SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LunarTarotGirl]

Extremists on both sides call the other delusional.

I’m of the opinion that there were seeds of a romance between Cloud and Aerith until her death. However, assuming Aerith lived then would the romance continue once the real Cloud remembered who he was? That, we’ll never know.

Moreover, would Aerith still be attracted to the real Cloud in the same capacity? Another question we’ll never truly get the answer to.

Similar to how I view it.

And yeah I never really care to call people delusional. Like I'm sure there are obssesed people on the fringes completely divorced from reality but the majority are just reacting to what we're given. And basically I see as I get deeper in this game that it will definitely be viewed differently whether you're a CA or a CT will affect the interpretation of certain parts. And I'm starting to get the feeling this is deliberate. We can fight, we can call it fanservice or whatever it still lets each group get what they want in the end.

So unless people are way out there I wouldn't see either of them as delusional in this case. They could maybe be incorrect but they'd still have a point.

Most of the problems I see with extremists however is not delusion or reasonable doubt it's willfull ignorance. Like pretending Ultimania don't mean anything etc.

 

[Axiom]

tbh, I find it difficult to compare Cloud/Aerith's dynamic to any other relationship in media, because how many other stories have a woman being attracted to another man because he reminds her of her ex AND for the reveal to be that said man was actually pretending to be her ex/was best friends with him all along? There are so many layers/so many other people outside of the relationship who complicate it.

(Side note, but if people wanna see a film that explores the Zack/Aerith/Cloud dynamic without a complicating Tifa character -- check out Asako I & II by Ryūsuke Hamaguchi. Spoiler alert: it's a hot mess, but a great film!)

For Aerith, I think the Eowyn/Aragorn comp still works best. She knows him for a short period of that time, and spends most of that time loving/chasing a "shadow," but that experience still transforms her.

On Cloud's end, it's much more complicated. He clearly cares for her a lot, but while she confides in him about her fears/feelings, he doesn't really reciprocate. Which is no disrespect to her, at this point in the story, he's pretty much emotionally incapable of doing that with anyone but Tifa.

Post OG/Compilation/even Remake, I could entertain the idea of some lingering romantic attraction/what-if on his end. After Rebirth, it's harder for me to believe, because if he did, why would he look visibly upset/try to pull his arm away from Aerith after she calls their Kalm outing a "date?" It's a stark contrast to the Train Graveyard in Remake where he looks pretty stoic/blase after Aerith grabs his arm in front of Tifa. Even if you wanna thread the needle and argue that he is romantically interested in Aerith but also doesn't want to ruin his chances with Tifa, how do you explain how he acts in Aerith's GS date where Tifa isn't present? Aerith pats the spot next to her and gives Cloud the choice to sit near her, make it more intimate/romantic, and he deliberately chooses to sit farther away.

Post-death/Post-Lifestream, I think his feelings for her are still very complicated, but guilt and regret probably rise to the top. Not only because he failed to protect her, and not only because he also failed Zack in the process, but because of how he treated her in the short time that they knew each other. Yes, he was a fucking dick to everyone in the party when he wasn't himself, but he has years and years to make it up to them, for them to get to know the "real" Cloud. He's never going to get that chance with her.

I think Clerith can work in a story without Tifa. But therein lies our problem.

I always took it that Cloud doesnt want Tifa to get the wrong idea, and so sets a few boundaries. He knows Tifa and Aerith talk, so he doesnt ever cross the line with Aerith. I imagine that if Tifa ever calls him out on the hand holding, he'd be like "Yeah, she looked pretty upset so I tried to comfort her". Whereas if Aerith calls out the kiss, he's caught dead to rights.

 

[Rin]

Most of the problems I see with extremists however is not delusion or reasonable doubt it's willfull ignorance. Like pretending Ultimania don't mean anything etc.

Truly. The issue for me is never what people prefer to ship, it's the willful ignorance of canon that gets on my nerves. No one has to like canon, there are tons of media where I don't enjoy the canon route but why would I sit there and be like "Ya, that's not canon actually."

It's nonsensical when you can instead say, "Yeah, I hated that so I ignore it and go with fanon." Cause then who can argue with that? No one! But instead certain fans try to argue with canon and twist facts. And I just wonder how they're not tired? Cause I'm tired just watching them move the goal posts around every time new content comes out.

 

[hytekz]

I think Clerith can work in a story without Tifa. But therein lies our problem.

I always took it that Cloud doesnt want Tifa to get the wrong idea, and so sets a few boundaries. He knows Tifa and Aerith talk, so he doesnt ever cross the line with Aerith. I imagine that if Tifa ever calls him out on the hand holding, he'd be like "Yeah, she looked pretty upset so I tried to comfort her". Whereas if Aerith calls out the kiss, he's caught dead to rights.

I think that's why they put the kiss in this game. It's to cancel all the "but Cloud just ends up with Tifa because Aerith is dead"

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

The thing is that while it's supposed to be read as potentially romantic, or romantic adjacent, the problem is that that really doesn't tell us anything.

If it's a red herring then that still makes sense
If it's fanservice but not ultimately real that still makes sense
If Aerith is delusionally coping with the death of Zack that still makes sense
If Aerith is doing romantic stuff with Cloud because she's attracted to the Zack part of him that still makes sense
If there is romance but only because Cloud is not right in the head that still makes sense
If there is some romance there but only in service to Tifa and Clouds romance that still makes sense
It could be a combination of all these things where the resolution is that the genuine romance was Tifa all along, and still make sense

Ultimately people are not called delusional simply because they think that there are romantic scenes with Aerith, they're called delusional because they give undue significance to those moments while trying to sweep stuff like Cloud and Tifa kissing under the mattress.

Essentially, it's this meme.

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You have a point about the way it's presented. The romantic elements are very vague thus all those interpretations do fit I agree. But my point is there is this idea with for example the SENA conspiracy scapegoat that none of the romantically adjacent stuff is intentional.

That it's a mistranslation or a mistake or CA's are just seeing things.

And I was talking about that as an example of bad faith bc it happens often that people are not seeing things theyre reacting to what they see. And both extremists sides will act as if those people are crazy for it.

And I was saying how if the devs are supposedly not wanting CA's to see it that way it feels like a set up bc of course those that favor Aerith and Cloud would. Especially with romantic framing.

But in general I was just agreeing that extremists are anyone with any stance who willfully argues in bad faith.

 

[LNK]

Truly. The issue for me is never what people prefer to ship, it's the willful ignorance of canon that gets on my nerves. No one has to like canon, there are tons of media where I don't enjoy the canon route but why would I sit there and be like "Ya, that's not canon actually."

It's nonsensical when you can instead say, "Yeah, I hated that so I ignore it and go with fanon." Cause then who can argue with that? No one! But instead certain fans try to argue with canon and twist facts. And I just wonder how they're not tired? Cause I'm tired just watching them move the goal posts around every time new content comes out.

I think it's a feeling of being validated.

 

[Rin]

And I was saying how if the devs are supposedly not wanting CA's to see it that way it feels like a set up bc of course those that favor Aerith and Cloud would. Especially with romantic framing.

I agree w/ what you're saying here but also wanted to say that ultimately, I think CA or CT just standing next to each other would cause fans who favour them to see something no matter what--which is fine by me because that's what shippers are gonna do.

For example, I've seen CA fans say that the scene in ACC where Cloud calls Aerith his mother is a romantic moment even though Zack is right there and him and Aerith are making light of it by saying Cloud is too big to adopt lol. Like for the most part a lot of extremist shippers don't care about context so long as their ship is interacting in some way.

I think it's a feeling of being validated.

Yeah, definitely. But... sometimes you can't always get what you want, so it's better to just accept reality and then go out and make your own content if that's what brings you joy. You can't strong arm a whole game company into doing what you want. Hasn't worked in their favour even one time.

 

[shady]

No see, Cloud called the drink beautiful /s.

And yeah they did use the shot of the fist bump pre-release iirc as some "proof" of them friendzoning each other.

It was "sibling coded" apparently.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I agree w/ what you're saying here but also wanted to say that ultimately, I think CA or CT just standing next to each other would cause fans who favour them to see something no matter what--which is fine by me because that's what shippers are gonna do.

For example, I've seen CA fans say that the scene in ACC where Cloud calls Aerith his mother is a romantic moment even though Zack is right there and him and Aerith are making light of it by saying Cloud is too big to adopt lol. Like for the most part a lot of extremist shippers don't care about context so long as their ship is interacting in some way.

Yeah, definitely. But... sometimes you can't always get what you want, so it's better to just accept reality and then go out and make your own content if that's what brings you joy. You can't strong arm a whole game company into doing what you want. Hasn't worked in their favour even one time.

I 100% agree but what I mean here is the way the scenes are shown. Like Aerith and Cloud get called a couple for example. And in JP he is talking about how he is bad at dates then she teases him being nervous. The stumble and almost kiss. This is 100% fuel.

Stuff like that goes beyond "shippers gonna ship". Though I agree just standing in the same frame would do it too...in this case it seems to me to be intentionally designed to get that response.

And idk how I feel about that bc and I wonder why bc in the end it seems they want to show CT and ZA endgame while still allowing CA's to see what we want.

And I agree and that's why even though I usually ship non canon you will never catch me arguing against canon materials. I just accept whatever I am given. I wish more people would.

 

[LNK]

Yeah, definitely. But... sometimes you can't always get what you want, so it's better to just accept reality and then go out and make your own content if that's what brings you joy. You can't strong arm a whole game company into doing what you want. Hasn't worked in their favour even one time.

Oh I agree. There's always those that don't care about anyone but themselves though. As long as they're pleased, nothing else matters

 

[GamerSkull]

View attachment 14982

It was "sibling coded" apparently.

There’s almost a hilarious irony to that tweet.

 

[Rin]

I 100% agree but what I mean here is the way the scenes are shown. Like Aerith and Cloud get called a couple for example. And in JP he is talking about how he is bad at dates then she teases him being nervous.

Stuff like that goes beyond "shippers gonna ship". Though I agree just standing in the same frame would do it too...in this case it seems to me to be intentionally designed to get that response.

Honestly, the NPCs do this for him and Yuffie too at certain points of the game (and Aerith herself romanticizes them hanging out lol) so comments like that have started becoming meaningless to me. I think it's really just heteronormativity at play lol which... yes, shippers are going to read into but I also think this is a game where you need to play every route to understand that certain things just aren't that important--including NPCs misreading party dynamics.

It's like the NPCs who think Nanaki is Clouds dog. Should we actually take that seriously? Probably not since Nanaki is a fully sentient animal but it's not like the NPCs know that.

Oh I agree. There's always those that don't care about anyone but themselves though. As long as they're pleased, nothing else matters

So exhausting lol I don't know how they live like that.

 

[Stiggie]

There’s almost a hilarious irony to that tweet.

The annoying part is that we'll never get that person admit that they were wrong, not about clerith, but about that specific tweet, I'd like just one acknowledgement, just once

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@Rin Yeah I agree but it's basically not really about what's actually there but how it is perceived. Also Cloud just never denies it. Like with the Aerith date too Madam M calls her his girlfriend and he doesn't deny it.

The truth is they're always going to give the shippers something. So I can definitely see why besides from willfull ignorance some would read into it. I expect them to. And I think to an extent creators also may expect it too. Even if the intent in context is different. And it's not like it's exactly discouraged either.

And that's why it's important to have honest discussions about these things instead of shutting people down, acting like people are crazy or stupid etc and I mean this for any fandom.

 

[insanehobbit]

Yeah, I think there are always going to be people who see any CA scene as romantic because a) it's two hot people sharing a frame; b) there's obvious romantic interest on Aerith's end. So if there are shippers who want to avoid every optional Tifa scene (and skip the non-optional ones if they want, I guess LOL), and give SE their money, that's their prerogative.

For everyone else, I do feel like the game encourages you to do the Aerith & Tifa sidequests in CdS back-to-back. There's no real reason for Tifa's quest to be locked behind the bathing suit thing (it's not a progression thing like with the Chocobo races), and Jules literally crashes the end of Aerith's quest so that the "date" concludes in a pretty strange and anticlimatic way, while also heavily suggesting -- "hey do this one next!"

So on its own, sure I guess I can see how some people might interpret the "date" as Cloud just being nervous/playing hard to get, but if you contrast that with the conversation he has with Tifa on their gym rat "bro hang," it really is night and day. He has no problem continuing and even leading the conversation with Tifa.

There's even a shared subject between the two quests. During Aerith's, he agrees with her that he doesn't care about food...and proceeds to spend the entirety of Tifa's quest talking to Tifa about their food preferences, lol.

I also don't think this version of Tifa would care that Cloud held Aerith's hand on the gondola. In fact, she probably would have been pissed if she found out that he didn't do anything to comfort her, and just sat around like a useless dead fish. Rebirth!Tifa is refreshingly not jealous/possessive at all. She likes to see the "weird loner" boy from her childhood making new friends. Like in her optional dialogue thing at Costa del Sol, she's surprised, but very pleasantly so, that Cloud had a conversation with Barret about a new Seventh Heaven that she didn't know about. Look how far that boy has come since Remake. Growth!

 

[LNK]

So exhausting lol I don't know how they live like that

Right? They don't even care that it makes the characters look like really crappy people, when they don't actually come across that way.

 

[LNK]

And that's why it's important to have honest discussions about these things instead of shutting people down, acting like people are crazy or stupid etc and I mean this for any fandom.

I agree to an extant. Some people are just not worth having the discussion with though. The extreme is an extreme for a reason. Those people aren't there to have honest conversations.

 

[Hellenic]

View attachment 14982

It was "sibling coded" apparently.

Yeah that's the post i was thinking of.

 

[shady]

The fuel for LTD shipping is 100% provided by SE without a doubt. Like it gets to a point where, yes I think CT is the canon romance but I cannot 100% discredit everything that CA's believe either -- unless developers intentionally say so after the fact -- because what they do is give crumbs to both sides to the point where, if both sides argue fairly, they both have points they can make.

Maybe they'll prove me wrong in Part 3 -- because there's been some scenes in this game that you could consider an LTD killer -- but I've often said they just don't have the stones to fully commit to the one side and tell the story they want to tell because they seem to be terrified of alienating one of the sides, the sides that they've fueled for 27 years rather than just say outright what the situation is.

Also because they don't want to fully commit, they want to have their cake and eat it, the characters and the overall story suffer as a result and the fandom becomes toxic, because we're all camping in here chatting about this shit when instead we should be chatting about the great relationships these characters have regardless of romance and about the game itself. Nobody wants this LTD shit anymore, nor have they wanted it for a long ass time, but SE just cannot help themselves it seems.

Like we all have to deal with takes like this



Just as we have to deal with equally bad takes about Aerith or Clerith, like her being a homewrecker or whatever. SE just pull the damn plug man.

 

[Rin]

Like with the Aerith date too Madam M calls her his girlfriend and he doesn't deny it.

Yeah, but she says this for Yuffie as well and he also doesn't deny it. Their dialogue doesn't change no matter which girl Cloud is hanging out with, at least if you're talking about the Rebirth scene in Chocobo Square.

Which is why I'm agreeing w/ you overall but I just think if the fandom has enough sense to realize they shouldn't take NPC Cloud/Yuffie misconceptions all that seriously, it's not that difficult to apply the same logic to CA. The "issue" is that they don't want to and it works as a nice confirmation bias for their preference. Again, I don't care about this particularly because shippers are gonna ship, but I don't consider NPCs misreading the group dynamics as an example of SE playing the fence because there's always going to be a difference in how the devs portray genuine romantic scenes vs. the generic, "haha Cloud is hanging out with a girl" gags, y'know?

Now I do think there ARE crumbs for this ship and that SE is playing the fence in a way (while still leaning to CT), I just don't think those side quests & NPC comments are it.

 

[Someonesbunny]

While I understand the idea of ship fuel being these small moments that people can enjoy on their own, I think it's disingenuous not to take these moments as part of the totality of the story. To be clear, I think it's fair to have been excited by the "stumble-to-breathing-range" moment between Cloud and Aerith on the gondola, but it seems a little dishonest not to see this as contextually tied to him choosing to sit across from her when she motions him next to her in the literal seconds that succeed this moment.

I understand the point that if you are a CA shipper, you would prefer to simply skip all the Tifa content, and I suppose that's fine, but this does somewhat constitute a willful blindness. All materials exist to be compared and contrasted in order to discern precisely the relationships that each of them have with the protagonist. Now, if we're only talking about shipping and preference, again, that's fine - but more often than not, we'd be debating canon, so personal player choice doesn't really come into play. On that, I think that the the only proper way of reviewing any of these materials would be to treat every scene that exists as something that was meant to be viewed and to accept that every scene that has a high/low threshold for each scene version is to be treated as pass/fail.

I don't think there's too much to interpret anyway since so much of this was sort of on the nose.

 

[GamerSkull]

The fuel for LTD shipping is 100% provided by SE without a doubt. Like it gets to a point where, yes I think CT is the canon romance but I cannot 100% discredit everything that CA's believe either -- unless developers intentionally say so after the fact -- because what they do is give crumbs to both sides to the point where, if both sides argue fairly, they both have points they can make.

Maybe they'll prove me wrong in Part 3 -- because there's been some scenes in this game that you could consider an LTD killer -- but I've often said they just don't have the stones to fully commit to the one side and tell the story they want to tell because they seem to be terrified of alienating one of the sides, the sides that they've fueled for 27 years rather than just say outright what the situation is.

Also because they don't want to fully commit, they want to have their cake and eat it, the characters and the overall story suffer as a result and the fandom becomes toxic, because we're all camping in here chatting about this shit when instead we should be chatting about the great relationships these characters have regardless of romance and about the game itself. Nobody wants this LTD shit anymore, nor have they wanted it for a long ass time, but SE just cannot help themselves it seems.

Like we all have to deal with takes like this

View attachment 14983View attachment 14984View attachment 14985View attachment 14986

Just as we have to deal with equally bad takes about Aerith or Clerith, like her being a homewrecker or whatever. SE just pull the damn plug man.

Ooof that post hurts my soul.

This is an example of an extremist post. Specifically the final part about Tifa.

 

[Shadowfox]

This is what makes me laugh the most, all the anti-CT talking points that they've used for years gets flat out debunked by Nojima every time. I have a running list of all the things they've said and all the ways he's addressed them in the last 4 years. It's so funny and it's definitely because he sees the comments and is like "No" because the debunking is so specifically curated to their exact claims.

It probably is like that. Even AC Cloud the sad loner who isolates himself from his friends was specifically depicted as such by SE because of the popular fandom image of him post-OG. The difference being that fans imagined him being alone because he was pining for his dead love Aerith; whereas SE had AC (and ACC especiallyl) show that him being alone was due to lingering guilt and his own impending death, and then showed that without those things weighing him down, he's actually a family man, openly affectionate and caring to his loved ones.

Out of curiosity, what would you guys say constitutes an extremist for either side? Since I don't think the debate is equal (at all) I don't think that an extremist belief on one side would necessarily count as an extremist belief on the other.

An extremist for me would be one who insists on willfully misunderstanding and maligning the story and characters, or deliberately ignores aspects of them to maintain a skewed idea of the work. In terms of this LTD, if someone were to acknowledge the events and story of FFVII, or the characters as they are presented to us by the creators, and still decide that they want to ship another couple because it appeals to them more, then that's not an extremist; that's just a fan like any other.

What's funny about the high five is that now Cloud and Tifa also got it and more. So much for that from Remake.

Even Tifa and Aerith got their share of high fives with each other in Remake. So, yeah, if anyone wants to claim that high fives are romantic, then they must never deny the truth of Aerti.

 

[LNK]

The fuel for LTD shipping is 100% provided by SE without a doubt. Like it gets to a point where, yes I think CT is the canon romance but I cannot 100% discredit everything that CA's believe either -- unless developers intentionally say so after the fact -- because what they do is give crumbs to both sides to the point where, if both sides argue fairly, they both have points they can make.

Maybe they'll prove me wrong in Part 3 -- because there's been some scenes in this game that you could consider an LTD killer -- but I've often said they just don't have the stones to fully commit to the one side and tell the story they want to tell because they seem to be terrified of alienating one of the sides, the sides that they've fueled for 27 years rather than just say outright what the situation is.

Also because they don't want to fully commit, they want to have their cake and eat it, the characters and the overall story suffer as a result and the fandom becomes toxic, because we're all camping in here chatting about this shit when instead we should be chatting about the great relationships these characters have regardless of romance and about the game itself. Nobody wants this LTD shit anymore, nor have they wanted it for a long ass time, but SE just cannot help themselves it seems.

Like we all have to deal with takes like this

View attachment 14983View attachment 14984View attachment 14985View attachment 14986

Just as we have to deal with equally bad takes about Aerith or Clerith, like her being a homewrecker or whatever. SE just pull the damn plug man.

I actually like the way SE has handled the LT. Call me silly for appreciating complex relationships that aren't super straight forward and black/white.

Prior to Aerith's death, there's a chance Cloud had feelings for Aerith. Pretty vague about it though. With Tifa, we know Cloud always had feelings for her. Clerith's are simply clinging to "what if."

 

[AncientGrimoire]

The fuel for LTD shipping is 100% provided by SE without a doubt. Like it gets to a point where, yes I think CT is the canon romance but I cannot 100% discredit everything that CA's believe either -- unless developers intentionally say so after the fact -- because what they do is give crumbs to both sides to the point where, if both sides argue fairly, they both have points they can make.

Maybe they'll prove me wrong in Part 3 -- because there's been some scenes in this game that you could consider an LTD killer -- but I've often said they just don't have the stones to fully commit to the one side and tell the story they want to tell because they seem to be terrified of alienating one of the sides, the sides that they've fueled for 27 years rather than just say outright what the situation is.

Also because they don't want to fully commit, they want to have their cake and eat it, the characters and the overall story suffer as a result and the fandom becomes toxic, because we're all camping in here chatting about this shit when instead we should be chatting about the great relationships these characters have regardless of romance and about the game itself. Nobody wants this LTD shit anymore, nor have they wanted it for a long ass time, but SE just cannot help themselves it seems.

Like we all have to deal with takes like this

View attachment 14983View attachment 14984View attachment 14985View attachment 14986

Just as we have to deal with equally bad takes about Aerith or Clerith, like her being a homewrecker or whatever. SE just pull the damn plug man.

To have takes like these, you must be ending up on an astral plane with all that projection.