SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[MasterMoogle]

Certainly how most folks would describe the death of a friend.



I must be in some special kind of a mood this morning, because I can't ignore this irrelevant, diminishing observation this time. I have twice experienced sudden, harsh, unfair circumstance cutting short the potential of something new and exciting after only three-ish weeks, and I still carry them with me every day, five and two years later respectively. So whatever other "Clerithy" notions aside, I know full well the versimilitude of the notion under the microscope here.

You underestimate the private emotional resonance of new relationship energy combined with a lack of closure. It's like a moment frozen in time inside you, where the natural way of things is that they change with time. Since this can't, though, you're left with an unmoving iceberg on the sea of your own psychological continuity.



... "Koibito"?



There absolutely is. For examples of bad faith, see: character assassination; selective acknowledgement; or, as is most relevant to the current state of the discussion, engaging in the LTD while claiming that the "L" doesn't apply to one of the participant's feelings.



Putting aside whether it's romantic, he fulfills her request to get her out of the church and later rereferences being her bodyguard himself. He absolutely agreed.


Kitase: "And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new."

1) I was talking about from the perspective of the audience and the LTD.
2) Generally not a good idea to bring up personal anecdotes during a debate. It invites drama. I'll simply respond with Cloud's guilt does not equate to love. Although it wouldn't surprise me if Cloud and/or the audience confuses his guilt for romantic love. It never occurs to people, but it can actually be the "lack of closure" which is generating the emotions, not the actual memories of the person. That's not a comment on your anecdote.
3) Cloud was never Aerith's "koibito" in that sense, and Nojima probably didn't mean it as such.
4) All these things are worth debating.
5) Yes, Cloud cares for her safety. That's not being disputed.
6) Would Cloud be wavering between them if he didn't have memory issues? I'm sorry, but you can't compare what Cloud and Aerith have to all the history between Cloud and Tifa. This is made evident by the Gold Saucer date between Cloud and Aerith.

There's a lot of misunderstanding regarding Aerith's role in Cloud's story. Disregarding her role in the overarching story, her role in Cloud's story is simply to function as a source of guilt. She's not there to "open him up." The memories they share are not relevant to Cloud's story, nor are they the source of Cloud's emotions for her. Cloud never mentions their Gold Saucer date. Cloud never mentions their time traveling together. The only thing Cloud ever references is her sacrifice and his failure to save her.

I must suck at explaining things, and I apologise for that, but the continuity of "I'm coming for you" *Aerith is happy Cloud is coming for her*> "You came for me" "Yep" *Cloud and Aerith are having a moment* *the focus is on them* *the moment continues** *Aerith is happy* *Aerith skips forward to Cloud* *they are interrupted* *focus shifts to the group* is still something that was intentional. If anything FFVIIR expands on "Cloud … so you did come for me …" from the OG as far as Hojo's room is concerned.

Wrong. Skip to 1:10. The focus is on both Cloud and Tifa, and then the focus shifts to Tifa. In fact, she's not even specifically talking to Cloud when she says "you came for me."

 

[minami758]

That Hojo lab scene is interesting. I saw some people shitting on Tifa when she runs up and asks Aerith if she's okay.

Like, Tifa is damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. A popular streamer ranted about how Aerith cares way more about Tifa than Tifa cares about Aerith, using the Elmyra scene as proof. In that scene, Tifa wants to respect Elmyra's wishes - she's Aerith's mother, the person who loves Aerith most in the world and who Tifa would assume knows better than them. But apparently that means Tifa doesn't care about saving Aerith from Shinra.

And once they do save Aerith, Tifa wants to see if she's okay but she's shit on again for "interrupting" Cloud and Aerith. I don't see how she can win with these types of people.

 

[odekopeko]

I must suck at explaining things, and I apologise for that, but the continuity of "I'm coming for you" *Aerith is happy Cloud is coming for her*> "You came for me" "Yep" *Cloud and Aerith are having a moment* *the focus is on them* *the moment continues** *Aerith is happy* *Aerith skips forward to Cloud* *they are interrupted* *focus shifts to the group* is still something that was intentional. If anything FFVIIR expands on "Cloud … so you did come for me …" from the OG as far as Hojo's room is concerned.

The "they are interrupted" part kinda bothers me. Because what exactly do people they were interrupted from?

 

[Master Bates]

Cloud agreed to be Aerith's bodyguard in exchange for a DATE (granted he didn't agree expressly, but it was implied by him not showing dissent and his subsequent actions). That should already qualify the intention behind the agreement romantic.

Cloti is my horse in this race, and I believe they are the answer to this LTD due to preponderance of evidence. But let's not try to dismiss CA moments as non-romantic when they are obviously intended to be otherwise. There is wiggle room to argue the nature of Cloud's feelings for Aerith, but it can't be denied that there are certain scenes that Cloud and Aerith have which are clearly made for a romantic purpose and with romantic intent. The bodyguard thing and "I'm coming for you" moment being romantic aren't really conclusive indications of the feelings of the characters involved, but they do inform us of the tone and nature of those scenes.

 

[Maidenofwar]

It's not "Wrong" MasterMoogle.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Cloud agreed to be Aerith's bodyguard in exchange for a DATE (granted he didn't agree expressly, but it was implied by him not showing dissent and his subsequent actions). That should already qualify the intention behind the agreement romantic.

Cloti is my horse in this race, and I believe they are the answer to this LTD due to preponderance of evidence. But let's not try to dismiss CA moments as non-romantic when they are obviously intended to be otherwise. There is wiggle room to argue the nature of Cloud's feelings for Aerith, but it can't be denied that there are certain scenes that Cloud and Aerith have which are clearly made for a romantic purpose and with romantic intent. The bodyguard thing and "I'm coming for you" moment being romantic aren't really conclusive indications of the feelings of the characters involved, but they do inform us of the tone and nature of those scenes.

No, he didn't agree to be her bodyguard AT ALL, and certainly not in exchange for a date. He simply went along with it, and then retroactively accepted it as the nature of their partnership. He later cared enough about her to rescue her from Shinra.

It's not "Wrong" MasterMoogle.

Well, please offer me a timestamp where the focus is on Cloud and Aerith, because even the cinematography of the scene doesn't focus on solely Cloud in that scene.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Personal anectdotes are neutral ground as far I'm concerned. Some people like Tres here find that "meeting someone, having a short but intense relationship just for it to end suddenly and without feelings of closure" scenario resonates with them more. The whole "we knew each other since we were children, lost contact and we were reunited and later we started a relationship" resonates with others more.

YMMV, different strokes for different folks and all that.

 

[Master Bates]

No, he didn't agree to be her bodyguard AT ALL, and certainly not in exchange for a date. He simply went along with it, and then retroactively accepted it as the nature of their partnership. He later cared enough about her to rescue her from Shinra.

Have you ever heard of "implied consent"? Consent which can be inferred thru actions? Because they are a thing, you know. It's even a concept in law.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Have you ever heard of "implied consent"? Consent which can be inferred thru actions? Because they are a thing, you know. It's even a concept in law.

So in other words, he didn't agree to her terms, he just went along with it with no concern for how he was going to be compensated. That's what I said. This is of course made evident by the fact that he never once mentions the date.

 

[Sasseli]

I have to agree on the "You came for me". With MasterMoogle, I mean. Especially after watching it several times just now.
When Aerith says that, she stands right in the middle between Cloud and Tifa and clearly addresses both, because she doesn't look to anybody in particular. Cloud's "Yup." is totally nonchalant and right after Tifa asks if she's okay. Twice even. I have the heavy impression they focus much more about the relationship between Tifa and Aerith than Cloud and Aerith in this game.


Now even the law is brought up... Boy oh boy... is there no end to the ridiculousness concerning this topic?

Can't we just appreciate that there are indeed some kind of feelings going on between Cloud and Aerith? We can still argue about specific scenes without dismissing everything concerning them, shipping-wise.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Can't we just appreciate that there are indeed some kind of feelings going on between Cloud and Aerith? We can still argue about specific scenes without dismissing everything concerning them, shipping-wise.

I acknowledged that Cloud and Aerith had a shippy moment a couple posts back, but the "bodyguard deal" just isn't one of them.

Aerith is being playful, and Cloud is simply going with the flow. That is the extent to which the deal reaches.

 

[minami758]

It's not "Wrong" MasterMoogle.

Well, please offer me a timestamp where the focus is on Cloud and Aerith, because even the cinematography of the scene doesn't focus on solely Cloud in that scene.

When Aerith says that, she stands right in the middle between Cloud and Tifa and clearly addresses both, because she doesn't look to anybody in particular. Cloud's "Yup." is totally nonchalant and right after Tifa asks if she's okay. Twice even. I have the heavy impression they focus much more about the relationship between Tifa and Aerith than Cloud and Aerith in this game.

If we wanna find a middle ground regarding that scene, I can say that I agree with @Maidenofwar that the "You came for me" has special connotations for Clerith fans who know the story of the OG, and it can be considered part of Cloud and Aerith's motif.

On the other hand, for anyone who's not really familiar with the OG or isn't really a shipper, that scene doesn't have romantic undertones because of Tifa being in the frame and the cinematography, so it can also be seen as friends helping their other friend out of a shitty situation.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I mean if people want to take all the CxA things post c14 away from people that's fine, unfortunately people will do the same for CxT, and there will be essays to the effect for both pairs.

Edit- 1.26-1.30

After the fight, Cloud and Aerith's focus is on each other.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Generally not a good idea to bring up personal anecdotes during a debate.

Generally not a good idea to cite a source whose observations refute your claim when speaking for themselves, and to then ignore that source when they say you're wrong. =P

Let us not pretend you weren't trying to speak to a general notion of "how people actually work" when bringing up the three-weeks thing. I really am going to insist you practice good faith discussion.

Anyway, we all know that's what you were attempting to speak to: how people actually work. Yet here's a real person telling you that you got how I work wrong -- and I'm not nearly so vain as to think I'm unique in this way.

I'm not going to insist, though, that everyone works the same either. Perhaps we could all do that.

Cloud was never Aerith's "koibito" in that sense, and Nojima probably didn't mean it as such.

So, the word doesn't mean Aerith had romantic feelings for Cloud (i.e. it doesn't mean ... what it means) in this particular instance ... because it would make you wrong? =|

Is it not a lot more likely a possibility that you're just wrong?

All these things are worth debating.

I have no idea what this is in response to, but debating any of this is probably as worthwhile as slamming one's own cock in a car door.

Yes, Cloud cares for her safety. That's not being disputed.

That's not a point I was making either, so ...

Would Cloud be wavering between them if he didn't have memory issues?

Who knows? More importantly, who cares? You suggested the developers may not have even intended a notion of wavering in the first place.

Again, I'm going to have to insist you start debating in good faith and practicing intellectual honesty.

I'm sorry, but you can't compare what Cloud and Aerith have to all the history between Cloud and Tifa.

My list of "Points I Wasn't Making That You Insist On Responding To" is getting long.

There's a lot of misunderstanding regarding Aerith's role in Cloud's story. Disregarding her role in the overarching story, her role in Cloud's story is simply to function as a source of guilt.

Really, that was her only intended purpose in Cloud's story?

A subject that didn't come up until the sequel released eight years later? A sequel the developers had no idea they would be making?

 

[youffie]

A popular streamer ranted about how Aerith cares way more about Tifa than Tifa cares about Aerith, using the Elmyra scene as proof.

This is funny to me because I’ve seen it argued that in the OG Tifa cared more about Aerith than Aerith cared about Tifa, because Tifa had more nice lines about her while Aerith didn't really acknowledge her as much.

And it's funny how the LTD discourse seems to have shifted these days, while still remaining fundamentally the same. The slightly dismissive tone that I’ve seen towards Cloud and Aerith in this new thread sometimes reminds me of the times where the same thing happened much more frequently with Cloud and Tifa – I think some other people have mentioned this as well. The convoluted explanations as to why Tifa was in Cloud’s room at night asking him about love in Case of Tifa have not aged well, and I'm afraid this won’t age well either. Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct answer.

Also, general consideration: while it can be frustrating for some, which I totally get and respect, the ambiguity in the OG is what made FFVII a masterpiece for some people, and not just for what concerns the silly LTD, of course. Expansion and even clarification can be great, but whatever was there in the unsaid is a loss that I will forever mourn.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Oh, just what the world needs. More shipping essays.
I'm going to draw porn of every possible combination of characters, with increasing weirdness, for every new essay that comes into existence. Someone has to instill fear into the hearts of the shippers of this fandom.

 

[Master Bates]

So in other words, he didn't agree to her terms, he just went along with it with no concern for how he was going to be compensated. That's what I said. This is of course made evident by the fact that he never once mentions the date.

You're nitpicking. Either way, the agreement happened. Cloud agreed to the general agreement thru implied consent, which also includes agreeing to the terms and conditions of the agreement by necessary implication (and by Cloud's non-dissent). The agreement, preceded by a meet-cute, was made with playful romantic connotations. It is a "shippy" moment.

 

[youffie]

Oh, just what the world needs. More shipping essays.
I'm going to draw porn of every possible combination of characters, with increasing weirdness, for every new essay that comes into existence. Someone has to instill fear in the hearts of the shippers of this fandom.

Not the hero that we deserve, but the hero that we need

 

[minami758]

This is funny to me because I’ve seen it argued that in the OG Tifa cared more about Aerith than Aerith cared about Tifa, because Tifa had more nice lines about her while Aerith didn't really acknowledge her as much.

Aerith's characterization is something interesting to be discussed in the Remake, particularly given that I think she oscillates between being really well-written and also somewhat of an exposition dumper when needed. Like, Chapter 17 Aerith and beyond (as well as dream Aerith in the resolution) is not the same as earlier chapters-Aerith.

That said, I am glad they toned down the selfishness, in a sense. Not that selfishness is a bad trait in a character, but if there's any ship that's winning this war, it's Aerith/Tifa, and that's because we've all moved past a time where it was a must for women to fight over a man in media.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Cloud agreed to be Aerith's bodyguard in exchange for a DATE (granted he didn't agree expressly, but it was implied by him not showing dissent and his subsequent actions). That should already qualify the intention behind the agreement romantic.

Cloti is my horse in this race, and I believe they are the answer to this LTD due to preponderance of evidence. But let's not try to dismiss CA moments as non-romantic when they are obviously intended to be otherwise. There is wiggle room to argue the nature of Cloud's feelings for Aerith, but it can't be denied that there are certain scenes that Cloud and Aerith have which are clearly made for a romantic purpose and with romantic intent. The bodyguard thing and "I'm coming for you" moment being romantic aren't really conclusive indications of the feelings of the characters involved, but they do inform us of the tone and nature of those scenes.

I 100% agree with that, I'm always on team "Cloud had feelings for both chicks" but yeah, I still think that after chapter 14 all romantic interaction between Cloud and Aerith stops. That's the genuine feeling I get from their interactions and I'm not really sure why the devs went for that

 

[LNK]

the ambiguity in the OG is what made FFVII a masterpiece for some people, and not just for what concerns the silly LTD, of course.

That's what I liked about the OG. While I'm a C/T fan, it is cool that C/A could've been possible, if she hadn't died.

 

[Maidenofwar]

@Purple for the highway scene it's after the team destroys the helicopter, Cloud and Aerith have a "You good?" "Somehow" exchange , similar to another moment from earlier in the game where Cloud asks "You okay" and Aerith replies with "All good! … I think"

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Personal anectdotes are neutral ground as far I'm concerned. Some people like Tres here find that "meeting someone, having a short but intense relationship just for it to end suddenly and without feelings of closure" scenario resonates with them more. The whole "we knew each other since we were children, lost contact and we were reunited and later we started a relationship" resonates with others more.

YMMV, different strokes for different folks and all that.

I didn't say anything about either scenario resonating more. I was just correcting our species's self-appointed spokesman that one of those things doesn't resonate with validity at all.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I've changed my mind. Personal anectotes make people weirdly defensive.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I've changed my mind. Personal anectotes make people weirdly defensive.

Is wanting one's sentiments to be accurately represented defensive (weirdly or otherwise)?