SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
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Torrie
astray ay-ay-ay
I've been thinking about it for a while. Maybe it's just that we don't have an accurate English equivalent for the k-word - I'm pretty sure we don't because whenever we translate such abstract/subjective ideas, nuances always get lost on the way. Anyway, I'm inclined to say that Aerith does love Cloud, but it's not the "I want to put my face on your face in a sexy way" kind of love, but rather "I want to live my life and have you in it". It's more of an attachment in terms of shared experience, emotional links, and support, but sadly, most people tend to interpret everything through the lens of romance.
KindOfBlue
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From what I gather, it’s either “sweetheart”, “beloved”, or “lover”, and out of all of those, “lover” in English has a more explicitly romantic or physical implication and since Cloud and Aerith never actually make it that far even if they do like each other, I’m more inclined towards “beloved”. Either way, both Tifa and Aerith are described with that word at some point so I feel like that particular argument is a stalemate.
I also noticed some people bringing up the description of Cloud’s feelings for Tifa discovered in the Lifestream being “dim”/“faint”/“fleeting” etc. Does anybody have any insight into how best to interpret that? Because people who point this out don’t seem to also recognize several quotes from the same creators talking about Cloud and Tifa confirming mutual romantic feelings for each other and the quotes about Cloud living happily with Tifa afterwards. I was surprised that posters in the Reddit thread I posted rarely referenced them because that’s generally how these arguments seem to go.
Not that I don’t think Cloud had feelings for Aerith and vice versa, but I really don’t buy into the idea of Cloud wanting to live happily with Aerith in the afterlife or something. Hell, I don’t even believe in Zack and Aerith being together in the afterlife. They’re dead...maybe.
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So what is the debate about in this exactly though? I have finished watching the youtube videos of the compilation and AC:C and I don't see why this is even still a debate. Aerith is dead, Tifa is not. It is either Tifa or nobody, why is there so much polarization about this?
KindOfBlue
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I think the most rabid participants of this debate are obsessed with proving that there’s some kind of “winner”, so they’ll do anything possible to prove that he only likes one, or likes one more than the other, or that only one pairing was the “intended” couple (whatever the hell that means).
Unless the remake shows Cloud settling down with one of them without any room whatsoever to pretend it’s totally platonic, this will keep going on. Hell, even after they do it, there will still be debates. People will claim it doesn’t count and they’ll demand some kind of change because they don’t like the outcome (why does this scenario sound eerily familiar?).
Ryushikaze
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We actually do have words for specific types of love in English, they're just clunky. Agape, Eros, etc. Anyways, Koi is more passionate love, Ai is more generic (You can Ai your girlfriend or your sister but you better not Koi your sister), and the sentence in which it's used is talking about Cloud as being a lot of things to her, and yes, the context absolutely suggests she views Cloud as her beloved, or did, anyways, past tense and passed tense etc.
Actually, Aerith is never referred to as Koibito AFAIK. She refers to Cloud as such, and Tifa is refered to as being "many things to many people" including someone's koibito in Reunion Files.
IIRC, the kanji involved means "hard to see" and while dim might be appropriate, hazy or fuzzy might also work, since it is mentioned in the context of recovering repressed memories.
Zack and Aerith die happily in the afterlife. More serious I do think it's plausible Aerith's ghost is still kicking around watching over people, and Zack is kicking around with her to help out because why not I guess.
KindOfBlue
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That’s interesting because I’ve seen years worth of posts from a certain infamous Cloud x Aerith shipper (you know the one) insisting on the word “fleeting” suggesting that Cloud’s feelings for Tifa lasted for a short time and went away. Doesn’t really match up with all the other quotes about Cloud and Tifa co confirming their feelings match under the Highwind so I wasn’t sure if “fleeting” was accurate. The other possibilities seem to make more sense but I want to be as impartial as possible.
I thought everybody becomes part of the Lifestream and Cetra can hold off on returning to the planet for a bit?
Wait so this is basically who Cloud actually loved more? I mean ok, there is only one in the story where it was confirmed the feelings between the two were mutual, that should of deaded the arguement right there.
I mean ok going by what actually happened in the game and the backstory, the overwhelming amount of evidence is he more than likely would have ended up with Tifa one way or another. Not saying he wasn't attracted to Aerith but an attraction does not equal love, and I'm not juvenile enough to think he would completely lose the lifelong attraction he had for Tifa because him and Aerith were chummy for 1 to 2 weeks and he didn't even get a kiss let alone smash. I've been attracted to plenty of women who I never cared if I ever saw again.
Tifa is that girl that from your home that you have always wanted like his fucking unicorn but the timing was never right(this is mostly on Cloud and his weak ass behavior), Aerith is that girl you date in college who is fun, probably great in bed, and turns you out and turns you on, but long term it won't work out because as soon as he spots his unicorn again he is gonna go after her again, I've seen this happen in real life on multiple occasions. A woman may take a mans attention for a moment, but a mans heart is always gonna be where a mans heart is gonna be and he will always gravitate back to his heart. I don't know I'm just looking at this situation and these characters from my real life experiences. Aerith honestly was probably setting herself up for failure.
Honestly I think the love triangle discussion ought to be does Cloud even deserve either of these women, because honestly they both can do much better, hell Aerith already had better in Zack. Zack is to Cloud, what Target is to Dollar Tree, there aint no comparison lol. Cloud half of the time is a waste of a man with his constant pity parties and woe is me attitude, and the other half he is being an asshole for no reason because he doesn't know how to properly socialize and make connections. Tifa and Aerith are both crazy for liking this weak ass dude. Lmao
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eleamaya
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LMAO, did you seriously bring a crap that said FF7 is a love story between Cloud and Aerith? I can't believe it. Even if Cloud and Aerith in OG have a romantic narrative to push the tragedy of her death, we still don't say FF7 as a love story. It's so cheap.
I'm not contradicting myself when I posted this:
Aerith had hard times moving on, doesnt mean she can't do in the end. Girl consciously knows she has to move forward because he died, but it's hard. According to her farewell monologue in FF 30th Anniversary exhibition, she even felt guilty to love someone new (while we probably could imagine Zack would not mind about it if his ghost was around). Case of Lifestream White just confirms that she had genuinely loved Cloud romantically. But it doesn't mean she doesn't love Zack anymore, there's no statement to disprove her love for Zack except in Benny's material which is not canon. They're both dead still joking about adopting Kadaj and Cloud, if this isn't a banter between lovers (equal to Cloti adopting Denzel and raising Marlene), idk anymore.
FYI, in Japanese, "koibito" doesn't have to be a mutual lover, it can be onesided and you even can call your KPOP idol you love as "koibito" as well, so translating it always depends on the context. Actually, Japan people use "boifurendo / garuufurendo" more for mutual lovers (and in an active relationship). So far, there are four "koibito" lines ever mentioned in Compilation, I put it by story timeline order:
- Crisis Core Complete Guide: "The two characters deeply involved with Aerith are Zack, who would become her koibito, and Tseng, her guardian." --> Zack wrote about Aerith in his letter to his parents using the word "garuufurendo". The game chart in FF7 10th Anniversary Ultimania shown a mutual arrow of "koui/favor/crush" between them. So, given that context, "koibito" is better translated as "lover". (and) Crisis Core: FF7 Ultimania: "They're in a lovers-like relationship"--> ふたりは恋人のような仲になる . This one is blatantly mutual so it's translated as lovers.
- FFVII Remake: "Is Tifa (your) koibito?" --> The EN dub translate it as "girlfriend." And I think Aerith really expect it straightly to be like that. That's why Cloud answers "no, it's hard to explain" because him and Tifa indeed aren't in a relationship in the context although he has feeling for her. Or, if it was "beloved" then it means Cloud is confused about his own feeling because of his SOLDIER!Persona, that's why he says "no, it's hard to explain."
- Case of Lifestream White: "Cloud is her friend, a koibito. A symbol to be protected."--> The official english translation of the novella endorsed by Nojima on his tweet translated "koibito" as "more than a friend, for she had loved him" given the context that the translator must've understood the story, not just translating it literally because Aerith died before anything about her and Cloud could've happened more than having the feelings. It's still a similar narrative as "beloved" as TLS team translated it here.
- Advent Children The Reunion Files: "There are many dimensions of Tifa's character. She is like a mother, also a koibito and an ally in the battle"--> The official english translation itself translates it as "sweetheart." So, given the context in the movie, it can be read as "She is like Marlene & Denzel's mother, also Cloud's sweetheart and an AVALANCHE's ally in the battle."
Lifestream has no concept of afterlife, your soul and memory are decomposed into it as well as your physical body is decomposed into the soil. As for Zack and Aerith, given the context of "special/irreplaceable existence" describing them in Ultimania and Guide Book, the presence (stay by his/her side) whatever the form it is, is all the matter.... until they're completely merged into the Lifestream as they choose to. And as new life is reborn from Lifestream as well, heck, they might've turned into the flowers blooming in all wasteland by the time Cloud and Tifa die old.
According to Case of Lifestream White, yeah, Aerith can maintain her selfhood because of her being a Cetra. The devs never explain about Zack so far, only that aside from Cetra, Aerith found fragments of consciousness she's familiar with (and that's pitifully a few in number so it must be including Zack). I guess Zack has potency like Sephiroth since he must have a strong will to help Planet as a hero would do, but he already accepted his fate and has been absorbed. So when his love, Aerith, needs assistance in lifestream, and his bestfriend, Cloud, needs assistance in upper world; he could reform himself from fragments to the man we know appeared in ACC. But it won't be long. If Sephiroth isn't returning to threaten the Planet anymore, if Aerith herself is also ready to be a part of Lifestream, Zack undoubtedly will follow.
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Cat on Mars
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For the confused:
in textual criticism there is something called, in fact, authorial intent. It's the notion that an author put things in a story with an especific intention, usually to convey a theme or express an idea. Which makes sense since any work of fiction is the product of the author's choices.
So "intended pairing" would mean " this characters' relationship was set up as romantic in nature", usually as conclusion of the story.
Now, if some people use this expression to mean "true", then it's wrong. It only means the author or authors wanted it in their story.
edit: typos, as always.
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KindOfBlue
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The feelings are mutual in both cases, which is why people resort to arguing about who he loves more. The difference is one of them doesn’t go far enough for those feelings to be expressed and the other one does. Can’t really argue about who he ends up with since one of them is disqualified from that point. And considering Aerith left enough of an impact on Cloud for him to feel guilty about her years later, it gives people enough room to interpret the story as Cloud pining for Aerith while living with Tifa.
From what I gathered, we all mostly seem to be on the same page even if we have our own preferences, so I figured the thread would be more interesting (at least, about as interesting as this tired debate can be, anyways) with some hot takes. ?
I must say, I expected WAY more romance from the way people would discuss this game online years before I played it myself. I won’t say it’s unimportant because it definitely has a purpose but there’s soooo much more than that, as I’m sure we can all agree.
Yeah, a few people imply that Cloud and Aerith was “supposed to be” or “intended to be, but I’m like if that was true, they’d be together!
Eerie
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I think it was very clear when the devs stated that because Aerith would die, then they created Tifa so Cloud wouldn't end up alone, that it was their authorial intent there. This statement alone should have ended the LTD right here and there. And the way they inserted her and split Tifareth's role is very telling too; they made sure that she'd be the only one able to help Cloud because he already loved her!
I think this is partly why they made AC:C; not for the LTD in itself, but for Cloud - he's the one they made the Complete version for, because they saw that people misunderstood their work, and they didn't like that. So they added a lot of scenes with Zack, with him talking, with Tifa, to show more what he was going through. In the end he says it himself, he feels guilty, which is natural considering how Aerith died - and he was her bodyguard! He has the same guilt when Zack died, or when Tifa was wounded in the church - the wolf appears every time, and it represents his guilt. The fact that people want to paint it as romantic is not something that can be helped, but Cloud is going through just more than just a romantic hiccup for Aerith then. Plus he calls her "mother", so there's that too. Usually when a character calls another one "mother", that kind of kills any romantic vibe...
I think this is partly why they made AC:C; not for the LTD in itself, but for Cloud - he's the one they made the Complete version for, because they saw that people misunderstood their work, and they didn't like that. So they added a lot of scenes with Zack, with him talking, with Tifa, to show more what he was going through. In the end he says it himself, he feels guilty, which is natural considering how Aerith died - and he was her bodyguard! He has the same guilt when Zack died, or when Tifa was wounded in the church - the wolf appears every time, and it represents his guilt. The fact that people want to paint it as romantic is not something that can be helped, but Cloud is going through just more than just a romantic hiccup for Aerith then. Plus he calls her "mother", so there's that too. Usually when a character calls another one "mother", that kind of kills any romantic vibe...
That's the thing, when has it ever been said that Cloud has mutual feelings for Aerith. I played the Remake and then came back and played the OG game bro bro. In the remake I don't see it at all, and there isn't anywhere near as much romance in the original FF7 like people try to let on and most of it happens after Aerith dies, but I can still see it in the original far more than the remake.
In the remake though, there aint no way you can convince me Cloud really like's Aerith as much as people think. When Elmyra made Cloud promise to sneak out and not speak to Aerith again he made the promise with ZERO hesitation and was 100% intent on keeping that promise. Do you think Zack ever would have made that promise to Elmyra, even if he had no intention of keeping it? Hell Tifa's dad didn't even ask he TOLD Cloud to stay away, and we see Cloud didn't listen to him, but Cloud genuinely looked like 'Not this chick again' when he sneqks off and Aerith is waiting for him on the path back to sector 7. When he catches Aerith when she stumbles and is about to fall on their way back to the sector 5 slums and he says 'Never a dull moment with you' and she says 'is that a compliment?' he rolls his eyes turns and walks away and says 'not really' cause he really meant that bruh lmao. I got the impression that Cloud found Aerith annoying as hell, and his whole demeanor towards her was one of 'I just want this girl to leave me the hell alone.', it's easy for me to see it because this game was excellent at body language and facial expressions it's a very underrated aspect of this game. My wife was watching me play this and thought I was watching a TV show until she saw me actually playing the game. Up until that Playground scene where Aerith mentions Zack and Cloud all of a sudden has an episode and he says nah never heard of him, then he gets a little warmer towards her, it's almost like her mentioning Zack flipped a switch somewhere in there or something.
Cloud is a nice guy at heart and he was technically Aerith's bodyguard, of course he'll go rescue her. He went back to rescue Jessie twice, and Cloud basically called her a thirsty thot to her face lol. I mean Cloud has a history of developing mental issues when he feels like he failed. When he failed to save Tifa as kids, he started lashing out at everyone else and getting into fights all the time, he felt like he was hopeless and weak. He failed to get into SOLDIER and hid in shame and once again felt hopeless and weak furthering his spiral into madness. Zack dies and Cloud in his grief develops multiple full blown mental illnesses because of it. Yet because he once again felt like a failure(which in all honesty Cloud is a failure) because he couldn't protect Aerith of course he was in a full blown depression coupled on top of the fact he thought he was dying. He wasn't sad about Aerith in AC because of romantic reasons, he was sad because he was reminded once again that he is a failure and he was dying. That is obvious as hell to me, I only watched the AC:C version though, maybe the original was slightly different in what it was trying to convey.
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KindOfBlue
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I feel like On the Way to a Smile should’ve been IN Advent Children especially “Case of Tifa”, it would’ve certainly made up for some of the movie’s weak characterization
The devs have said that Cloud likes them both and that they both like him, how strong those feelings are is up for debate I suppose. I do think people overestimate how deep Cloud and Aerith’s relationship is because to me, the tragedy of it is that they could have gone deeper but don’t get to.
Still though, he’s developing feelings for Aerith during a point in his life where he’s forgotten memories that are specifically tied to his feelings for Tifa. I imagine that raises an ethical concern for Aerith, who is already torn about Zack at this point, hence why she tells him not to fall in love with her.
Of course, that won’t stop them from developing feelings for each other anyways but those feelings never have the chance to fully develop not just because of the obvious reason, Aerith’s death, but that Cloud wasn’t his truest self the entire time they knew each other.
I don’t think that invalidates Cloud’s feelings for Aerith or Tifa nor do I think Aerith’s feelings for Zack or Cloud can be discounted either, loving more than one person is certainly possible. But Cloud doesn’t remember how exactly he feels about Tifa...yet. We’ll see where they go with this and I would hope that this time, things are a lot more definite. I don’t even care what they make more definite, just something.
KindOfBlue
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So I’m just chiming back in because apparently, the person who started that Reddit thread that I posted here then tweeted it at what I presume is some kind of shipping account (I try to avoid Twitter as much as possible precisely because of stuff like this and I only ever lurk Reddit occasionally):
Then another account that I see almost every time I happen to look at anything FF7 related on Twitter retweeted it:
I’m just really confused, what exactly do people gain from this kind of thing?
Then another account that I see almost every time I happen to look at anything FF7 related on Twitter retweeted it:
I’m just really confused, what exactly do people gain from this kind of thing?
a_apple 2.0
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Cat on Mars
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Does... this person know that they aren't real people?totally not a fanboy or a shipper said:
Graymouse
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@KindOfBlue I ran into that particular tag a couple of times, when I dared to go on the cesspool called Twitter when FF7R was first released. That particular Twitter user is hardcore, almost on the borderline of obsession with Cloud X Aerith. I would steer clear of it for you own sanity. Besides, I wouldn't worry too much about what they say anyways. They just like to get people who have different opinions than their own all riled up. It isn't worth your time or energy.
Luckily, we have a lot of Cloud X Aerith's on this forum that like to engage into a respectful conversation and value other peoples opinions than their own. I am always thankful for that.
Luckily, we have a lot of Cloud X Aerith's on this forum that like to engage into a respectful conversation and value other peoples opinions than their own. I am always thankful for that.
This is really all I want. I'm new to this fandom since I didn't start playing this until the remake, but that ambiguous leave it up to your imagination approach in storytelling in gaming is played out, cliche, boring and honestly it is fucking a lazy way to tell a story, and it is why I'm turned off Western style RPGs because they are FLOODED with it. I don't know I like to read books so I like concrete answers to plot points not murky vague semi answers.
I aint some hardcore Cloti shipper or anything, I really only ship it because it is the only one that is not only confirmed by the creators, but also the one that has the overwhelming amount of evidence that it actually happened. If the creators of this game came out tomorrow and said 'Claerith' is the canon ship guess which one I would ship, REGARDLESS if I feel she is a good fit for Cloud personality wise(I don't feel like she is).
I'm just tired of that lazy brand of storytelling, and pick your own adventure. Pick a side stick with a side don't play the fence on it. I won't hold the original FF7 accountable for it because it was released in the 90's, but I'm with you Square needs to pick one in the remake. It is 2020 almost 2021 this shit needs to be put to bed already.
Edit: I still think both of these girls can do better than Cloud too; hell if Tifa and Aerith hooked up they would be better for each other. Look at Cloud in AC:C? You think if Tifa woulf have died instead his relationship dynamic with Aerith wouldn't have been like the one he had with Tifa? Hell it probably would have been WORSE honestly.
Ryushikaze
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@KindOfBlue I ran into that particular tag a couple of times, when I dared to go on the cesspool called Twitter when FF7R was first released. That particular Twitter user is hardcore, almost on the borderline of obsession with Cloud X Aerith. I would steer clear of it for you own sanity. Besides, I wouldn't worry too much about what they say anyways. They just like to get people who have different opinions than their own all riled up. It isn't worth your time or energy.
Luckily, we have a lot of Cloud X Aerith's on this forum that like to engage into a respectful conversation and value other peoples opinions than their own. I am always thankful for that.
If I am not mistaken, that is another on again off again member of the forums who is I think done with her section ban by now.
KindOfBlue
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I’ll try to tread a lot more carefully...I’d definitely mute these kinds of accounts if I had a Twitter but since I don’t, they just pop up when I search for FF7 related stuff by the hashtags
I’m just really confused as to why these kinds of shippers have to go out of their way to prove they “won” something, like damn, is it not enough to just appreciate whatever you have without misrepresenting the story to win Internet points?
For Square, I don’t think it was ever about picking one pairing over the other because contrary to popular belief, the player doesn’t actually get to decide what Cloud’s feelings are, just his actions. The devs talked about the novelty of having two love interests so I figured they wanted to tell two love stories (and I use that term lightly).
One story goes one way, the other story goes another way. Which one you like more is up to you. But they’re both part of the story, they just go in very different directions. And some people just aren’t satisfied with the direction “their” story went in, or they want answers to questions about “their” story that ultimately don’t matter because as long as “their” story is more important than “the other” story, they can...sleep better? I dunno, I really don’t understand what these people get out of this. I just love discussing these characters and their relationships.
What exactly is the basis for establishing a “canon” ship anyways? Because everybody seems to have their own idea of what makes a ship “canon” and something tells me not everybody can be right.
Interesting. I’m still learning about the “lore”, so to speak, of the FF7 fanbase and it’s more...eccentric characters. My morbid curiosity makes me really interested in learning about some of the more colorful members of the fanbase you guys have dealt with as longtime fans, but it’s probably best not to open that can of worms.
Are you asking me what are my criteria or what is the purpose?
KindOfBlue
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It was more of a rhetorical question about criteria, but sure! Like me for example, I dunno if I would say I have criteria per se but I tend to be one of those who prefers to draw clear lines between canon and headcanon. I guess a better way to phrase the question would be, what does a pairing need in order to be considered “canon”?
Do both parties need to like each other? Because if so, both couples would be canon regardless of who the player prefers or which Gold Saucer & under the Highwind scene the player gets.
Does the couple need to be officially labeled boyfriend and girlfriend? Because if so, neither couple fits that requirement.
Does the couple at least need to have the potential to become official? Because in that case, only one of them has a chance to happen in the future while the other...well, doesn’t.
Does one romance need to be confirmed to be stronger or more preferred than the other? Because there has never been a clear answer on this no matter what shippers say, and I doubt it’ll ever be specifically addressed because it really doesn’t friggin’ matter.
Does the couple need to verbally communicate their feelings? Because the closest one couple gets is a dream sequence in the remake in which feelings are implied (obviously there, but still implied), and the other couple gets an extended sequence in the OG through one of them’s consciousness where they both learn they’ve liked each other for years.
Does the couple need to physically express romantic feelings? Because only one couple is implied to have done so, but it’s unknown what they did. They totally did the nasty though.
Does the couple need to share the words “I love you” or exchange a kiss onscreen? Neither have done so, but that morbidly curious spirit I mentioned earlier would get a real kick out of watching the internet explode if they actually went there.
Eerie
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Actually, I think Cloud and Tifa are perfect for each other, because they both have that mindset of wanting to live a normal life. Cloud was depressed and on the verge of dying in AC/C, but he learned to enjoy his life there and the Reminiscence gives a hint that he's now able to be happy without feeling depressed (which was the case before, as he feared not being able to protect his beloved ones, aka his family). I'm really happy they made AC:C, for all it's worth it's wayyyyyy better than AC (which did anger me, regarding Cloud's characterisation), and truly shows how much Tifa and the kids mean to him.