SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[insanehobbit]

Shit was wild. Meeting in the flower fields for spirit sex!

omg, not that! And that old thread you dug up reminded me of the koi_bito vs. koibito wars LMAO. This is what happens when there were like only one or two actual native speakers on the forums, and everyone else was putting shit through Babelfish and praying. How we've all managed to become seemingly functioning adults after all of that amazes me.

My gut feeling is the opposite actually. One of my main issues when trying to predict how the remake project would be divided up was thinking about how the story is very front loaded when it comes to plot content. Stuff like fighting the weapons all feels like a lot of "doing stuff" but not really moving the plot forward.
I think that one of the motivations for the weird Aerith timeline nonsense was to add in some more content for part 3.
But I'm guessing Cloud breaking and being repaired will be left for more towards the end of the game. If we take rebirths 14 chapter structure I wouldn't be surprised if Cloud snaps in chapter 9, chapter 10 is Midgar escape, chapter 11 some weapon stuff plus lifestream. Chapter 12 weapon stuff, Chapter 13 Midgar conclusion, chapter 14 Northern cave.
My guess is that there will be a quite lengthy part prior to all that which deals with Cloud seeing Aerith, and it won't be resolved, it will be part of what finally breaks him.
I'm guessing that after the lifestream he will not see Aerith again, unless it is as a goodbye.

My biggest fear, the thing that I could most see them do that in my opinion would absolutely ruin the game and story, would be if they actually somehow kept an affection system going in part 3, that that's why they kept Aerith around, so they can play that bullshit for a third time. That is the shit that would kill the game for me before it's even out.
What would be funny though, if there were an affection system to get "the good ending" for Tifa and/or Aerith, but the good ending with Aerith is her getting a romantic ending with Zack XD

I am the furthest thing from an optimist, but I can't say I share any of these fears.

I think if anything, the story is backloaded. I think it was a terrible mistake and probably the biggest mistake of Rebirth for it to end at the Forgotten Capital rather than the Northern Crater, because we still have two disks of the OG left!! There's so much to cover in part 3.

Northern Crater/Cloud's collapse is gonna be the End of Act One moment, so you'll have about 3-4 chapters of content building up to that, which would cover Rocket Town/Icicle Inn/Glacier/Whirlwind Maze like in the OG.

Act Two begins with the team in prison/breaking out and then we'll have Tifa as the party leader/dealing with Weapons/Huge Materia etc, through the midpoint of the game, when they find Cloud in Mideel and Tifa temporarily leaves the party to stay by his side. The End of Act Two is when the Weapon attacks Mideel and the two of them fall into the Lifestream.

Act Three begins with the Lifestream sequence and the emotional climax is Tifa helping Cloud find himself again there. Once Real!Cloud returns, we're gonna have a bunch of chapters of falling action, where the remaining subplots are resolved: the rest of the Huge Materia quests, the Wutai/Shinra war coming to a head, summoning Holy, return to Midgar, the night before the final battle, etc. This is where Cloud is going to resolve his feelings/delusions about Zack/Aerith, when they revisit Nibelheim and the Forgotten Capital, imo. Then, of course, the final battle with Sephiroth, and the denouement.

I don't think Cloud seeing Aerith at the end of Rebirth is such a big divergence from the OG to require such a radical change in structure? It is (like most changes in Remake/Rebirth) something that could have happened in the OG that they just didn't have the technology to show. The ending implies that he thinks Aerith is just back at the altar praying for Holy or whatever anyways, and he won't be seeing her around everywhere on the way to the Northern Crater. If anything, I think this delusion just serves to justify how Tifa ends up losing faith in him at the Northern Crater, since there's so much emphasis on Tifa's reaction to this in the ending.

There probably will be some sort of affection mechanism in the third game, but I don't think that has anything to do with shipping, lmao. Like it's just a very normal way to add some replay value to the game?

My baseline assumption for any prediction about part three is that they're going to try to make a "good" game. Even if they end up missing the mark, it wouldn't be like this. Like guys, it'll be fine, lol.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Raindrop: Welcome an' shit

@The Jairus questions: If I remember, the death threat thing was specifically motivated by the GS date giving her holy highness Jessiechrist's role of Princess Rosa to someone else But honestly, what didn't set him off? I'm remembering multiple rants about Sephiroth getting into Smash over Jessie, which was ... a thing. That happened.

@Ryu: I'm now picturing Cloud in Vegeta's armor explaining that Tifa is his motivation to grow stronger. It's sorta fucked... but then shipping Vegeta with Goku Kakarotto isn't uncommon is it

 

[Eerie]

Hey everyone!
Been lurking here for the past week or so after trying to find a place to discuss Rebirth that's not Twitter because omg there are some truly head-scratching and downright nasty takes on there. So, it's been super refreshing to see that there's really fruitful and substantive conversations about the story of this game here and I felt compelled to make an account and chime in myself now!

To fully disclose my bias, I caught the Cloti bug ever since I played the OG 10 years ago and it has lasted through Remake and now Rebirth. But, I didn't want to project my desire to see Cloud and Tifa together and be as objective as I could while playing through Rebirth the first time and see what Nojima was cooking. Although excerpts from the Ultimanias and what we know from OG basically already confirm their romance, I wanted to see how their relationship blossoms and builds from Remake and see what is actually written in the text of the game and not let anything sway my perspective. And there's one part of the game that just undeniably shows why Cloud and Tifa were written to be together and that's Chapter 9 in Gongaga.

Spoiler: Spoiler thoughts!

After Cloud almost kills Tifa at the reactor, it's important to look at how he reacts once he gains his mind back from Sephiroth. He screams her name and goes catatonic. In very much the same way that he reacts to Zack's death in OG and CC, he loses the person he depends on for his strength because he was too weak to protect them, and thus loses his will to go on. We see later after Tifa's Lifestream sequence that he has already accepted that he did kill her and needed a good slap in the face by Barrett to come back to his senses once the Weapon returns Tifa to them. It's as if he feels like he doesn't deserve to know that Tifa was actually alive. But there's so much hurt and desperation in Cloud that he needs to go check on Tifa's body. Even Barrett says that Tifa needs HIM. Then the game fast forwards a bit in time to Cissnei's house where we see Yuffie, Red, Cait Sith, and Barret mulling over what happened in the living room while Aerith waits near the door, curious about how Tifa is doing while Cloud watches over her.

But what I always come back to and what I don't see people talk about enough is this: how did we even get here? Why did the party decide to leave Tifa alone in a room with the person who literally almost killed her with no apparent argument or discussion? Regardless if Cloud made the decision to be alone with her or not, I argue the game placed them in these exact positions for a reason. I think the whole party knows Cloud is hurting inside and wants to make up for what he did. They trust that Tifa has the patience and forgiveness of a saint and that Cloud and Tifa will hash it out together. But, most importantly...

They are all aware of the depth of Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other. They know that they need their time alone.

And I wanna focus on Aerith at this point too because I disagree with the all the homewrecker accusations that have been thrown at her character on Twitter.

Firstly, Aerith and Tifa are really close FRIENDS, and I feel like people don't want to acknowledge that for some reason. Back on the Shinra-8, they literally were about talk about the boys they loved, or more accurately their "first loves" according to the French translation, before being interrupted by the crew. They're seen multiple times together doing their own thing outside of the rest of the party and have a whole section of the game dedicated to them (and Red) at Costa del Sol. And yet, even Aerith knows and agrees to defer to Cloud when it comes to Tifa at Gongaga.

Second, Aerith is a smart woman. She sees how Tifa instinctively goes to care for Cloud and how physically intimate and comfortable Cloud and Tifa are together. And, I don't think that Cloud and Tifa are quiet enough during the Gongaga scene that only Yuffie and Cait can hear them. I'm pretty sure Aerith can hear the whole conversation going on, and she knows exactly what's happening. To hear Tifa make a super intimate promise to Cloud that it's Tifa's turn to save him and remembering her talk with Tifa about their "first loves", I think she can put two and two together. And when Yuffie is cheering for the two lovebirds to kiss, Aerith doesn't even step in to stop anything. In fact, I think she's secretly rooting for them too. She can hear how tender and loving they are to each other because it's undeniable at that point. And when Tifa opens the door and looks at Aerith, you would expect some unease or awkwardness from her if you were to believe some CAs, but no that's not what happens! I think it's the French translation that subtitles the inaudible words to Tifa as "Everything will be alright." which is not what you expect if you believe Cloud and Aerith should be together.

So to put it all together, we basically have the worst kept secret between everyone in the party that Cloud and Tifa intimately rely on and are smitten for each other. Yuffie and Cait Sith make this very obvious in Gongaga, but I think even Aerith shows that she's acutely aware of the fact that Tifa is really the one that knows how to get to the real Cloud. And remember, this is a NON-OPTIONAL, CANON scene that makes it very clear that Cloud and Tifa love each other and that everyone knows it. This isn't even getting to the Under Junon scene, another non-optional scene where there is clear romantic tension, or the kiss on the Skywheel where the devs make it clear how Cloud would act if Tifa is his date at the Gold Saucer. And I didn't even really get into what Cloud and Tifa said to each other in Gongaga and it's already so obvious.

Hello and welcome!

Just to say, to be fair I am not sure that anyone but Cloud and Tifa heard what was said there. However, it is clear that the party already perceived by then that Cloud and Tifa are a thing - in KALM in ch2 everyone worries about them fighting, Barret, Red XIII, Aerith! In chapter 2! So I don't think they'd need to hear such an intimate conversation.

 

[Stiggie]

That would be terrible actually, players would never know the real Cloud. Big yikes. Also feeling like the party wouldn't get to know him either. That would sucks a lot. A big part of what's coming is what does the part do when Cloud's lost, so I feel that putting it towards the end is non-sense. We would miss A LOT.

I agree. I would like if everyone got to spend more time with real Cloud than less. It would also be funny to see fully real Cloud interacting with Tifa because he's already like her biggest simp, lol. The boy would thirst even worse than he already does, lol.

Not saying I support it, just saying that's my gut feeling. Remember, we barely got any time with normal Cloud in the OG as well. Ultimately FFVII follows the heroes journey archetype pretty closely and the "heroes rebirth" there is usually placed almost directly in front of the final confrontation. The hero must fail their first encounter with the big bad, which happens during the first north cave confrontation.
They must then undergo metamorphosis, they must undergo some internal growth that results in some insight or strength that will allow them to go back and face the trial again, but now succeed. That happens in the lifestream. From a storytelling perspective this should be what gives the hero the final strength needed to go and fight the big bad. If there is a lot happening between that and the final confrontation that usually isn't the greatest story structure, it would create the risk of the story starting to drag.

So if the lifestream is very early, then you might be forced to use something else to fill that role in the story, which would then almost have to be related to Aeriths death arc. And honestly, that I would like even less. The lifestream is one of the most prototypical versions of the transformation/atonement part of the heroes journey. It needs to be the culminating event that gives Cloud the final truth he needs to face Sephiroth, since it it what started this journey, and the guiding plotarc for his character growth. Hell, the fact that his resolution with Tifa IS "the metamorphosis" is from a story telling perspective probably the strongest evidence for why Tifa is the main love interest, because the relationship between her and Cloud forms what can easily be described as the most important part of the heroes journey, the final tribulation that grants the hero the inner strength he needs to achieve victory. If you take that away and instead give that role to some resolution concerning the death of Aerith then that could massively undermine Tifa.

Hahahaha

Just saw someone tweet Tifa saying “Cloud and I just grew up together. Nothing more” in Corneo’s basement as proof.

Holy hell.

These people have never actually understood the story. I have to question how they perceived everything in the game after Aerith’s death.

This is the problem with arguing against the Cleric worldview. It is excessively shallow. Usually you use Occams razor in these kinds of arguments, and it SHOULD work here since taking everything at face value is often NOT the simplest answer. But try explaining that to Cleriths. To intelligent people you don't have to explain this, they get it, they innately understand that just going by the letter is not simple but stupid, and that simplicity often requires not accepting that everything is literally true. But to stupid people, which are the people you're trying to convince, this immediately sounds like cope, you are immediately at a disadvantage. What's more you're trying to use a complex argument for why it's actually very simple to just go "she's being overly dismissive because that's what people do, ESPECIALLY if there is something more going on".

These are the sorts of things that you need to understand nuance for, that you need to be able to see context for. And people who are able to do that, are generally already NOT Cleriths, and if they are, these are not the arguments they're making.

I think if anything, the story is backloaded. I think it was a terrible mistake and probably the biggest mistake of Rebirth for it to end at the Forgotten Capital rather than the Northern Crater, because we still have two disks of the OG left!! There's so much to cover in part 3

I think the story in REMAKE is backloaded, yeah, but I think the reason so much was kept on the board is essentially so we can push back a lot of these events. Even in your timeline the LS is still pretty late, essentially the same thing I am saying, you have the Lifestream, and then have the different stories resolve. But I don't know if I think coming to Terms with Aeriths death really fits in there, I think it would have to be resolved already with the LS scene, with any sub-sequent scene merely being a send off in that regard. Cloud should not require healing post healing.
The lifestream starting act 3 is right, but that's only possible because they left a lot to do in game three, and act 3 out of 3....well, that's nearing the final parts of the story.

 

[Raindrop]

Hello and welcome!

Just to say, to be fair I am not sure that anyone but Cloud and Tifa heard what was said there. However, it is clear that the party already perceived by then that Cloud and Tifa are a thing - in KALM in ch2 everyone worries about them fighting, Barret, Red XIII, Aerith! In chapter 2! So I don't think they'd need to hear such an intimate conversation.

True, Kalm and Junon already established this dynamic too! I'd still argue that at least Yuffie and Cait were privy to the important parts of their conversation, at least the parts that made them think they were gonna kiss haha. I think Aerith has the emotional intelligence to get the gist of the situation too.

 

[GamerSkull]

True, Kalm and Junon already established this dynamic too! I'd still argue that at least Yuffie and Cait were privy to the important parts of their conversation, at least the parts that made them think they were gonna kiss haha. I think Aerith has the emotional intelligence to get the gist of the situation too.

The funniest part is that Yuffie and Cait are the newest members of the party. They’ve had less time to be aware of the group dynamics and they still quickly pick up on what’s happening.

 

[GamerSkull]

This is the problem with arguing against the Cleric worldview. It is excessively shallow. Usually you use Occams razor in these kinds of arguments, and it SHOULD work here since taking everything at face value is often NOT the simplest answer. But try explaining that to Cleriths. To intelligent people you don't have to explain this, they get it, they innately understand that just going by the letter is not simple but stupid, and that simplicity often requires not accepting that everything is literally true. But to stupid people, which are the people you're trying to convince, this immediately sounds like cope, you are immediately at a disadvantage. What's more you're trying to use a complex argument for why it's actually very simple to just go "she's being overly dismissive because that's what people do, ESPECIALLY if there is something more going on".

Honestly, I feel like they know they’ve already lost and all of this is just them trying for one last attempt. They’re like Bombs. They explode once they’ve been hit enough and are about to lose.

 

[KindOfBlue]

It’s a shame but also not a surprise some of the more vocal shippers don’t come here because the pattern seems to be “set up a false premise to an audience that already agrees with you, then plug your ears at people pointing out that false premise.”

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771273770361098293

The position that I’ve consistently noticed with some people is that “the romance is optional, but here’s why the devs actually intended for Cloud and Aerith to be the real romance of FF7”. The rest of that Twitter thread elaborates further, but I often see this presumption that Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is negligible and it sounds smart to shippers but unfortunately sometimes affects casual fans’ perceptions especially when coming from people with an online presence.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding of the roles that Cloud’s relationships with Aerith and Tifa play in his character arc. As I’ve said, shipping whoever you want will never be a problem to me. But I can’t take anybody seriously as a “fan” of FF7 if they're so blinded by shipper goggles that they seem to only ever pay attention when one girl is on-screen while turning their brains off for anything related to the other girl.

I was unaware of this debacle. What prompted this threat to happen?

I don’t want to assume it’s about Jessie’s death since that’s been set in stone since 1997.

I’m not proud of how I kept up with his online behavior after being banned from here, but I just knew that dude would cross the line at some point. Check this thread if you wanna see just how deep the rabbit hole went. (Unsurprisingly, he’s the one who started that thread in the first place.)

Perseverance (Jessie/Clessie Club)

Perseverance - A Cloud & Jessie Club https://www.deviantart.com/thestrifeisrife/art/Am-I-a-bad-person-Cloud-827032464?ga_submit_new=10%3A1579075798 "Cloud and Jessie inside the Sector 4 Plate" by Odysseus Jessie breaks down when the weight of what she's done through her bombs becomes too...

thelifestream.net

 

[GamerSkull]

Spoiler

 

[GamerSkull]

It’s a shame but also not a surprise some of the more vocal shippers don’t come here because the pattern seems to be “set up a false premise to an audience that already agrees with you, then plug your ears at people pointing out that false premise.”

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771273770361098293

The position that I’ve consistently noticed with some people is that “the romance is optional, but here’s why the devs actually intended for Cloud and Aerith to be the real romance of FF7”. The rest of that Twitter thread elaborates further, but I often see this presumption that Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is negligible and it sounds smart to shippers but unfortunately sometimes affects casual fans’ perceptions especially when coming from people with an online presence.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding of the roles that Cloud’s relationships with Aerith and Tifa play in his character arc. As I’ve said, shipping whoever you want will never be a problem to me. But I can’t take anybody seriously as a “fan” of FF7 if they're so blinded by shipper goggles that they seem to only ever pay attention when one girl in on-screen while turning their brains off for anything related to the other girl.



I’m not proud of how I kept up with his online behavior after being banned from here, but I just knew that dude would cross the line at some point. Check this thread if you wanna see just how deep the rabbit hole went. (Unsurprisingly, he’s the one who started that thread in the first place.)

Perseverance (Jessie/Clessie Club)

Perseverance - A Cloud & Jessie Club https://www.deviantart.com/thestrifeisrife/art/Am-I-a-bad-person-Cloud-827032464?ga_submit_new=10%3A1579075798 "Cloud and Jessie inside the Sector 4 Plate" by Odysseus Jessie breaks down when the weight of what she's done through her bombs becomes too...

thelifestream.net

Nobody is debating whether Aerith pursued Cloud, she totally did. Most CT fans don’t deny that.

 

[Stiggie]

It’s a shame but also not a surprise some of the more vocal shippers don’t come here because the pattern seems to be “set up a false premise to an audience that already agrees with you, then plug your ears at people pointing out that false premise.”

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771273770361098293

The position that I’ve consistently noticed with some people is that “the romance is optional, but here’s why the devs actually intended for Cloud and Aerith to be the real romance of FF7”. The rest of that Twitter thread elaborates further, but I often see this presumption that Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is negligible and it sounds smart to shippers but unfortunately sometimes affects casual fans’ perceptions especially when coming from people with an online presence.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding of the roles that Cloud’s relationships with Aerith and Tifa play in his character arc. As I’ve said, shipping whoever you want will never be a problem to me. But I can’t take anybody seriously as a “fan” of FF7 if they're so blinded by shipper goggles that they seem to only ever pay attention when one girl in on-screen while turning their brains off for anything related to the other girl.



I’m not proud of how I kept up with his online behavior after being banned from here, but I just knew that dude would cross the line at some point. Check this thread if you wanna see just how deep the rabbit hole went. (Unsurprisingly, he’s the one who started that thread in the first place.)

Perseverance (Jessie/Clessie Club)

Perseverance - A Cloud & Jessie Club https://www.deviantart.com/thestrifeisrife/art/Am-I-a-bad-person-Cloud-827032464?ga_submit_new=10%3A1579075798 "Cloud and Jessie inside the Sector 4 Plate" by Odysseus Jessie breaks down when the weight of what she's done through her bombs becomes too...

thelifestream.net

I gave one reply to this dude and he called me a bot and blocked me, people this insecure don't require attention or to be taken seriously.

 

[GamerSkull]

I gave one reply to this dude and he called me a bot and blocked me, people this insecure don't require attention or to be taken seriously.

What did you say?

Also, yeah… you know you’ve lost when you have to block someone providing an argument,

Typically, people who are confident they are correct don’t mind conversing within people they think are wrong... unless they are people who argue in bad faith.

 

[insanehobbit]

Not saying I support it, just saying that's my gut feeling. Remember, we barely got any time with normal Cloud in the OG as well. Ultimately FFVII follows the heroes journey archetype pretty closely and the "heroes rebirth" there is usually placed almost directly in front of the final confrontation. The hero must fail their first encounter with the big bad, which happens during the first north cave confrontation.
They must then undergo metamorphosis, they must undergo some internal growth that results in some insight or strength that will allow them to go back and face the trial again, but now succeed. That happens in the lifestream. From a storytelling perspective this should be what gives the hero the final strength needed to go and fight the big bad. If there is a lot happening between that and the final confrontation that usually isn't the greatest story structure, it would create the risk of the story starting to drag.

I think the story in REMAKE is backloaded, yeah, but I think the reason so much was kept on the board is essentially so we can push back a lot of these events. Even in your timeline the LS is still pretty late, essentially the same thing I am saying, you have the Lifestream, and then have the different stories resolve. But I don't know if I think coming to Terms with Aeriths death really fits in there, I think it would have to be resolved already with the LS scene, with any sub-sequent scene merely being a send off in that regard. Cloud should not require healing post healing.
The lifestream starting act 3 is right, but that's only possible because they left a lot to do in game three, and act 3 out of 3....well, that's nearing the final parts of the story.

I think that's fine for a story like FF7 because while Cloud's arc does follow the hero's journey, FF7 also has an ensemble cast. So even after Cloud and Tifa's arcs are mostly resolved after the Lifestream, we still have Cid/Yuffie/Vincent's stories to carry us through to the final confrontation. Same way with how Barret and Red's stories carried us through the parts of Rebirth that didn't progress Cloud's arc. There could be some pacing issues, sure, but this kind of structure is not that unusual for an ensemble story.

Plus it's just literally following the structure of the OG?

Zack was seemingly alive at the end of Remake...but then Rebirth pretty much just followed the structure of the OG. So I don't see why the ending of Rebirth would mean anything different for part 3? It's meant to build anxiety/anticipation (so I guess it's working!), but it's not actually going to change anything major.

The Lifestream solves Cloud's "big" problem, his identity crisis -- but it's not unusual for the characters to be "tested" after the climax, to prove that they've truly learned their lesson. (Or you could call it his "rededication to change," since I'm looking back at my screenwriting 101 notes lol). Obviously the final confrontation is Cloud's "big" test -- but seeing if he's actually able to come to terms with Zack and Aerith's deaths are "smaller" tests. Him not being able to accept Aerith's death is really not that big of a deal compared to the reason he's able to delude himself like this in the first place. It's an escalation, not the cause.

I imagine the return to Midgar will be expanded too (given how heavily the Wall Market NPCs are featured in Tifa's side quests), partially so that Tifa can tie up some loose ends in her own arc unrelated to Cloud, but that will also happen after the Lifestream.

 

[Stiggie]

What did you say?

Also, yeah… you know you’ve lost when you have to block someone providing an argument,

Typically, people who are confident they are correct don’t mind conversing within people they think are wrong... unless they are people who argue in bad faith.

The tweet was something along the lines of "why do clotis not realize that insert massive misunderstanding here" And I replied with something like "because unlike you our story comprehension skills didn't peak in grade school" or something to that effect.

 

[Someonesbunny]

Hey everyone!
Been lurking here for the past week or so after trying to find a place to discuss Rebirth that's not Twitter because omg there are some truly head-scratching and downright nasty takes on there. So, it's been super refreshing to see that there's really fruitful and substantive conversations about the story of this game here and I felt compelled to make an account and chime in myself now!

Welcome!

But what I always come back to and what I don't see people talk about enough is this: how did we even get here? Why did the party decide to leave Tifa alone in a room with the person who literally almost killed her with no apparent argument or discussion? Regardless if Cloud made the decision to be alone with her or not, I argue the game placed them in these exact positions for a reason. I think the whole party knows Cloud is hurting inside and wants to make up for what he did. They trust that Tifa has the patience and forgiveness of a saint and that Cloud and Tifa will hash it out together. But, most importantly...

They are all aware of the depth of Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other. They know that they need their time alone.

This I definitely agree with, but lean much more to the side of Tifa talking Cloud up or defending him to anyone who may want to have an opinion on him as evidenced by Barret's statement early on in Remake, telling Cloud to prove that he is "the man that Tifa says you [he] are" and that happens to just be one example within Avalanche alone. It is absolutely clear what she may be feeling for him, not necessarily sure if anyone else might understand what's going on with Cloud though.

And I wanna focus on Aerith at this point too because I disagree with the all the homewrecker accusations that have been thrown at her character on Twitter.

Firstly, Aerith and Tifa are really close FRIENDS, and I feel like people don't want to acknowledge that for some reason. Back on the Shinra-8, they literally were about talk about the boys they loved, or more accurately their "first loves" according to the French translation, before being interrupted by the crew. They're seen multiple times together doing their own thing outside of the rest of the party and have a whole section of the game dedicated to them (and Red) at Costa del Sol. And yet, even Aerith knows and agrees to defer to Cloud when it comes to Tifa at Gongaga.

Second, Aerith is a smart woman. She sees how Tifa instinctively goes to care for Cloud and how physically intimate and comfortable Cloud and Tifa are together. And, I don't think that Cloud and Tifa are quiet enough during the Gongaga scene that only Yuffie and Cait can hear them. I'm pretty sure Aerith can hear the whole conversation going on, and she knows exactly what's happening. To hear Tifa make a super intimate promise to Cloud that it's Tifa's turn to save him and remembering her talk with Tifa about their "first loves", I think she can put two and two together. And when Yuffie is cheering for the two lovebirds to kiss, Aerith doesn't even step in to stop anything. In fact, I think she's secretly rooting for them too. She can hear how tender and loving they are to each other because it's undeniable at that point. And when Tifa opens the door and looks at Aerith, you would expect some unease or awkwardness from her if you were to believe some CAs, but no that's not what happens! I think it's the French translation that subtitles the inaudible words to Tifa as "Everything will be alright." which is not what you expect if you believe Cloud and Aerith should be together.

So to put it all together, we basically have the worst kept secret between everyone in the party that Cloud and Tifa intimately rely on and are smitten for each other. Yuffie and Cait Sith make this very obvious in Gongaga, but I think even Aerith shows that she's acutely aware of the fact that Tifa is really the one that knows how to get to the real Cloud. And remember, this is a NON-OPTIONAL, CANON scene that makes it very clear that Cloud and Tifa love each other and that everyone knows it. This isn't even getting to the Under Junon scene, another non-optional scene where there is clear romantic tension, or the kiss on the Skywheel where the devs make it clear how Cloud would act if Tifa is his date at the Gold Saucer. And I didn't even really get into what Cloud and Tifa said to each other in Gongaga and it's already so obvious.[/SPOILER]

What I will say about this, however, is that while I think "homewrecker" is definitely a bit much (and also by technicality since Cloud and Tifa aren't quite together yet), her sloppy characterization has sometimes suggested otherwise, whether intentionally or not. Part of this probably comes from the confusion created by formerly being the Aerith-that-can-speak-to-the-Lifestream and becoming the Aerith-that-forgot-what-she-was-last-game-and-other-important-details. Her insistence on "dates" and the way the game constantly puts you on another "date" with her doesn't help either and feels like her interest in Cloud often overtakes her more interesting features, but this is most egregious when compounded with the fact that it is not a great leap to interpret her actions with Cloud as using him to suss out her own feelings about her own past tragedy, and dealing with someone else's issues is probably the last thing he needs given that the team sees him slowly losing his mind.

 

[GamerSkull]

The tweet was something along the lines of "why do clotis not realize that insert massive misunderstanding here" And I replied with something like "because unlike you our story comprehension skills didn't peak in grade school" or something to that effect.

Well, I don’t know. I honestly can respect if they prefer Aerith. I just don’t quite understand how they must have perceived the story after the Forgotten Capital.

 

[Stiggie]

I think that's fine for a story like FF7 because while Cloud's arc does follow the hero's journey, FF7 also has an ensemble cast. So even after Cloud and Tifa's arcs are mostly resolved after the Lifestream, we still have Cid/Yuffie/Vincent's stories to carry us through to the final confrontation. Same way with how Barret and Red's stories carried us through the parts of Rebirth that didn't progress Cloud's arc. There could be some pacing issues, sure, but this kind of structure is not that unusual for an ensemble story.

Plus it's just literally following the structure of the OG?

Zack was seemingly alive at the end of Remake...but then Rebirth pretty much just followed the structure of the OG. So I don't see why the ending of Rebirth would mean anything different for part 3? It's meant to build anxiety/anticipation (so I guess it's working!), but it's not actually going to change anything major.

The Lifestream solves Cloud's "big" problem, his identity crisis -- but it's not unusual for the characters to be "tested" after the climax, to prove that they've truly learned their lesson. (Or you could call it his "rededication to change," since I'm looking back at my screenwriting 101 notes lol). Obviously the final confrontation is Cloud's "big" test -- but seeing if he's actually able to come to terms with Zack and Aerith's deaths are "smaller" tests. Him not being able to accept Aerith's death is really not that big of a deal compared to the reason he's able to delude himself like this in the first place. It's an escalation, not the cause.

I imagine the return to Midgar will be expanded too (given how heavily the Wall Market NPCs are featured in Tifa's side quests), partially so that Tifa can tie up some loose ends in her own arc unrelated to Cloud, but that will also happen after the Lifestream.

I don't deny that it's possible, it's just that my instinct tells me that doing a bunch of quests for other characters wouldn't work well after the games main revelation/atonement segment, which really has to be the LS for the game to work I think. After that the main thing left should be to wrap things up. Honestly, I'd even say that it was a mistake of the original to put the Huge materia quest, which results in failure, AFTER the lifestream sequence, I think it would fit better prior to it. In an ideal story structure, when Cloud and co are on the highwind post lifestream with the upbeat music and the hopeful feeling of comradery, we'd have everyones story at such a point that they're ready to move towards resolution. They all have to have come to terms with the past, addressed, their faults, etc, and become the most ideal versions of themselves, needed to face their respective final challenges. Barret should accept he's not a leader and fully understand the wrongness of his actions. Cid should have already been to space or at least ended his grudge, etc. And I think a lot of those things, those realizations, could probably happen best while Cloud is gone, since that forces a perspective shift, it also makes Clouds return narratively feel like a reward for everyone managing to achieve their ideal selves. It would create the ultimate turn around moment where we're finally out of the worst of it and coming out stronger.

The main resolutions should be shinra and Sephiroth, Shinra in Midgar, Sephiroth in NC. And through those segments you can resolve the stories for the individual characters.

Clouds mental health especially shouldn't have another mini-arc post LS. There are two ways this could technically be done. One is a separate arc about Cloud accepting that Aerith is dead, or it could be woven into the LS. But I fundamentally think that Cloud should absolutely not come out of the LS segment while still thinking Aerith is alive, nor not being ready to accept that. The negative realization of her death should come before the break. If we're looking at the 5 stages of grief he's in Denial now, and he should go through anger, bargaining, and depression before exiting the LS in "acceptance". Post LS should only be the positive realization, aka, acceptance.

 

[Graymouse]

Hey everyone!
Been lurking here for the past week or so after trying to find a place to discuss Rebirth that's not Twitter because omg there are some truly head-scratching and downright nasty takes on there. So, it's been super refreshing to see that there's really fruitful and substantive conversations about the story of this game here and I felt compelled to make an account and chime in myself now!

To fully disclose my bias, I caught the Cloti bug ever since I played the OG 10 years ago and it has lasted through Remake and now Rebirth. But, I didn't want to project my desire to see Cloud and Tifa together and be as objective as I could while playing through Rebirth the first time and see what Nojima was cooking. Although excerpts from the Ultimanias and what we know from OG basically already confirm their romance, I wanted to see how their relationship blossoms and builds from Remake and see what is actually written in the text of the game and not let anything sway my perspective. And there's one part of the game that just undeniably shows why Cloud and Tifa were written to be together and that's Chapter 9 in Gongaga.

Spoiler: Spoiler thoughts!

After Cloud almost kills Tifa at the reactor, it's important to look at how he reacts once he gains his mind back from Sephiroth. He screams her name and goes catatonic. In very much the same way that he reacts to Zack's death in OG and CC, he loses the person he depends on for his strength because he was too weak to protect them, and thus loses his will to go on. We see later after Tifa's Lifestream sequence that he has already accepted that he did kill her and needed a good slap in the face by Barrett to come back to his senses once the Weapon returns Tifa to them. It's as if he feels like he doesn't deserve to know that Tifa was actually alive. But there's so much hurt and desperation in Cloud that he needs to go check on Tifa's body. Even Barrett says that Tifa needs HIM. Then the game fast forwards a bit in time to Cissnei's house where we see Yuffie, Red, Cait Sith, and Barret mulling over what happened in the living room while Aerith waits near the door, curious about how Tifa is doing while Cloud watches over her.

But what I always come back to and what I don't see people talk about enough is this: how did we even get here? Why did the party decide to leave Tifa alone in a room with the person who literally almost killed her with no apparent argument or discussion? Regardless if Cloud made the decision to be alone with her or not, I argue the game placed them in these exact positions for a reason. I think the whole party knows Cloud is hurting inside and wants to make up for what he did. They trust that Tifa has the patience and forgiveness of a saint and that Cloud and Tifa will hash it out together. But, most importantly...

They are all aware of the depth of Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other. They know that they need their time alone.

And I wanna focus on Aerith at this point too because I disagree with the all the homewrecker accusations that have been thrown at her character on Twitter.

Firstly, Aerith and Tifa are really close FRIENDS, and I feel like people don't want to acknowledge that for some reason. Back on the Shinra-8, they literally were about talk about the boys they loved, or more accurately their "first loves" according to the French translation, before being interrupted by the crew. They're seen multiple times together doing their own thing outside of the rest of the party and have a whole section of the game dedicated to them (and Red) at Costa del Sol. And yet, even Aerith knows and agrees to defer to Cloud when it comes to Tifa at Gongaga.

Second, Aerith is a smart woman. She sees how Tifa instinctively goes to care for Cloud and how physically intimate and comfortable Cloud and Tifa are together. And, I don't think that Cloud and Tifa are quiet enough during the Gongaga scene that only Yuffie and Cait can hear them. I'm pretty sure Aerith can hear the whole conversation going on, and she knows exactly what's happening. To hear Tifa make a super intimate promise to Cloud that it's Tifa's turn to save him and remembering her talk with Tifa about their "first loves", I think she can put two and two together. And when Yuffie is cheering for the two lovebirds to kiss, Aerith doesn't even step in to stop anything. In fact, I think she's secretly rooting for them too. She can hear how tender and loving they are to each other because it's undeniable at that point. And when Tifa opens the door and looks at Aerith, you would expect some unease or awkwardness from her if you were to believe some CAs, but no that's not what happens! I think it's the French translation that subtitles the inaudible words to Tifa as "Everything will be alright." which is not what you expect if you believe Cloud and Aerith should be together.

So to put it all together, we basically have the worst kept secret between everyone in the party that Cloud and Tifa intimately rely on and are smitten for each other. Yuffie and Cait Sith make this very obvious in Gongaga, but I think even Aerith shows that she's acutely aware of the fact that Tifa is really the one that knows how to get to the real Cloud. And remember, this is a NON-OPTIONAL, CANON scene that makes it very clear that Cloud and Tifa love each other and that everyone knows it. This isn't even getting to the Under Junon scene, another non-optional scene where there is clear romantic tension, or the kiss on the Skywheel where the devs make it clear how Cloud would act if Tifa is his date at the Gold Saucer. And I didn't even really get into what Cloud and Tifa said to each other in Gongaga and it's already so obvious.

Welcome! This community is one of the best on the internets!

 

[billy22]

I gave one reply to this dude and he called me a bot and blocked me, people this insecure don't require attention or to be taken seriously.

When he said he wanted to hear thoughts, he was actually talking about thoughts from his echo chamber, not from you sir.

 

[Graymouse]

So this is supposed to be the ultimate end all arguments proofs that Cloud and Aerith is canon :

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771030628626288823

Whatever you do don't look further down the thread.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771050653932015683

So apparently by this one, Cloud and Aerith appear on the same page so they are the Canon couple. I think this is a new one? maybe?

 

[liuliuliu]

well you could argue that Cloud and Tifa are facing each other, and they are in the center…

But anyways I don’t feel the need to argue with them, and I hope they will have fun watching LS and HW in pt3.
Also there might be bunch of Zerith in next part as well.
Guess the game will be 30% shorter for them cause they need to skip all those scenes.

 

[Fakewings_]

In Gongaga, I don't think the whole party is aware of what happened. The other members probably only know about Tifa's fall. And Tifa, of course, to protect Cloud, won't tell anyone about it.

If the members knew Cloud attacked Tifa, naturally Aerith, who takes care of Tifa, would be there instead of a chaotic Cloud.

So I lean towards the other direction. Let's analyze a bit further: Why is Cloud alone in the room? One detail clearly shows the party’s awareness of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa: Tifa is very important to Cloud, and they need privacy. No one interferes/should interfere.
You could say even friends need privacy. True, if it’s not in the case where Yuffie and Cait Sith didn't whisper "Kiss, Kiss,". it's evident to the members that it's not just a purely platonic relationship.

And throughout Rebirth, we don't see Cloud and Aerith having private space that needs to be respected, as an obvious thing in front of all the other members. Everything they have happens around the quests and in dreams.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Whatever you do don't look further down the thread.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771050653932015683

So apparently by this one, Cloud and Aerith appear on the same page so they are the Canon couple. I think this is a new one? maybe?

And yet when you finish the book and set it down, Tifa is on top of Cloud. Advantage: Cloti

 

[Graymouse]

In Gongaga, I don't think the whole party is aware of what happened. The other members probably only know about Tifa's fall. And Tifa, of course, to protect Cloud, won't tell anyone about it.

If the members knew Cloud attacked Tifa, naturally Aerith, who takes care of Tifa, would be there instead of a chaotic Cloud.

So I lean towards the other direction. Let's analyze a bit further: Why is Cloud alone in the room? One detail clearly shows the party’s awareness of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa: Tifa is very important to Cloud, and they need privacy. No one interferes/should interfere.
You could say even friends need privacy. True, if it’s not in the case where Yuffie and Cait Sith didn't whisper "Kiss, Kiss,". it's evident to the members that it's not just a purely platonic relationship.

And throughout Rebirth, we don't see Cloud and Aerith having private space that needs to be respected, as an obvious thing in front of all the other members. Everything they have happens around the quests and in dreams.

I touched on this in a previous post earlier is this massive thread. I would really love to know what Aerith says to Tifa, after Aerith was peeking through the open door because whatever it was it made Tifa blush.

I would like to think it was "you go girl!" but that is just me and my imagination.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771145790624240067

This person truly thinks that they got an Final Fantasy 30th Anniversary Ultimania when all it is, just a pamphlet that was given out during the 30th Anniversary Exhibition a few years back. As far as this person is concerned, This is proof of official FF couples. (spoilers No TIfa)

"the Clerith mind virus is real"

 

[shady]

This was after the Game Awards trailer, the one that heavily baited Clerith, with the almost kiss moment from their date, and the No Promises to Keep song debut.

A lot of very extreme Cloti’s didn’t respond well not only to all of the above, but to the fact that at this point Tifa had barely been in any of the marketing (according to them, completely forgetting a lot of the marketing prior to TGA trailer played up Sephiroth trying to drive a wedge between Cloud and Tifa, and the simple fact that they chose to keep a lot of Tifa’s stuff under wraps for the game itself)

Anyway, these extreme Cloti’s expressed their anger at Nojima, and one Japanese Cloti (NOT Jairus) threatened to kill Nojima, and a lot of the well known Aerith hating extreme Cloti’s liked those tweets with the threats against Nojima.

This instance had nothing to do with Jairus.

This was what also led to the response of “Thank You Developers of FFVII” viral thing on Twitter where people tweeted the hashtag thanking the developers of FFVII, to try and wash away the negativity and toxicity that arose from TGA trailer.

View attachment 15090View attachment 15091

Man these people are ridiculous. I feel sorry for the developers. I don't care who you ship, you shouldn't be doing things like this, it's really not that deep. It gets to the point that don't they even realise doing stupid shit like this could even cause them to think twice in the future about actually doing the things you want? What incentive does Nojima have to push through a Cloud and Tifa finale if Tifa fans are attacking him like this? People don't use their brains at all