SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[AncientGrimoire]

I find the which date is "canon" debate so silly (second only to song lyrics discourse, lol) because if the devs wanted a specific date to be canon, they obviously wouldn't have made said scene optional/variable, as they have for like 99% of the game? Like if your ship can't co-exist with certain "optional" scenes existing, maybe ya need to rethink it?

I think it's interesting that both Tifa and Aerith's dates have the flashback with them talking about Zack. That is probably the most plotty/lore-relevant part of the dates in general, and the devs probably expect most people to go for either Tifa or Aerith the first time around, so this way they make sure most players will have seen that by the end of their first play through. Whereas in the OG, Aerith's is really the only one with any story/lore-related content.

That being said, I still find it a baffling choice to lock a major turning point in Aerith's character arc behind optional scenes. Though I guess you can argue that NPTK is basically just the song version of what Aerith tries to tell Cloud on the gondola, but I think that is the devs having way too much faith in this particular fandom being able to put the puzzle pieces together lol

At the end of the day the Ultimania’s wouldn’t need to exist if the majority of the audience in the fandom were able to put everything together themselves

 

[Maidenofwar]

I've always found this take probably among the weirdest the extremists on that side say. I'd genuinely love to see a write up from their perspective explaining exactly how any of that stuff between Cloud and Tifa give sibling vibes. I assume most people don't wanna make out with their siblings afterall.

This is because extremists of CT say the same thing. Since some saw Cloud and Aerith being called siblings they do the same with Cloud and Tifa. Interchange mother/siblings/cousins/etc here.

 

[Sacky]

At the end of the day the Ultimania’s wouldn’t need to exist if the majority of the audience in the fandom were able to put everything together themselves

Some of that is on the developers themselves. Like this games ending, everyone is going to need an ultimania
to understand anything. The ultimanias should give you extra knowledge not explain entire plots thats just a failure of storytelling

 

[GamerSkull]

I think the issue is CT seems to be pretty firmly established. The problem is… we need these Ultimanias in order to refute CA’s because they will always insist on ‘reasonable doubt’.

 

[GamerSkull]

This is because extremists of CT say the same thing. Since some saw Cloud and Aerith being called siblings they do the same with Cloud and Tifa. Interchange mother/siblings/cousins/etc here.

Yeah, I don’t agree with that either. There are clear romantic implications with CA in the first half of OG. But I’ve always taken it as a red herring one. But that means it still existed.

 

[Rin]

This is because extremists of CT say the same thing. Since some saw Cloud and Aerith being called siblings they do the same with Cloud and Tifa. Interchange mother/siblings/cousins/etc here.

To be honest, this mostly came from Cloud's motion cap actor because when he was livestreaming himself playing Remake last year, he kept calling Aerith "onee-chan" and saying she has a big sister vibe w/ Cloud. Anytime Aerith would chide Cloud or drag him around etc., he'd call her big sister lol.

CTs took that and ran w/ it even though they shouldn't have lol

I think the issue is CT seems to be pretty firmly established. The problem is… we need these Ultimanias in order to refute CA’s because they will always insist on ‘reasonable doubt’.

Honestly, we don't need the ultimanias because then they just pretend they can't read when they're presented with direct quotes from it anyway. It's just better to ignore them altogether.

 

[Ryushikaze]

To be honest, this mostly came from Cloud's motion cap actor because when he was livestreaming himself playing Remake last year, he kept calling Aerith "onee-chan" and saying she has a big sister vibe w/ Cloud. Anytime Aerith would chide Cloud or drag him around etc., he'd call her big sister lol.

Isn't his mocap actor also dating or at least very flirty with Tifa's mocap actor? And IIRC aren't both of them also Clive and Jill?

CTs took that and ran w/ it even though they shouldn't have lol

There's also the fact that she's literally called mother several times in ACC, including by Cloud.

 

[insanehobbit]

Lol, I don't think the new Ultimania is gonna do anything to move the needle on this "debate." The Ultimanias for the OG/Compilation have been explicit about Cloud/Tifa's feelings for decades at this point, and yet the "debate" rages on. Though I suppose hope springs eternal.

The thing is, you absolutely do not need an Ultimania to understand what is going on with the GS dates. Anyone with eyes, ears and access to YouTube can see that Cloud kisses only one person in all these dates and can pretty easily suss out what we're meant to take away from this. No need for a guide book for that.

The ending -- yes, parts of it are incomprehensible without the help of an Ultimania, but I also don't know if the Ultimania is going to clear up much since it's meant to be deliberately confusing/mysterious. There may be more hints, but this is a "mystery" that won't be resolved until we get part 3.

I am curious if they'll explicitly state or at least heavily hint whether or not the Aerith in the "dream date" scenario is the same as "our" Aerith. The more I think about it, the more her actions do not line up with the one we see in Ch. 13 or even the one praying at the altar at the end, who is so focused on stopping Sephiroth/saving the planet. (But given how inconsistent her writing has been throughout the game, I can't discount the possibility of her being the same.)

Regardless, I still find it a weird choice, since the game obviously wants us to think that this is "our" Aerith, but her actions left me feeling very conflicted about her character right up to her death, which undermines the emotional impact of that moment, especially since it also robs us of the full party's reaction.

 

[Rin]

I am curious if they'll explicitly state or at least heavily hint whether or not the Aerith in the "dream date" scenario is the same as "our" Aerith. The more I think about it, the more her actions do not line up with the one we see in Ch. 13 or even the one praying at the altar at the end, who is so focused on stopping Sephiroth/saving the planet. (But given how inconsistent her writing has been throughout the game, I can't discount the possibility of her being the same.)

Honestly, they probably will since they confirmed the one in her resolution scene isn't "our Aerith" in the Remake ultimania. All they'd have to say is that the resolution scene Aerith and the dream date Aerith are the same one, I think.

Isn't his mocap actor also dating or at least very flirty with Tifa's mocap actor? And IIRC aren't both of them also Clive and Jill?


There's also the fact that she's literally called mother several times in ACC, including by Cloud.

Not sure about the dating, but yes they're the same mocap actors for Clive and Jill as well.

All I can say is that as Clouds mocap actor, he'd know better than most how CA touches and body language are supposed to be read/what they're meant to convey but I still think calling them sibling-like at this point in the story isn't totally accurate since Aerith is trying to explore a romantic connection.

 

[Hellenic]

Or raise a drink to them and say “Beautiful” in an obvious attempt at flirting.

I think I saw one of them use the “fist bump” they have right before the QB competition to say they’re like best friends or siblings. As if to imply… that your romantic partner can’t also be your best friend.

No see, Cloud called the drink beautiful /s.

And yeah they did use the shot of the fist bump pre-release iirc as some "proof" of them friendzoning each other.

 

[GamerSkull]

No see, Cloud called the drink beautiful /s.

And yeah they did use the shot of the fist bump pre-release iirc as some "proof" of them friendzoning each other.

But he looks straight at Tifa, not the drink… and she looks away blushing.

Also yeah… cool thing about being someone’s friend is that you can also be their lover at the same time. Not mutually exclusive lmao.

 

[Hellenic]

This is because extremists of CT say the same thing. Since some saw Cloud and Aerith being called siblings they do the same with Cloud and Tifa. Interchange mother/siblings/cousins/etc here.

Yeah i do think both sides kinda fuel the hate against each other, so the extremes cook up the weirdest takes just to pour out their frustrations.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

It’s the whole Batman and Joker dynamic.

They can’t exist or function without the other.

No different I guess to the rivalry you can get between fans of different sporting teams.

 

[billy22]

The thing is, you absolutely do not need an Ultimania to understand what is going on with the GS dates. Anyone with eyes, ears and access to YouTube can see that Cloud kisses only one person in all these dates and can pretty easily suss out what we're meant to take away from this. No need for a guide book for that.

"Because the developers felt they had to give Tifa something" -the best cope response to this I've heard thus far.

Regardless, I still find it a weird choice, since the game obviously wants us to think that this is "our" Aerith, but her actions left me feeling very conflicted about her character right up to her death, which undermines the emotional impact of that moment, especially since it also robs us of the full party's reaction.

People are talking about how we're going to get the full Aerith death scene in Part 3 when Cloud regains his mind, but I'm skeptical myself. It feels like we got the censored version in order to appeal to a Teen-rated audience and modern sensibilities rather than some story reason. Similar to how Cid doesn't smoke anymore.

No, you're absolutely correct. Several parts of the narrative simple do not work if Tifa is not special to Cloud and Cloud is not special to Tifa. Even moreso in Rebirth where IRiftiroth has been trying to sow doubts in Cloud about Tifa and try and bump her off. He is working with future knowledge that she's the threat to keeping Cloud on his strings.

Why doesn't he try to kill Tifa directly then like he does with Aerith?

Yeah, as I recall it… they were one single character that got essentially split into two, right?

I don't remember where this image came from, but basically:

• Tifa and Aerith were one character. This girl had Tifa's looks and name, but Aerith's backstory and personality. When it was decided they were going to kill off "Tifa," they split the character in two, because they wanted a heroine present for the latter half of the story. Thus, "Aerith" was born, with a new design but the original personality/backstory, while "Tifa" retained her name and appearance but was given a different personality to contrast.
• Barret was named "Blow."
• Reno and Rude had their names reversed.
• Sephiroth looked closer to Vincent and was related to Aerith/Tifa iirc.

 

[Stiggie]

Out of curiosity, what would you guys say constitutes an extremist for either side? Since I don't think the debate is equal (at all) I don't think that an extremist belief on one side would necessarily count as an extremist belief on the other.

To be honest, thinking that Cloud loves both girls equally already counts as being an extremist Clerith in my mind.

As for extremists Cloti, I'd say it's when they claim Cloud hates Aerith, or that it is 100% confirmed canon that Cloud has zero romantic interest in Aerith at any point. Anything less than that I'd consider a pretty normal interpretation.

 

[GamerSkull]

"Because the developers felt they had to give Tifa something" -the best cope response to this I've heard thus far.



People are talking about how we're going to get the full Aerith death scene in Part 3 when Cloud regains his mind, but I'm skeptical myself. It feels like we got the censored version in order to appeal to a Teen-rated audience and modern sensibilities rather than some story reason. Similar to how Cid doesn't smoke anymore.



Why doesn't he try to kill Tifa directly then like he does with Aerith?



View attachment 14975
I don't remember where this image came from, but basically:

• Tifa and Aerith were one character. This girl had Tifa's looks and name, but Aerith's backstory and personality. When it was decided they were going to kill off "Tifa," they split the character in two, because they wanted a heroine present for the latter half of the story. Thus, "Aerith" was born, with a new design but the original personality/backstory, while "Tifa" retained her name and appearance but was given a different personality to contrast.
• Barret was named "Blow."
• Reno and Rude had their names reversed.
• Sephiroth looked closer to Vincent and was related to Aerith/Tifa iirc.

Well, you can see the Cloud is clearly mouthing the dialogue that he had in the OG. So I think we’ll probably still see it… if censorship is an issue then they’ll not have much blood but I can still see them showing the full scene during the Northern Cave.

Showing an abdomen stab would not really hurt the T-rating since it happens to Cloud a lot. In fact, I’d say his stabbing in Nibelheim’s reactor is worse, just that no blood is shown. Surely they can do the same with Aerith.

Plus, they somewhat show Tifa getting slashed too. They also show President Shinra and Barret being stabbed in Remake.

So they’ll tone down the blood but the scene itself isn’t off the table.

 

[Axiom]

Out of curiosity, what would you guys say constitutes an extremist for either side? Since I don't think the debate is equal (at all) I don't think that an extremist belief on one side would necessarily count as an extremist belief on the other.

To be honest, thinking that Cloud loves both girls equally already counts as being an extremist Clerith in my mind.

As for extremists Cloti, I'd say it's when they claim Cloud hates Aerith, or that it is 100% confirmed canon that Cloud has zero romantic interest in Aerith at any point. Anything less than that I'd consider a pretty normal interpretation.

Oh, this is easy.

For Tifa fans, it's anyone that thinks Aerith is a homewrecker and trying to steal Cloud from Tifa. Especially since she herself pushes Cloud and Tifa closer at times. I'm convinced that Aerith probably thinks that she can make a threesome between the 3 of them work. And yes, I do think that Cloud having feelings for Aerith is a valid interpretation. It would be rude to deny Aerith fans of that interpretation.

For Aerith fans, it's basically anyone who refuses to accept the kiss at face value. Or anyone that thought Tifa bullied Cloud. Or anyone that refuses to accept the obvious implications of a man and a woman spending the entire night together and waking up in eachothers arms. Or think that Cloud ditched Tifa for Aerith because Advent Children has him being depressed. Or thinks that Cloud swore off women for the rest of his life after Advent Children.

Naturally, there are going to be more Aerith extremists rather than Tifa ones. For the simple fact that if Cloud loves both, then Tifa wins the love triangle. There's no Aerith endgame. In order to even headcanon one, you must first assume that Cloud isn't happy with Tifa and is saving himself for Aerith's ghost. The problem is that Tifa has the rest of their adult lives to seduce Cloud again, and Tifa looks like Tifa.

 

[Stiggie]

Well, you can see the Cloud is clearly mouthing the dialogue that he had in the OG. So I think we’ll probably still see it… if censorship is an issue then they’ll not have much blood but I can still see them showing the full scene during the Northern Cave.

Showing an abdomen stab would not really hurt the T-rating since it happens to Cloud a lot. In fact, I’d say his stabbing in Nibelheim’s reactor is worse, just that no blood is shown. Surely they can do the same with Aerith.

Plus, they somewhat show Tifa getting slashed too. They also show President Shinra and Barret being stabbed in Remake.

So they’ll tone down the blood but the scene itself isn’t off the table.

Honestly, I don't like how they did the Tifa slash. Should have been MUCH more severe. The way I imagined it when reading Totp was gruesome. Her rehabilitation and the description of the required procedure made it seems like, well, like it would make sense for Cloud to go "she obviously died, there's NO WAY anyone could live that". But the injury in Rebirth was more like "well, that would require some stiches sure but you could probably finish your shift first". I have no idea why Cloud would think that would kill her.

 

[billy22]

Well, you can see the Cloud is clearly mouthing the dialogue that he had in the OG. So I think we’ll probably still see it… if censorship is an issue then they’ll not have much blood but I can still see them showing the full scene during the Northern Cave.

Showing an abdomen stab would not really hurt the T-rating since it happens to Cloud a lot. In fact, I’d say his stabbing in Nibelheim’s reactor is worse, just that no blood is shown. Surely they can do the same with Aerith.

My assumption is that they consider some blood less graphic than seeing a sword impaling an innocent girl.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

So, I'm on a smartphone and cba to edit a large post into a manageable quote, plus it feels unnecessary since it's mostly just been good thoughts I can just like and move on in here. But as Ryu's Pedantry Protege, I have to ask... Were we being serious 3ish pages back when Tifa was referred to as a "normal girl who knows a bit of martial arts" or was that humorous downplaying? Because Tifa is, according to recent materials, a master of martial arts who has adapted Zangans teachings to her own body and methods so thoroughly it's not really his style anymore. She doesn't even want to finish her training under him, she wants to fight him to test herself/her style against him/his

 

[GamerSkull]

My assumption is that they consider some blood less graphic than seeing a sword impaling an innocent girl.

I see. I guess I can see it being an issue but I’m still confident we’ll get it. I guess we’ll have to find out. At the very least, we are for sure getting the burial scene.

 

[GamerSkull]

So, I'm on a smartphone and cba to edit a large post into a manageable quote, plus it feels unnecessary since it's mostly just been good thoughts I can just like and move on in here. But as Ryu's Pedantry Protege, I have to ask... Were we being serious 3ish pages back when Tifa was referred to as a "normal girl who knows a bit of martial arts" or was that humorous downplaying? Because Tifa is, according to recent materials, a master of martial arts who has adapted Zangans teachings to her own body and methods so thoroughly it's not really his style anymore. She doesn't even want to finish her training under him, she wants to fight him to test herself/her style against him/his

Hope we see Zangan again in Part 3. His absence in the OG aside from a note in Tifa’s house has felt like a loose end that needs answering.

 

[Eerie]

Isn't his mocap actor also dating or at least very flirty with Tifa's mocap actor? And IIRC aren't both of them also Clive and Jill?

They're not dating lol she got married in December but they both like Cloti that is true.

Honestly, I don't like how they did the Tifa slash.

I think they did it that specific way for Gongaga, so we could see that this move Cloud did was specifically Sephiroth's. It's even more damning as as she falls in the mako pool is exactly the same as she falls in those stairs.

Also I'm a pretty extremist CT in that, I do not believe Cloud had any romantic feelings for Aerith. Any attraction was killed on spot by him remembering Zack loved her. The story also does not work if he falls for her. He's a 100% Tifa man and SE has been pretty clear that he's loyal to Tifa too since that promise (personally my take is that CA was not possible as soon as the Mt Nibel fall happened and we're probably going to see that in the Lifestream scene). If you look at the GS play, this is extremely visible in how he handles both girls during the swirl.

However, I do believe they have a deep bond (but not soulmate like sorry: if to communicate with him she uses her powers on him, that does not count... Zerith now, that's another level of connection, as well as cloti because well, she visits Cloud's mind, so sorry but SE will never sell me that platonic soulmate CA, it's just not there).

And Aerith in her date and church is definitely not "our" Aerith. "Our" Aerith was found fine and awake by the team, it's Cloud who awakes later on, once he's been pushed back into "our" world.

 

[liuliuliu]

No see, Cloud called the drink beautiful /s.

And yeah they did use the shot of the fist bump pre-release iirc as some "proof" of them friendzoning each other.

consider those are the people who said high five is extremely romantic where fist bump is friendzoned.
There is a certain character got friendzoned in the end of the game. Guess who is she

 

[Hellenic]

Similar to how Cid doesn't smoke anymore.

Could still pull that lil ole cigarette when he ends up being frustrated or something during the Rocket Town arc. President Shinra did smoke in Remake so i don't see any reason to not let Cid do it.