SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[MasterMoogle]

I'd argue that the illusion of choice is entirely the point.

I see what you're saying, but by giving the player the choice of molding Aerith/Tifa's feelings for Cloud, the devs undermined the stories of those characters. This, I think, is why the developers have done interviews after the fact to "correct the record." It's also why I hope the devs are reintroducing Zack into the story, because Aerith needs to exist independent of Cloud and the player's choices, especially since she's doomed anyway despite her importance to the external narrative. Conversely, Tifa's story revolves around Cloud, so it makes no sense to deprive her of that simply because the player prefers Aerith.

This is something that bugs me to this day, because I plan on going into game development. It undermines the characters to add a mechanic such as the "affection meter" into the game. It's immersion-breaking because it reminds the player that the choices of this character aren't the character's actual choices. They're the player's choices.

However, if it serves a different function than turning the story into a player-controlled branching narrative, then maybe I should judge it on those grounds. I'm still thinking about this. Honestly, I feel like books could be written analyzing and criticizing FF7's story mechanics. We arguably already have in this thread.

 

[Final_Heaven]

But that doesn't make sense if certain scenes are made canon after the fact, and Cloud ends up with Tifa anyway. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying the way the devs went about it was dumb because it merely gives the player the illusion of choice.

Then again, who decided Aerith's date and the high affection highwind scene were the "canon" scenes? How was this determined?

The former is just math. Aerith wins in a tie between her and Tifa for the date and Aerith starts with higher affection too. The devs really want you to get the Aerith date.

The Ultimanias are the ones that said yeah, the HA Highwind scene is the canon one and there's a convo in Case of Tifa that only makes sense if the high affection scene happened.

 

[MasterMoogle]

The Ultimanias are the ones that said yeah, the HA Highwind scene is the canon one and there's a convo in Case of Tifa that only makes sense if the high affection scene happened.

Which conversation is that?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Aerith's date is referenced as having been an event that occurred in numerous retrospectives of the events of FFVII. And it fits the important themes that encompass what's going on between Aerith and Cloud. It's important due to clueing the audience in on there being something wrong with Cloud, and Aerith wanting to see the real Cloud. She is aware that Cloud isn't quite himself.

Tifa's date is cute but it ironically doesn't quite hold the narrative impact and importance you would expect. Because the game saves its most important Cloud and Tifa moments for later.

 

[Final_Heaven]

Which conversation is that?

Here. Maybe, it would be different for others but this sounds like a man entering a relationship with a woman:


The sin held a role deep in my heart. I wondered if I could live on with these feelings. As Tifa looked away from the sky towards the ground, she was fearful of the future. However, Cloud beside her chose to smile gently. It was a smile that she hadn’t seen before during their journey. Cloud noticed her gaze and asked, “What’s wrong?”

“Cloud, you’re smiling.”

“I am?”

“Yeah.”

“It all starts now. A new…”

Cloud looked for the right words.

“A new life.”

“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”

“That’s right…”

“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”

“Why?”

“Because I’ve always failed everything.”

“That’s not funny.”

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”


“You’ve always had me.”


“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.

 

[Graymouse]

Here. Maybe, it would be different for others but this sounds like a man entering a relationship with a woman:


The sin held a role deep in my heart. I wondered if I could live on with these feelings. As Tifa looked away from the sky towards the ground, she was fearful of the future. However, Cloud beside her chose to smile gently. It was a smile that she hadn’t seen before during their journey. Cloud noticed her gaze and asked, “What’s wrong?”

“Cloud, you’re smiling.”

“I am?”

“Yeah.”

“It all starts now. A new…”

Cloud looked for the right words.

“A new life.”

“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”

“That’s right…”

“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”

“Why?”

“Because I’ve always failed everything.”

“That’s not funny.”

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”


“You’ve always had me.”


“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.

This is one of my favorite passages in the entire series. This little quiet interaction between the two, tells you all you need to know. I feel that it peels away all the metaphorical speaking, dirt and grime of their relationship with each other and the relationship of those around them. Which gives them a greater understanding of each other on personal level than ever before.

 

[Yumelinh]

Reading all that felt like I was getting lectured by Moana.

Isn't it just amazing how we have all these quotes confirming C/T to not only have romantic feelings for each other, live together, and even raise a family together, and yet there are still people who insist their relationship is entirely platonic.

Even Yuna and Tidus never get to have the same amount of confirmatory quotes attributable to them, and yet no one ever questions the canonicity (is this a word?) of their romantic relationship. The standard required of C/T to be even considered as a legitimate pairing is totally absurd.

I just feel so sorry for Cloud and Tifa at this point because in-universe, they had to overcome a lot of things in order to get together. Out-of-universe, they also need to overcome a lot of shit in order to be remotely considered as viable. No matter what they do, no matter what the devs say about them, some people will never ever consider a romantic union between them possible. It almost feels like they're the real star-crossed lovers.

What is worst to me is that even I tend to forget how much confirmation C/T have. I think I spend so much time around here, debating the uncertain of their relationship and the ambiguity that SE likes to apply to them that I start to believe in all of this as truth, and then I come across posts like these or I reread Tres's LTD article that was recently brought up in the Cloti Thread and I'm suddenly reminded that there's no such an ambiguity in their relationship, at least not anymore.

It's kinda surreal the amount of denying that exist in the fandom. And yeah, I know! the story itself is what allowed such a thing to grow at these extends ( and the LTD isn't the only thing that this said ambiguity has damaged tbh), but It's just such an interesting case. It makes me believe that there's not such a thing that Remake can do to end this discussion unless they decided to go to a C/A direction.

 

[Graymouse]

What is worst to me is that even I tend to forget how much confirmation C/T have. I think I spend so much time around here, debating the uncertain of their relationship and the ambiguity that SE likes to apply to them that I start to believe in all of this as truth, and then I come across posts like these or I reread Tres's LTD article that was recently brought up in the Cloti Thread and I'm suddenly reminded that there's no such an ambiguity in their relationship, at least not anymore.

It's kinda surreal the amount of denying that exist in the fandom. And yeah, I know! the story itself is what allowed such a thing to grow at these extends ( and the LTD isn't the only thing that this said ambiguity has damaged tbh), but It's just such an interesting case. It makes me believe that there's not such a thing that Remake can do to end this discussion unless they decided to go to a C/A direction.

I agree with you. At least for now, I think I am done with the LTD thread. I might peek in here every once in a while but for the most part, I think I am done.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm just amazed at how much weight ff7 fans put onto canon when it comes to shipping. Other fandoms aren't like this in my experience.

 

[Yumelinh]

I'm just amazed at how much weight ff7 fans put onto canon when it comes to shipping. Other fandoms aren't like this in my experience.

I don't think here is so out of the norm when it comes to this tbh. At least in my experience, ofc. Naruto, Bleach, Avatar ship wars existed for this exact reason to name a few.

 

[looneymoon]

I'm just amazed at how much weight ff7 fans put onto canon when it comes to shipping. Other fandoms aren't like this in my experience.

we poppin' the BIGGEST bottles when makorra happens tomorrow

 

[Yumelinh]

we poppin' the BIGGEST bottles when makorra happens tomorrow

I just love how this quote will be forever a reminder ppl should never celebrate something bf it happens

 

[Odysseus]

we poppin' the BIGGEST bottles when makorra happens tomorrow

I'm outta the loop here

 

[looneymoon]

I'm outta the loop here

I'm probably not the best person to explain it because I never finished Legend of Korra but here goes!

Spoiler: Legend of Korra

The show had a love triangle between main-girl Korra, broody boy Mako, and hot-smart-rich girl Asami. The two girls both have a romantic relationship with Mako at different points of the series, and the they have a bit of strained relationship as a result. Towards the end of the series, Korra and Asami start facilitating a non-toxic friendship with each other. This, obviously, envigorated the shipping fanbase around them.

As the series neared its conclusion, the thought of Mako/Korra being endgame in the final episode was pretty common. He was Korra's first and most focused love interest, after all. Mako/Asami seemed unlikely at that point, and Korra/Asami... a vague fantasy.

But then the final episode drops and Korra/Asami end up being the canon pair.

The meme "we poppin the BIGGEST bottles when makorra happens tomorrow" was a post by a Mako/Korra shipper on the /co board on 4chan the day before the finale. When that... clearly didn't happen, the meme'd Pepe reaction that @Yumelinh posted exploded across the internet.

After the show, there was a large part of the fanbase that insisted that Korra and Asami were just "gal pals," as the depiction of the coupling wasn't super explicit. The creators then came out to say that they intended the developing relationship between them to be a romantic foundation, but they had to write around censorship guidelines in order to make it happen.

My personal take in all this is that... I'm a pushy gay who's all about wlw ships, so I was pleased I don't have much of an opinion of how well the foundation was laid because I didn't finish the show, but that's a bit less important to me. Also just... Mako was the worst. Maybe he got better later, but I just found him so unlikeable. Asami was also my favourite character so the outcome was great for me.

This is all shit I learned through Tumblr osmosis so please correct me if anything isn't explained properly.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm probably not the best person to explain it because I never finished Legend of Korra but here goes!

Spoiler: Legend of Korra

The show had a love triangle between main-girl Korra, broody boy Mako, and hot-smart-rich girl Asami. The two girls both have a romantic relationship with Mako at different points of the series, and the they have a bit of strained relationship as a result. Towards the end of the series, Korra and Asami start facilitating a non-toxic friendship with each other. This, obviously, envigorated the shipping fanbase around them.

As the series neared its conclusion, the thought of Mako/Korra being endgame in the final episode was pretty common. He was Korra's first and most focused love interest, after all. Mako/Asami seemed unlikely at that point, and Korra/Asami... a vague fantasy.

But then the final episode drops and Korra/Asami end up being the canon pair.

The meme "we poppin the BIGGEST bottles when makorra happens tomorrow" was a post by a Mako/Korra shipper on the /co board on 4chan the day before the finale. When that... clearly didn't happen, the meme'd Pepe reaction that @Yumelinh posted exploded across the internet.

After the show, there was a large part of the fanbase that insisted that Korra and Asami were just "gal pals," as the depiction of the coupling wasn't super explicit. The creators then came out to say that they intended the developing relationship between them to be a romantic foundation, but they had to write around censorship guidelines in order to make it happen.

My personal take in all this is that... I'm a pushy gay who's all about wlw ships, so I was pleased I don't have much of an opinion of how well the foundation was laid because I didn't finish the show, but that's a bit less important to me. Also just... Mako was the worst. Maybe he got better later, but I just found him so unlikeable. Asami was also my favourite character so the outcome was great for me.

This is all shit I learned through Tumblr osmosis so please correct me if anything isn't explained properly.

OOOOOH it was a reference to Korra. I didn't realize. Your assessment is correct from what I remember, and I think the relationship between Korra and Asami was actually more explicitly developed on in some sequel comic or other, though I never read those. That's a pretty embarrassing statement in hindsight lol.

Spoiler

D- does this mean good ol' T&A has hope?

 

[null]

I just watched Fate/stay night, and looks like there's a series for each of Shirou's harem so he can date all of them separately. That's smart business. We should start our own company (LTD ltd.) and get rich appeasing shippers.

But yeah... canon. It's still fiction, right? There's enough decent fanfics out there that shippers shouldn't need to beg for canon scraps. Never understood why FF7 shippers resort to language lawyering companion guides to death, or worrying about commercials from 1997. Turn on the TV in your mind!

 

[Final_Heaven]

OOOOOH it was a reference to Korra. I didn't realize. Your assessment is correct from what I remember, and I think the relationship between Korra and Asami was actually more explicitly developed on in some sequel comic or other, though I never read those. That's a pretty embarrassing statement in hindsight lol.

Spoiler

D- does this mean good ol' T&A has hope?

Highwind scene happens, Tifa gets preggers, Cloud self-sacrifices himself against Sephiorth and then Tifa & Aerith get married to raise little Zack Strife who looks like a black haired, red eyed Cloud.

And then Final Fantasy Versus 7 starts. Nomura gets another crack at the Versus universe.

18 year old Zack Strife and his two moms are the new protagonists.

 

[looneymoon]

Honestly, I think OG FF7 love triangle is probably more influenced by 90s harem anime than anyone cares to acknowledge a lot of the time tbh. Idk how ~controversial~ that is, cuz I don't really have any sources to confirm as much, its just an impression. There are so many blatant anime/manga homages there's just no doubt in my mind that's what was what was going on imo.

I remember being on the internet and seeing the Ryoko vs Ayeka stuff from Tenchi Muyo. Way more vicious than FF7 imo, though perhaps not nearly as longstanding. Does anyone care about Tenchi Muyo anymore?

 

[Cat on Mars]

There's enough decent fanfics out there that shippers shouldn't need to beg for canon scraps. Never understood why FF7 shippers resort to language lawyering companion guides to death, or worrying about commercials from 1997.

Because they're boring people and they want a Disney paint-by-the-numbers romance. Seriously, that's it. I found it's really difficult to write compelling stories with Cloud and Aerith when they're happy in a relationship because is boring af (and honestly, finding good fanfic with them is a task I've given up ages ago).

You can ship whatever you want (even digusting things that shouldn't exist) beause it's all fiction. I've created a monstruosity based on the idea of Sephiroth fucking Jenova's severed head Sephiroth loving Jenova's head tenderly.

Honestly, I think OG FF7 love triangle is probably more influenced by 90s harem anime than anyone cares to acknowledge a lot of the time tbh. Idk how ~controversial~ that is, cuz I don't really have any sources to confirm as much, its just an impression. There are so many blatant anime/manga homages there's just no doubt in my mind that's what was what was going on imo.

I remember being on the internet and seeing the Ryoko vs Ayeka stuff from Tenchi Muyo. Way more vicious than FF7 imo, though perhaps not nearly as longstanding. Does anyone care about Tenchi Muyo anymore?

No, because Tenchi is useless, as the title states
I remember that Tenchi stuff. My fave was Ryoko but I've learnt to appreciate Aeka and Washu is best girl.


RE: Korrasami
I called it, long before the spirit world arc. People don't pick up the details of what makes a story go forward, but I swear it was obvious since they were the only pleasant relationship to watch around the time Kuvira appeared.

 

[null]

Honestly, I think OG FF7 love triangle is probably more influenced by 90s harem anime than anyone cares to acknowledge a lot of the time tbh. Idk how ~controversial~ that is, cuz I don't really have any sources to confirm as much, its just an impression. There are so many blatant anime/manga homages there's just no doubt in my mind that's what was what was going on imo.

I know fuck all about 90's anime except what aired on Adult Swim but... seems FF7 (and Xenogears) borrow a lot of general ideas from Eva? Not sure if that was just the common creative zeitgeist in 90's Japan, or maybe it's just normal for anime to borrow but with an original spin. Like Cowboy Bebop and Lupin III.

Thankfully, at least FF7 made its women non-harem stereotypes. Although yandere Tifa would sort of kick ass.

Because they're boring people and they want a Disney paint-by-the-numbers romance. Seriously, that's it. I found it's really difficult to write compelling stories with Cloud and Aerith when they're happy in a relationship because is boring af (and honestly, finding good fanfic with them is a task I've given up ages ago).

Ever read the famous spirit sex fanfic? Highly compelling and definitely not boring!

 

[Cat on Mars]

Why yes I did! And I archived its hilarious sporking for posterity.
It's not boring because it's pure cringe. Last time I needed a whole day to read it because it was so cringey I needed to take breaks... which I used to start a Sephiroth /Jenova fanart because the idea was more complelling than reading that drivel!

 

[Master Bates]

Turns out Ryu, by his admission, actually had kept a copy (or did he archive it?) of the fic itself. Now I felt like all my energy trying to locate that spoof just went to waste.

 

[looneymoon]

I feel like FF7 owes more to stuff like Battle Angel Alita (literally did the elevated city above a slum metaphor before FF7), Berserk (big sworded sad man and silver haired superior with a weird homoerotic rivalry), Ghost in the Shell (the entire aethetic of Midgar/Jenova is 100% Masamune Shirow) than Eva I think? Though funny enough, Eva and FF7 converge at Godzilla! Shin Godzilla best Godzilla.

I'm not weeb ( ) I just... consume... a lot of......... media.

Xenogears is super Eva though! Which reminds me, I haven't played Xenogears in years, I'd really like to revisit it.

Interesting trivia for anyone who might not know - FF7 has a direct Xenogears reference. When Cloud is spacing out in Mideel he mutters "zeno...gias." In the PC version this is properly localized to "Xeno... gears." Xenogears is also a game where the lead (Fei) has sex with his love interest (Elly) leading up to the final battle. Very neat!

On topic: I was looking for Shroudy's old fic. Dish the deets, I thrive off cringe content

 

[Odysseus]

I always figured FF7 was Blade Runner meets Berserk meets The Thing meets Alita. Eva was too close to VII's release window to serve as an inspiration I think. And of course, the LTD was all inspired by harem schlock like Tenchi.

 

[null]

I feel like FF7 owes more to stuff like Battle Angel Alita (literally did the elevated city above a slum metaphor before FF7), Berserk (big sworded sad man and silver haired superior with a weird homoerotic rivalry), Ghost in the Shell (the entire aethetic of Midgar/Jenova is 100% Madamune Shirow) than Eva I think? Though funny enough, Eva and FF7 converge at Godzilla! Shin Godzilla best Godzilla.

Stuff like breathable liquid containing consciousness/memories, androgynous shapeshifting aliens arriving on meteors, biological mechas (though I've read WEAPON might really be Gundam influence), reunion compulsion. Midgar going dark to power the Sister Ray being REALLY similar to Japan going dark to power the positron rifle vs. Ramiel. Ambiguous ending (which FF wasn't known for previously, but also didn't straight up throw the plot overboard like Eva). Just weird to see so much cross pollination. It's like Japan had this giant anime ideas/homage store that everyone shops at.

Also I think the underwater gear displayed in the Gold Saucer is Unit 02's D-Type gear (not sure that was in the first PS1 release tho)

I'm not weeb ( ) I just... consume... a lot of......... media.

Hey I'm taking furious notes from you, that makes you a weeb sensei. Guess I'm a weeb... gakusei? Have not heard of Battle Angel Alita but now on the list!

On topic: I was looking for Shroudy's old fic. Dish the deets, I thrive off cringe content

Whatever happpened to Shroudy? Didn't know he wrote fanfics. Surprised he had the time for them. He was basically BlankBeat but a lot more energetic.