Master Bates
Do you enjoy your life?
- AKA
- Mr. Koiwai
Well yeah. That just means Cloud officially made Tifa his adopted sister. 
*cue I love my imouto tropes*
*cue I love my imouto tropes*
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
Ruri
Pro Adventurer
@Elyssis
I totally and utterly get the attachment to the ideal of Aerith having a different fate. SE will play with us and dangle the prospect in front of fans for years and I can't take that away from you until the remake has written the last page of Aerith's story. Especially as you're a C/A shipper, I really get holding this prospect close to heart. As an Aerith fan and at risk of going into non-remake talk for a second, she wanted to live a future so I am joining you in, possibly a hopeless wish, but the girl's still breathing now, right?
Ok, from a C/T perspective the significance of that scene is Cloud being able to overcome his prior, internal struggle of seeing someone comfort Tifa and wanting to do it himself and then succeeding, albeit awkwardly. The remake Ultimania also has Nojima mentioning Cloud's 'true self flashes in front of Tifa'. This is a positive for C/T because we know that real Cloud is seeking to comfort Tifa. Cloud and Tifa's relationship and interaction in this scene is valid, character and relationship development. Even if there's a debatable blip of Aerith being mentioned as a nod to the pairing, it does go hand in hand with some decent Cloud/Tifa interaction.
If we are going to look at all three and what they mean for the LTD, then Barret's was a nod to Cloud/Tifa and that was done by triggering a reaction out of Cloud by mentioning Tifa being hit on by other guys. So utilizing Barret's like so, then yes I agree we can use all three scenes as LTD fodder because we are mentioning Cloud's slight aggravation to a guy hitting on Tifa as evidence of his attachment and interest in her. So fairs fair.
I realise saying that however, that is all I took from Barret's resolution which is exactly what I'm asking not to be done with Tifa's so I have to apolgise because I think that was a blatant hypocrisy on my part. I'm still learning a lot in how to engage in debates
Still really happy to have you here @Elyssis! As much as the LTD talk should not be taken much seriously in the overall picture, I love reading other interpretations too especially as remake is simply just a fresh piece of meat waiting to be torn apart. It's hard to hear the opposite side sometimes though, when the quantity of C/T fans on this board resemble the Soot Sprites from My Neighbor Totoro. Please stick around!
I totally and utterly get the attachment to the ideal of Aerith having a different fate. SE will play with us and dangle the prospect in front of fans for years and I can't take that away from you until the remake has written the last page of Aerith's story. Especially as you're a C/A shipper, I really get holding this prospect close to heart. As an Aerith fan and at risk of going into non-remake talk for a second, she wanted to live a future so I am joining you in, possibly a hopeless wish, but the girl's still breathing now, right?
Ok, from a C/T perspective the significance of that scene is Cloud being able to overcome his prior, internal struggle of seeing someone comfort Tifa and wanting to do it himself and then succeeding, albeit awkwardly. The remake Ultimania also has Nojima mentioning Cloud's 'true self flashes in front of Tifa'. This is a positive for C/T because we know that real Cloud is seeking to comfort Tifa. Cloud and Tifa's relationship and interaction in this scene is valid, character and relationship development. Even if there's a debatable blip of Aerith being mentioned as a nod to the pairing, it does go hand in hand with some decent Cloud/Tifa interaction.
If we are going to look at all three and what they mean for the LTD, then Barret's was a nod to Cloud/Tifa and that was done by triggering a reaction out of Cloud by mentioning Tifa being hit on by other guys. So utilizing Barret's like so, then yes I agree we can use all three scenes as LTD fodder because we are mentioning Cloud's slight aggravation to a guy hitting on Tifa as evidence of his attachment and interest in her. So fairs fair.
I realise saying that however, that is all I took from Barret's resolution which is exactly what I'm asking not to be done with Tifa's so I have to apolgise because I think that was a blatant hypocrisy on my part. I'm still learning a lot in how to engage in debates
Still really happy to have you here @Elyssis! As much as the LTD talk should not be taken much seriously in the overall picture, I love reading other interpretations too especially as remake is simply just a fresh piece of meat waiting to be torn apart. It's hard to hear the opposite side sometimes though, when the quantity of C/T fans on this board resemble the Soot Sprites from My Neighbor Totoro. Please stick around!
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I interpreted that differently, she woke up Zack not because she remembers the true Cloud, but because what she thought of Cloud woke up Zack instead (so what she thought of Cloud was truly Zack). Proof is they talk and he's surprised she knows him, if her memories of Cloud had woken up Zack for Cloud, they wouldn't have that convo right after "oh you knew Cloud too?" < Zack woke up because he thought Aerith was thinking about himself, not about Cloud). The old Ultimanias make a LOT of fuss to say about how much Cloud's fake persona took from Zack. So I have to guess it's based on that.
But Maiden is dubious to me, not really canon, so whatever.
Some may accentuate the difference bewteen Fake!Cloud and True!Cloud, but you on the other hand seem to completely dismiss the differences between the two, even though SE keeps insisting about them.
First, the English translation was APPROVED by the devs. It's the same team who worked on Hollow. You can't say "Hollow is OK but not Midgar Blues". This is double standard.
Second I do find the JP one MORE romantic. Especially that line you mentioned squeezes my heart like HOLY SHIT THIS IS SO ROMANTIC lolol IDK if it's because I'm more familiar with Japanese culture, but I do prefer the JP version which is extremely romantic. That line you quoted doesn't bode anything bad for cloti. That's a mistake someone who doesn't know JP culture would make. The sweet air, the unshrinking distance, these are very common romantic themes in Japan. This is exactly why you have a localisation that explains to you how this is so romantic ever. Because if you don't know the Japanese trope, you totally miss it.
And yet, the devs do mention that they have Cloud speak around the both of them very differently, because they have both vastly different effects on him. Tifa speaks to True!Cloud, while Aerith speaks to Fake!Cloud. Aerith does give in his fake hero persona and enables it, at the contrary of Tifa who seeks and enable his true self. This is very obvious, because Aerith keeps talking about "her hero" and "her bodyguard", while Tifa doesn't let him play hero and needs him on an emotional level (this is why her ch14 is more emotional than Aerith's in the sense where it's something that hits Cloud - aka we pry into something intimate, even if it relates to comfort - while we as spectators are the ones targeted by Aerith's scene, moreso than Cloud, because we know the story).
Also you take great lengths of dismissing Aerith's own views on Cloud; it's very clear in her resolution that she knows that it's not the true Cloud she is talking to. Even though his desire to save her does make her happy, she still knows it's not the real one talking. Not that the real one wouldn't go saving her (he TOTALLY WOULD), but the feelings that are built there are not built by the real person, and that saddens her.
Yeah I never said it didn't. I believe all his flashbacks are his true memories, until proven otherwise. That doesn't change the fact that Aerith never met the real Cloud and lamented so.
For the bit about CLoud's special relationship with Tifa, @odekopeko has already answered you. The fact that he doesn't and can't answer what his relationship is with Tifa shows the depth of it, or he's simply say "she's a friend" and that would NOT be commented by Aerith, yet it STILL IS.
Edit: I hit reply before quoting and answering the rest, so the second part will come later. But yes, you are extremely dismissive of cloti scenes, because they just don't talk to you. I'll get back to this in my second part of the mastodonte answer. Answering such a long post is hard ;_;
Yeji738494
Lv. 1 Adventurer
- AKA
- Yeji
When nomura said clouds true self comes out with tifa, he did say something like “a little bit” - not that he’s a hundred percent himself with only tifa. It’s still meaningful but gotta remember cloud's mind is still all over the place at this point.
odekopeko
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Peko
Yeah, I agree with @Yeji738494 on this one. I think his true self emerging are just in brief flashes.
Also, I want to make a point that I absolutely agree with what @Maidenofwar said several pages earlier about Cloud retaining his feelings for Aerith, even after he regains his true self. That those feelings are "real", they were lived and not fake, even if the person was not.
I'm not really good at explaining my thoughts. Probably shouldn't even be here, haha. But the way I see it is, Cloud may not be himself, but the feelings he's developing for both women, heck, for everyone during the course of his journey, are real, tangible things for him. He experienced it. Even when he regains his true self, I 100% believe that those feelings and emotions and memories will be retained. Like it was mentioned before, he doesn't just forget about them.
I could be wrong, but that's just how I feel about it.
Also, I want to make a point that I absolutely agree with what @Maidenofwar said several pages earlier about Cloud retaining his feelings for Aerith, even after he regains his true self. That those feelings are "real", they were lived and not fake, even if the person was not.
I'm not really good at explaining my thoughts. Probably shouldn't even be here, haha. But the way I see it is, Cloud may not be himself, but the feelings he's developing for both women, heck, for everyone during the course of his journey, are real, tangible things for him. He experienced it. Even when he regains his true self, I 100% believe that those feelings and emotions and memories will be retained. Like it was mentioned before, he doesn't just forget about them.
I could be wrong, but that's just how I feel about it.
Final_Heaven
Pro Adventurer
Well yeah. That just means Cloud officially made Tifa his adopted sister.
*cue I love my imouto tropes*
Tifa: Words aren’t the only way to show someone how you feel.
Cloud(grabs Tifa by the shoulders and kisses her): Call me onii-chan, Tifa.
Tifa: W-what?
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Maybe that's why I'm feeling better about these LTD threads these days.
Master Bates
Do you enjoy your life?
- AKA
- Mr. Koiwai
Tifa: Welcome home, onii-chan! Would you like your dinner? Or a bath? Or do you want me?
*Later that night*
Tifa: Do you love me, onii-chan?
Cloud (pushes her to the bed): Of course, Tifa-chan!
_________________________________________
I need to lay off from incestuous anime plots.
Final_Heaven
Pro Adventurer
Cloud walks into Seventh Heaven after hours and sees Tifa bending over for him. Eyes widen in shock.
Tifa: "What's the matter, onii-chan? Scared of your little sister's tight ass?"
Tifa: "What's the matter, onii-chan? Scared of your little sister's tight ass?"
It's a meme, guys. Don't kill me.
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looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
I think you're legally required to make it "step-onii-chan," lest someone decides to call the police.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Master Bates
Do you enjoy your life?
- AKA
- Mr. Koiwai
By "topic", did you mean the incest plots? Because that was the most recent one. We're a bunch of nutjobs here. You have to be clear.
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
Exactly! At this point, I think they just LOVE to mess with us ( and I can't even blame them for that....
). We're in for a wild ride in the next years D:Don't worry about this and take your time, really! Feel free to answer a few questions together with a single answer, if you think it can answer the points there or anything that might make things easier for you. If things get too overwhelming just hang around the other threads in this forum and come back here when you want. Nobody will judge you for that, I'm sure!
I'd also like to refer to a few points you made, but more as a way to clarify a few things:
For Hollow, I think the reason people are reluctant to debating it here is that a lot of info about the creation of the song has been released (you can find them all here) which disproves the notion that the song is referred to Aerith only. I'm not so sure if you came across these, so I'm leaving the link here to you.
As for the High Affection Highwind scene, as @minami758 explained, it's also heavily backed up by Ultimanias that this is the canon one ( since it's a variable scene instead of an optional one and, like all variable scenes, it also has a canonical outcome storywise). If you want to debate it in specific or want more sources about this, feel free to post here or here.
As for the "do you love me?" from CoT, Tres has guided you there as well.
aaand that's all of it I guess o//
I.............never noticed that....
Edit: typos...i should really start reading what I wrote bf press post
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Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
That's how I interpreted it, too. idk how to explain well either but to me, it's not like his feelings have changed or that anything he felt before was untrue, but more like.. his perspective of said things has changed.
When Cloud is fully himself, he has memories and feelings that Fake!Cloud just didn't have entirely before so, ofc, things are not going to be perceived in the same way. So, you could say that Pre-Lifestream Cloud favored Aerith but that won't be the same thing for Post-Lifestream Cloud because his 'self' that emergers from there have been in love with the same person for years and now he knows ( and fully feels) that, too. It doesn't erase or diminish anything he lived or felt before, it just gives everything a new perspective.
That's why I don't think it's entirely correct to say that Cloud just moved on with Tifa since things are definitely not that simple. She was there all along, this info was just withheld from Cloud ( and us) until the Lifestream scene came along.
Edit: Now that I think of it...this whole thing is almost like those kdramas with amnesia plots like Winter Sonata or Stairway to Heaven lol.
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Eerie
Fire and Blood
No it wasn't, it flowed perfectly because it represented all the hopes Tifa had put in this symbol. And it hurt her to discover that Cloud hadn't had the idea by himself to bring her a flower. As Aerith predicted to force Cloud to take the flower in ch2, she was happy to receive it
The hug represents the physicality and closeness that already exist between the two. It's not only about comforting/being comforted, it's about how close you are willing to be from someone. This is HUGE deal for Japanese people. I've seen a clerith screaming at her screen and being like "Ohhh I thought Cloud was bad with this kind of stuff!" it was really a testament of how much this means *for Cloud* (and Tifa). You may say it's something anyone would do for a friend, but Cloud isn't anyone, he's himself, and doing this isn't easy.
Also the HA highwind scene is the canon route, it has been stressed out many times by SE by now for us to confidently say this, just as much as the Gold Saucer date for Aerith is the canon route. Truck loads of people had both while playing. It's one of the things that a lot of clerith fail to understand: no matter how much Cloud in the first part falls for Aerith, he will ALWAYS meet back with Tifa, they will ALWAYS confess their feelings for each other and have sex under the Highwind. It doesn't diminish what clerith has, but it's the canon.
I don't think his feelings are bleeding through, at least not in the way you're implying. In this particular scene, yes he is sad so he cries, but he doesn't understand why, and he doesn't want Aerith to know he's been crying either (still the look cool thing). This is the only scene where we get to see him touched emotionally by a flashforward, it's pretty clear that he doesn't really understand those flashes either.
This is stretching at best, especially when Nojima goes out of his way to say that Cloud wants to look cool in front of Aerith (Zack persona surfaces; remember it's a fake persona based on how Cloud THINKS what looking cool means, and to him Zack was really super cool) and goes out of his way to say that the real Cloud surfaces with Tifa. Cloud is IMHO absolutely none the wiser, he doesn't know or understand his feelings for both (this was a stressing point in the OG), and that's only natural since he doesn't have a grasp on who he is. I mean, it's really important in the lens of the LTD to understand Cloud's own actions.
Yes, but let's talk about how what he thinks he feels is just an illusion then. They say it's a clear call back to the OG, however, it's not only Aerith dying that is referenced, but also Cloud not being himself. The illusion talk is exactly that, a clear call to Cloud not being himself. Than Aerith also references the Highwind scene, because it's the truth hidden by the illusion. And she goes in her prayer pose, which is relative to her dying.
Maiden is not taken as canon around here, it was never referenced as such by SE (they also took out an anime from the canon where there was some cloti, so it's 1:1 there). The thing is, in Remake, Aerith is NOT yet over Zack. She is not. His importance looms out on sector 5, where you see Aerith has talked to NPCs about him ("oh I thought you were taller" no shit, Zack was). She asks twice Cloud about him, full of hope, until she notices that Cloud is weird when she mentions Zack's name, so she dials back from then on. She says she must move on and look forward, but those are the words of someone who's stuck and unable yet to move on. And then Zack's shadow comes back to haunt her at the end... yeah that is on purpose, and Aerith's path is not as simple as it seems.
Oh that may very well be possible, it may also be him wondering if he should tell Leslie what the flower symbolises, or even him realising what the flower symbolises and why it was so important to both Aerith and Tifa. Who knows, this is not my hill to die on, seriously lol.
Tifa's resolution scene shows that she knows the flower's meaning, that it's important to her, and that's a knowledge she can passes on to Leslie. I mean the flower has pretty much an overarching mini-story in itself that spans across several characters in Remake, the motif is about everywhere. And "reunion" IS a cloti motif, as well as a clerith one.
??? You are aware that you can get the Sephiroth fight without Aerith, right? Or are you talking about something else?
It's not really an assumption when you don't have the choice of the scene, and the camera pans out to show both Cloud and Tifa when Cloud answers "yes" to Andrea. TBH it made me laugh because Tifa was standing there blissfully oblivious that they were talking about her. :')
Like, this is your opinion, giving that's not what he says in JP (that's one-sided). I DO think he's interested, just not as much as you believe he is though. Not my hill to die for, again.
The thing is, and you mentioning Aladdin and Jasmine pretty much nails it, you simply don't see the cloti scenes as romantic like you do with clerith because the two romances are supposed to talk differently to people. Clerith is pretty much Disney. Cloti is grounded fully in reality. Clerith is fireworks and words and al. Cloti is always standing by each others' side, showing not talking, bodily language over all. Because you like the first one more, you can't see why the second is romantic. For me, clerith is just that, Disney, and I'm not really into Disney (the only pair I really liked was in Mulan, and uh that was not a classic Disney pair lol). I hate Romeo & Juliet with every fiber of my body, I always have, and I read it as a teen, so when it was supposed to be very romantic in my eyes. Clerith doesn't "talk" to me, I'm not interested in them and I miss a lot of cues. And that's ok. It's not my thing but it's there for others who adore them.
On the other hand, I'm a sucker for cloti because it's everything that I look up to, that I think of very healthy in a relationship, even with so many troubles, they can overcome them. To me, that's a couple that's working and shines through. Tifa is about the only heroine I know who stayed beside a vegetable hero, because she had decided that the meaning of her life was to stay beside him and help him. That she would not doubt him again. It takes a LOT of love to do something like this. This is straight out of marriage vows reaction. They talk through body language, they understand each other at a deep level, on a whole (Case of Tifa may show Tifa's insecurities, she is still the woman who knows him best). And it's ok, it's not your thing, and you miss or dismiss a lot of things because they don't talk to you. However, when shippers tell you "this is cloti, this is meant to please us", maybe there is a reason behind this. Just like when you say "this is meant to please me as a clerith shipper", this is true too. The fight happens on how much this is valid, or how much weight those truly have, because... we are all biased
Now shippers being shippers, I think we all have different ideas about what Aerith knows. I think that at the start of the game, she knows much less than by the end, for example. I take her "every time they (the whispers) touch me, I lose a part of myself" or something alike, and then that she is lost in a maze. I think they overload her with information, albeit not necessarily wanting to share it with her, and she loses part of what makes her "Aerith" to become more her Cetra-self.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
odekopeko
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Peko
I can agree with this line of thinking (bolded part) if we were only discussing the OG FF7, but the Remake seems to be approaching this differently. I don't know if this is because I played the Remake first, but I don't see him favoring Aerith over Tifa (or any one over the other) this time around. I was very surprised by how much they actually took away from CxA, and how much extra padding was given to CxT in this Midgar part alone.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
I'm sorry that I missed this earlier - thanks for the welcome!
I never saw that myself; Aerith seems to be looking directly at Cloud to me. I think this angle just makes it easier to show one of her arms is outstretched (holding Cloud’s cheek).
Assuming I found an accurate translation for MotP, I have to disagree:
Aerith starts to doubt Cloud's identity upon Sephiroth’s revelation, and she starts thinking of everything that knows about Cloud. Zack, who knew the real Cloud, recognizes Cloud from Aerith's recollections and ‘woke up’. That in and of itself is proof that even if Aerith didn’t have the full picture, she knew enough of the real Cloud to legitimately love him.
Chiming in to say that that scene is Zack recognizing himself in what Aerith perceives as being "Cloud" IE: Her image of Cloud is muddled, as Cloud's own self image was at the time.
Pre-Lifestream and Post-Lifestream Cloud are different people. But "Post-Lifestream Cloud" is aware of what Pre-lifestream Cloud does and often interjects or asserts himself. Even the remake reinforces this by having Cloud edit out contradictory information that would harm his shell persona, like Zack's name, and by still having his conversation to himself before waking up in Sector 5's church.
As you mention, this doesn't mean Cloud will necessarily feel differently about people he met while in this altered state, but you should not pretend that he's exactly the same before and after.
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
Oh, I definitely agree! I was referring to OG alone there ( but this is the Remake thread hehe my bad! I should have been more specific).
I can understand their reasoning and the main purpose of having OG!Cloud favoring Aerith back then as much as I can understand their reason for changing it (by 'equating' both girls) here in the Remake.
Things just aren't going to hit the player in the same way as they did before, and now they have a lot more time and a much broader view of where they should to go from here, so these changes are probably happening to accommodate all of this.
Purple
Charmed
Okay, I missed out on a lot and haven’t completely read everything I missed but...
I don’t see how Tifa mentioning Aerith in her resolution scene takes away from Cloti. If anything, I think it’s kinda cute that he calls Cloud on it, that he really wasn’t smooth as he wants Tifa to perceive him (“I knew there’s something weird going on, you buying flowers”). That she knows that it was probably Aerith who insisted that Cloud buy a flower which is true. That’s how I read it anyway. Basically to me, it’s not a point taken away from Cloti and not proof that Cloud is in love with Aerith. Because at the end of the day, Cloud still gave the flower to Tifa. How will it ever be a proof of Clerith romance if he gave the flower to Tifa and it’s not like Tifa forced him to (“A guy can change, has been five years”). I can’t wrap my regular sized brain around it.
Just my humble two cents
Re: Brianna’s insight, she does have a lot of interesting bits to share since she’s a streamer and I suppose she’d naturally gravitate towards Aerith and Clerith. If Britt was a streamer too I’m sure we’d hear tons of pro Cloti insight too.
I don’t see how Tifa mentioning Aerith in her resolution scene takes away from Cloti. If anything, I think it’s kinda cute that he calls Cloud on it, that he really wasn’t smooth as he wants Tifa to perceive him (“I knew there’s something weird going on, you buying flowers”). That she knows that it was probably Aerith who insisted that Cloud buy a flower which is true. That’s how I read it anyway. Basically to me, it’s not a point taken away from Cloti and not proof that Cloud is in love with Aerith. Because at the end of the day, Cloud still gave the flower to Tifa. How will it ever be a proof of Clerith romance if he gave the flower to Tifa and it’s not like Tifa forced him to (“A guy can change, has been five years”). I can’t wrap my regular sized brain around it.
Just my humble two cents
Re: Brianna’s insight, she does have a lot of interesting bits to share since she’s a streamer and I suppose she’d naturally gravitate towards Aerith and Clerith. If Britt was a streamer too I’m sure we’d hear tons of pro Cloti insight too.
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Master Bates
Do you enjoy your life?
- AKA
- Mr. Koiwai
You shippers conveniently disregarding Sephiroth again.
