SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Axiom]

Ya, I have the same opinion/view point of the scenes. I've gone through almost all versions of the LA/HA GS date scenes and none of them change enough to really alter what's happening in the scene or what the point of the scene is.

And this goes for Cleriths HA/LA dream date as well. Cloud saying they're friends/nakama wasn't necessarily him rejecting her in the first place, it's just how he genuinely feels about her and this is fine. Same with the version of him saying "Yeah, why not?". In both scenarios, he's interested in hanging out with her again bc she's someone he cares about. Whether that's platonic or romantic, it doesn't really matter in the end in my opinion.

Also, there's nothing wrong with being nakama!! It's a very nice and sweet thing to be called!!! If I was Aerith, I'd be touched.

Moreover, aside from LTD stuff, I find it incredibly disengenuous to tell other players that their playthroughs are somehow non canon. If a playthrough doesnt make sense, that's a failure of game design. I think Square Enix knows better than to dig themselves in that hole. Even the workout minigames from Remake are mentioned in Rebirth...and that was missable content.

Yeah, I dont think it's necessarily a rejection. I think Cloud and Aerith's relationship is open to interpretation. It's almost as if the full statement is "Yes of course, because we are friends"... and whichever half gets spoken out loud paints the way we view their relationship on that particular playthrough.

 

[Rin]

Moreover, aside from LTD stuff, I find it incredibly disengenuous to tell other players that their playthroughs are somehow non canon. If a playthrough doesnt make sense, that's a failure of game design. I think Square Enix knows better than to dig themselves in that hole. Even the workout minigames from Remake are mentioned in Rebirth...and that was missable content.

Yeah, I dont think it's necessarily a rejection. I think Cloud and Aerith's relationship is open to interpretation. It's almost as if the full statement is "Yes of course, because we are friends"... and whichever half gets spoken out loud paints the way we view their relationship on that particular playthrough.

Exactly. The only thing people need to take into consideration is that certain things will happen regardless of your choice. Whether you get Tifa's date or not, she and Cloud are still going to almost kiss in Gongaga--that simply can't be avoided. Same with some of the party dialogue like Yuffie saying all Tifa has to do is crack the whip and Cloud will shape up in the Temple of Ancients.

Regardless of player choice and optional scenes, the game leans toward one girl romantically more than the other and this is okay because it's done for cohesive storytelling purposes.

So long as people are realistic about what game they're playing and don't try to downplay or twist Clouds genuine feelings for Tifa, I don't care what they ship or how they choose to interpret Clerith.

EDIT: this actually goes for Zerith as well. As long as people aren't flat out ignoring or trying to twist the fact that Aerith herself says she's not over Zack idc lol

 

[Eerie]

Honestly Tifa went in a more roundabout way than Aerith and he just jumped on the occasion. Cloud's not as an idiot as you guys make him sound to be. He knows - and had he wanted, he could've kissed her at least twice but chose not to, each time. And I mean, that's fine because the whole time she's been painfully looking for Zack in him too. When a streamer and casually CA enjoyer goes "I know I'm not Zack" during the date, then it means that SE's message perfectly went across, IMHO.

They do have a beautiful friendship, he cherishes that bond. It's just not romantic because, as Cody said, not everything is romantic. Look at the bigger picture there.

 

[Rin]

Cloud's not as an idiot as you guys make him sound to be. He knows - and had he wanted, he could've kissed her at least twice but chose not to, each time.

I don't think anyone here makes him sound like that, in fact I think most of us have simply said that he's playing stupid as a way of avoiding conflict/hurting someone's feelings not that he actually is stupid.

Granted, I do call him stupid but I'm being facetious and I say it lovingly.

 

[shady]

This is exactly how I've been feeling, especially post-Rebirth.

I think Aragorn's full quote describes the CA relationship to a tee: "It is but a shadow and a thought that you love. I cannot give you what you seek. I have you wished you joy since first I saw you." (but lbr, Cloud could never be so articulate).

Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn are instrumental to her character arc, but the culmination of her arc does not require those feelings to be reciprocated (in fact, very much the opposite is true). Meanwhile, Aragorn and Arwen's arcs are intrinsically tied to one another, their relationship, and the reciprocity of their feelings, and Eowyn has nothing to do with it. The biggest obstacle in their relationship isn't another woman, but...Sauron.

Replace those names, and that's basically the "love triangle" in FF7.

In TTT, there are many moments where Aragorn is quite tender towards Eowyn, so the audience understands why she develops those feelings, and people who never read the books may legitimately be confused as to what his feelings are for her, but everything becomes clear by ROTK.

Similiarly in Rebirth there are enough scenes of Cloud being kind to Aerith that could be interpreted as romantic, so we can understand why Aerith is able to keep her hopes alive (even though I think they're really toeing the line in Rebirth, since there are also many moments where Cloud can be -- optional or not -- quite rude to her).

My biggest gripe with Rebirth is that it feels like the "shadow" Aerith is chasing is literally seeing the shadow of Zack in Cloud. I found the writing for her character in this game rather inconsistent and to the very end, her motivations opaque. It's kind of how I felt about Advent Children, where I can see what they were going for, but found the execution lacking.

The tragedy of her character is that she is someone who just wants to be a normal girl, doing normal things like trying to sort out her romantic feelings for two different guys, but she can never be normal because she's the last of her kind, destined for something greater and ultimately, destined to die. The problem is I feel like Rebirth leaned way too far into the first part of that sentence, and I have to imagine it's because they brought back Zack and made his motivation almost entirely about saving her. Aerith's mixed up feelings are then used as a way to bridge Cloud and Zack's storylines.

This is especially clear in the "dream date" in Ch. 14. Nothing about it should be taken at face value, and I think it's more a meta-commentary on the immutability of fate than anything, but it also doesn't really make much sense as a culmination of Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Mostly because there's almost no development for said relationship throughout this very long game. Not that they don't share any scenes together, but there's little to no progression. In Ch. 2, Cloud is uncomfortable when Aerith tries to make their Clock Tower outing romantic by calling it a date, and in Ch. 11 & 12 (granted these are optional), Cloud is again uncomfortable when Aerith tries to make things too intimate/romantic by asking him to sit near her and he pointedly sits farther away in both instances.

Even without looking at the menu and realizing that the game considers this part of Zack's "interlude," the entire thing is framed by Zack's story and by the dramatic question that was initially raised by Marlene earlier in the game - Does Aerith have feelings for Cloud? - but this is not about the two of them, this about how Zack feels about this and how he deals with it. The tension throughout the date is that they're going through the motions, they do seem like a couple (even though all the NPCs say otherwise), and maybe Zack's fears are true.

Of course, by the end of it, we the player, know that's not the case. Because even after they go through all the motions, even in a world where Zack and Tifa don't exist, by the end of the date, the conclusion Aerith herself comes to is that she's not sure if her feelings for Cloud are romantic after all. Not to mention, while Aerith has to lead Cloud herself to "Our Place" -- in every single fucking universe Zack somehow finds his way there on his own. This game doesn't explicitly spell it out, and Zack remains unaware to add some dramatic irony/emotional conflict to carry us through the third game, but all the clues are there.

This dream date is really not relevant to Cloud's arc at all. Cloud's arc in Rebirth is all about his fucked up mind. Aerith, like the rest of the party, can tell there's something wrong with him, but the only person he confides in is Tifa. Obviously, his reaction to Aerith's death exacerbates his mental decline, but all the stuff that happens in the other "world" before her death isn't really relevant. (If anything, this date just fucks him up more because Aerith is trying to get him to live out the life of the man he's pretending to be, but I have to imagine it's not the game's intention for her actions to be perceived this way, more of an unintended consequence of questionable writing.)

It's also technically works as a culmination of Aerith's personal arc in as much as the game bothered to give her one. The one thing that this games does progress are her feelings about Zack -- in Gongaga where she tries to pretend she's over him though it's obvious she's not; in Cosmo Canyon, where she feels his hand in the Lifestream; in the Gold Saucer, where I guess we're supposed to believe that she's finally beginning to accept that he's probably dead (though the fact that this is hidden in the optional dates is another baffling narrative choice). So then this "dream date" is, like on the Gondola, her trying to move on, except either consciously or subconsciously, she just ends up recreating her date with Zack, so she clearly hasn't. Which again, is an outcome predetermined by the fact that they brought back Zack and made his motivation all about her. They're not gonna make Zack's arc be all about trying to fight destiny in hopes of saving/reuniting with her, if she -- even if she wavers -- isn't going to be waiting.

So in the Church, Aerith resolves (or at least is working towards the inevitable resolution of) her romantic feelings, and also gets Cloud to give her her MacGuffin so she can fulfill her duty as a Cetra? I guess? Then us getting her big speech about life and death and looking towards the future in the Temple of the Ancients before the dream date feels...backwards. Idek.

It's extremely frustrating that we never get Aerith's own POV on her motivations in what is supposed to be her game (especially when we get tremendous insight into Tifa's motivations through her own POV in Ch. 9). Instead of putting us in her shoes as she leaves the party (and as she goes to what she probably realizes is her death?) and letting us sit with those conflicted feelings, we see everything through the eyes of an extremely unreliable narrator just so the ending can be the kind of mindfuck that invites debate rather than a fitting, bittersweet sendoff for her character.

If only because almost every other character in this game is so well-drawn (with such clear arcs), Aerith ends up feeling more like a plot device here (and more damningly a plot device to service the arcs of two different men this time) than she did in the OG. A gaping flaw in an otherwise very good game, especially since so much of this comes at the end.

Absolute cinema. I only knew of the legendary tumblr post I didn’t realise you posted here too, would love to see more posts from you!

 

[Empyrea]

Cloud's not as an idiot as you guys make him sound to be. He knows - and had he wanted, he could've kissed her at least twice but chose not to, each time.

I'll chime in that to me Cloud's responses are normal, for the most part, in that he'd barely ever say no to people he likes when it comes to hanging out, but he'd get grumpy if the other party steps over a certain line too often. But he can be as forward as anyone can if he wants to.

This is exactly how I've been feeling, especially post-Rebirth.

I think Aragorn's full quote describes the CA relationship to a tee: "It is but a shadow and a thought that you love. I cannot give you what you seek. I have you wished you joy since first I saw you." (but lbr, Cloud could never be so articulate).

Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn are instrumental to her character arc, but the culmination of her arc does not require those feelings to be reciprocated (in fact, very much the opposite is true). Meanwhile, Aragorn and Arwen's arcs are intrinsically tied to one another, their relationship, and the reciprocity of their feelings, and Eowyn has nothing to do with it. The biggest obstacle in their relationship isn't another woman, but...Sauron.

Replace those names, and that's basically the "love triangle" in FF7.

In TTT, there are many moments where Aragorn is quite tender towards Eowyn, so the audience understands why she develops those feelings, and people who never read the books may legitimately be confused as to what his feelings are for her, but everything becomes clear by ROTK.

Similiarly in Rebirth there are enough scenes of Cloud being kind to Aerith that could be interpreted as romantic, so we can understand why Aerith is able to keep her hopes alive (even though I think they're really toeing the line in Rebirth, since there are also many moments where Cloud can be -- optional or not -- quite rude to her).

My biggest gripe with Rebirth is that it feels like the "shadow" Aerith is chasing is literally seeing the shadow of Zack in Cloud. I found the writing for her character in this game rather inconsistent and to the very end, her motivations opaque. It's kind of how I felt about Advent Children, where I can see what they were going for, but found the execution lacking.

The tragedy of her character is that she is someone who just wants to be a normal girl, doing normal things like trying to sort out her romantic feelings for two different guys, but she can never be normal because she's the last of her kind, destined for something greater and ultimately, destined to die. The problem is I feel like Rebirth leaned way too far into the first part of that sentence, and I have to imagine it's because they brought back Zack and made his motivation almost entirely about saving her. Aerith's mixed up feelings are then used as a way to bridge Cloud and Zack's storylines.

This is especially clear in the "dream date" in Ch. 14. Nothing about it should be taken at face value, and I think it's more a meta-commentary on the immutability of fate than anything, but it also doesn't really make much sense as a culmination of Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Mostly because there's almost no development for said relationship throughout this very long game. Not that they don't share any scenes together, but there's little to no progression. In Ch. 2, Cloud is uncomfortable when Aerith tries to make their Clock Tower outing romantic by calling it a date, and in Ch. 11 & 12 (granted these are optional), Cloud is again uncomfortable when Aerith tries to make things too intimate/romantic by asking him to sit near her and he pointedly sits farther away in both instances.

Even without looking at the menu and realizing that the game considers this part of Zack's "interlude," the entire thing is framed by Zack's story and by the dramatic question that was initially raised by Marlene earlier in the game - Does Aerith have feelings for Cloud? - but this is not about the two of them, this about how Zack feels about this and how he deals with it. The tension throughout the date is that they're going through the motions, they do seem like a couple (even though all the NPCs say otherwise), and maybe Zack's fears are true.

Of course, by the end of it, we the player, know that's not the case. Because even after they go through all the motions, even in a world where Zack and Tifa don't exist, by the end of the date, the conclusion Aerith herself comes to is that she's not sure if her feelings for Cloud are romantic after all. Not to mention, while Aerith has to lead Cloud herself to "Our Place" -- in every single fucking universe Zack somehow finds his way there on his own. This game doesn't explicitly spell it out, and Zack remains unaware to add some dramatic irony/emotional conflict to carry us through the third game, but all the clues are there.

This dream date is really not relevant to Cloud's arc at all. Cloud's arc in Rebirth is all about his fucked up mind. Aerith, like the rest of the party, can tell there's something wrong with him, but the only person he confides in is Tifa. Obviously, his reaction to Aerith's death exacerbates his mental decline, but all the stuff that happens in the other "world" before her death isn't really relevant. (If anything, this date just fucks him up more because Aerith is trying to get him to live out the life of the man he's pretending to be, but I have to imagine it's not the game's intention for her actions to be perceived this way, more of an unintended consequence of questionable writing.)

It's also technically works as a culmination of Aerith's personal arc in as much as the game bothered to give her one. The one thing that this games does progress are her feelings about Zack -- in Gongaga where she tries to pretend she's over him though it's obvious she's not; in Cosmo Canyon, where she feels his hand in the Lifestream; in the Gold Saucer, where I guess we're supposed to believe that she's finally beginning to accept that he's probably dead (though the fact that this is hidden in the optional dates is another baffling narrative choice). So then this "dream date" is, like on the Gondola, her trying to move on, except either consciously or subconsciously, she just ends up recreating her date with Zack, so she clearly hasn't. Which again, is an outcome predetermined by the fact that they brought back Zack and made his motivation all about her. They're not gonna make Zack's arc be all about trying to fight destiny in hopes of saving/reuniting with her, if she -- even if she wavers -- isn't going to be waiting.

So in the Church, Aerith resolves (or at least is working towards the inevitable resolution of) her romantic feelings, and also gets Cloud to give her her MacGuffin so she can fulfill her duty as a Cetra? I guess? Then us getting her big speech about life and death and looking towards the future in the Temple of the Ancients before the dream date feels...backwards. Idek.

It's extremely frustrating that we never get Aerith's own POV on her motivations in what is supposed to be her game (especially when we get tremendous insight into Tifa's motivations through her own POV in Ch. 9). Instead of putting us in her shoes as she leaves the party (and as she goes to what she probably realizes is her death?) and letting us sit with those conflicted feelings, we see everything through the eyes of an extremely unreliable narrator just so the ending can be the kind of mindfuck that invites debate rather than a fitting, bittersweet sendoff for her character.

If only because almost every other character in this game is so well-drawn (with such clear arcs), Aerith ends up feeling more like a plot device here (and more damningly a plot device to service the arcs of two different men this time) than she did in the OG. A gaping flaw in an otherwise very good game, especially since so much of this comes at the end.

That was an excellent read, and I thank thee for the post! I was hoping to see your take at some point and it's amazing!

 

[Eerie]

When I see stuff like "open interpretation", I nope out pretty fast. As I said in my first post, SE made a TikTok post with one of their pics being Cloud and Tifa on the well during their promise and written "loyal" over it. That, plus the novellas (both ToTP for Tifa's side and 2,000 gils etc. for Cloud) are a heavy narrative showing where both stood when they were younger, and we kind of see them going over their memories as kids during a good part of the game, catching up on that.

We're not in a "both girls" era. Shippers gonna ship and that's fine but this thread is to find the canon interpretation and Aerith's words are pretty telling - and he doesn't deny either at that moment. There's little "open to interpretation" there, as little as the kiss he gave to Tifa. The GS dates do show what kind of relationships he has with all the characters, canon not canon you're supposed to watch them all to understand him better anyway. And Aerith is a dear friend he's comforting; and truly I think it's beautiful because damn, I couldn't imagine Cloud Strife comforting anyone but Tifa in Remake, and personally I love that he can comfort Aerith like this. As I said in my first post the interlocked fingers to me ring that "I know you want something romantic to replace Zack but this is the best I can give to you".

Aerith herself, I feel, is a meta commentary about the theme of loss; not only her own death, which affects others and Cloud especially, but also how she deals with Zack's loss (and the answer is: pretty badly, she denies it).

@Empyrea : this is what I'm saying; Aerith understands that she is treated like any friend here. Because he would do the same with anyone, really. That's why she understands that she's not "special". In fact, it's something I personally have to wonder about and look at a good deal because, how could she not see and understand that the way Cloud treats Tifa is the way Zack treated her and the very reason why she is envious of their bond?

 

[Maidenofwar]

Well I'm still rolling at Cid/Vincent/Cait Sith. Well played game, well played.

 

[Eerie]

I think I heard when you max out everyone you get Cid/Vincent/Cait Sith. But if you followed what the game said, it's pretty weird, I'd think you have someone higher than the others? How are everyone's smileys?

 

[GamerSkull]

I think I heard when you max out everyone you get Cid/Vincent/Cait Sith. But if you followed what the game said, it's pretty weird, I'd think you have someone higher than the others? How are everyone's smileys?

I think it’s just if your highest ones are tied.

 

[Rin]

When I see stuff like "open interpretation", I nope out pretty fast. As I said in my first post, SE made a TikTok post with one of their pics being Cloud and Tifa on the well during their promise and written "loyal" over it. That, plus the novellas (both ToTP for Tifa's side and 2,000 gils etc. for Cloud) are a heavy narrative showing where both stood when they were younger, and we kind of see them going over their memories as kids during a good part of the game, catching up on that.

We're not in a "both girls" era. Shippers gonna ship and that's fine but this thread is to find the canon interpretation and Aerith's words are pretty telling - and he doesn't deny either at that moment. There's little "open to interpretation" there, as little as the kiss he gave to Tifa. The GS dates do show what kind of relationships he has with all the characters, canon not canon you're supposed to watch them all to understand him better anyway. And Aerith is a dear friend he's comforting; and truly I think it's beautiful because damn, I couldn't imagine Cloud Strife comforting anyone but Tifa in Remake, and personally I love that he can comfort Aerith like this. As I said in my first post the interlocked fingers to me ring that "I know you want something romantic to replace Zack but this is the best I can give to you".

Aerith herself, I feel, is a meta commentary about the theme of loss; not only her own death, which affects others and Cloud especially, but also how she deals with Zack's loss (and the answer is: pretty badly, she denies it).

@Empyrea : this is what I'm saying; Aerith understands that she is treated like any friend here. Because he would do the same with anyone, really. That's why she understands that she's not "special". In fact, it's something I personally have to wonder about and look at a good deal because, how could she not see and understand that the way Cloud treats Tifa is the way Zack treated her and the very reason why she is envious of their bond?

I honestly think most people here agree with you, so you're preaching to the choir a bit. I think we all just know that fans of CA are going to interpret things differently and we're just acknowledging that reality.

 

[Nal]

This is exactly how I've been feeling, especially post-Rebirth.

I think Aragorn's full quote describes the CA relationship to a tee: "It is but a shadow and a thought that you love. I cannot give you what you seek. I have you wished you joy since first I saw you." (but lbr, Cloud could never be so articulate).

Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn are instrumental to her character arc, but the culmination of her arc does not require those feelings to be reciprocated (in fact, very much the opposite is true). Meanwhile, Aragorn and Arwen's arcs are intrinsically tied to one another, their relationship, and the reciprocity of their feelings, and Eowyn has nothing to do with it. The biggest obstacle in their relationship isn't another woman, but...Sauron.

Replace those names, and that's basically the "love triangle" in FF7.

In TTT, there are many moments where Aragorn is quite tender towards Eowyn, so the audience understands why she develops those feelings, and people who never read the books may legitimately be confused as to what his feelings are for her, but everything becomes clear by ROTK.

Similiarly in Rebirth there are enough scenes of Cloud being kind to Aerith that could be interpreted as romantic, so we can understand why Aerith is able to keep her hopes alive (even though I think they're really toeing the line in Rebirth, since there are also many moments where Cloud can be -- optional or not -- quite rude to her).

My biggest gripe with Rebirth is that it feels like the "shadow" Aerith is chasing is literally seeing the shadow of Zack in Cloud. I found the writing for her character in this game rather inconsistent and to the very end, her motivations opaque. It's kind of how I felt about Advent Children, where I can see what they were going for, but found the execution lacking.

The tragedy of her character is that she is someone who just wants to be a normal girl, doing normal things like trying to sort out her romantic feelings for two different guys, but she can never be normal because she's the last of her kind, destined for something greater and ultimately, destined to die. The problem is I feel like Rebirth leaned way too far into the first part of that sentence, and I have to imagine it's because they brought back Zack and made his motivation almost entirely about saving her. Aerith's mixed up feelings are then used as a way to bridge Cloud and Zack's storylines.

This is especially clear in the "dream date" in Ch. 14. Nothing about it should be taken at face value, and I think it's more a meta-commentary on the immutability of fate than anything, but it also doesn't really make much sense as a culmination of Cloud and Aerith's relationship. Mostly because there's almost no development for said relationship throughout this very long game. Not that they don't share any scenes together, but there's little to no progression. In Ch. 2, Cloud is uncomfortable when Aerith tries to make their Clock Tower outing romantic by calling it a date, and in Ch. 11 & 12 (granted these are optional), Cloud is again uncomfortable when Aerith tries to make things too intimate/romantic by asking him to sit near her and he pointedly sits farther away in both instances.

Even without looking at the menu and realizing that the game considers this part of Zack's "interlude," the entire thing is framed by Zack's story and by the dramatic question that was initially raised by Marlene earlier in the game - Does Aerith have feelings for Cloud? - but this is not about the two of them, this about how Zack feels about this and how he deals with it. The tension throughout the date is that they're going through the motions, they do seem like a couple (even though all the NPCs say otherwise), and maybe Zack's fears are true.

Of course, by the end of it, we the player, know that's not the case. Because even after they go through all the motions, even in a world where Zack and Tifa don't exist, by the end of the date, the conclusion Aerith herself comes to is that she's not sure if her feelings for Cloud are romantic after all. Not to mention, while Aerith has to lead Cloud herself to "Our Place" -- in every single fucking universe Zack somehow finds his way there on his own. This game doesn't explicitly spell it out, and Zack remains unaware to add some dramatic irony/emotional conflict to carry us through the third game, but all the clues are there.

This dream date is really not relevant to Cloud's arc at all. Cloud's arc in Rebirth is all about his fucked up mind. Aerith, like the rest of the party, can tell there's something wrong with him, but the only person he confides in is Tifa. Obviously, his reaction to Aerith's death exacerbates his mental decline, but all the stuff that happens in the other "world" before her death isn't really relevant. (If anything, this date just fucks him up more because Aerith is trying to get him to live out the life of the man he's pretending to be, but I have to imagine it's not the game's intention for her actions to be perceived this way, more of an unintended consequence of questionable writing.)

It's also technically works as a culmination of Aerith's personal arc in as much as the game bothered to give her one. The one thing that this games does progress are her feelings about Zack -- in Gongaga where she tries to pretend she's over him though it's obvious she's not; in Cosmo Canyon, where she feels his hand in the Lifestream; in the Gold Saucer, where I guess we're supposed to believe that she's finally beginning to accept that he's probably dead (though the fact that this is hidden in the optional dates is another baffling narrative choice). So then this "dream date" is, like on the Gondola, her trying to move on, except either consciously or subconsciously, she just ends up recreating her date with Zack, so she clearly hasn't. Which again, is an outcome predetermined by the fact that they brought back Zack and made his motivation all about her. They're not gonna make Zack's arc be all about trying to fight destiny in hopes of saving/reuniting with her, if she -- even if she wavers -- isn't going to be waiting.

So in the Church, Aerith resolves (or at least is working towards the inevitable resolution of) her romantic feelings, and also gets Cloud to give her her MacGuffin so she can fulfill her duty as a Cetra? I guess? Then us getting her big speech about life and death and looking towards the future in the Temple of the Ancients before the dream date feels...backwards. Idek.

It's extremely frustrating that we never get Aerith's own POV on her motivations in what is supposed to be her game (especially when we get tremendous insight into Tifa's motivations through her own POV in Ch. 9). Instead of putting us in her shoes as she leaves the party (and as she goes to what she probably realizes is her death?) and letting us sit with those conflicted feelings, we see everything through the eyes of an extremely unreliable narrator just so the ending can be the kind of mindfuck that invites debate rather than a fitting, bittersweet sendoff for her character.

If only because almost every other character in this game is so well-drawn (with such clear arcs), Aerith ends up feeling more like a plot device here (and more damningly a plot device to service the arcs of two different men this time) than she did in the OG. A gaping flaw in an otherwise very good game, especially since so much of this comes at the end.

We need more of your analysis on scenes. This read like poetry and matches my own feelings

 

[Maidenofwar]

Aerith is green, Tifa is yellow, Yuffie and Barret made yellow too, Red XIII is purple because he hates me for not beating him at cards or something

I can't wait to see the % rates from clear data!

 

[Eerie]

OK now that's weird, you should've gotten Aerith's LA I think, at the very least? I mean you obviously have her higher than the others. Also despite ignoring a lot of sidequests for my first run (my second run will be my complete run) I have a lot of green, Red is even blue.

 

[r_monk]

Don't give me and the Aerti shipper in me ideas, my guy. It's not good for my health

Hello, fellow Aerti shipper!!!!

 

[r_monk]

If we’re talking about songs that demonstrates how Cloud feels, why does nobody talk about Midgar Blues? I know that song isn’t as popular (read:marketed) as Hollow or NPTK, but it’s definitely about Cloud’s feeling and love for Tifa when he left Midgar. If Cleriths want to talk about how songs are written to be love confessions from each character’s POV, they have to acknowledge the legitimacy of this song too, I mean, it’s clear as day.

Lol Midgar Blues is truly the dark horse. Maybe no one talks about it because it's just so, so obvious that Cloud and Tifa. Well, maybe the CAs don't talk about it.

 

[r_monk]

I actually disagree. You can reference supplementary material in a story, as long as people that haven’t partaken don’t feel lost as a result.

I wasn't actually disagreeing with this. "As long as people that haven't partaken don't feel lost as a result" was kind of the point I was trying to get across. Nods to and mentions of supplementary should be enriching for those who know and don't know and certainly shouldn't alienate the latter. Tifa's cat, for instance. If I didn't know Cloud had direct history with Maru from ToTP, that information being revealed to me in the Nibelheim flashback would still deepen my understanding of his relationship with Tifa. The effect would basically be the same as if I'd learned about it from the book.

 

[GamerSkull]

Lol Midgar Blues is truly the dark horse. Maybe no one talks about it because it's just so, so obvious that Cloud and Tifa. Well, maybe the CAs don't talk about it.

Where does Midgar Blues play again? That might factor into it. Hollow and No Promises to Keep are the “main” songs.

 

[r_monk]

Where does Midgar Blues play again? That might factor into it. Hollow and No Promises to Keep are the “main” songs.

The singer in Wall Market where you find the drunk dad. He talks to you a bit about the song either while you're with Aerith or later when you're back in WM during the day with Barret and Tifa. He tells you about the song and gives you a copy of the track for the jukebox, if I recall!

 

[GamerSkull]

The singer in Wall Market where you find the drunk dad. He talks to you a bit about the song either while you're with Aerith or later when you're back in WM during the day with Barret and Tifa. He tells you about the song and gives you a copy of the track for the jukebox, if I recall!

That’s probably the reason why. They see it as some side quest song that has no bearing on much of anything.

 

[r_monk]

That’s probably the reason why. They see it as some side quest song that has no bearing on much of anything.

Non-optional metaphorical couple's song. Guh.

 

[insanehobbit]

the last date is definitely a meta commentary on CA/ZA to me because this is not "our" Aerith, although I do think she is linked to "our" Aerith (I have a long arsed theory about this world lol).

I share this suspicion, if only because it struck me as a huge red flag that in Ch. 13, "our" Aerith makes an impassioned speech about how Sephiroth is wrong, about the value of life, and how death is not a "homecoming." Then once Cloud wakes up, one of the first things she glibly says is "We could call it a homecoming." I found it jarring for her to do such a 180 on this subject (which is like one of the main themes of the game, lol) in the span of a few hours. Though I guess this could just be SENA's wonky translations again.

So yeah, I wonder if Cloud saying "This isn't you" is just the truth hiding in plain sight. Which may also explain why we don't see her POV in the last chapter -- because they're still trying to hide the ball -- and the "Aerith" we/Cloud sees isn't actually her.

Though maybe this is just me trying to cope with bad writing, lol.

This isn’t a fault against Nojima but against the reality that there is obviously way too many cooks in the kitchen here, and this isn’t just down to questionable translations, nor the need to create enough intrigue and mystery to tide the audience over for the next four years for part 3.

It’s against the choice for cryptic mystery over emotional resonance, that also does the characters in the story a disservice.

Tifa was executed brilliantly in Rebirth. I have no complaints.

But they have handled Aerith very inconsistently here as you said and all I can hope for is that it pays off in Part 3.

Yeah, for sure. And SE has been in its "for a dollar, name a woman" era for at least the past decade, so it doesn't surprise me that they dropped the ball on her like this. Which really makes it a miracle how well-developed Tifa has been throughout the ReTrilogy (esp compared to the OG), though they've done a pretty good job with Yuffie as well.

I think the fundamental storytelling problem with Rebirth is that the devs prioritized the whole meta aspect of it being a "Remake" vs. focusing on retelling the actual story from the OG (you know....the one that's resonated with people for nearly three decades?). Thus the endings of Remake and Rebirth are all about fate and destiny, focusing on whether the two famously dead characters from the OG/Compilation are actually going to live this time vs. the natural end points/act breaks of the OG's story.

The only "oh dear, what are they doing here?" moment I had throughout the entire ReTrilogy development process was when they announced that Rebirth would end at the Forgotten Capital, and the endless baiting of "Is she gonna die???" in the subsequent months. (That and the obvious troll of a TGA trailer, but that's also a direct consequence of this decision).

Aerith's fate makes sense as the ending of the 2nd act in a story that's about trying to fight fate/change our destinies....but that is not what FF7's story is about?

FF7 is about a bunch of broken people, most of whom have suffered immeasurable loss, many who would be enemies with each other on the best of days, coming together and deciding that the fucked up, dying world they live in is worth saving, and it's about the personal journey of one man who best personifies this tension -- someone who has been so broken by loss and his own weakness that he's created an illusory world to avoid confronting this.

The natural end of act two / "dark night of the soul" moment for both of these stories takes place at the Northern Crater. Sephiroth summons Meteor, putting a literal ticking clock on the planet's destruction, and Cloud's psyche completely shatters. This is the lowest point possible for Cloud, our party, the entire world -- the real Empire Strikes Back moment, you can only go up from here.

In the OG, Aerith's death is so effective for two reasons:
1) It's a great narrative twist in that the game wants you to think that this the end of act 2 moment. Going back to our Star Wars analogy, you would think the rest of the game plays out like A New Hope after Obi-Wan dies. The party mourns, but her death gives them the motivation to recommit, regroup and soon defeat the enemy at the Northern Crater and save the world. But the story does not resolve at the Northern Crater. Instead the stakes escalate, and it's only then the game reveals what it's been all along.

2) Because so much plot happens in the immediate aftermath of her death, because we don't have time to reflect/mourn, her death feels more realistic and impactful. It's sudden, unexpected, but our reality/the story demands that we keep going.

Rebirth robs her death of the emotional impact from the OG because instead it being a sudden shock -- there's a portentous build-up for an entire chapter. Instead of one impactful goodbye, it's 3-4 different ones with diminishing returns interspersed with a like 15 stage boss fight. (Not to mention forcing us to see it through Cloud's fucked up POV, and the months and months of baity marketing pre-release).

That's also why the ending feels so convoluted and contrived -- it's not the natural act break for either the "save the planet" or the "Cloud's identity crisis" stories. But the game needs to make you feel like it is, so it throws so much shit at the wall that for a second, you might think that the world is actually ending. Except we're at the end of part 2 of a trilogy, and fucking Meteor still hasn't been summoned. And while Cloud is clearly losing it, he's still functioning. These are both escalations, but these are not the low points.

It's particularly annoying to me because I feel like the game/the devs know this. There's a reason Ch. 1 is the Nibelheim flashback and Cloud and Tifa fighting about their memories after Sephiroth tries to drive a wedge between them. This is the heart of the entire story -- and this story is clearly leading to the Northern Crater, where we get a different flashback of the Nibelheim incident and Sephiroth seems to sever their connection for good.

We hardly get anything about Aerith being a Cetra (or honestly Aerith at all, which I still don't understand) until Ch. 10 of this game, but then Ch. 14 is basically trying to gaslight us into thinking it's been about Aerith all along, but that isn't what this game has been building up to. Ironically by making Aerith's death into this "big" moment, they end up diminishing the emotional impact of said death and bungling her overall character development.

I don't mean to sound like such a hater, because I really loved 90% of Rebirth and thought all the expansions/additions elevated the story from the OG. But it just makes it all the more frustrating that they completely flopped the ending, because the obvious ending to this game has been staring us in the face all along.

 

[Axiom]

Well I'm still rolling at Cid/Vincent/Cait Sith. Well played game, well played.

I think the game makes the boys night out the priority if everyone's affection rating is equal and too low.

I think you maybe need a blue in at least one person in order to trigger their standard date, and then probably a light blue to get their intimate date.

 

[Rin]

So yeah, I wonder if Cloud saying "This isn't you" is just the truth hiding in plain sight. Which may also explain why we don't see her POV in the last chapter -- because they're still trying to hide the ball -- and the "Aerith" we/Cloud sees isn't actually her.

I think he says the same thing in JP, like in general he's a bit off put by her behaviour but someone else would have to confirm bc I'm not totally sure. But I had the same thought, that the Aerith in the dream date isn't our Aerith. It's more than likely the same Aerith from the resolution scene in Remake, the one that's closest to the future.

I just... don't see the point in why they've made everything so complicated. It's annoying

 

[starcape91]

Haven't seen the ending myself yet, but as someone who disliked the ending of Remake (everything after the highway escape especially) then sounds like I've prepared myself well enough for the ending of Rebirth. Since most of us here know the importance of that first Northern Crater visit, for Cloud's story arc especially, maybe we should be glad that it didn't end there - because they might've royally messed it up. Seems like most events that aren't at the end of these games are safe.

(With the exception of parts of the Shinra building - I really wish they would've not left out waking up in the jail cells and seeing the door open, with a trail of blood, and then the spiral staircase omission at the Shinra Manor, in fact the design of the manor left a lot to be desired for me, especially the ground floor. I'm hoping we'll have a reason to return in Part 3 and can explore upstairs I did notice that there's a long spiral staircase in The Temple of the Ancients though. Shows Cloud's descent into madness.)