SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[insanehobbit]

Cloud and Aerith overall always gave me, personally, very strong Aragorn and Éowyn vibes (I’m first and foremost a Tolkien’s Legendarium scholar/nerd )

“I have wished you joy since first I saw you.”

I mean I always kind of got this feeling, but Rebirth, and how Cloud acts in the Gold Saucer date and the end kind of dialled this up for me.

This is exactly how I've been feeling, especially post-Rebirth.

I think Aragorn's full quote describes the CA relationship to a tee: "It is but a shadow and a thought that you love. I cannot give you what you seek. I have you wished you joy since first I saw you." (but lbr, Cloud could never be so articulate).

Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn are instrumental to her character arc, but the culmination of her arc does not require those feelings to be reciprocated (in fact, very much the opposite is true). Meanwhile, Aragorn and Arwen's arcs are intrinsically tied to one another, their relationship, and the reciprocity of their feelings, and Eowyn has nothing to do with it. The biggest obstacle in their relationship isn't another woman, but...Sauron.

Replace those names, and that's basically the "love triangle" in FF7.

In TTT, there are many moments where Aragorn is quite tender towards Eowyn, so the audience understands why she develops those feelings, and people who never read the books may legitimately be confused as to what his feelings are for her, but everything becomes clear by ROTK.

Similiarly in Rebirth there are enough scenes of Cloud being kind to Aerith that could be interpreted as romantic, so we can understand why Aerith is able to keep her hopes alive (even though I think they're really toeing the line in Rebirth, since there are also many moments where Cloud can be -- optional or not -- quite rude to her).

My biggest gripe with Rebirth is that it feels like the "shadow" Aerith is chasing is literally seeing the shadow of Zack in Cloud. I found the writing for her character in this game rather inconsistent and to the very end, her motivations opaque. It's kind of how I felt about Advent Children, where I can see what they were going for, but found the execution lacking.

The tragedy of her character is that she is someone who just wants to be a normal girl, doing normal things like trying to sort out her romantic feelings for two different guys, but she can never be normal because she's the last of her kind, destined for something greater and ultimately, destined to die. The problem is I feel like Rebirth leaned way too far into the first part of that sentence, and I have to imagine it's because they brought back Zack and made his motivation almost entirely about saving her. Aerith's mixed up feelings are then used as a way to bridge Cloud and Zack's storylines.

This is especially clear in the "dream date" in Ch. 14. Nothing about it should be taken at face value, and I think it's more a meta-commentary on the immutability of fate than anything, but it also doesn't really make much sense as a culmination of Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Mostly because there's almost no development for said relationship throughout this very long game. Not that they don't share any scenes together, but there's little to no progression. In Ch. 2, Cloud is uncomfortable when Aerith tries to make their Clock Tower outing romantic by calling it a date, and in Ch. 11 & 12 (granted these are optional), Cloud is again uncomfortable when Aerith tries to make things too intimate/romantic by asking him to sit near her and he pointedly sits farther away in both instances.

Even without looking at the menu and realizing that the game considers this part of Zack's "interlude," the entire thing is framed by Zack's story and by the dramatic question that was initially raised by Marlene earlier in the game - Does Aerith have feelings for Cloud? - but this is not about the two of them, this about how Zack feels about this and how he deals with it. The tension throughout the date is that they're going through the motions, they do seem like a couple (even though all the NPCs say otherwise), and maybe Zack's fears are true.

Of course, by the end of it, we the player, know that's not the case. Because even after they go through all the motions, even in a world where Zack and Tifa don't exist, by the end of the date, the conclusion Aerith herself comes to is that she's not sure if her feelings for Cloud are romantic after all. Not to mention, while Aerith has to lead Cloud herself to "Our Place" -- in every single fucking universe Zack somehow finds his way there on his own. This game doesn't explicitly spell it out, and Zack remains unaware to add some dramatic irony/emotional conflict to carry us through the third game, but all the clues are there.

This dream date is really not relevant to Cloud's arc at all. Cloud's arc in Rebirth is all about his fucked up mind. Aerith, like the rest of the party, can tell there's something wrong with him, but the only person he confides in is Tifa. Obviously, his reaction to Aerith's death exacerbates his mental decline, but all the stuff that happens in the other "world" before her death isn't really relevant. (If anything, this date just fucks him up more because Aerith is trying to get him to live out the life of the man he's pretending to be, but I have to imagine it's not the game's intention for her actions to be perceived this way, more of an unintended consequence of questionable writing.)

It's also technically works as a culmination of Aerith's personal arc in as much as the game bothered to give her one. The one thing that this games does progress are her feelings about Zack -- in Gongaga where she tries to pretend she's over him though it's obvious she's not; in Cosmo Canyon, where she feels his hand in the Lifestream; in the Gold Saucer, where I guess we're supposed to believe that she's finally beginning to accept that he's probably dead (though the fact that this is hidden in the optional dates is another baffling narrative choice). So then this "dream date" is, like on the Gondola, her trying to move on, except either consciously or subconsciously, she just ends up recreating her date with Zack, so she clearly hasn't. Which again, is an outcome predetermined by the fact that they brought back Zack and made his motivation all about her. They're not gonna make Zack's arc be all about trying to fight destiny in hopes of saving/reuniting with her, if she -- even if she wavers -- isn't going to be waiting.

So in the Church, Aerith resolves (or at least is working towards the inevitable resolution of) her romantic feelings, and also gets Cloud to give her her MacGuffin so she can fulfill her duty as a Cetra? I guess? Then us getting her big speech about life and death and looking towards the future in the Temple of the Ancients before the dream date feels...backwards. Idek.

It's extremely frustrating that we never get Aerith's own POV on her motivations in what is supposed to be her game (especially when we get tremendous insight into Tifa's motivations through her own POV in Ch. 9). Instead of putting us in her shoes as she leaves the party (and as she goes to what she probably realizes is her death?) and letting us sit with those conflicted feelings, we see everything through the eyes of an extremely unreliable narrator just so the ending can be the kind of mindfuck that invites debate rather than a fitting, bittersweet sendoff for her character.

If only because almost every other character in this game is so well-drawn (with such clear arcs), Aerith ends up feeling more like a plot device here (and more damningly a plot device to service the arcs of two different men this time) than she did in the OG. A gaping flaw in an otherwise very good game, especially since so much of this comes at the end.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

@Rin Oh, lol, just of interest—I just took a peak at the credits and for ENG, there's some interesting honorable mentions this time around. They literally hired Elizabeth Bushouse, who for the FF7 community at least was known for providing scripts of JPN/ENG scripts for Remake for the fandom, to work on the localization too. She of course did stuff before Remake, and did a bunch after 2020, but interesting they got somebody from the community to work on the translation. Got one of the FF12/Tactics translators from back in the day as well, and the other notable usuals. Very interesting.

I remember Elizabeth had some things to say about the LtD portrayal in the Remake, so I wonder if that affected anything.

 

[Eerie]

Nothing concerning LtD on my part, but yup. Though at times you will have translators at other offices, too, in addition to who is directly a part of the development team. Seemingly, very rarely will it just be translators somewhere else and not in-house. This is the case for most, if not all languages—FR and SP are in-house too and typically localize from the Japanese as well (unless we have retroactive instances where ENG localizers are the ones who actually are responsible for what exists across the board—they're often given this opportunity more than other languages supposedly).

Yeah but I don't like having to rely on the EN localisation; French accepts high subtleties languages and do pretty well with them because French itself is a high context language. The work on Remake was remarkable so it feels a loss for me there (even more if they continue this trend).

Also the French works with the JP mouthing since it's dubbed, so if the script they get is the EN one, it just doesn't work very well.

 

[Rin]

@Rin Oh, lol, just of interest—I just took a peak at the credits and for ENG, there's some interesting honorable mentions this time around. They literally hired Elizabeth Bushouse, who for the FF7 community at least was known for providing scripts of JPN/ENG scripts for Remake for the fandom, to work on the localization too. She of course did stuff before Remake, and did a bunch after 2020, but interesting they got somebody from the community to work on the translation. Got one of the FF12/Tactics translators from back in the day as well, and the other notable usuals. Very interesting.

I remember Elizabeth had some things to say about the LtD portrayal in the Remake, so I wonder if that affected anything.

Oh? What did she have to say about the LtD, if you remember? I'm curious

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Yeah but I don't like having to rely on the EN localisation; French accepts high subtleties languages and do pretty well with them because French itself is a high context language. The work on Remake was remarkable so it feels a loss for me there (even more if they continue this trend).

Also the French works with the JP mouthing since it's dubbed, so if the script they get is the EN one, it just doesn't work very well.

I would be willing to bet that they didn't do the entirety of the script from the ENG version, but it certainly isn't impossible or at least for certain parts.

Oh? What did she have to say about the LtD, if you remember? I'm curious

I want to say it was something for a podcast if you want to check it out, though I could be wrong.

Edit: Nah I think I was actually thinking about this article by someone else, which had things I disagreed with of course, but otherwise yeah, different person I was thinking of, though I'd listen to the podcast anyway.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

In interviews for both Remake and Rebirth the devs have said they were careful to give Aerith and Tifa equal attention. I wonder how that will work for Part 3.

To be completely honest, as much as they may have stated this, I haven’t found it to be true, especially for Remake.

Tifa is present and playable for 15 of the 18 chapters in Remake. The only chapter she is completely absent from is 2. In 1 and 8 where she isn’t present she still gets mentioned and there are flashbacks to her as a child from Cloud’s perspective. Legit Tifa has the second most screen time and presence in the game after Cloud himself.

Aerith undoubtedly has more importance to the overall story, especially in the latter half, but of the 18 chapters Aerith is only playable for 7 of them. This is mitigated a bit by 8 and 9 being very long chapters to make up for the fact she is absent for 4 entire chapters after her introduction in 2. But then she is also completely absent for another three whole chapters before her rescue in 16. So chapters 17 and 18 again are in a position where the have to pick up the slack, and are again long chapters (not just to Aerith’s benefit, but Red XIII’s as well as he has only just been introduced and there needs to be enough time to properly establish the dynamic he has with the party, but also allow the entire five to get that time together)

Rebirth was properly the time to give Aerith all the presence and time this part of the story required of her. She deserved to be centre stage as the marketing and developer comments would suggest and indicate. But aside from Chapter 2, and the latter two chapters, Aerith kind of takes a backseat to everyone else? Which I get as Barret and Red need their moments in the story here too, but honestly Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is what propels things on an emotional and wider narrative level more than Aerith does, until end where it’s finally time for her to shine and yet this is also the point where she steps out of things, and part 3 proceeds with her very much in the background.

So to me they may have said that they’ve given both heroines equal attention, but it feels like they’ve given Tifa way more attention and prominence, maybe to properly facilitate the major importance she ends up taking in part 3, at the expense of Aerith, especially in Rebirth where it’s the part of the original she takes up an important role.

As someone who loves Tifa I’m not complaining she isn’t just in the background in Rebirth like she kind of was in the original at this point in the story, but I could have done with Aerith actually be given the attention she should have had in this part as well. I know the balance to these things is always tricky, so I too would be interested to see how part 3 handles this.

 

[Eerie]

@insanehobbit woah you posted again! the last date is definitely a meta commentary on CA/ZA to me because this is not "our" Aerith, although I do think she is linked to "our" Aerith (I have a long arsed theory about this world lol). But I will say it, I think the reason why there are so many version of these worlds existing is because she wanted to save Zack, and in no reality she finds a way to keep him alive. The only way for both of them to be together is to die; Zack is her Promised Land, her own happiness, and I think these worlds is how they're going to show that (in fact they already have started) and why Zack is still around in AC/C (after 2 years even a SOLDIER should have joined the Lifestream).

The main problem for CA, I think, is that Cloud's arc both in the OG and Rebirth has very little to do with Aerith's. They become friends fast, sure, but her greatest impact on him is to die and give him a big failure feeling. Cloud's arc has always been intertwined with Tifa's arc, to such a point that a lot of people felt she had no arc. So in turn it makes Aerith's actions sometimes look insensitive because she acts despite what Cloud can feel (I will die on this hill that ZA is the pair that got the spiritual bond, BTW, especially after Rebirth and I'm not a ZA shipper; maybe the devs wanted to portray a spiritual bond for CA but they failed me big times there).

I would be willing to bet that they didn't do the entirety of the script from the ENG version, but it certainly isn't impossible or at least for certain parts.

Oh yes it's definitely only parts of the script.

 

[Maidenofwar]

While I hate having to wait for the Ultimania’s to clear things up (more due to questionable translation choices as opposed to poor writing that fails to get meaning across) I will be glad once one thing in particular is established.

That of whether all the Gold Saucer dates canonically took place, much how all the resolutions from Remake did.

My hunch is that they will be, and hopefully that’ll end any further discourse about things being “optional” or not.

If this is the case Cloud doesn't call Aerith Nakama.

I got Cait Sith, Cid and Vincent by the way lmao. I didn't even know that was an option on a first play, I thought it only unlocked after beating the game. Valenwind and Reeve/cat. Well I have back up save too but

 

[Rin]

If this is the case Cloud doesn't call Aerith Nakama.

Ah, no, He doesn't call her Nakama at the GS date, he calls her that toward the end of the game.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Yeah, but if all the dates and best options take place then he won't say Nakama later in the game either.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

This is exactly how I've been feeling, especially post-Rebirth.

I think Aragorn's full quote describes the CA relationship to a tee: "It is but a shadow and a thought that you love. I cannot give you what you seek. I have you wished you joy since first I saw you." (but lbr, Cloud could never be so articulate).

Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn are instrumental to her character arc, but the culmination of her arc does not require those feelings to be reciprocated (in fact, very much the opposite is true). Meanwhile, Aragorn and Arwen's arcs are intrinsically tied to one another, their relationship, and the reciprocity of their feelings, and Eowyn has nothing to do with it. The biggest obstacle in their relationship isn't another woman, but...Sauron.

Replace those names, and that's basically the "love triangle" in FF7.

In TTT, there are many moments where Aragorn is quite tender towards Eowyn, so the audience understands why she develops those feelings, and people who never read the books may legitimately be confused as to what his feelings are for her, but everything becomes clear by ROTK.

Similiarly in Rebirth there are enough scenes of Cloud being kind to Aerith that could be interpreted as romantic, so we can understand why Aerith is able to keep her hopes alive (even though I think they're really toeing the line in Rebirth, since there are also many moments where Cloud can be -- optional or not -- quite rude to her).

My biggest gripe with Rebirth is that it feels like the "shadow" Aerith is chasing is literally seeing the shadow of Zack in Cloud. I found the writing for her character in this game rather inconsistent and to the very end, her motivations opaque. It's kind of how I felt about Advent Children, where I can see what they were going for, but found the execution lacking.

The tragedy of her character is that she is someone who just wants to be a normal girl, doing normal things like trying to sort out her romantic feelings for two different guys, but she can never be normal because she's the last of her kind, destined for something greater and ultimately, destined to die. The problem is I feel like Rebirth leaned way too far into the first part of that sentence, and I have to imagine it's because they brought back Zack and made his motivation almost entirely about saving her. Aerith's mixed up feelings are then used as a way to bridge Cloud and Zack's storylines.

This is especially clear in the "dream date" in Ch. 14. Nothing about it should be taken at face value, and I think it's more a meta-commentary on the immutability of fate than anything, but it also doesn't really make much sense as a culmination of Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Mostly because there's almost no development for said relationship throughout this very long game. Not that they don't share any scenes together, but there's little to no progression. In Ch. 2, Cloud is uncomfortable when Aerith tries to make their Clock Tower outing romantic by calling it a date, and in Ch. 11 & 12 (granted these are optional), Cloud is again uncomfortable when Aerith tries to make things too intimate/romantic by asking him to sit near her and he pointedly sits farther away in both instances.

Even without looking at the menu and realizing that the game considers this part of Zack's "interlude," the entire thing is framed by Zack's story and by the dramatic question that was initially raised by Marlene earlier in the game - Does Aerith have feelings for Cloud? - but this is not about the two of them, this about how Zack feels about this and how he deals with it. The tension throughout the date is that they're going through the motions, they do seem like a couple (even though all the NPCs say otherwise), and maybe Zack's fears are true.

Of course, by the end of it, we the player, know that's not the case. Because even after they go through all the motions, even in a world where Zack and Tifa don't exist, by the end of the date, the conclusion Aerith herself comes to is that she's not sure if her feelings for Cloud are romantic after all. Not to mention, while Aerith has to lead Cloud herself to "Our Place" -- in every single fucking universe Zack somehow finds his way there on his own. This game doesn't explicitly spell it out, and Zack remains unaware to add some dramatic irony/emotional conflict to carry us through the third game, but all the clues are there.

This dream date is really not relevant to Cloud's arc at all. Cloud's arc in Rebirth is all about his fucked up mind. Aerith, like the rest of the party, can tell there's something wrong with him, but the only person he confides in is Tifa. Obviously, his reaction to Aerith's death exacerbates his mental decline, but all the stuff that happens in the other "world" before her death isn't really relevant. (If anything, this date just fucks him up more because Aerith is trying to get him to live out the life of the man he's pretending to be, but I have to imagine it's not the game's intention for her actions to be perceived this way, more of an unintended consequence of questionable writing.)

It's also technically works as a culmination of Aerith's personal arc in as much as the game bothered to give her one. The one thing that this games does progress are her feelings about Zack -- in Gongaga where she tries to pretend she's over him though it's obvious she's not; in Cosmo Canyon, where she feels his hand in the Lifestream; in the Gold Saucer, where I guess we're supposed to believe that she's finally beginning to accept that he's probably dead (though the fact that this is hidden in the optional dates is another baffling narrative choice). So then this "dream date" is, like on the Gondola, her trying to move on, except either consciously or subconsciously, she just ends up recreating her date with Zack, so she clearly hasn't. Which again, is an outcome predetermined by the fact that they brought back Zack and made his motivation all about her. They're not gonna make Zack's arc be all about trying to fight destiny in hopes of saving/reuniting with her, if she -- even if she wavers -- isn't going to be waiting.

So in the Church, Aerith resolves (or at least is working towards the inevitable resolution of) her romantic feelings, and also gets Cloud to give her her MacGuffin so she can fulfill her duty as a Cetra? I guess? Then us getting her big speech about life and death and looking towards the future in the Temple of the Ancients before the dream date feels...backwards. Idek.

It's extremely frustrating that we never get Aerith's own POV on her motivations in what is supposed to be her game (especially when we get tremendous insight into Tifa's motivations through her own POV in Ch. 9). Instead of putting us in her shoes as she leaves the party (and as she goes to what she probably realizes is her death?) and letting us sit with those conflicted feelings, we see everything through the eyes of an extremely unreliable narrator just so the ending can be the kind of mindfuck that invites debate rather than a fitting, bittersweet sendoff for her character.

If only because almost every other character in this game is so well-drawn (with such clear arcs), Aerith ends up feeling more like a plot device here (and more damningly a plot device to service the arcs of two different men this time) than she did in the OG. A gaping flaw in an otherwise very good game, especially since so much of this comes at the end.

This was beautifully written.

I have read your essay on the LTD on your Tumblr (I actually linked it here because it’s so brilliantly written) and have honestly been in awe of how well constructed your writing is that is incredibly well supported by the text itself.

Also reading everything you shared here in this post reaffirms my admiration for Tolkien.

Because having you compare the way Tolkien wrote the relationships and dynamics between Aragorn, Arwen, and Éowyn with the LTD in VII and Rebirth highlights a very clear contrast between writing that is executed by master storyteller within absolute full control of the world and characters he creates, and in the story he desires to tell, with a story that while I love it and cherish it deeply, is ultimately let down time and again by how messy and inconsistent it can be.

This isn’t a fault against Nojima but against the reality that there is obviously way too many cooks in the kitchen here, and this isn’t just down to questionable translations, nor the need to create enough intrigue and mystery to tide the audience over for the next four years for part 3.

It’s against the choice for cryptic mystery over emotional resonance, that also does the characters in the story a disservice.

Tifa was executed brilliantly in Rebirth. I have no complaints.

But they have handled Aerith very inconsistently here as you said and all I can hope for is that it pays off in Part 3.

 

[Rin]

Yeah, but if all the dates and best options take place then he won't say Nakama later in the game either.

Idk if that makes sense because it's the low affection version where he calls her Nakama, not high affection. So, if the argument is that the affection points don't matter bc the GS dates aren't canon, then the only version of the dream date that would be canon is the low affection, so either way he would be calling her Nakama. Unless you're saying that because the dream date has two dialogue options that depend on the affection system that it's not canon either, then I guess that would probably be true(?)

 

[Maidenofwar]

People are saying all the Resolution scenes are canon and expecting it will be the same for Rebirth in which case if it was and the best GS all happened then Nakama wouldn't happen.

 

[liuliuliu]

People are saying all the Resolution scenes are canon and expecting it will be the same for Rebirth in which case if it was and the best GS all happened then Nakama wouldn't happen.

I saw people saying it not HA or LA but the item you choose which will give different answer than Nakanma…that makes more sense to me because otherwise they should give you 2 version to chose from for that scene as well in system setting.

 

[Axiom]

The devs wont say any of the gold saucer dates arent canon, even the standard ones. That'd be shooting themselves in the foot. We can either assume the stuff in the intidimate dates always happen, we just dont get to see the good stuff in the standard dates. Or we can assume Cloud doesnt take things as far if their bonds arent high enough.

The final date is dependent on the choices made in the final date.

 

[Eerie]

People are saying all the Resolution scenes are canon and expecting it will be the same for Rebirth in which case if it was and the best GS all happened then Nakama wouldn't happen.

I think it's a misread of Cloud to think he doesn't reject Aerith in the church. He simply does reject her less harshly than in the low affection of that scene; we can tell because Aerith's answer does not change: she still makes a sad face, still wonders about what kind of like she has for Cloud, still says "sorry" for hugging him (which she wouldn't need to if he was in love with her). All of these things are canon to both answers and show that she knows he doesn't love her that way.

And I mean there's no problem in liking this scene, personally it strikes me as a very sad scene for Aerith.

Edit: no the items have no bearing on the date.

 

[Hix]

Idk if that makes sense because it's the low affection version where he calls her Nakama, not high affection. So, if the argument is that the affection points don't matter bc the GS dates aren't canon, then the only version of the dream date that would be canon is the low affection, so either way he would be calling her Nakama. Unless you're saying that because the dream date has two dialogue options that depend on the affection system that it's not canon either, then I guess that would probably be true(?)

While there is a version in which Cloud doesn't call her just "nakama", he still basically rebuffs Aerith's confession and leaves her disappointed and questioning if it was ever real regardless.

The end result is same, she responds "now I see where we stand" and admits that, while she likes Cloud, she isn't sure she like likes him.

Basically, it's the same result either way.

 

[Maidenofwar]

He doesn't reject her at all in HA version. Just leaving it at that.

She's sad and sorry because no matter where they stand she has to leave.

 

[Rin]

People are saying all the Resolution scenes are canon and expecting it will be the same for Rebirth in which case if it was and the best GS all happened then Nakama wouldn't happen.

Ah, I thought you were responding to someone else who was talking about how one of the devs said the GS dates are just bonus content and none of them are canon.

 

[shady]

He doesn't reject her at all in HA version. Just leaving it at that.

She's sad and sorry because no matter where they stand she has to leave.

I agree I don’t think he “rejects her” in the HA version at all, but I also don’t think he gives her enough. Because him rejecting her or not is kind of irrelevant when her response suggests that she feels “rejected” regardless

Again the “Know where we stand” is not something said by somebody who feels the feelings they are trying to convey are being reciprocated, and then of course her saying she likes but isn’t sure what kind of like

 

[liuliuliu]

The devs wont say any of the gold saucer dates arent canon, even the standard ones. That'd be shooting themselves in the foot. We can either assume the stuff in the intidimate dates always happen, we just dont get to see the good stuff in the standard dates. Or we can assume Cloud doesnt take things as far if their bonds arent high enough.

The final date is dependent on the choices made in the final date.

Okay so there actually is no HA and LA version of dream date. So it is just a more Cloud or more Zack version of answer?

 

[Axiom]

I am of the opinion that everything in Rebirth is canon, and that you have to see everything to get the full picture. Cloud is fundamentally the same character in all the dates. Going on a few side quests, or answering a few lines of dialogue differently shouldnt fundamentally change how he feels.

The difference between whether or not Cloud loves Aerith shouldnt be which photos or gifts he picked during the date. Whether Cloud says "Yes, of course" or "Because we're friends", how he feels about Aerith shouldnt be dramatically different.

 

[Axiom]

Okay so there actually is no HA and LA version of dream date. So it is just a more Cloud or more Zack version of answer?

I dunno about the Cloud vs Zack thing. I think it mirrors the highwind. In that there's not really that much a difference between the LA/HA scenes.

 

[Rin]

I am of the opinion that everything in Rebirth is canon, and that you have to see everything to get the full picture. Cloud is fundamentally the same character in all the dates. Going on a few side quests, or answering a few lines of dialogue differently shouldnt fundamentally change how he feels.

The difference between whether or not Cloud loves Aerith shouldnt be which photos or gifts he picked during the date. Whether Cloud says "Yes, of course" or "Because we're friends", how he feels about Aerith shouldnt be dramatically different.

Ya, I have the same opinion/view point of the scenes. I've gone through almost all versions of the LA/HA GS date scenes and none of them change enough to really alter what's happening in the scene or what the point of the scene is.

And this goes for Cleriths HA/LA dream date as well. Cloud saying they're friends/nakama wasn't necessarily him rejecting her in the first place, it's just how he genuinely feels about her and this is fine. Same with the version of him saying "Yeah, why not?". In both scenarios, he's interested in hanging out with her again bc she's someone he cares about. Whether that's platonic or romantic, it doesn't really matter in the end in my opinion.

Also, there's nothing wrong with being nakama!! It's a very nice and sweet thing to be called!!! If I was Aerith, I'd be touched.

 

[faefolk]

This is exactly how I've been feeling, especially post-Rebirth.

I think Aragorn's full quote describes the CA relationship to a tee: "It is but a shadow and a thought that you love. I cannot give you what you seek. I have you wished you joy since first I saw you." (but lbr, Cloud could never be so articulate).

Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn are instrumental to her character arc, but the culmination of her arc does not require those feelings to be reciprocated (in fact, very much the opposite is true). Meanwhile, Aragorn and Arwen's arcs are intrinsically tied to one another, their relationship, and the reciprocity of their feelings, and Eowyn has nothing to do with it. The biggest obstacle in their relationship isn't another woman, but...Sauron.

Replace those names, and that's basically the "love triangle" in FF7.

In TTT, there are many moments where Aragorn is quite tender towards Eowyn, so the audience understands why she develops those feelings, and people who never read the books may legitimately be confused as to what his feelings are for her, but everything becomes clear by ROTK.

Similiarly in Rebirth there are enough scenes of Cloud being kind to Aerith that could be interpreted as romantic, so we can understand why Aerith is able to keep her hopes alive (even though I think they're really toeing the line in Rebirth, since there are also many moments where Cloud can be -- optional or not -- quite rude to her).

My biggest gripe with Rebirth is that it feels like the "shadow" Aerith is chasing is literally seeing the shadow of Zack in Cloud. I found the writing for her character in this game rather inconsistent and to the very end, her motivations opaque. It's kind of how I felt about Advent Children, where I can see what they were going for, but found the execution lacking.

The tragedy of her character is that she is someone who just wants to be a normal girl, doing normal things like trying to sort out her romantic feelings for two different guys, but she can never be normal because she's the last of her kind, destined for something greater and ultimately, destined to die. The problem is I feel like Rebirth leaned way too far into the first part of that sentence, and I have to imagine it's because they brought back Zack and made his motivation almost entirely about saving her. Aerith's mixed up feelings are then used as a way to bridge Cloud and Zack's storylines.

This is especially clear in the "dream date" in Ch. 14. Nothing about it should be taken at face value, and I think it's more a meta-commentary on the immutability of fate than anything, but it also doesn't really make much sense as a culmination of Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Mostly because there's almost no development for said relationship throughout this very long game. Not that they don't share any scenes together, but there's little to no progression. In Ch. 2, Cloud is uncomfortable when Aerith tries to make their Clock Tower outing romantic by calling it a date, and in Ch. 11 & 12 (granted these are optional), Cloud is again uncomfortable when Aerith tries to make things too intimate/romantic by asking him to sit near her and he pointedly sits farther away in both instances.

Even without looking at the menu and realizing that the game considers this part of Zack's "interlude," the entire thing is framed by Zack's story and by the dramatic question that was initially raised by Marlene earlier in the game - Does Aerith have feelings for Cloud? - but this is not about the two of them, this about how Zack feels about this and how he deals with it. The tension throughout the date is that they're going through the motions, they do seem like a couple (even though all the NPCs say otherwise), and maybe Zack's fears are true.

Of course, by the end of it, we the player, know that's not the case. Because even after they go through all the motions, even in a world where Zack and Tifa don't exist, by the end of the date, the conclusion Aerith herself comes to is that she's not sure if her feelings for Cloud are romantic after all. Not to mention, while Aerith has to lead Cloud herself to "Our Place" -- in every single fucking universe Zack somehow finds his way there on his own. This game doesn't explicitly spell it out, and Zack remains unaware to add some dramatic irony/emotional conflict to carry us through the third game, but all the clues are there.

This dream date is really not relevant to Cloud's arc at all. Cloud's arc in Rebirth is all about his fucked up mind. Aerith, like the rest of the party, can tell there's something wrong with him, but the only person he confides in is Tifa. Obviously, his reaction to Aerith's death exacerbates his mental decline, but all the stuff that happens in the other "world" before her death isn't really relevant. (If anything, this date just fucks him up more because Aerith is trying to get him to live out the life of the man he's pretending to be, but I have to imagine it's not the game's intention for her actions to be perceived this way, more of an unintended consequence of questionable writing.)

It's also technically works as a culmination of Aerith's personal arc in as much as the game bothered to give her one. The one thing that this games does progress are her feelings about Zack -- in Gongaga where she tries to pretend she's over him though it's obvious she's not; in Cosmo Canyon, where she feels his hand in the Lifestream; in the Gold Saucer, where I guess we're supposed to believe that she's finally beginning to accept that he's probably dead (though the fact that this is hidden in the optional dates is another baffling narrative choice). So then this "dream date" is, like on the Gondola, her trying to move on, except either consciously or subconsciously, she just ends up recreating her date with Zack, so she clearly hasn't. Which again, is an outcome predetermined by the fact that they brought back Zack and made his motivation all about her. They're not gonna make Zack's arc be all about trying to fight destiny in hopes of saving/reuniting with her, if she -- even if she wavers -- isn't going to be waiting.

So in the Church, Aerith resolves (or at least is working towards the inevitable resolution of) her romantic feelings, and also gets Cloud to give her her MacGuffin so she can fulfill her duty as a Cetra? I guess? Then us getting her big speech about life and death and looking towards the future in the Temple of the Ancients before the dream date feels...backwards. Idek.

It's extremely frustrating that we never get Aerith's own POV on her motivations in what is supposed to be her game (especially when we get tremendous insight into Tifa's motivations through her own POV in Ch. 9). Instead of putting us in her shoes as she leaves the party (and as she goes to what she probably realizes is her death?) and letting us sit with those conflicted feelings, we see everything through the eyes of an extremely unreliable narrator just so the ending can be the kind of mindfuck that invites debate rather than a fitting, bittersweet sendoff for her character.

If only because almost every other character in this game is so well-drawn (with such clear arcs), Aerith ends up feeling more like a plot device here (and more damningly a plot device to service the arcs of two different men this time) than she did in the OG. A gaping flaw in an otherwise very good game, especially since so much of this comes at the end.

Omg y'all have just blown my mind. It completely is like that and genuinely just commenting to say this was so enjoyable to read.