SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
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eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
You know, although I'm a Zerith, this has been always my personal view of Clerith ship --mainly from Aerith's POV-- that I write anywhere:
Aerith developing genuine feelings for Cloud because she knows Zack has passed away (Nomura confirms), thus, struggle to move on and ended up being in love with Cloud in the process (regardless of his feelings for her). The starting point of her ready to let go of Zack's shadow in Cloud is on Gondola date when she wants to meet the real Cloud, ready to love someone new. To her, Cloud is more than a friend she deeply cares for—a second man she loves. And that's also because I believe Aerith's gondola date route is the canon one so it's inevitable.
(I dont count Maiden, so I believe she treasure all feelings equally. She loves both Ifalna & Elmyra. She loves both Zack & Cloud. Cherishing the dead in her memories and creating new memories with those who are alive and care for her)
And as a favorite character, I interpret her character arc as moving on and accepting fate, not only from the lost love she keeps telling herself that he is still alive, but also from her Cetra role since it makes people see her weird. Her loneliness comes from the missing boyfriend and being the only Cetra that no one understand her all those years. Having an adventure with comrade slowly ease her loneliness, she comes to have a new love, she also loves all of them that she wants to fight to protect them all and the planet. She's being selfless to come to Forgotten Capital alone but it's just an easy task (Kitase confirms) so she would return to them when it's done.
That's all my understanding.
But then, in this Remake Project, I have to reconstruct it.
In Remake ending, she's already being powerful using her Cetra power against Sephiroth.
In Rebirth, The game directs you to get Tifa's date when affection point between the girls is equal. There's also a dreamsphere date she has with Cloud --which it's her subconscious that every shopkeeper tell them not match contrast to what they say when she went on date with Zack, that Cloud himself see her as nakama, that she even question if this liking was that "liking"-- right before her death as if it's her last attempt to know if Cloud reciprocate her feelings while she's supposed to pray for Holy that represents Planet and everyone she loves living there. And that the date itself is like screaming at her, "this is wrong, all wrong."
JP script shows that Cloud would love to create new memories with her (as nakama of course). To me, that's what Aerith is supposed to do, not by recreating memories she ever had with the lost love with the new one. It's trying to replacing by all means, the opposite of creating two different memories she can cherish together. But maybe this is why Toriyama said that:
"You can't fall in love with me.
Even if you do, it's not real (just your imagination)."
is her also talking to herself.
And as I said before, I dont like the game make her somehow heavily centered around Cloud at that last moment. It's a little selfish. And it kills how she's supposed to fight the fate to the very end, that she wanna live against what fate dictate to her, that she doesn't even think to dying although knowing the risk, that she will come back to her comrades and tell her feelings to Cloud later after she finishes her duty.
I still need to see Rebirth version of Cosmo Canyon and Temple of Ancient to understand her in terms of Cetra race. But in terms of her life romance, should I be happy that she can't let go of Zack? In term of her character arc, I'm not happy. But this remind me of this quote:
"We can't move on without closure" (D.B Russel -- Crime Scene Investigation)
D.B Russel said that as he's very determine to solve the murder case for the parents who lose their son. This said son had been missing for 10 years when his remains was found. But without knowing what happens to him, Russel sympathize they can't move on yet. I think this is same as Aerith knowing that Zack was dead but NOT knowing where he had been in 5 years not replying her letters (Man, I hope Cissnei had told Zack's parents the truth too). It's only Cloud who can give her closure, no one else. So before he regains his true self back, Aerith can't move on yet. It has to be him who initiate since Aerith keep being hesitant to ask, not wanting to know and runaway from the truth. So it's fresh to see that even in gondola date, SOLDIER!Cloud attempts to tell Aerith that he knows Zack, although it's through girl talks with Tifa. And although she meets his true self if she was alive, she still couldn't end up with him because his real self has always loved someone else since they were kids (though I never expect that Rebirth make Cloud reject her already).
That's what I have to add that in Aerith's portrayal. A new flaw in her character.
And when she meets the truth as she watches from the Lifestream, also reunite with the first love she can't move on from; that's when she cherishes Cloud both as her friend and as someone she had loved.
Okay, I'm just rambling here.
Thank you for listening to my peep talks.
Aerith developing genuine feelings for Cloud because she knows Zack has passed away (Nomura confirms), thus, struggle to move on and ended up being in love with Cloud in the process (regardless of his feelings for her). The starting point of her ready to let go of Zack's shadow in Cloud is on Gondola date when she wants to meet the real Cloud, ready to love someone new. To her, Cloud is more than a friend she deeply cares for—a second man she loves. And that's also because I believe Aerith's gondola date route is the canon one so it's inevitable.
(I dont count Maiden, so I believe she treasure all feelings equally. She loves both Ifalna & Elmyra. She loves both Zack & Cloud. Cherishing the dead in her memories and creating new memories with those who are alive and care for her)
And as a favorite character, I interpret her character arc as moving on and accepting fate, not only from the lost love she keeps telling herself that he is still alive, but also from her Cetra role since it makes people see her weird. Her loneliness comes from the missing boyfriend and being the only Cetra that no one understand her all those years. Having an adventure with comrade slowly ease her loneliness, she comes to have a new love, she also loves all of them that she wants to fight to protect them all and the planet. She's being selfless to come to Forgotten Capital alone but it's just an easy task (Kitase confirms) so she would return to them when it's done.
That's all my understanding.
But then, in this Remake Project, I have to reconstruct it.
In Remake ending, she's already being powerful using her Cetra power against Sephiroth.
In Rebirth, The game directs you to get Tifa's date when affection point between the girls is equal. There's also a dreamsphere date she has with Cloud --which it's her subconscious that every shopkeeper tell them not match contrast to what they say when she went on date with Zack, that Cloud himself see her as nakama, that she even question if this liking was that "liking"-- right before her death as if it's her last attempt to know if Cloud reciprocate her feelings while she's supposed to pray for Holy that represents Planet and everyone she loves living there. And that the date itself is like screaming at her, "this is wrong, all wrong."
JP script shows that Cloud would love to create new memories with her (as nakama of course). To me, that's what Aerith is supposed to do, not by recreating memories she ever had with the lost love with the new one. It's trying to replacing by all means, the opposite of creating two different memories she can cherish together. But maybe this is why Toriyama said that:
"You can't fall in love with me.
Even if you do, it's not real (just your imagination)."
is her also talking to herself.
And as I said before, I dont like the game make her somehow heavily centered around Cloud at that last moment. It's a little selfish. And it kills how she's supposed to fight the fate to the very end, that she wanna live against what fate dictate to her, that she doesn't even think to dying although knowing the risk, that she will come back to her comrades and tell her feelings to Cloud later after she finishes her duty.
I still need to see Rebirth version of Cosmo Canyon and Temple of Ancient to understand her in terms of Cetra race. But in terms of her life romance, should I be happy that she can't let go of Zack? In term of her character arc, I'm not happy. But this remind me of this quote:
"We can't move on without closure" (D.B Russel -- Crime Scene Investigation)
D.B Russel said that as he's very determine to solve the murder case for the parents who lose their son. This said son had been missing for 10 years when his remains was found. But without knowing what happens to him, Russel sympathize they can't move on yet. I think this is same as Aerith knowing that Zack was dead but NOT knowing where he had been in 5 years not replying her letters (Man, I hope Cissnei had told Zack's parents the truth too). It's only Cloud who can give her closure, no one else. So before he regains his true self back, Aerith can't move on yet. It has to be him who initiate since Aerith keep being hesitant to ask, not wanting to know and runaway from the truth. So it's fresh to see that even in gondola date, SOLDIER!Cloud attempts to tell Aerith that he knows Zack, although it's through girl talks with Tifa. And although she meets his true self if she was alive, she still couldn't end up with him because his real self has always loved someone else since they were kids (though I never expect that Rebirth make Cloud reject her already).
That's what I have to add that in Aerith's portrayal. A new flaw in her character.
And when she meets the truth as she watches from the Lifestream, also reunite with the first love she can't move on from; that's when she cherishes Cloud both as her friend and as someone she had loved.
Okay, I'm just rambling here.
Thank you for listening to my peep talks.
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That’s a good way to put it. I respect your input
I agree she is trying to move on.
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
I never watch The Greatest Showman, so when I saw Clotis tweet about it; I checked Wiki what it is then I understand the parallel. If those Cleriths were really aware of what kind of movie Nomura gets inspiration from, they should not cheer the theme song. It's unrequited love.
Thanks.That’s a good way to put it. I respect your input
Though, my point is...
Before Rebirth leaks, I see she's eventually able to move on despite struggling, because it's her character arc.
Now after Rebirth leaks (I still need to see the full context after it's released though), it turns out she can't do despite trying.
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Huh what’s the parallels for the greatest Showman? I never seen the movie either
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
Loren Allred got famous from doing the vocals for the song 'Never Enough' in the Greatest Showman. I don't actually think there are any parallels at all personally. But the character who sings the song in the Greatest Showman has her love unrequited. If there is any parallels - I believe it's just a coincidence. Loren Allred is just a very talented singer.
Maybe the parallel would be the love triangle between the protagonist, his wife/childhood friend and the singer. And yeah, it ends with unrequited love for the singer while the protagonist stays with his wife. I dont think the devs thought of that though. They probably just wanted to recreate the Never Enough scene with NPTK.
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
The main character is the singer's manager. He's stunned at her performance. During the concert tour, the singer is romantically attracted with him and even trying to make a move. His business make him distant from his family but he rejects her advances. His heart is loyal to his wife (who is also his childhood sweetheart---heck, even her father dont like him marrying her). At the end, he returns home to her and their children.
I think Nomura recreate the moment of her singing where everyone are stunned at her performance, including Barnum and his wife, which is perfect parallel if we get Tifa's date route.
I dont underestimate Nomura's here. By him advancing Cloti relationship in Rebirth, I think it's already telling as we later get the scene of Cloud reject Aerith's advance
Yeah definitely agree with your point of view. Obviously most of us haven't played this game yet so all we are going off are other people's leaks but (it seems like from GS she's saying she sees Cloud as his own person but then on the dream date she is imposing Cloud on her date she had with Zack which is the complete opposite of what she initially says, that is trying to recreate memories with her lost love with someone who is different yet shares similarities with Zack.
If a friend of mine lost her partner in life and then years later was gonna go on a date with someone new and told me what they had planned for their date was the exact same as their lost love I would tell them to cancel that date and that they are obviously not ready to move on.
Moving on would be creating new separate memories with a new person not recreating the same memories with essentially a stand in, showing she is most certainly over Zack.
The difference in all this is in the OG Zack didn't really have a depth and backstory but since OG they have built Zack up and his a character who stands on his own, who is popular and who we see by Aerith's side in AC. I can only guess they plan on reuniting them in some way next game so they have obviously changed the dynamic and feelings of Aerith.)
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
Yeah a parallel would be kind of weak anyways since Loren Allred isn't actually in the film. Like I get where they're going with it and it does kind of work - but I personally wouldn't draw on that parallel as though it were intentional.
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
Again I totally get where you're going with this because I love that film and am family with the dynamic. But I don't think that argument would do anyone any favours.
Honestly it's arguments like this that make people wary of shippers. There is a bunch of in-game stuff you can use to demonstrate a clear push for Cloti. Linking it all up to obscure stuff that could be a total coincidence is not a good argument. Unless the creators come out with that parallel being intentional - I would steer clear of using it and stick to the facts.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
If it's not an entry in the series, a guidebook, or at the very furthest an intra-company appearance where's it's intended to be understood as the same Character in a narrative (so FFT and Dissidia yes, Itadaki Street and KH no) then it's utterly immaterial to the matter at hand.
Also Greatest Showman is a great film but it's a complete whitewash of the actual Barnum and of Bailey.
aerith confessing in that moment still makes sense to me because she’s someone who makes the most out of the time she has with people, but I agree with you that I think they gave too much emphasis on her “status” with cloud, but i guess since she didn’t know she was gonna die, she wanted to know his feelings immediately, so she can look forward to whats next for her, whats next in life, after both zack and cloud? (since i do think her attraction for cloud was just an extension of her feelings for zack, and she might have realized this herself, so i think the narrative is more deliberate in showing that her romantic interest for cloud can’t be isolated or seen as a sign of her wanting to move on from zack, that’s why she’s confused on what type of “”like”” she feels for cloud, the line from the OG “i want to meet the real you” doesn’t necessarily mean she’s already moved on, or that she’s already met real cloud, it’s just expressing a desire) I don’t ship them but I still love the CA dynamic/friendship though, theyre definitely special to each other (they have a lot more similarities than people might think) and Aerith developing “genuine feelings” for him doesn’t have to be explicitly romantic for their canon friendship to be profound.
As a zerith shipper myself, this is why their deaths felt even more painful because both Z’s and A’s goals are never realized. Zack wanted to reunite with Aerith but didn’t; Aerith wanted to move on from loving a dead man but didn’t, both looked forward to their futures (kinda ironic that Zack wanted to hold on, and Aerith wanted to let go; death and time tears them apart respectively, but until the very end of their lives and even after they both die, its now almost irrefutable that their love for each other has never faltered …the unfaltering resolute love similar to what CT has) and even if they didn’t fulfill their biggest wishes, their most personal desires, they were still able to embody what it means to be hero and heroine (carry the burden and do what needs to be done), at their final moments, zack protected cloud and aerith summoned holy, though both their lives are cut short. ((Anyways, can’t wait for their reunion. Thank you for your essay btw it was very insightful))
As a zerith shipper myself, this is why their deaths felt even more painful because both Z’s and A’s goals are never realized. Zack wanted to reunite with Aerith but didn’t; Aerith wanted to move on from loving a dead man but didn’t, both looked forward to their futures (kinda ironic that Zack wanted to hold on, and Aerith wanted to let go; death and time tears them apart respectively, but until the very end of their lives and even after they both die, its now almost irrefutable that their love for each other has never faltered …the unfaltering resolute love similar to what CT has) and even if they didn’t fulfill their biggest wishes, their most personal desires, they were still able to embody what it means to be hero and heroine (carry the burden and do what needs to be done), at their final moments, zack protected cloud and aerith summoned holy, though both their lives are cut short. ((Anyways, can’t wait for their reunion. Thank you for your essay btw it was very insightful))
r_monk
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- RM
This is just me rambling again, but I find it a bit ironic that this time around, it's Aerith who has unrequited feelings for Cloud this time around. Back when I first played the game as a teen, I definitely saw Tifa as having somewhat unrequited feelings for Cloud (my stance changed a bit as I got older). The narrative that I had in my head and which I found tragic was that Cloud had loved Tifa as a youth, forgot about his feelings and meanwhile developed new feelings for Aerith. Tifa fell in love with Cloud over the course of the game and found out—unfortunately too late—that he used to feel that way about her. I walked away with the impression that the timing was never right for those two, and it was what I'd found compelling about them as a couple back when I was younger. So it's pretty wild to me that Cloud is at least somewhat aware of his longstanding feelings for Tifa despite his identity crisis and fucked up memory... meanwhile Aerith eventually falls in love with him, only for her feelings to not be reciprocated. Mind is kind of blown, honesly.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
They’re definitely leaving less to interpretation, true to the one interview.
r_monk
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- RM
Again, much much much respect to the writers. It must've been difficult (and will continue to be difficult) given the cultural significance of the LTD.
Maidenofwar
They/Them
I've been reading PhillyRebirth thread and nothing seems to suggest so far that Aerith character revolve around only Cloud or mens so far.
Infact as far as men goes
Infact as far as men goes
she even share with Tifa about her SA if you read Tales of Two Past you know what I mean and the guy Faz, can you imagine how Aerith must feel never having a friend to trust with that before and having Tifa now.
For me the bonds she is forming with Tifa and Red XIII, it's very gripping. I really like these friendships and a lot they are doing with them so far.now
For me the bonds she is forming with Tifa and Red XIII, it's very gripping. I really like these friendships and a lot they are doing with them so far.now
Empyrea
Pro Adventurer
The LTD keeping up like this for this long is insane to me. Like...just ship fanon? I ship fanon a lot cause I don't always like the canon pair (I'm looking at you, Magic Knight Rayearth anime, a childhood fave of mine).
That said, I used to think C/A was endgame. You know, Cloud being this awesome, sorta jerkish Ex-Soldier and Aerith being the special magical girl? The chance meeting with Cloud falling in her church? I will note that I was 14 at the time and was largely going off patterns from other works I experienced already, which were mostly soap operas...
Tifa was so in the background for Disc 1 that I didn't notice her. Aerith died and I still didn't. I started noticing her in the Northern Cave and it was there I started questioning the idea I had that the trip was Cloud going out for revenge for Aerith (which was fine with me cause the LI dying to fuel manpain was so tired to me even back then).
My suspicion that I misread the story came about at around Mideel, and then when the Lifestream sequence happened, I did whatever was the equivalent of a mental fistbump with the game cause it threw me in for a ride.
And that's me rambling about my first FF7 experience.
That said, I used to think C/A was endgame. You know, Cloud being this awesome, sorta jerkish Ex-Soldier and Aerith being the special magical girl? The chance meeting with Cloud falling in her church? I will note that I was 14 at the time and was largely going off patterns from other works I experienced already, which were mostly soap operas...
Tifa was so in the background for Disc 1 that I didn't notice her. Aerith died and I still didn't. I started noticing her in the Northern Cave and it was there I started questioning the idea I had that the trip was Cloud going out for revenge for Aerith (which was fine with me cause the LI dying to fuel manpain was so tired to me even back then).
My suspicion that I misread the story came about at around Mideel, and then when the Lifestream sequence happened, I did whatever was the equivalent of a mental fistbump with the game cause it threw me in for a ride.
And that's me rambling about my first FF7 experience.
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
I refer to her very last moment that I think it's centered around men (Cloud and Zack) as the dream-sphere date happen at that time. It's when her praying for holy but also think of "Oh I wanna confess my feelings before death, I wanna go on date for the last time."
I dont like it even if it also shows her cannot moving on from Zack (since I'm Zerith) but I accept this as her character flaw.
I've ever read this scenario too in 90s shounen manga. Aerith is not the only one in my experience and the guy also act as her dead boyfriend literally for a legacy. It's a soccer manga, the dead captain give the main character his jersey #10 but he's insecure if he meet that standard since media now look at him as new rising star replacing their captain's sudden death. His crush try to encourage him but they end up fighting (anime turns them being childhood friends btw). At this moment, the girlfriend of the dead captain enter. And she recreate the dates with him. He's attracted at her and become more confident as she encourage him, "You two is very similar, that's why he chose you. You can do it!" In later few match, it works but then he make a blunder as he try so hard to become like his senior, copying his technique. Then he realize he have to be himself, his own soccer technique, and ask her to not meet again. She cries and apologizes because she feels very lonely. At the end, he surpass his dear captain and bring the team win national tournament, carrying their dream together.
I talk about it on my blog post if you dont mind to read.
Awww, I just love this phrase.
Very star-cross lovers, right?
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Maidenofwar
They/Them
To clarify I didn't mean your post, but my own concerns and worries for her character I'd been puzzling over and from interpretations I'd read elsewhere.
Hix
Pro Adventurer
Honestly had this "date" not been exactly what had happened in Crisis Core, I'd maybe be a little upset. I haven't fully weighed in on this moment because I really want to see it in action and with context, but it's clear this date was still - after all these years - an intensely precious thing to Aerith, her most special experience.
She could have picked any moment to relive before death but picked specifically this one and it seems obvious to me that to relive this date she went with Cloud only because to do so with Zack would be impossible.
I say "she" could have picked any moment to relive, but actually it might be more accurate to say the devs could have picked any kind of date and they expressly went for this one. They brought back Zack, who died fighting to be with Aerith again and very clearly has not moved on. They keep stating and showing that Aerith herself has also not fully moved on from him. This was all done with intent and I'm willing to bet Zack and Aerith get their moment and moreso in part 3.
She could have picked any moment to relive before death but picked specifically this one and it seems obvious to me that to relive this date she went with Cloud only because to do so with Zack would be impossible.
I say "she" could have picked any moment to relive, but actually it might be more accurate to say the devs could have picked any kind of date and they expressly went for this one. They brought back Zack, who died fighting to be with Aerith again and very clearly has not moved on. They keep stating and showing that Aerith herself has also not fully moved on from him. This was all done with intent and I'm willing to bet Zack and Aerith get their moment and moreso in part 3.
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
Oh the real life Barnum was trash. Like absolutely, utterly trash.
Great, great film though.
thetriplerhyme
Pro Adventurer
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- thetriplerhyme
Just have to say this is very touchy ~ Zerith indeed very star crossed lovers~
This make sense on Remake's last scene
How Zack is trying so hard and Aerith knows its too late she's sad about it and stays where she is ( if you understand the metaphor of it .. she's can't let it go but can't move on either ) death indeed separates them.
Back in Remake I'm excited in Zack's return because he's absolutely awesome but in FF7Rebirth ( with all of the leaks) I somehow question ( A bit ) the point of devs returning him. I need to play it again and cry again for him.
