mind.

One thing the Netflix series did well. If Matt Murdock appears triumphant, he's either too beaten to keep going or his whole life is on fire. Likely both.

And he will have no one to blame but himself.

Dad Peter and Mommy M.J. are what the world really needs.

Yes. Allow superheroes to grow, including growing old, having kids, and retiring.
Then have them freak out when their kids become superheroes.

I know they thought about it hard back around 2010 or so, though for the life of me I can't recall where I learned that.

Though even without that, there are no universes I can think of where Wanda doesn't have it rough.

I think there's only the universe where every member of the Avengers has a fabulous beard.

Once again, I know it's a typo but "rectonned" is such a perfect word for a retcon pulled straight from one's ass and I want to see it in use everywhere.

I shall make it so.

No doubt. You'd almost expect a secondary mutation bonus prize for even surviving such a thing.

You mean the phoenix force or the character assassination from editorial?

Truly he is the uncrowned prince of the bright side of life.

If he could still talk, he could sing us a happy tune about looking on the bright side.

Seriously you could for real teach a class just by using this debate as a "don't do this" example list.

I do think every major logical fallacy has been hit with both obvious and subtle examples, so, yes.

I make a special plea that they fuckin' stop already

That's a rather common plea, all told.

Casting things out and casting them out is fun. All the cool kids do it. Join us.

Just make sure you do so with intellectual rigor.

It's cute that they think they're baiting a trap for anyone but themselves.

I have to wonder what the endgame was when the post history was just right there, ready to read.

And if they did it quietly and didn't try to insist that's reality, we wouldn't be here

Yeah. It's not the shipping that's maddening, it's the making shit up.
Like someone talked about Kingdom Hearts and how Sora kept meeting pricnesses and princes of various world as a comparison to him and Kairi and it was "obvious" Aerith was the princess of the world all the FF people came from (Radiant Garden), except for 2 major problems.
1. Not all the princesses of Heart Sora meets have princes, certainly not ones Sora himself meets.
2. Kairi is the princess of Heart of Radiant Garden. Not Aerith. And then there's the whole "Tifa is Cloud's light" thing...

I also saw an argument about "thematically matching names" as evidence, which was funny because they picked out Tidus and Yuna and Noctis and Luna as examples of this, and then forgot all about Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Zidane and Garnet/ Dagger, Vaan and Penelo, Snow and Serah and Clive and Jill and that's not even the full list of "not thematically linked" names, since I only did the most main pairing from the main series.

Tbf to Aerith, I don’t think any version of her we see in game is aware of Zack’s fate, what he’s going through, or why.

Not consciously, but I think she suspects, given she reacts at the end of CC.

I’m also not sure if she means that purely as a romantic declaration. I think her method of “looking for the real Cloud” is to say something or put him in situations where she knows what Zack would say/do and comparing Cloud to that.

She comes to realize that’s not fair to Cloud and going forward wants to find the real him through more genuine means, similar to Nibelheim for example. That’s all my read of it anyway. I don’t think it was meant to be a swipe at Zack

Yeah, she wants to try and be fair (ba dum tish) to Cloud and to her memory of Zack. The problem is she's emotionally conflated the two of them and can't quiiiite extricate them.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think she actually says she wants to be with him. I think in JP she says "I want to meet you".

"I want to meet the real you" essentially, same as she said back in 97. Not a quote, since I'm being lazy, just that is what I remember of the quote. Looking at the line, yeah, "Want to meet you" is the literal translation and I think the emphasis is on the you -anata - in the spoken line.

 

[Ryushikaze]

JP: あなたに会いたい
I want to meet you
Note: It can also mean "I miss you" (depending on context)
Maybe @Ryushikaze can provide more insight

Not sure what the context or reason it was localized to: "Cause right now, I wanna be with you" in ENG.

To hazard a guess, the thrust there is "I don't want to be seeing the specter of the man I miss, I want to be with just you right now."
This goes along with the narrative line that Aerith knows she HAS to move on, rationally wants to... but she can't figure out quite how. The boy she thought was a way forward is turning out to be a way back to the emotions she needs to push behind her.