SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[The Twilight Mexican]

The only difference now is that this is the canon depictions of the characters, in the universe of the game from which they came from

Yes, but I'm not sure where your line of thought is headed. This is one universe's canon version of these characters just as the original game features another universe's canon version of these characters -- and the KH series features yet another universe's canon version of them. Nomura has been clear that all of these are separate universes.

All I am saying is that it's difficult to be dismissive of shipper nonsense anymore when there is pretty equivalent nonsense that's been presented in the narrative+creators themselves, as it stands right now. Cloud having adulterous rendezvous with Aerith in a field of flowers isn't any less silly than the suggestion of there being two Buster Swords roaming around, or that a potato chip bag is the key to understanding all the universe's questions

I would have to disagree pretty strongly with that if only because the possibility of two Buster Swords was described precisely as such. =P

The notion of a flowerfield rendezvous was, frankly, always stupid because it ran counter to Aerith's own understanding that she's dead and isn't supposed to remain in the living world ... and because if she and Cloud could spiritually meet in a flowerfield anyway, they could do that from anywhere. Flowerfield in the real world not needed.

 

[RhinoKart]

The existence of the compilation feels like it has basically written the love triangle into a corner. Remake seems to like dropping all kinds of hints and nods to the compilation, which to me comes across as them hoping that a good portion of people playing remake will be familiar with AC, BC, CC, DoC. Writing Clerith as the definitive pairing in remake then would run the risk of having Cloud come across like a real jackass.

Because if we assume everyone who should be dead stays dead then following the love story from CC to remake we have Zack dying on his way back to Aerith, and dying to protect Cloud. Cloud arrives in town and reunites with his childhood crush Tifa, who has been shown to be thinking about/waiting for him (at least CC implies this in her teenage years, and you could argue some of this is characterization of her in remake as well). But then Cloud meets recently dead friend's GF and just throws away childhood crush to chase friend's women instead?

Then Aerith dies, so Cloud just moves on to Tifa like she was a second choice? Or he doesn't move on and uses Tifa as a bootycall/replacement GF for AC?

Like I get that Cloud doesn't remember Zack at this point in the remake, but in terms of story telling of a romance, this scenario feels like a potentially fan alienating choice to me.

Even if they went with making Clerith the main pairing up to her death (which you could easily argue is what happened in the OG), the backstory makes it feel super awkward now, where as when it was just the OG it was easy to ignore the Zack portion of the story, and imagine that Tifa wasn't waiting for Cloud prior to the start of the game.

Anyways, this isn't anything people on here haven't already touched on, and it's just my opinion but yeah, it feels like Cloti and Zerith need to be the main pairing in Remake to avoid negatively characterizing Cloud.

 

[billy22]

This is going to be over 1000 pages before part 2 comes out, isn't it

 

[looneymoon]

There was a brief period of time, before the Compilation, where the only depictions of the characters were the OG and AU cameos. It was during this time that people took Cloud's raison d'etre to be find the Promised Land and meet Aerith again. I personally never bought the "LTD was solved in the OG" line of thinking. So I don't think this interpretation wasn't a particularly groundless one, especially given that there are AU portrayals of the characters that sort of subtly validate that. It wasn't until AC came out and this was thoroughly debunked, imo. Still, that idea is something that has been something a large subset of fans held onto - hence I described it as adulterous flower rendezvous, more to be silly than anything =P

My point is that S-E seems to be opening a can of worms to allow for room in order for the original readings of the game to carry some weight again (or at least, allow them to thrive without invalidating them). This is inclusive of other things too - that maybe humanity did actually die out, etc. I get the impression this is done intentionally. I also think it can lead toward a really slippery slope if the story continues in reveling in its own postmodernism. I think there is a pretty distinct possibility that's exactly what's already happening, and may continue to - especially given the spirit of how the original game ended.

 

[Final_Heaven]

I definitely believe anything can happen in the romance subplot in the Remake, for both sides really ( devs keep saying they will not change much but part 1 ending kinda hints otherwise lol).

However, what I normally question myself is why would they? why now actually? For some time now they have been consistently cementing the OG pairings throughout the compilation, both in games and Ultimanias. It's not like they needed to do that, It was a choice. So, turning around now seems such a waste of time lol ( both ours and theirs). But who knows.

That said, While Zack's appearance opens a possibility for different timelines/different endings maybe? Which is a good thing for CxA ofc,
It kinda makes things more complicated in the LTD too, which Zack was never a part of due to the fact that he was dead, but if he's not anymore why does it means? At the end of the day, he was Aerith's lover and died trying to reach her, so we know his feelings for her were there. The same thing goes to Aerith, part 1 made sure to show that she's still not truly over him? So, if he's somewhat alive.. what would that mean to the LTD? Will it become a love square debate ( or LSD? ...okkk )? no conclusion here, I'm just throwing my drunk thoughts o /

It wouldn't be a love square. It'd just be two love triangles interconnected with each other. Cloud being the center of one and Aerith being the center of antoher one.

That said, I sort of agree with what's going that a video game critic said on a twitter thread:

keir hardie daytona : #ff7rspoilers so far Cloud is - nicer to Tifa than in the original, meaner to Aerith than in the original

Alex Donaldson(videogame critic): This is v. much Nojima shoring up the stuff he wrote in the AC ancillary books etc - that Cloud x Aerith was never romantic, just cheeky and flirty, and Tifa is the one for him.

Alex Donaldson: I think the remake is a chance to recontextualize bits of the Cloud/Aerith relationship in interesting ways & Nojima has been keen to do that. But I guess what'll be interesting is in the far future how 'far' they go with Cloud/Tifa, and how much they make it a player choice.

Alex Donaldson: By their own admission, it is left to player choice who Cloud "loves" in the original, but then in the compilation Nojima made clear his canon is that it's Tifa, because Aerith is Zack's. Which I've never personally aligned to, but I do love the Tifa scene outside the highwind.

 

[Final_Heaven]

So from my personally reading of Nojima and Nomura, Nojima wants Cloti and Nomura wants ambiguity.

So how far they push or explicitly canonize Cloti might be dependent on how much Nomura lets Nojima get away with.

Remember that two of the things that Nojima pushed for in the Remake are:

Aerith trying to sway Cloud away from her aka "Don't fall in love me and even if you think you have, it's not real." (which some of his staff tried to fight him on)

And pushing for Cloud to actually hug Tifa because "they're young".

 

[Eerie]

Eh, I don't think Cloud is especially mean to Aerith, you could be very mean to Aerith in the OG, people forget that because they usually are nice to her. And you could never be mean to Tifa in the OG either. It's just that in the Remake, the voice acting and the detailed characters make Cloud's puppy love for Tifa much more apparent IMHO.

For now, because the Midgar part of the OG was so short, I think the only thing (in scenario) that really changed is how Cloud gave the flower to Tifa. Before you had the choice to not give it to her, now you don't anymore. But I think everyone is wondering if the high Highwind scene affection is going to be up to the player's choice or not (fun to specualte about a game that won't be out before 10 years at least lol).

 

[Final_Heaven]

Eh, I don't think Cloud is especially mean to Aerith, you could be very mean to Aerith in the OG, people forget that because they usually are nice to her. And you could never be mean to Tifa in the OG either. It's just that in the Remake, the voice acting and the detailed characters make Cloud's puppy love for Tifa much more apparent IMHO.

For now, because the Midgar part of the OG was so short, I think the only thing (in scenario) that really changed is how Cloud gave the flower to Tifa. Before you had the choice to not give it to her, now you don't anymore. But I think everyone is wondering if the high Highwind scene affection is going to be up to the player's choice or not (fun to specualte about a game that won't be out before 10 years at least lol).

To be fair, that was another twitter user's reading of Cloud & Aerith's interactions and Cloud & Tifa's interactions in the first 3 chapters of the story. For the record, this person heavily ships Cloud and Aerith.

If they decide to kill Cloud at the end of the Remake, I can see them making the High Affection Highwind scene the only route so Tifa can have Cloud Jr. to remember him by.

 

[Eerie]

If they decide to kill Cloud at the end of the Remake, I can see them making the High Affection Highwind scene the only route so Tifa can have Cloud Jr. to remember him by.

Ew that's gross no thanks.

 

[Graymouse]

The existence of the compilation feels like it has basically written the love triangle into a corner. Remake seems to like dropping all kinds of hints and nods to the compilation, which to me comes across as them hoping that a good portion of people playing remake will be familiar with AC, BC, CC, DoC. Writing Clerith as the definitive pairing in remake then would run the risk of having Cloud come across like a real jackass.

Because if we assume everyone who should be dead stays dead then following the love story from CC to remake we have Zack dying on his way back to Aerith, and dying to protect Cloud. Cloud arrives in town and reunites with his childhood crush Tifa, who has been shown to be thinking about/waiting for him (at least CC implies this in her teenage years, and you could argue some of this is characterization of her in remake as well). But then Cloud meets recently dead friend's GF and just throws away childhood crush to chase friend's women instead?

Then Aerith dies, so Cloud just moves on to Tifa like she was a second choice? Or he doesn't move on and uses Tifa as a bootycall/replacement GF for AC?

Like I get that Cloud doesn't remember Zack at this point in the remake, but in terms of story telling of a romance, this scenario feels like a potentially fan alienating choice to me.

Even if they went with making Clerith the main pairing up to her death (which you could easily argue is what happened in the OG), the backstory makes it feel super awkward now, where as when it was just the OG it was easy to ignore the Zack portion of the story, and imagine that Tifa wasn't waiting for Cloud prior to the start of the game.

Anyways, this isn't anything people on here haven't already touched on, and it's just my opinion but yeah, it feels like Cloti and Zerith need to be the main pairing in Remake to avoid negatively characterizing Cloud.

I am probably going to sound very arrogant when I say this but, on that very premise of what you said here is one of the main reason, I just can't accept the Aerith and Cloud pairing up. (BTW, just because I said that doesn't mean that I won't listen to the other side of the LTD, I am not that closed minded) It just doesn't make any logical sense at all on the grand scheme of things. I am not however, going to sit here and tell you or try to prove to you otherwise, that Aerith and Cloud didn't have feelings for one another. That is just as senseless as the other. Even, if it was only for the brief month that they have known each other, there was some fondness there.

However, all the back story that we know of Tifa and Cloud, through all the mediums that we now have, that 1 month time period pales to compare to the amount of time that Tifa and Cloud spent with each other. 1 month just isn't enough time to have a meaningful relationship.

Playing the OG in 97' I always thought that the LTD debate was long dead. If you finish the game you know that Aerith dies. Which in of itself should of ended the love triangle at that very moment. However, SE has allowed it endure and become as toxic as it is today.

I know that I might be marginalizing or generalizing a group of Cloud X Aerith fans but for the most part when I search the internet for FF7 materials, I find that it is always the Cloud X Aerith to be the most obnoxious of the two when discussing the love triangle. I know that there are those that aren't that way especially the ones one this forums. In contrast most Cloud X Tifa groups will be mostly civil when it comes to this sort of thing. Don't get me wrong there are some that make the rest of us look really bad.

Sorry this wasn't suppose to be a post about how toxic one group is than the other. ごめんね ごめんね! I guess I just wanted to put my thoughts out here and I guess it could be considered a rant, but anyways, if I offended anyone lets discuss it.

 

[Final_Heaven]

Ew that's gross no thanks.

Just saying. It's a common anime cliche:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SomeoneToRememberHimBy

 

[Final_Heaven]

I am probably going to sound very arrogant when I say this but, on that very premise of what you said here is one of the main reason, I just can't accept the Aerith and Cloud pairing up. (BTW, just because I said that doesn't mean that I won't listen to the other side of the LTD, I am not that closed minded) It just doesn't make any logical sense at all on the grand scheme of things. I am not however, going to sit here and tell you or try to prove to you otherwise, that Aerith and Cloud didn't have feelings for one another. That is just as senseless as the other. Even, if it was only for the brief month that they have known each other, there was some fondness there.

However, all the back story that we know of Tifa and Cloud, through all the mediums that we now have, that 1 month time period pales to compare to the amount of time that Tifa and Cloud spent with each other. 1 month just isn't enough time to have a meaningful relationship.

Playing the OG in 97' I always thought that the LTD debate was long dead. If you finish the game you know that Aerith dies. Which in of itself should of ended the love triangle at that very moment. However, SE has allowed it endure and become as toxic as it is today.

I know that I might be marginalizing or generalizing a group of Cloud X Aerith fans but for the most part when I search the internet for FF7 materials, I find that it is always the Cloud X Aerith to be the most obnoxious of the two when discussing the love triangle. I know that there are those that aren't that way especially the ones one this forums. In contrast most Cloud X Tifa groups will be mostly civil when it comes to this sort of thing. Don't get me wrong there are some that make the rest of us look really bad.

Sorry this wasn't suppose to be a post about how toxic one group is than the other. ごめんね ごめんね! I guess I just wanted to put my thoughts out here and if I offended anyone lets discuss it.

It's just that most Cloti fans can accept that Cloud may have feelings for Aerith. Aerith is dead midway into the game anyway so it doesn't affect that he ends up with Tifa.

A lot of Clertih fans can't accept the Cloti pairing as valid because they see the Aerith x Cloud romance as one of true love and Cloud is never going to love again and stay true to Aerith until he dies at the age of 80 (and look, not even Aerith stayed true to Zack after 5 years when she was in an actual relationship with Zack for over a year whereas Cloud only knew Aerith for 2 months and they were never in a relationship). From what I've seen....if Cloud moves on with Tifa then that tears down their illusion of what Cloud x Aerith is.

Anyways, the OG did leave wiggle room in the LTD. Aerith x Cloud as an endgame couple is dead but there's 4 different interpretations that the OG can leave you with.

1) Cloud saw Aerith as a very important friend, she died, he used to be in love with Tifa and might move on with her but there's no definitive romance.

2) Cloud saw Aerith romantically, she died, he reclaimed his true identity and his true feelings for Tifa came back full force. High Affection Highwind happens and they move on together.

3) Cloud saw Aerith as an important friend, she died and he was only ever in real love with Tifa. High Affection Highwind scene happens. They move on together.

4) Cloud saw Aerith romantically, she died, he used to be in love with Tifa and might move with her in the end or he stays true to Aerith's spirit by being alone until he dies of old age. Forever chaste.

But the canon of the Compilation and the Ultimanias point that (2) or (3) is the true reading of the OG.

Although the Remake seems to be pointing at (2) rather than (3)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I know that I might be marginalizing or generalizing a group of Cloud X Aerith fans but for the most part when I search the internet for FF7 materials, I find that it is always the Cloud X Aerith to be the most obnoxious of the two when discussing the love triangle.

Obnoxious in different ways perhaps, but the assholery runs thick anywhere you step in this sewage.

 

[LNK]

If they decide to kill Cloud at the end of the Remake, I can see them making the High Affection Highwind scene the only route so Tifa can have Cloud Jr. to remember him by.

It wouldn't make sense to kill Cloud though. Cloud is alive in all other compilation media

 

[Graymouse]

It's just that most Cloti fans can accept that Cloud may have feelings for Aerith. Aerith is dead midway into the game anyway so it doesn't affect that he ends up with Tifa.

A lot of Clertih fans can't accept the Cloti pairing as valid because they see the Aerith x Cloud romance as one of true love and Cloud is never going to love again and stay true to Aerith until he dies at the age of 80 (and look, not even Aerith stayed true to Zack after 5 years when she was in an actual relationship with Zack for over a year whereas Cloud only knew Aerith for 2 months and they were never in a relationship). From what I've seen....if Cloud moves on with Tifa then that tears down their illusion of what Cloud x Aerith is.

Anyways, the OG did leave wiggle room in the LTD. Aerith x Cloud as an endgame couple is dead but there's 4 different interpretations that the OG can leave you with.

1) Cloud saw Aerith as a very important friend, she died, he used to be in love with Tifa and might move on with her but there's no definitive romance.

2) Cloud saw Aerith romantically, she died, he reclaimed his true identity and his true feelings for Tifa came back full force. High Affection Highwind happens and they move on together.

3) Cloud saw Aerith as an important friend, she died and he was only ever in real love with Tifa. High Affection Highwind scene happens. They move on together.

4) Cloud saw Aerith romantically, she died, he used to be in love with Tifa and might move with her in the end or he stays true to Aerith's spirit by being alone until he dies of old age. Forever chaste.

But the canon of the Compilation and the Ultimanias point that (2) or (3) is the true reading of the OG.

Although the Remake seems to be pointing at (2) rather than (3)

I would say that the Remake is pointing more towards (3) rather than (2) IMHO.'

Edited to add:

Honestly, I think people get confused with romance vs being attracted to someone. Believe it or not it can be two different things. I am not saying that attraction cannot lead to romance one day but they are not the same.

In the Remake, I do believe that Cloud was attracted to Aeritih. Especially in that exotic red dress of hers. However, I find it hard to believe that Cloud was romantically involved with Aerith in the Remake. If this makes any sense.

 

[Final_Heaven]

It wouldn't make sense to kill Cloud though. Cloud is alive in all other compilation media

It makes sense from a plot-perspective if Cloud is the thing that tethers Sephiroth to this world but doesn't make sense from a character-perspective for Cloud's journey in the Remake to end in his death.

IDK if they want Remake Cloud to have a different ending than AC Cloud.

I would say that the Remake is pointing more towards (3) rather than (2) IMHO.

Well, it depends on how true Aerith's lines are.

If Cloud's feelings for her really aren't real like she says then you're right, it's (3)

 

[Yumelinh]

If they decide to kill Cloud at the end of the Remake, I can see them making the High Affection Highwind scene the only route so Tifa can have Cloud Jr. to remember him by.

*Ragnarok anime ending flashbacks*.. thanks... I hate it!

Honestly, I think people get confused with romance vs being attracted to someone. Believe it or not it can be two different things. I am not saying that attraction cannot lead to romance one day but they are not the same.

We went on discussing this subject at the beginning of this thread and the conclusion we got is that it is hard to get into a consensus over this because people interpret love and attraction in different ways. Some see it as being the same thing while others see it as different things. So there's no such way of getting the right answer to that. And I say this as someone who agrees with your view.

That said, for me personally I think OG was definitely (2) from @Final_Heaven list. Feeling attracted to someone is still a way of seeing that person in a romantic way/with romantic intentions imo.

As for the Remake, I think for now is still (2), but Idk how much of my previous knowledge of OG may be affecting that ( I say that bc I've been seeing a lot of players w/ no knowledge from OG getting to conclusion (3) as per part 01 so idk I'm confused).

Double posting an lot of typos, sorry Im not so sober yeeeeetttt

 

[Maidenofwar]

Nojima wrote that Cloud and Aerith were lovers, and so far for this game people can say CxA isn't romantic or Cloud is mean to Aerith or whatever all they want but they wrote three segments of this game with romance in mind during CxA parts backed by official statements (Sector 6/route to Wall Market, park, Wall Market), Nojima also tweeted a photo of Cloud and Aerith figures and the victory statue, and Hamuguchi told a CxA person they would give them the perfect answer.

 

[Graymouse]

We went on discussing this subject at the beginning of this thread and the conclusion we got is that it is hard to get into a consensus over this because people interpret love and attraction in different ways. Some see it as being the same thing while others see it as different things. So there's no such way of getting the right answer to that. And I say this as someone who agrees with your view.

That said, for me personally I think OG was definitely (2) from @Final_Heaven list. Feeling attracted to someone is still a way of seeing that person in a romantic way/with romantic intentions imo.

As for the Remake, I think for now is still (2), but Idk how much of my previous knowledge of OG may be affecting that ( I say that bc I've been seeing a lot of players w/ no knowledge from OG getting to conclusion (3) as per part 01 so idk I'm confused).

Double posting an lot of typos, sorry Im not so sober yeeeeetttt

If we are talking about the OG, I agree 100% that (2) is the case. However, if we are talking about the Remake, and what we have learned up this point story wise, I can see that it could be (3) with room to move to (2) as the storyline progress. So, who knows?

However, Like @Final_Heaven mentioned before, the CH14 resolution with Aerith seems to have her character begin to push away from Cloud. Whether or not that will have an effect on Cloud remains to be seen.

Just through RL experience, normally when a women tells a man to not fall in love with her, it is pretty much is just a nice way of saying that I like who you are but I don't want to have a romantic relationship with you. Although, and it should be said as well. That Aerith, knowing what her future holds is saying that to Cloud to protect him, is a valid counter argument as well.

 

[LNK]

It makes sense from a plot-perspective if Cloud is the thing that tethers Sephiroth

I agree, but the compilation is canon to the remake. If Cloud dies at the end of remake, then how could he be alive in AC, OTWTAS, and DoC?

 

[Graymouse]

Nojima wrote that Cloud and Aerith were lovers, and so far for this game people can say CxA isn't romantic or Cloud is mean to Aerith or whatever all they want but they wrote three segments of this game with romance in mind during CxA parts backed by official statements (Sector 6/route to Wall Market, park, Wall Market), Nojima also tweeted a photo of Cloud and Aerith figures and the victory statue, and Hamuguchi told a CxA person they would give them the perfect answer.

So, for this I might have to go down the rabbit hole. I do believe that this is bad translation. Here is the question that I have.

Why is it when koibito is translated for Tifa it's "oh it's actually sweetheart" but when koibito, the SAME word is translated for Aertith all of a sudden it means, "OMG THEY WERE LOVERS!!" You can't have it both ways.

Nojima, never said that they were lovers. It is a bad translation.

 

[Maidenofwar]

As far as I'm concerned it's romantic for both of them.

**

“There is a scene where Cloud and Aerith walk while looking at the night sky in front of the Suzuki Cave Road, but it's a very romantic and nice atmosphere”

~ Mitsuto Suzuki | Composer

I think the park scene and Wall Market statements were already discussed here but there is also this.

 

[Yumelinh]

It wasn't a bad translation per se. It that context it just meant Aerith liked Cloud as per her point of view and not that they were in a relationship or something (bc well they weren't). But then again.. I don't speak Japanese so I just went by what good people who do have explained to me

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

... Nojima also tweeted a photo of Cloud and Aerith figures and the victory statue, and Hamuguchi told a CxA person they would give them the perfect answer.

Oh, do share, please.

 

[null]

Aaaaaah, how'd the koibito get in here? Who kicked the salt on the floor?