SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Empyrea]

All the CA bait is also giving my head a spin, too. The characters and the tone of the scene sometimes doesn't match and it opens up to not-so-pleasant alternative interpretations. Really, Aerith is getting the worst of it in that regard, I think. Sure, trying to recapture a lost love is tragic and can really pull on the heartstrings, but the way it's done also gives off vibes that doing that can come across as creepy to some if the person it's being done with is spoken for and/or isn't interested.

Re: the Aerith resolution... My impression of that was, "Lady, Cloud met you less than 72 hours ago. I really, really doubt he's already fallen in love with you. If I was in his shoes, that comment would've killed any interest I had in you."

 

[KindOfBlue]

Reminds me of when people used to say that Aerith’s chapter 14 resolution scene from Remake is actually “Cloud’s resolution”

 

[Ryeleigh]

There's been definite bait. Look at the song trailer. They almost got me until I took a step back and was like wait, are they really going to go this route after bringing Zack back? Probably not. And then the leaks happened, and it was Tifa that got the kiss.

While I'm happy I got my answer about Cloud's feelings, at the same time, the writers are making certain things confusing. They've chosen to not be ambiguous, so why the bait of some scenes? I can see why her red dress scene could be seen as romantic, or even the beach scene even though I personally didn't. The only things I can come up with are:

Trying to give CA shippers some scenes that can be painted in a romantic light.
Fueling discussions to make sure interest isn't lost.
They're trying to slam home the "love that could never be".
Some of the writers may like the CA romantic dynamic, or there's too many cooks in the kitchen.

I honestly thought they were going to go the ambiguous route with CA. But once they decided not to, why not just commit to that? Forget fueling the LTD, it just raises eyebrows in terms of the writing.

Or maybe all these scenes were trying to convey Aerith working out her feelings for Cloud.

Yes, bringing Zack back (after he died getting back to Aerith and protecting Cloud), showing him taking care of unconscious Aerith and Cloud, having flashbacks about him gushing about how much he loves her, and then showing interpretably romantic scenes with CA (while CT is non-optionally going on the route of explicit romance)... would definitely have been a choice, lol. I honestly can't see them doing that to any of the characters, especially when CT and ZA have been so firmly established.

So the baity moments (for the lack of a better term) with CA feel kind of unnecessary? And maybe even slightly mean if you're just baiting and giving false hope to fans? But on the other hand, it could be just a fan perception thing? There are stories that use romantic tropes and romantic framing to show that the platonic bond between two characters is just as important and powerful (and then people ship them anyway, lol.)

But I guess conclusively we will see in P3.

Re: the Aerith resolution... My impression of that was, "Lady, Cloud met you less than 72 hours ago. I really, really doubt he's already fallen in love with you. If I was in his shoes, that comment would've killed any interest I had in you."

Lol, that was my initial reaction too. Like, "Ooookay". slowly backs away But then I thought that she's talking to herself, Cloud and the audience so okay. Still awkward and off but if that's how the devs wanted to do it, okay.

 

[Hix]

So the baity moments (for the lack of a better term) with CA feel kind of unnecessary? And maybe even slightly mean if you're just baiting and giving false hope to fans? But on the other hand, it could be just a fan perception thing? There are stories that use romantic tropes and romantic framing to show that the platonic bond between two characters is just as important and powerful (and then people ship them anyway, lol.)

I think this is just a very difficult situation for the devs, honestly. They'll never please everyone, no matter what they do, especially people who have constructed for themselves an overview of the game that diverges wildly from the reality.

Could the devs have done it differently? Yeah I guess. They've fulfilled their promise to end the ambiguity - the kiss very much seals the deal - but they still left behind fragments that can be open to interpretation and I can understand why some would feel baited (even if I would suggest one should turn to occam's razor and interpret said CA scenes as platonic in light of CT and ZA)

But assume they did go even further and gave Aerith none of these "baity" moments at all. That wouldn't be faithful to the OG, where she's also flirty and pushy, but more importantly, it perhaps would only enhance the ambiguity.

It's only through the way Cloud relates to Aerith's flirting that we appreciate how much he loves Tifa, the kiss means that much more now. Similarly, it's only through Cloud's rebuffing of Aerith's playful affections that she, and we, can come to appreciate how much she and Zack belong together. Without the CA moments we would miss all of that important character development and in return have only more questions about what could have been.

Narratively, I think the devs made the correct choice to forge ahead in this direction, even if I find the bait (the trailers in particular) to be distasteful.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I think this is just a very difficult situation for the devs, honestly. They'll never please everyone, no matter what they do, especially people who have constructed for themselves an overview of the game that diverges wildly from the reality.

Could the devs have done it differently? Yeah I guess. They've fulfilled their promise to end the ambiguity - the kiss very much seals the deal - but they still left behind fragments that can be open to interpretation and I can understand why some would feel baited (even if I would suggest one should turn to occam's razor and interpret said CA scenes as platonic in light of CT and ZA)

But assume they did go even further and gave Aerith none of these "baity" moments at all. That wouldn't be faithful to the OG, where she's also flirty and pushy, but more importantly, it perhaps would only enhance the ambiguity.

It's only through the way Cloud relates to Aerith's flirting that we appreciate how much he loves Tifa, the kiss means that much more now. Similarly, it's only through Cloud's rebuffing of Aerith's playful affections that she, and we, can come to appreciate how much she and Zack belong together. Without the CA moments we would miss all of that important character development and in return have only more questions about what could have been.

Narratively, I think the devs made the correct choice to forge ahead in this direction, even if I find the bait (the trailers in particular) to be distasteful.

That's true. I was thinking that myself, too. I mean, what else could the devs have done to show that this is platonic (gradience changing depending on the player's feelings, I guess)? That Aerith is playful and physically affectionate, and characters like her and Jessie like flustering Cloud because they think his reactions are funny and cute but it's not that serious.

Like, there's no way they could've had Cloud not interact with Aerith at all. And there's no way they could've had Cloud react to her as he did with Jessie "Are you really that desperate?", lol. At his core Cloud is a typical shounen protagonist. He's very kind and he cherishes every one of his friends. Which also shows how differently he treats and reacts to Tifa in comparison. And I think he understands and knows that Aerith is lonely (they have shared conversations about Zack and her lack of friends growing up after all).

But I agree that the baity trailers were still unnecessary, lol.

 

[roku]

Can I just say I’m glad it’s way more civil talking about the ltd on this forum then on twitter. In general some Cloti and Clerith shippers on twitter are so obsessed with their ships that they hate the other girl.

 

[Empyrea]

Lol, that was my initial reaction too. Like, "Ooookay". slowly backs away But then I thought that she's talking to herself, Cloud and the audience so okay. Still awkward and off but if that's how the devs wanted to do it, okay.

I also calmed down on the resolution when I thought of it that way. It's still...an interesting choice to present it that way, though. It struck me as the option they settled on to counteract Tifa getting a hug in her resolution, at least from the perspective of baiting shippers. But I agree that in the grand scheme of things, it's fine.

 

[Rose Alive]

I finally finished Gongaga yesterday. No Cloud, you didn't push Tifa into a pool of mako---she fell just before your sword could slice her. But I get it. He didn't want to think about it, much less talk about it. It was obvious he was in disbelief and shock.

But can I get a shout-out for our girl Tifa? How traumatizing that must have been for her! Yet she didn't hold it against Cloud. She knew he wasn't himself, and only wants to help him.

But I wish the party would address Cloud's instability. I know they're saving a lot of this for part 3, and it seems to be a silent understanding that yeah, we don't talk about those things for fear of said instability, but still.

Anyway, the scene with Zack's parents. When Cloud asked Aerith if she still had feelings for Zack, my husband was watching the scene with me. I asked him if Cloud seemed jealous (he doesn't care about the LTD, just goes with the story's pairings of AZ and CT). He thought about it for a moment and said no that he just seemed curious. This was my conclusion as well. In the Remake project, we've seen times where Cloud was clearly jealous when it came to Tifa. So there was an opportunity here, but it wasn't taken.

Also Yuffie, you're grounded. No materia for a week. Yeah they'll kiss later on, but still!

 

[Eerie]

I didn't want to post again here but my friend Sakura is making me want to. SE made a point some time back in their TikTok and they stuck with it:



In this game, Cloud has always treated Tifa and Aerith very differently. With Aerith, he's been kind, but not always. He's always treated her as a friend. With Tifa though, it's heavy flirting, intimate moments, legit romance drama right at the start, 2 confessions (!! one in Gongaga when he repeats Sephiroth's words, the other in their date) with Sephiroth preparing act 3 by driving a wedge between them two. It's no wonder that even journalists have pointed out at the blooming romance between the two.

For Aerith's date, I think that if you only see it, it can be seen as romantic; but when you see Tifa's date, you're supposed to recontext that as "friendship". In fact, it's a sad scene, where Aerith is still grieving and I think the reason why Cloud interlocks their fingers is because he feels that she wants a "romantic date with Zack". He's no Zack so he won't let her grab his arm and be all over him, but the interlocked fingers is the most "romantic gesture" he can give her so he will because she needs comfort. This is also why she interlocks fingers with him at the end, because he needs comfort and since they already did it, she feels she can do it - he doesn't reciprocate though, he's too far gone.

When you see Tifa's date, by comparison, in both the play (the twirl lmao, but also the hand holding and smiling at each other) and the gondola (where he looks absolutely determined to get the kiss he didn't in Gongaga), yeah. When Cloud really wants something, he gets it.

In Aerith's world, the dream date is so much interespeced with Zack's scenes that I saw a streamer going "yeah, I know, I'm not Zack" when he got the photographer's comment about them lacking passion (and I think he does like Aerith and CA lol, while not being a shipper he does enjoy them). This date is the culmination, to me, of showing why romantically the two don't really mesh: she's thinking "alright he is not his true self, but he must be close to Zack" (only to discover at the end that... he's more like Cloud than Zack) while Cloud is simply not interested in her romantically. I think most of all, Aerith needs a sunny character like Zack to shine, so Cloud's personality doesn't really make her the greatest tbh.

More importantly, does anyone realise the intent of Nojima insisting to write chapter 14's resolution scene for Aerith, knowing he'd write this date as well with it? The intent of that man, really, truly, is incredible.

I consider the dream date and Aerith's death to be back to back before chapter 14 Aerith appears to Cloud in Remake. So basically she learns in chapter 14 that he does only like her as a friend (errr Aerith sweetie, that was VERY visible the whole game...), dies and she's still "digesting" the news, so to speak, trying to sort out her own feelings that were also an illusion when she meets him again. This is why she muses and when Toriyama left out that the "don't fall in love with me" was also for herself, I was like "damn but that's really a very strong reaction there, not wanting to fall in love with Cloud?". And this is the reason why; the illusion she fell for quite didn't match with the idea she had of him and while she liked this guy, and thought it was love, in the end? Not so much. She loved an illusion, so is this really love? And that's something she only realised in her dream date, really little time before her old self called her back.

To me Nojima's goal is very clearly "at all times, Zack is by her side". I think Zack is her Promise Land and we will see it in part 3 (and that's why he hasn't joined the Lifestream yet by ACC).

 

[starcape91]

Yeah and also laughs as he sneaks pictures of her it's very sweet. But stuff like that is exactly what I mean by feeling baited. Him about to say something. Then nothing.

If I'm supposed to buy in that he just sees Aerith as a friend stuff like that sends mixed signals. Gives me hope for two seconds, then nothing.
I really have to wonder what the intent is with these types of scenes.

To be fair, I’ve had a similar experience with a friend of mine. And I did think it was sweet of him. But we’re just friends. We have a very meaningful relationship, but nothing romantic. It’s just not the type of relationship that is portrayed very often between a straight male and female.

 

[Ryeleigh]

To me Nojima's goal is very clearly "at all times, Zack is by her side". I think Zack is her Promise Land and we will see it in part 3 (and that's why he hasn't joined the Lifestream yet by ACC).

Another 3-4 years wait for that is going to be so cruel. TT__TT

And welcome back, Eerie (if you're back, that is)!

 

[AncientGrimoire]

I’m just hoping we get something in the interim between Rebirth and Part 3.

Between Remake and Rebirth we had Intermission, and while I believe they’ve already said there won’t be an Intermission style DLC after Rebirth because they want to focus their attention and resources on finishing Part 3, we also had Traces of Two Pasts. And First Soldier RIP.

So my primary hope is that Nojima does another book akin to Traces of Two Pasts that focuses on two other characters much like Traces focused on Tifa and Aerith.

I would absolutely love for Nanaki to get his own story about his past in the canyon. Barret too.

So if Nojima does do a book then I’d love a Barret and Nanaki Traces of Two Pasts.

Just something to make these next few years waiting for Part 3 bearable. I know we’ll get some story content in Ever Crisis but I’ve honestly only been watching new story stuff on YouTube cause I cannot get into that grindy gacha stuff. The seasonal portal stories are kind of cute but I’m mostly interested in the First Soldier storyline and for when they eventually cover the story of Before Crisis.

 

[Neomia]

No Cloud, you didn't push Tifa into a pool of mako---she fell just before your sword could slice her. But I get it. He didn't want to think about it, much less talk about it. It was obvious he was in disbelief and shock.

Did Cloud not push Tifa? I assumed he pushed her with the blunt side of the buster sword, and I just didn't have it equipped. She was way too close for him to miss though. But now that I think about it, if he pushed her, I don’t know why they wouldn’t just show it instead of doing those weird camera cuts?

But I wish the party would address Cloud's instability. I know they're saving a lot of this for part 3, and it seems to be a silent understanding that yeah, we don't talk about those things for fear of said instability, but still.

I second this, I thought it was weird from early on, when Cloud tries to pitch himself off a cliff in Corel, how quickly the party moved on from it! Then at the end when we find out Aerith covered for Cloud by saying Sephiroth had to beat Cloud up for the black materia. Like, I really think you should have told them the truth, Aerith! Cloud’s behaviour is dangerous, surely that’s something the party needs to know!

 

[Maidenofwar]

Lol please, Aerith is not the only one in the party that "hides" the truth. Wouldn't go pointing fingers at any character specifically for that no.

 

[Rose Alive]

Did Cloud not push Tifa? I assumed he pushed her with the blunt side of the buster sword, and I just didn't have it equipped. She was way too close for him to miss though. But now that I think about it, if he pushed her, I don’t know why they wouldn’t just show it instead of doing those weird camera cuts?


I second this, I thought it was weird from early on, when Cloud tries to pitch himself off a cliff in Corel, how quickly the party moved on from it! Then at the end when we find out Aerith covered for Cloud by saying Sephiroth had to beat Cloud up for the black materia. Like, I really think you should have told them the truth, Aerith! Cloud’s behaviour is dangerous, surely that’s something the party needs to know!

I recorded it and just watched it again. I had the sleek saber equipped. He definitely had the sharp part of the sword aimed at her body. You're right that she was super close though. Maybe she used the edge to kick herself off the side, propelling herself backward to escape the sword from cutting her?

 

[GamerSkull]

Even if Tifa jumped off the edge to avoid being hit by Cloud’s sword, he still “pushed” her… even if indirectly.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

It’s worth remembering that for the vast majority of time we are spent seeing things play out from Cloud’s perspective.

There’s enough room to speculate that the party amongst themselves agreed to be delicate about what they reveal to Cloud, or what information they might want to divulge. The game handles it subtly but it’s apparent by even as early as Chapter 3 that everyone in the party, not just Tifa and Aerith, knows that something is wrong with Cloud.

By the latter three chapters of the game it’s been well established and there’s no room to doubt everyone is clued in to the need to be careful around Cloud.

We only see the first part of Tifa and Aerith’s conversation about Cloud knowing Zack. By this point it’s clear Tifa and Aerith have a high level of trust in each other, so I believe they mutually agreed to not say too much to Cloud so soon. This isn’t just them choosing to do this as characters in a story.

It’s necessitated by the plot. They’ve already moved things forward by Cloud knowing things this early and having his unreliability as a narrator brought more to the fore, and made more aware to everyone else. They can’t have the party go and bring too much to light because all of that plays out later in Part 3.

So everyone is shown I think being considerate of the fact Cloud has a lot of confusion, gaps in his memory, and is increasingly at risk of manipulation from Sephiroth.

It highlights the great synergy the entire party is able to have with each other and not just through Cloud that they are shown being this way with him.

 

[Stiggie]

Well I just discovered I HAVE to do an Aerith quest to unlock a Tifa quest, that's really stupid.

 

[Eerie]

I recorded it and just watched it again. I had the sleek saber equipped. He definitely had the sharp part of the sword aimed at her body. You're right that she was super close though. Maybe she used the edge to kick herself off the side, propelling herself backward to escape the sword from cutting her?

He used the exact same attack that Sephiroth did on her 5 years ago at Nibelheim (now I know why it was changed).

Cloud didn't hit because she's faster than him and dodged it, but she fell in the mako pool. BTW, this sequence is to me the most exceptional sequence of Remake and Rebirth together, from when Sephiroth gets a full hold on Cloud until the end of the bedroom talk, everything is absolutely top notch storytelling.

Also, the White Whispers

Spoiler

wanted her to see that scene. 100%, she was relatively safe where she was, she only had to swim a little to be safe. But they took her to the Lifestream, following her own tiny memories to find her own memories of the Lifestream scene. They need her not only to be ok, but also to believe in Cloud, as Sephiroth attacks way earlier than in the OG and has a grip on Cloud he didn't have there. So Tifa needs to believe, so she can hold Cloud together until the NC, so she can look for him and piece his mind together.

Edit: @Stiggie: there's also a Tifa quest hidden behind a Barret quest in Under Junon (the condor one, Blue Skies) and one hidden behind a Yuffie quest I believe in Nibelheim, that unlocks a quest in the GS? I think this shows through mechanics how Cloud wants to close the gap between them.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Regarding the idea of SE baiting Cloud and Aerith fans, if you go back to the OG you can see that Cloud and Aerith’s interactions are meant to give off the impression that a romance is brewing between them. And indeed, perhaps that could have been the case had other factors not gotten in the way. You even have Cait Sith making a prediction that turns out to be very wrong regarding those two. So it’s not without precedent that SE would build people’s hopes up for Cloud and Aerith only for it to not come to fruition, it’s all meant to serve the tragedy.

I think a perfect scenario for them as storytellers is that the audience plays FF7 thinking Aerith is going to be the one, only to watch her get murdered before the hero’s eyes. Similarly, a perfect scenario for SE is that people play the remake thinking they’ll get to save Aerith this time when in fact…well, you do the math.

I don’t think trying to take the romantic aspect out of Cloud and Aerith’s relationship helps the story especially with how they’ve framed her feelings towards Zack. If anything I think it’s important to play it up as a contrast to Cloud and Tifa, who very clearly get to have something that Cloud and Aerith are simply not meant to have.

I was quite satisfied with how Rebirth handled this. It’s just a shame that some people miss the point so badly that they cling on to every interaction between Cloud and Aerith as some kind of “moment” that validates them as “canon”. Some people actually use Cait Sith’s prediction from the OG as evidence like, what?

 

[GamerSkull]

Regarding the idea of SE baiting Cloud and Aerith fans, if you go back to the OG you can see that Cloud and Aerith’s interactions are meant to give off the impression that a romance is brewing between them. And indeed, perhaps that could have been the case had other factors not gotten in the way. You even have Cait Sith making a prediction that turns out to be very wrong regarding those two. So it’s not without precedent that SE would build people’s hopes up for Cloud and Aerith only for it to not come to fruition, it’s all meant to serve the tragedy.

I think a perfect scenario for them as storytellers is that the audience plays FF7 thinking Aerith is going to be the one, only to watch her get murdered before the hero’s eyes. Similarly, a perfect scenario for SE is that people play the remake thinking they’ll get to save Aerith this time when in fact…well, you do the math.

I don’t think trying to take the romantic aspect out of Cloud and Aerith’s relationship helps the story especially with how they’ve framed her feelings towards Zack. If anything I think it’s important to play it up as a contrast to Cloud and Tifa, who very clearly get to have something that Cloud and Aerith are simply not meant to have.

I was quite satisfied with how Rebirth handled this. It’s just a shame that some people miss the point so badly that they cling on to every interaction between Cloud and Aerith as some kind of “moment” that validates them as “canon”. Some people actually use Cait Sith’s prediction from the OG as evidence like, what?

Yes, Cait’s fortune always came off to me as being a red herring for anyone on a first playthrough and just full of “dramatic irony” on repeat playthroughs.

I actually really like it in that regard. I hate it if Tifa’s in the party though.

 

[liuliuliu]

Well I just discovered I HAVE to do an Aerith quest to unlock a Tifa quest, that's really stupid.

why stupid? You can’t avoid Aerith forever

 

[Stiggie]

why stupid? You can’t avoid Aerith forever

Because presumably the affection system is there so WE can decide who we want to like us, I get enough Aerith in the regular game, and I simply find it awkward to go on dates with her, I don't like the LTD, and I have no interest in seeing two girls try to woo Cloud. Moreover I dislike the type of quest, I don't like it when NPCs decide for me that "this is a date and that's final". Besides, the problem isn't just that Tifas quest is locked behind Aeriths quest, it's that I as a player am not aware of that and had to go online to find Tifas quest after searching through the entire area and not finding it. (also found it 2 chapters late).

Have to say though, man that date went poorly, are regular interactions also changed based on affection rating or something? Because I can't imagine Cloud being that much of a dick is mandatory. (or him and Tifa being that flirty if the affection is low).
Also, wow, the jules workout minigame is even harder now that it uses the L2 and R2 buttons, which react differently from the L1 and R1 buttons and therefore mess up your entire rhythm. Man that went poorly.

 

[Rin]

All the CA bait is also giving my head a spin, too. The characters and the tone of the scene sometimes doesn't match and it opens up to not-so-pleasant alternative interpretations. Really, Aerith is getting the worst of it in that regard, I think. Sure, trying to recapture a lost love is tragic and can really pull on the heartstrings, but the way it's done also gives off vibes that doing that can come across as creepy to some if the person it's being done with is spoken for and/or isn't interested.

Re: the Aerith resolution... My impression of that was, "Lady, Cloud met you less than 72 hours ago. I really, really doubt he's already fallen in love with you. If I was in his shoes, that comment would've killed any interest I had in you."

The convo in here is rly interesting and I've been enjoying reading it. I wanted to chime in with some thoughts in regards to the side quests in Rebirth. I haven't gotten to the Clerith Cosmo Canyon one yet but I did the Costa Del Sol one and was really taken aback by Clouds attitude toward her.

Like a lot of you in here have said, there's a lot of bait and mixed signals. Sometimes, Cloud is super sweet to Aerith and other times he's downright horrible to the point of making me wonder why she likes him at all. The CDS date is a good example. He outright tells her it's not a date, tells her he doesn't want her to take it as such/view it as such, and tells her that he's "no romantic." He also snaps at her and tells her to stop being mean when she keeps playfully teasing him about romance.

In this regard, I'm truly unable to believe that Cloud likes her romantically at all. But then they'll get really sweet scenes where I could see how/why people ship them. But those scenes are always platonic in nature/Cloud is avoiding romantic undertones or playing stupid. The marketing has been super baity but the game will outright tell you at certain points that Cloud genuinely doesn't feel the same way.

What gets people (myself included) tripped up are the platonic scenes that don't entirely feel platonic but then Cloud's outright aversion to the idea of actually romancing her.

 

[Stiggie]

Edit: @Stiggie: there's also a Tifa quest hidden behind a Barret quest in Under Junon (the condor one, Blue Skies) and one hidden behind a Yuffie quest I believe in Nibelheim, that unlocks a quest in the GS? I think this shows through mechanics how Cloud wants to close the gap between them.

This one I did I think.

Yes, Cait’s fortune always came off to me as being a red herring for anyone on a first playthrough and just full of “dramatic irony” on repeat playthroughs.

I actually really like it in that regard. I hate it if Tifa’s in the party though.

The caith sith fortune is basically the only thing in the whole LTD that I've always found difficult to place. Obviously it can't be meant to be literal as we all know Aerith dies. But Caith Sith is also a crappy fortune teller, so does it even matter? But if it doesn't matter, why is it there? Is it really just a red-herring? I find that weird for some reason, I find it a lot more satisfying if the prediction does come true, but in some completely different ironic way. But the initial "you will lose what is most dear to you" thing is in Rebirth as well, so clearly it's not some hold-out from earlier versions of the script. I just find it altogether weird because even if I did accept that the LT is an actual thing and Aerith is a genuine love connection that rivals Tifa then I STILL don't get those predictions.