SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
I think people are looking into the date proposals way too much 
Yes, all of them were different, but I'm pretty sure none of them were there to be seen in a bad light, but more as a showcase of Cloud's relationship with each girl.
If I had to go there and make a shipping argument here regarding the dates in favor of Cloti, I would say that having Cloud instantly agreeing to their date was definitely a good sign and shows how easily they tend to feel comfortable with each other. And while yes, it can lead to something romantic, but honestly it would be more like two people that were just reunited again spending quality time together.
As for Aerith, again, it just shows their relationship as well aka Aerith dictating things and Cloud going along with it lol XD He may not have agreed verbally (bc they just met), but he sure didn't mind when she said she was already "paying" his date, but again, why would he mind? It could lead to something romantic if they wanted in the future sure, but right there they were two people that just met spending time together and helping people out.
As for Jessie, he just flat out doesn't how to deal with her lol It's delightful to watch!
Yes, all of them were different, but I'm pretty sure none of them were there to be seen in a bad light, but more as a showcase of Cloud's relationship with each girl.
If I had to go there and make a shipping argument here regarding the dates in favor of Cloti, I would say that having Cloud instantly agreeing to their date was definitely a good sign and shows how easily they tend to feel comfortable with each other. And while yes, it can lead to something romantic, but honestly it would be more like two people that were just reunited again spending quality time together.
As for Aerith, again, it just shows their relationship as well aka Aerith dictating things and Cloud going along with it lol XD He may not have agreed verbally (bc they just met), but he sure didn't mind when she said she was already "paying" his date, but again, why would he mind? It could lead to something romantic if they wanted in the future sure, but right there they were two people that just met spending time together and helping people out.
As for Jessie, he just flat out doesn't how to deal with her lol It's delightful to watch!
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MasterMoogle
Pro Adventurer
As for Jessie, he just flat out doesn't how to deal with her lol It's delightful to watch!
Here's a question though, does that date agreement between Cloud and Jessie forshadow her return in a future installment?
Master Bates
Do you enjoy your life?
- AKA
- Mr. Koiwai
Nojima: So Nomura-san, how many dates do you want to have for Cloud?
Nomura: Yes.
Nomura: Yes.
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
I would bet no, but after that ending... who knows?
but if she survived then no one who matters actually died when the plate felt...
Edit: Scratch that! TWO of Wedge's cats died there. THEY MATTER!!!
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
I think people are looking into the date proposals way too much
Yes, all of them were different, but I'm pretty sure none of them were there to be seen in a bad light, but more as a showcase of Cloud's relationship with each girl.
Yeah, that's really it. Those exchanges highlight each woman's personality and how Cloud's interactions with them tend to go.
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
-and boys. Roche is right there being poetic as a fuck and Cloud is like ?????¿¿¿¿¿¿????? most of the time
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
That is poetic indeed.
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
lolI was gonna fix this but you know what? it looks better like this xD
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Elyssis
Lv. 1 Adventurer
Sorry if this has already been discussed in this thread (it's a lot to comb through), but I think it's interesting that when the player gets to blatantly make a choice between Tifa and Aerith in the sewers, choosing Tifa results in a conversation that seems to push Clerith, while choosing Aerith does not result in any mention of Tifa.
It's also interesting to note that in the resolution scenes (which are the culmination of the affection points), Tifa brings up Aerith in a manner that seems to push Clerith while Aerith does not bring up Tifa in hers.
I am of the opinion that both Tifa and Aerith have romantic feelings for Cloud and Cloud has romantic feelings for both in return, but that the first episode of the remake favors Clerith. Later episodes may very well favor Cloti, given that Cloti's strongest moments come later in the OG story.
Another point that I think should be considered is that the remake has introduced the possibility of Aerith surviving this time around and that could really change things up. It's also possible that Cloud will die at the end of the remake since it's his existence that allows Sephiroth to keep returning from the Lifestream (I took this as the reason why Sephiroth said he didn't want Cloud to die in Chapter 18 at the edge of creation).
Another point that I think should be considered is that the remake has introduced the possibility of Aerith surviving this time around and that could really change things up. It's also possible that Cloud will die at the end of the remake since it's his existence that allows Sephiroth to keep returning from the Lifestream (I took this as the reason why Sephiroth said he didn't want Cloud to die in Chapter 18 at the edge of creation).
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Eh, I don't think either pairing was pushed further than the other, to be honest, they made a point in making sure both had equal quality time.
In French, the sewers scene goes as follows (and I've heard it follows more closely the JP):
Tifa: "Poor Aerith. We drag her in our wake."
Cloud: "She will understand."
Tifa: "How did you get to know her?"
Cloud: "I first helped her, and after... we helped each other in our turn."
Tifa: "Mmh? What do you mean?"
*Aerith wakes up*
So I don't see jealousy, but worry for an innocent being dragged into an eco-terrorist organisation. It doesn't really push clerith, but furthers Tifa's characterisation of not wanting to drag innocents in their fight.
There's no difference for ch14, but I don't see how this pushes clerith, knowing that it's the only scene out of the 3 where you see real!Cloud surfacing, but also that he really wanted to comfort Tifa and that this has lasted over 3 chapters? Tifa's way of bringing the flower shows that she was still worried for him and looked up the meaning, and saw that it was "reunion" so she put her hopes into it, that they would see each other again (which is furthered later on when she gives hope back to Leslie). In the end, it did not matter that the flower came from Aerith, it lasted exactly one sentence and while she was hurt he lied to her, there were much bigger hurdles in her mind - the loss of her friends and the bar, namely, her newfound home.
I honestly wouldn't bet on Cloud being killed or Aerith surviving. IMHO this is going to follow the OG, which is a story about life and death and getting over loss. Aerith's narrative arc whithin the OG ends with her death. Yes, we know she helps from the Lifestream afterwards, but as to feel her loss, she isn't shown at all anymore (although I am sure this time around we may get flashbacks! And maybe Aerith in the Lifestream, but I wouldn't bet on it either). That's it. Narratively, Tifa's story arc takes on from this point, because she is tied to Cloud arc's so intimely, that you cannot have anyone else help him going through his breakdown. Because, as he says so himself, only her opinion matters. I find it especially fascinating, when you think about it, that it was at first one heroine who was split in two, and whose roles were carefully crafted to apply to the overarching story for one, and to Cloud's story for the other. And they are not interchangeable. Because the story is written this way and the LTD follows a strict narrative which already had its conclusion more than 2 decades ago, yet here we are lol. But yes, since the devs have said that they are going to follow the story beats and that it will not change drastically, I do expect that by the end, Aerith will be dead, and Cloud and Tifa will be together.
In French, the sewers scene goes as follows (and I've heard it follows more closely the JP):
Tifa: "Poor Aerith. We drag her in our wake."
Cloud: "She will understand."
Tifa: "How did you get to know her?"
Cloud: "I first helped her, and after... we helped each other in our turn."
Tifa: "Mmh? What do you mean?"
*Aerith wakes up*
So I don't see jealousy, but worry for an innocent being dragged into an eco-terrorist organisation. It doesn't really push clerith, but furthers Tifa's characterisation of not wanting to drag innocents in their fight.
There's no difference for ch14, but I don't see how this pushes clerith, knowing that it's the only scene out of the 3 where you see real!Cloud surfacing, but also that he really wanted to comfort Tifa and that this has lasted over 3 chapters? Tifa's way of bringing the flower shows that she was still worried for him and looked up the meaning, and saw that it was "reunion" so she put her hopes into it, that they would see each other again (which is furthered later on when she gives hope back to Leslie). In the end, it did not matter that the flower came from Aerith, it lasted exactly one sentence and while she was hurt he lied to her, there were much bigger hurdles in her mind - the loss of her friends and the bar, namely, her newfound home.
I honestly wouldn't bet on Cloud being killed or Aerith surviving. IMHO this is going to follow the OG, which is a story about life and death and getting over loss. Aerith's narrative arc whithin the OG ends with her death. Yes, we know she helps from the Lifestream afterwards, but as to feel her loss, she isn't shown at all anymore (although I am sure this time around we may get flashbacks! And maybe Aerith in the Lifestream, but I wouldn't bet on it either). That's it. Narratively, Tifa's story arc takes on from this point, because she is tied to Cloud arc's so intimely, that you cannot have anyone else help him going through his breakdown. Because, as he says so himself, only her opinion matters. I find it especially fascinating, when you think about it, that it was at first one heroine who was split in two, and whose roles were carefully crafted to apply to the overarching story for one, and to Cloud's story for the other. And they are not interchangeable. Because the story is written this way and the LTD follows a strict narrative which already had its conclusion more than 2 decades ago, yet here we are lol. But yes, since the devs have said that they are going to follow the story beats and that it will not change drastically, I do expect that by the end, Aerith will be dead, and Cloud and Tifa will be together.
odekopeko
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Peko
Sorry, but weren't they both were curious about the other girl? Even Aerith kept asking Cloud about whom he gave the flower to, and if Tifa was his girlfriend because he said her name out of nowhere?
I don't see this is pushing Clerith or Cloti. I saw this as making us know both girls are romantically interested in Cloud. But not a definitive moment showing us that Cloud likes anyone more than the other. He was ambiguous and awkward in answering about his relationship with both women when questioned by them.
Edit to say: I meant evasive not ambiguous
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Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
I see that you are a new member, so welcome @Elyssis!
Good points btw o/ I'll try to give you my view os them.
It's good to notice that Tifa questioning who's Aerith isn't unreasonable at all at that moment(in jp she actually asks if they can trust her instead of "something is going on" as far as I know, but I don't think it changes the outcome that much in the end) and it goes in hand with Aerith's ((albeit more blatant) question back in sector 5 when Cloud mentions Tifa. I guess it shows that somehow both girls are interested in sorting Cloud's relationship with the other one.
I don't think Tifa mentioning Aerith in her resolution scene was a push for C/A. Yes, she seems disappointed that Cloud didn't buy the flower himself for her and made the connection he got it from Aerith, but how is it somehow a push for Clerith? In fact, we saw how the whole scene where Cloud got the flower played out and the implications behind said flower that Cloud, nonetheless, decided to give to Tifa. At this point, we know more than she does to extract the right implications for this scene, even if she herself doesn't.
That's...debatable?! XD I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I'm pretty happy with what Cloud and Tifa got from part 1 because, as you said yourself, their strongest moments are later on in the game. I personally believe that part 1 has built up a good ground from both ships, and this alone is already a good thing for C/T since that's not how things went in OG at this part ( which is more C/A centric).
Aerith's surviving is a huge possibility indeed. Even tho the devs said they will not drastically change the story that ending did open the possibilities for more characters surviving, but Cloud dying would be.. too much of a change?! I don't think (more like hope) they don't go there.
Edit: ah, took my sweet time writing this down so I didn't see you got two answers prior to this, feel free to ignore this one //
Good points btw o/ I'll try to give you my view os them.
It's good to notice that Tifa questioning who's Aerith isn't unreasonable at all at that moment(in jp she actually asks if they can trust her instead of "something is going on" as far as I know, but I don't think it changes the outcome that much in the end) and it goes in hand with Aerith's ((albeit more blatant) question back in sector 5 when Cloud mentions Tifa. I guess it shows that somehow both girls are interested in sorting Cloud's relationship with the other one.
I don't think Tifa mentioning Aerith in her resolution scene was a push for C/A. Yes, she seems disappointed that Cloud didn't buy the flower himself for her and made the connection he got it from Aerith, but how is it somehow a push for Clerith? In fact, we saw how the whole scene where Cloud got the flower played out and the implications behind said flower that Cloud, nonetheless, decided to give to Tifa. At this point, we know more than she does to extract the right implications for this scene, even if she herself doesn't.
That's...debatable?! XD I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I'm pretty happy with what Cloud and Tifa got from part 1 because, as you said yourself, their strongest moments are later on in the game. I personally believe that part 1 has built up a good ground from both ships, and this alone is already a good thing for C/T since that's not how things went in OG at this part ( which is more C/A centric).
Aerith's surviving is a huge possibility indeed. Even tho the devs said they will not drastically change the story that ending did open the possibilities for more characters surviving, but Cloud dying would be.. too much of a change?! I don't think (more like hope) they don't go there.
Edit: ah, took my sweet time writing this down so I didn't see you got two answers prior to this, feel free to ignore this one //
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Final_Heaven
Pro Adventurer
Sorry if this has already been discussed in this thread (it's a lot to comb through), but I think it's interesting that when the player gets to blatantly make a choice between Tifa and Aerith in the sewers, choosing Tifa results in a conversation that seems to push Clerith, while choosing Aerith does not result in any mention of Tifa.
It's also interesting to note that in the resolution scenes (which are the culmination of the affection points), Tifa brings up Aerith in a manner that seems to push Clerith while Aerith does not bring up Tifa in hers.
I am of the opinion that both Tifa and Aerith have romantic feelings for Cloud and Cloud has romantic feelings for both in return, but that the first episode of the remake favors Clerith. Later episodes may very well favor Cloti, given that Cloti's strongest moments come later in the OG story.
Another point that I think should be considered is that the remake has introduced the possibility of Aerith surviving this time around and that could really change things up. It's also possible that Cloud will die at the end of the remake since it's his existence that allows Sephiroth to keep returning from the Lifestream (I took this as the reason why Sephiroth said he didn't want Cloud to die in Chapter 18 at the edge of creation).
I was told that in the first interaction, that's not what Tifa says in Japanese. I was actually told that Tifa is asking if she and Cloud could trust Aerith and this later plays into how Tifa can sense that Aerith isn't telling them something.
I don't see how Tifa's Resolution pushes Clerith more considering that Cloud actually hugged Tifa tightly which is less of a big deal internationally but way more of a big deal in Japan.
On top of that, while Aerith's Resolution doesn't bring up Tifa, it does sink a romance between Cloud and Aerith if we take Aerith at face value:
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RhinoKart
Pro Adventurer
Just popping in to point out that Barret's resolution scene (what I would have considered the neutral scene for not favouring either Aerith or Tifa) bothers to include Cloud getting jealous of some other guy offering Tifa flowers.
So just because Aerith is brought up in Tifa's scene, I don't think we can conclude that chapter 14 was pushing Clerith.
At best if you watch all 3 scenes we can conclude that we are suppossed to be aware that Cloud doesn't want other guys flirting with Tifa, Tifa thinks there might be something more going on with Cloud and Aerith, Cloud wants to comfort Tifa, Aerith doesn't want Cloud to fall in love with her, and Cloud thinks Aerith is being unfair in deciding things for him. In summery, everyone's romantic relationship is currently a mess. The only happy one is with Barret who is drama free and having great Bro time together.
So just because Aerith is brought up in Tifa's scene, I don't think we can conclude that chapter 14 was pushing Clerith.
At best if you watch all 3 scenes we can conclude that we are suppossed to be aware that Cloud doesn't want other guys flirting with Tifa, Tifa thinks there might be something more going on with Cloud and Aerith, Cloud wants to comfort Tifa, Aerith doesn't want Cloud to fall in love with her, and Cloud thinks Aerith is being unfair in deciding things for him. In summery, everyone's romantic relationship is currently a mess. The only happy one is with Barret who is drama free and having great Bro time together.
Final_Heaven
Pro Adventurer
Elyssis
Lv. 1 Adventurer
I am so sorry my response is so long, I can't seem to be concise to save my life lol 
I agree that both Aerith and Tifa had quality time with Cloud, however, there are things that seem to favor Clerith. For example, Aerith being brought up in two of Tifa’s optional scenes with Cloud while the reverse isn’t true, SE choosing to depict Cloud and Aerith’s resolution scene in the end credits over Cloud and Tifa’s resolution scene, Cloud basically confirming romantic feelings for Aerith in Aerith’s resolution scene and not doing the same with Tifa, the main theme song being about Cloud’s feelings for Aerith, etc. Again though, it’s quite possible that SE will favor Cloti in later episodes and that this favor for Clerith is only because they want to players to become attached to Aerith before she dies.
I looked at the original Japanese text for the sewer scene:
To the best of my (admittedly limited) understanding, the only difference from the English conversation is instead of asking “Sure there isn’t something else going on?”, she asks if Cloud “ごまかしてない” This is what I have found for translations:
Tifa is asking if Cloud is hiding something about how he knows Aerith and why she is helping them. Cloud doesn’t answer and looks to the side. I believe the context is essentially the same, intimating that Tifa thinks there is something more going on between Cloud and Aerith than Cloud is telling her. I see this part as separate from Tifa’s desire not to get an innocent civilian involved in their fight (which was the initial part of the conversation). If someone more proficient in Japanese believes this to be wrong, please let me know.
I looked at the original Japanese text for the sewer scene:
I bring up that particular portion of Tifa’s resolution scene as pushing Clerith because:
Either way, I disagree that Cloud’s muddled memories have any effect on his feelings or his ability to make genuine, lasting bonds with people. After the lifestream event in the OG, Cloud didn’t suddenly forget the bonds he’d created with AVALANCHE despite only having met them while under his false persona. He didn’t treat them like strangers. His feelings for them that had developed during the course of the game remained unchanged. The only thing that changed was his manner of expressing those feelings. Therefore, whatever feelings he developed for Aerith are 100% his own and legitimate, regardless of his muddled memories.
As such, the feelings that Cloud was expressing in the resolution scene with Aerith were 100% legitimate. The Remake Ultimania already confirmed that Aerith’s lines (“Whatever happens, you can’t fall in love with me. Even if you think you have, it’s not real”) are about her fate in the OG. No mention whatsoever was made about Cloud’s memories. It follows that Aerith knows she is going to die (which matches with her earlier comment that everyone dies eventually), so she lies to Cloud in order to push him away and protect him from what she sees as inevitable heartbreak.
Yes, Cloud wanted to comfort Tifa for three chapters, however, there is nothing inherently romantic about wanting to comfort someone. He would have wanted to comfort her all the same regardless of whether he sees her as just a friend or as someone he has romantic feelings for.
Tifa could very well have looked up the flower’s meanings because she was worried about Cloud and hoped to reunite with him, but that doesn’t address why she was unhappy that Cloud had gotten the flower from Aerith or any of the other points I outlined above.
In the scene with Leslie, Cloud is thinking about Aerith. Leslie says “Was it a message? What was she trying to tell me?” then the camera pans to Cloud’s surprised, then pensive expression. Cloud is clearly wondering what Aerith was trying to tell him with the flower and then Tifa, being empathetic, chimes in about it meaning “we’ll meet again” giving hope to both Leslie and Cloud that they will be reunited with their respective missing persons.
Cloud didn’t lie to Tifa about the flower. He simply never said where it came from. Though I agree Tifa had much bigger losses in her mind, it makes it even more glaring that she would bring up the flower coming from Aerith at all, especially in that moment.
- Why is Tifa unhappy that Cloud got the flower from Aerith unless she saw it as some indication of romantic feelings between the two?
- If Cloud originally getting the flower from Aerith was insignificant, then why didn’t Cloud just confirm that yes, he got the flower from Aerith? Instead, he is silent and averts his eyes.
- Why does Tifa laugh unhappily after Cloud’s silence to her initial statement about the flower? What do you think she means when she says, “I knew there was something weird going on. You, buying flowers.” Is she not unhappy about the effect Aerith has on Cloud?
- Why is Cloud silent, again, instead of saying something to effect of, “It’s not like that.”?
- Why is the source of the flower being brought up at all? Why bring it up in Tifa’s resolution scene?
Either way, I disagree that Cloud’s muddled memories have any effect on his feelings or his ability to make genuine, lasting bonds with people. After the lifestream event in the OG, Cloud didn’t suddenly forget the bonds he’d created with AVALANCHE despite only having met them while under his false persona. He didn’t treat them like strangers. His feelings for them that had developed during the course of the game remained unchanged. The only thing that changed was his manner of expressing those feelings. Therefore, whatever feelings he developed for Aerith are 100% his own and legitimate, regardless of his muddled memories.
As such, the feelings that Cloud was expressing in the resolution scene with Aerith were 100% legitimate. The Remake Ultimania already confirmed that Aerith’s lines (“Whatever happens, you can’t fall in love with me. Even if you think you have, it’s not real”) are about her fate in the OG. No mention whatsoever was made about Cloud’s memories. It follows that Aerith knows she is going to die (which matches with her earlier comment that everyone dies eventually), so she lies to Cloud in order to push him away and protect him from what she sees as inevitable heartbreak.
Yes, Cloud wanted to comfort Tifa for three chapters, however, there is nothing inherently romantic about wanting to comfort someone. He would have wanted to comfort her all the same regardless of whether he sees her as just a friend or as someone he has romantic feelings for.
Tifa could very well have looked up the flower’s meanings because she was worried about Cloud and hoped to reunite with him, but that doesn’t address why she was unhappy that Cloud had gotten the flower from Aerith or any of the other points I outlined above.
In the scene with Leslie, Cloud is thinking about Aerith. Leslie says “Was it a message? What was she trying to tell me?” then the camera pans to Cloud’s surprised, then pensive expression. Cloud is clearly wondering what Aerith was trying to tell him with the flower and then Tifa, being empathetic, chimes in about it meaning “we’ll meet again” giving hope to both Leslie and Cloud that they will be reunited with their respective missing persons.
Cloud didn’t lie to Tifa about the flower. He simply never said where it came from. Though I agree Tifa had much bigger losses in her mind, it makes it even more glaring that she would bring up the flower coming from Aerith at all, especially in that moment.
Yes, SE did say that they would be hitting the same story beats as the OG and not making drastic changes, but they already did make drastic changes—Zack is alive in an alternate timeline, the characters already fought Sephiroth, they are having visions of events in the OG that have not yet come to pass but Red XIII said would happen if they failed in their final battle against the arbiters (which they did not). So, I think that while they will mostly follow the same story beats (going to the same locations on a hunt for Sephiroth with occasional clashes against Shinra), I also think it’s possible that certain events at said locations will change. I see Aerith surviving equally as likely as her still dying, but if you believe otherwise, I understand why you believe so and respect that view point.
I don’t see Cloud dying at the very end of the remake series as something outside of the realm of possibility either, especially since SE stated that the remake will be the final entry in the compilation. You can still cover the same story up until the very end and there is a legitimate narrative reason for him to die. They killed off Tidus in FFX and Noctis in FFXV, after all, so it’s not like killing off main characters at the end of their stories is unheard of. Again though, this is all speculation and I can understand why you see it as very unlikely.
I agree that Tifa must be involved in recovering Cloud’s memories as she is the only one who can independently verify them since she is the only still living that knew him in his childhood. My meaning was more that if Cloud has romantic feelings for both women and they both have romantic feelings for him, and Aerith is still alive at the end of the series or if Cloud dies at the very end of the series, then Cloud is not guaranteed to end up together with Tifa at the end of the remake. I personally find the end of the OG ambiguous. You can get the low affection highwind scene and Cloud will always say in the end that he thinks he can meet Aerith in the promised land. Nomura also specifically said that KH answers questions about Cloud and Aerith’s relationship in the OG and KH1 end credits showed Cloud and Aerith reuniting, so? I think you can argue it both ways with the OG.
TLDR; I just think the remake opens up possibilities (not certainties) that Cloud can be together with Aerith in the end.
I don’t see Cloud dying at the very end of the remake series as something outside of the realm of possibility either, especially since SE stated that the remake will be the final entry in the compilation. You can still cover the same story up until the very end and there is a legitimate narrative reason for him to die. They killed off Tidus in FFX and Noctis in FFXV, after all, so it’s not like killing off main characters at the end of their stories is unheard of. Again though, this is all speculation and I can understand why you see it as very unlikely.
I agree that Tifa must be involved in recovering Cloud’s memories as she is the only one who can independently verify them since she is the only still living that knew him in his childhood. My meaning was more that if Cloud has romantic feelings for both women and they both have romantic feelings for him, and Aerith is still alive at the end of the series or if Cloud dies at the very end of the series, then Cloud is not guaranteed to end up together with Tifa at the end of the remake. I personally find the end of the OG ambiguous. You can get the low affection highwind scene and Cloud will always say in the end that he thinks he can meet Aerith in the promised land. Nomura also specifically said that KH answers questions about Cloud and Aerith’s relationship in the OG and KH1 end credits showed Cloud and Aerith reuniting, so? I think you can argue it both ways with the OG.
TLDR; I just think the remake opens up possibilities (not certainties) that Cloud can be together with Aerith in the end.
Yes, they were both curious, however, Cloud lied to Aerith that he didn't recall who he gave the flower to and then later told her when asked that Tifa isn't his girlfriend and it wasn't like that. So I see a denial of a romantic connection to one and Cloud being silent when asked if there's something more going on with the other. Though to be fair, Aerith was far more direct in her questioning than Tifa was and Cloud not being in a relationship with Tifa doesn't equate to not having romantic feelings for her. Again, I believe that Cloud has romantic feelings for both, but they seem to be emphasizing Cloud's romantic interest in Aerith more than his romantic interest in Tifa.
That's fair. I see it more as Tifa being upset that the flower was from Aerith specifically (given the conversation in the sewer where Tifa questions if Cloud is hiding something/avoiding something about how he knows Aerith, and Ultimania quotes regarding her jealousy over Cloud and Aerith's relationship from the OG and ACC). I also question why the developers would have Tifa bring Aerith up in connection to Cloud at all in her resolution scene? That could be skipped and have Tifa start talking immediately about the meaning of the flowers, triggered by the fact that they are standing in a field of them.
The bit about 'lovers used to give these' is only in the English version. In Japanese, Aerith simply says it means reunion, but yes, Cloud does end up giving the flower to Tifa. I think the romantic implications of that scene are weakened by the conversation in Tifa's resolution scene (since she is disappointed to learn it came from Aerith) and that ultimately, the flower comes back to Cloud and Aerith. Chapter 8 is titled "The Flower of Reunion" in Japanese and you receive a trophy in Chapter 9 called "Reunion" when Aerith joins up again with Cloud. Chapter 14 brings it back to Cloud and Aerith, if not in Tifa's Resolution scene then in the conversation with Leslie where Leslie wondering what his fiancee was trying to tell him with the flower pendant makes him think of Aerith and Tifa brings up that is means reunions and we'll meet again.
Lol I've definitely seen shippers on both sides trying to completely dismiss romantic feelings for and/or from the other girl, so I felt that I needed to clarify.
I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I'm pretty happy with what Cloud and Tifa got from part 1 because, as you said yourself, their strongest moments are later on in the game. I personally believe that part 1 has built up a good ground from both ships, and this alone is already a good thing for C/T since that's not how things went in OG at this part ( which is more C/A centric).[/qoute]
True enough. I fully agree Cloti got a lot of strong moments in the first part, I just think Clerith got a bit more than Cloti for reasons that I listed above in my prior responses.
I don't think it would be too drastic if it's at the very end of the series, which would be also supposedly be the end of the compilation. But again, it's all speculation, haha.
Thanks so much!You all make excellent points as well.
I agree it makes sense to ask about who Aerith is at that point in time but it's Tifa additional questioning after Cloud's initial answer that moved into questioning the nature of Cloud and Aerith's relationship itself. In Japanese, Tifa is asking if Cloud is hiding/avoiding something about how he knows Aerith and why she's helping them. What does she think /Cloud/ is hiding/avoiding about how he knows Aerith? Maybe I'm reading too much into it lol, but it seems shippy to me.Please see my answer to this in other replies.
I would see the hug more romantically if the Remake Ultimania didn't say that Cloud was copying Barret's earlier hug of Tifa with the same intent to comfort her. A hug may mean more in Japan, but it is not inherently romantic. Referencing other Japanese media, Sakura hugged Naruto tightly, but it wasn't intended to be romantic and Naruto ended up with Hinata. I'm not saying it can't be romantic, I'm simply saying there is evidence to support that the moment itself can be viewed in a platonic manner, whereas Cloud and Aerith's resolution scene is point blank about romantic feelings.The Remake Ultimania confirmed that these lines were about Aerith's fate in the OG and no mention was made about Cloud's memories or Zack. Therefore, it stands to reason she is lying in order to try and push Cloud away to protect him from what she sees as inevitable heartbreak when she dies. This matches with Aerith mentioning that everyone dies in an earlier part of this scene.
Also, given that SE chose to portray the best/most romantic outcomes of optional scenes in the end credits (Cloud and Tifa's train tumble, Jessie kissing Cloud's cheek after the racing minigame, Aerith's red dress reveal scene), it seems very unlikely that they would choose to show a version of the resolution scene that sinks a ship, when they could have shown Cloud and Tifa's hug instead.You make a fair point about Barret's resolution scene having a nod towards Cloti. I just find it an odd choice on the developers part to bring up Aerith in relation to Cloud in two optional Cloti scenes, while keeping the optional Clerith scenes solely about Clerith. In general though, I also think that Cloud's resolution scene with Aerith is blatantly about romance where Cloud and Tifa's resolution scene is ambiguous and arguably platonic.Lol I think this is a pretty fair assessment.
RhinoKart
Pro Adventurer
No worries, I still haven't figured out how to format things properly. I realized I never welcomed you so let me do that first!
You have some interesting points and I'd like to respond to all of them properly, but it is 2am for me so that will have to wait till tomorrow so my post will be coherent.
One thing I am curious about though, is even if the sewer and Tifa resolution scene are about pushing Clerith (we'll agree to disagree on this one for now), do you feel that the rest of the game was pushing Clerith as well? The general impression many of us got was that it was pushing Cloti, and I'd just really love to hear another perspective!
Final_Heaven
Pro Adventurer
You know you don't have to spoil your comments. You can just leave them. Spoilering them actually make it harder to respond to. Anyways, I'll just respond to these comments.
Yes, it ties into her fate. Aerith dies and she never gets to meet the real Cloud. She never gets past the illusion. The reason that I say it sinks the ship if we take her words at face value is because we're meant to be aware here that Aerith knows she dies early and that Cloud is not who he says he is. If she's calling any potential romantic feelings from Cloud for her invalid then that feeds into what people have been saying about Cloud x Aerith for ages.
So those romantic feelings don't currently stem from the real Cloud. They stem from the artificial personality. Cloud's feelings for Tifa predate the current fabrication. That's not to say he won't have any romantic feelings for Aerith once the real Cloud comes back but they would inevitably change and it won't be the same.
There's a pretty good rant on this from another Tumblr user:
Now a lot of fans ignore the very important part of Aerith's statement. And pretend she never said it or was just "trying to avoid breaking his heart" when
Aerith's "it's not real" statement is meta knowledge. Not only is she saying he can't love her because they aren't meant to be it's not real because she knows he's SOLDIER! Cloud. And SOLDIER! Cloud is according to the narrative is literally "not real". It's not that his feelings themselves aren't real it's that even if he has feelings for her even if we argue he's head over heels and ready to marry her on the spot they still wouldn't have actually met, he still wouldn't be himself, he would still be acting on an illusion, and he would also be acting without fully realizing the situation.
For instance you meet someone and you fall in love with them but then you find out that you literally thought you were someone else (ex: A Kpop idol) that entire time. And they also believed that you were that person. You also on top of it find out you're actually head over heels in love with SOMEONE ELSE and you didn't even realize it.
Your feelings themselves for this person may be real but now you realize that it was you THINKING you were in love with that person. Because you can THINK you are in love with someone (fall for them) without truly knowing them. It's actually fairly easy to do. It just means you're infatuated with the idea of them. You're fond of them. You fancy them. The situation the romance seems like it's meant to be etc.
But actually loving a person for real requires knowing them as people there's no way around that.
If you were never yourself, your reality is warped and this whole time your heart beat for someone else. Then that person you think you love never actually even got to know you as a person.
Thus, not real.
It's confusing as heck. And it would definitely put a lot of doubt in your relationship with the person. Especially when you realize your feelings for the other person are how you truly feel. And she's the love of your dead best friend whose death you feel guilty over too.
So...
Now in Japanese Aerith says this "You can't fall in love with me, if you do it's in your IMAGINATION."
I think it's even more clear here. She's saying no matter how Cloud feels about her she has meta knowledge that makes her certain he can't love her. No matter if he thinks he does. He's a very unreliable narrator.
Considering she knows how OG went she understands he is not himself. She also knows obviously that he's got feelings for Tifa.
Cloud doesn't know any of this.
Cloud in Remake and in OG could get down on one knee and propose to her and Aerith and the story are telling us plain and simple it WOULDN'T MATTER.
Because it's all an illusion. He's not himself. It's in his imagination. Not real.
Now it can be said that Cloud said it was too one sided of her to say this and doesn't he get a say? So he could disagree but she is warning him of something he DOESN'T have a say in.
And we can say that it's just Aerith's perspective maybe she just thinks it's not real. But again she KNOWS he is not real.
And this scene is actually meant to clarify Cloud's feelings in OG. It's saying plain as day in OG he thought he was falling for her but he was stuck in an illusion and didn't know it.
If fans wanna say it's PROOF of what he felt in OG then we gotta use the whole statement then. And if we think about it THAT way then It's proof that he fell in love with her in OG AND YET it was NOT REAL. IN HIS IMAGINATION. AN ILLUSION.
Because during all the time he knew her he was SOLDIER! Cloud, his fake self who was acting upon a warped reality. And THAT true love does not make. No matter if he thought it was.
So people constantly saying well it proves Cloud's feelings for Aerith. So if there's Cloti's worried about Cloud's feelings for Aerith...
I want you to know right here:
Cloud's feelings for Aerith were never the issue. The issue is Cloud's feelings for Aerith are literally described as not being real love and in his imagination. They're also associated with the fake him. In comparison to Tifa who is described as who he was meant to be with and is associated with true love and the real him.
To SUMMARIZE
The Resolution could have played out with him declaring love and anything else. It would not matter.
Because the point of that scene still was to show as plain as day that what we're seeing is an illusion and not real.
..... He's worried about her yes, they're getting closer yes but in the words of Elsa "You can't marry someone you just met."
And in the case of OG you can't have a relationship with someone who you never really met. Aerith is very aware of this.
If you reject Aerith's flower, Aerith tells Cloud that his girlfriend would like it which leads to Cloud trying to buy it from Aerith while thinking of Tifa.
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Master Bates
Do you enjoy your life?
- AKA
- Mr. Koiwai
I feel like the argument is just a variation of "Tifa's apparent jealousy as indicative of Cloud's having feelings for Aerith because they're part of the LTD". We've been thru this angle before with BB.
Tifa's feelings are her own; Cloud's feelings are his. Tifa's apprehension are indicative of her feelings of insecurity. It does not necessarily inform us of Cloud's romantic feelings for either girls. In this Remake, Cloud is portrayed to be developing feelings for Aerith (whatever those feelings are). Whereas his feelings for Tifa are made even more palpable than it was during the Midgar part of the OG to create an even better foundation for what's to come.
You can say the Remake is pushing for Clerith more, but I disagree. I just couldn't see it.
That said, SE is not killing off Cloud. He's the protagonist of a Final "Fantasy" game. He is not dying for both Watsonian and Doylistic reasons (thanks for the words, Theo).
Tifa's feelings are her own; Cloud's feelings are his. Tifa's apprehension are indicative of her feelings of insecurity. It does not necessarily inform us of Cloud's romantic feelings for either girls. In this Remake, Cloud is portrayed to be developing feelings for Aerith (whatever those feelings are). Whereas his feelings for Tifa are made even more palpable than it was during the Midgar part of the OG to create an even better foundation for what's to come.
You can say the Remake is pushing for Clerith more, but I disagree. I just couldn't see it.
That said, SE is not killing off Cloud. He's the protagonist of a Final "Fantasy" game. He is not dying for both Watsonian and Doylistic reasons (thanks for the words, Theo).
Maidenofwar
They/Them
I feel as if the CxA scene was meant to destroy CxA the VA wouldn't be so positive about it and it would be I don't know noted somewhere the narrative was not to expect more in the future, like if the direction was supposed to be hopeless, etc. Sorry but when the staff, etc do nothing but talk about how romantic CxA are in this game, even again referring to their date in the park I have a hard time not looking forward to the future.
Final_Heaven
Pro Adventurer
Bri is getting this stuff third hand/fourth hand from the English VA Director and she hasn't even played past Midgar in the OG FFVII. Hell, she's still surprised by things that happen in Remake itself. And rhe didn't even address the "it's not real" line even though she addressed the just as spoilery "Don't fall in love with me" part.
And when you think about it, how included is the English VA director in the story's direction at this point especially when Nomura and Nojima aren't even done writing Part 2 of the Remake
That's not to say that Cloud and Aerith don't have romantic scenes. They do and they will in the future, it's just....how valid is it all when you realize that this is all coming from a fake persona
If you want Cloud and Aerith to have a real romance then she has to survive past Mideel when Cloud can be in an actual relationship with someone
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