SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LunarTarotGirl]

I never really considered it like a true LTD to be honest. Aerith/Cloud "love story" is only made of "What if". In 1997 (let's say when Zack wasn't really a thing to make it simple) sure Cloud could develop romantic feelings but the chick dies. They knew each other for 2 weeks. We knew from the LS segment that Tifa was the one that started it all. She was the one that made Cloud take on his journey. I don't know at what moment in time a "What if" ship became the big CANON soulmate thing we can read today. It's okay if you wanna see Cloud with Aerith. Good for you. But it was never a thing to begin with.

I'm so sorry if I sound harsh and like an asshole. It's been 25 years now and I feel like a fool who hasn't played the same game as everyone else.

Here is the thing. You don't need any love story between anyone to have a triangle. You just need three people with at least two having interest or romantic feelings in the other.


You can have

A and B like C that's a triangle

A likes B secretly but B likes C secretly that's also a triangle.

Strange but also a triangle A hates B but B likes C and C likes A. That is weird but still a triangle by definition.

And I think that's the problem. People assume a triangle means everyone in the triangle feels the same way. When that's not at all what it means it's literally just a dynamic set up for literary purposes.

You can argue because of Zack after 1997 gaining a bigger role we now have a square. Still, it started w triangle dynamics.

 

[Yoru]

Maybe it can be viewed this way:

It has romance in the first half.

It has romance in the second half.

Both involve the same man but a different woman. And the other woman is mostly absent or not much involved.

Still a love triangle? (Just the OG)

The set up is a love triangle. Yeah totally. I was more talking about the fact people have been at each other's throats for nearly 30 years, even though the canon is pretty clear imo. Again, people can have their preferences.

I'm obviously exaggerating, but it's like if people were saying that Quistis in FF8 is Squall's true soulmate (yes I know that's not the same thing at all, It's just to give an idea). It just doesn't work.

You can't put on the same level an established couple with a fantasy.

(now you can hate me)

 

[GamerSkull]

The set up is a love triangle. Yeah totally. I was more talking about the fact people have been at each other's throats for nearly 30 years, even though the canon is pretty clear imo. Again, people can have their preferences.

I'm obviously exaggerating, but it's like if people were saying that Quistis in FF8 is Squall's true soulmate (yes I know that's not the same thing at all, It's just to give an idea). It just doesn't work.

You can't put on the same level an established couple with a fantasy.

(now you can hate me)

I think the problem here is that Aerith dies and so some fans will always have the impression that had she lived, Cloud may have chosen Aerith over Tifa. Essentially, that as things stand now, Tifa is just Cloud’s second choice.

Yes, this interpretation makes Cloud seem like an ass.

No, I do not believe for a second he’d choose Aerith over Tifa considering what we learn about him.

But this is the interpretation of some fans. And I do think it’s an issue with the fans in this case. I think there is enough in the OG that Square definitely made clear enough.
As far as the original release goes, they are in the clear. But I do agree somewhat they they should have nipped it in the bud around Advent Children so to speak. It’s great that it seems they are committing now but they should have done so much earlier.

Preferring Clerith is all well and good but… I just don’t think the OG story really reflects that, regardless of any of the marketing material. (Which again, are the way they are as to not spoil the story and provide Aerith as a bit of a red herring romance).

 

[Yoru]

I think the problem here is that Aerith dies and so some fans will always have the impression that had she lived, Cloud may have chosen Aerith over Tifa. Essentially, that as things stand now, Tifa is just Cloud’s second choice.

Yes, this interpretation makes Cloud seem like an ass.

No, I do not believe for a second he’d choose Aerith over Tifa considering what we learn about him.

That's why I was talking about a "What if" love story. Sure you can have it.

But when i'm reading things like "Yup confirmed, Aerith is coming back part 3, we get the kiss and she saves Cloud broken mind in the LS"

I'm like "WTF ? Have you ever passed CD1 ? It's not what this story is about. Ever. And I'm saying this for the damn 1997 game. And now we have a whole compilation that make even less sense to think Cloud and Aerith is a real thing, that it is how things should have been. It's just wrong.

 

[GamerSkull]

But when i'm reading things like "Yup confirmed, Aerith is coming back part 3, we get the kiss and she saves Cloud broken mind in the LS"

That’s just cope.

LS is Tifa’s moment. And let’s be honest, any fan wanting Aerith to have this moment instead has indirectly admitted that the LS scene has important romantic undertones, and they’ve indirectly admitted that the OG scene is pro-Cloti and not platonic. Which is why they want Aerith to have it instead.

And once again, it just doesn’t make sense since a whole bunch of it consists of Cloud’s childhood memories which Aerith was not present for. And the point is to prove that he is the Cloud Tifa remembers. How can Aerith remember the real Cloud if she never knew him at that time?

 

[Stiggie]

I wonder if people just haven't seen the "the person who dies in part 2 isn't coming back" statement, or if they just ignore it.

 

[GamerSkull]

I wonder if people just haven't seen the "the person who dies in part 2 isn't coming back" statement, or if they just ignore it.

Well, if anything, all of this discourse has made me realize that a huge swath of people block out everything that happens after Disc 1.

Also, I haven’t seen that statement either. Who said it?

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

The set up is a love triangle. Yeah totally. I was more talking about the fact people have been at each other's throats for nearly 30 years, even though the canon is pretty clear imo. Again, people can have their preferences.

I'm obviously exaggerating, but it's like if people were saying that Quistis in FF8 is Squall's true soulmate (yes I know that's not the same thing at all, It's just to give an idea). It just doesn't work.

You can't put on the same level an established couple with a fantasy.

(now you can hate me)

The debate exists because in 1997 the game was very barebones in the explaining things department. I love OG but it really glossed over quite a lot that now we are seeing in depth. Even what the Promised Land was and Sephiroth's history and goals was misinterpreted for years. Also the devs had us play as a character who we could choose dialogue for, giving many people the impression the character represented them and their preferences. And honestly looking back until the LS scene there is really nothing stopping this interpretation.
Also again if people paid special attention to one girl they weren't gonna see scenes with the other one.
And then they locked quite a lot behind optional scenes. Stuff like who Zack even was wasn't even in the original game and in the game it was in barely anyone was thinking to go to Shinra manor basement to unlock the secret cutscene. On top of this not just marketting but the game gave you a pink magical girl who pretty music plays for whenever you talk to her and made it seem like there could be something there before brutally killing her. People got attached and so this includes feeling like their own feelings should be reflected in Cloud.

In short OG was amazing but it wasn't very clear cut on many things. And over the years more information was added but can we agree in the most messy way possible? We had Last Order which wasn't even canon according to SE. We had Ultimania's not translated for years. CC was on a handheld a lot of people didn't have. AC has two versions which you needed to read novels for that weren't translated till years later either..... In general there was so much room for confusion and misunderstandings to spread. Also lots of time for it to spread. But I think in general the devs are definitely trying with ReTrilogy. It's just people who made up their minds did so a long time ago.

But for the new fans and casual players I think in general the devs have made it clear to newcomers what their intention is.

I understand the frustration of course but very few people are arguing than we think.

 

[Stiggie]

Well, if anything, all of this discourse has made me realize that a huge swath of people block out everything that happens after Disc 1.

Also, I haven’t seen that statement either. Who said it?

Nomura apparently, from game informer a few months back

 

[thetriplerhyme]

btw sharin this look~ I would have loved to see this scene in Rebirth though ~ any Aerti fans there?

 

[GamerSkull]

Nomura apparently, from game informer a few months back View attachment 15171

I think they’d argue he’s talking about the OG only.

But yeah, I think if Aerith comes back it’s only gonna be in the same capacity as Zack. Small interludes. And I don’t think she’s gonna interact with the main party much.

 

[Stiggie]

I think they’d argue he’s talking about the OG only.

He specifically mentions "this title" in an interview about rebirth, and that she won't return just like in the OG. We didn't know who the person dying was gonna be per se, but we do now.

 

[Yoru]

View attachment 15170

btw sharin this look~ I would have loved to see this scene in Rebirth though ~ any Aerti fans there?

Bro I wanted more ! Aerti is a blessing. Give me Jedi Force Ghost Aerith helping her girlfriend in part 3 when shit goes hard.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Also while I didn't for one second believe Aerith was going to survive Rebirth. I can't tell anyone with a straight face that the devs didn't 100% think people would jump to the conclusion she would survive and used that as part of the mystery for Rebirth. Which was something I honestly hated.

Because again we are technically super fans. I can quote to you what line is on what Ultimania page or the date of X interview for example. To an extentmost people in the LTD are well informed. But any casual or new players aren't going to know about interviews or novels and so the chance is high that if they hear theories saying stuff like Aerith will survive this time and Cloud's gonna save her or etc they'll believe it.

And I don't really blame them for that. It's just the way information about this franchise is not really equally accessed. It's a lot of information and in different media. Mostly people just see trailers and commercials.

And this happened a lot over the last 27 years in different ways. In general though I think Rebirth is slowly fixing this problem. But not 100% yet honestly.

 

[GamerSkull]

He specifically mentions "this title" in an interview about rebirth, and that she won't return just like in the OG. We didn't know who the person dying was gonna be per se, but we do now.

I still think they’d argue it’s more about the OG. Because the wording seems off. (To me as well)

Hope springs eternal.

They’d want to hold on to hope regardless of any supporting evidence. Which is… as we know, something some of them do with the LTD in general.

 

[Yoru]

Also while I didn't for one second believe Aerith was going to survive Rebirth. I can't tell anyone with a straight face that the devs didn't 100% think people would jump to the conclusion she would survive and used that as part of the mystery for Rebirth. Which was something I honestly hated.

Worst marketing period of this franchise. I hated it so much. It was already gross doing it. But it was even worse riding this wave like hell in every fucking itw.

 

[Stiggie]

Also while I didn't for one second believe Aerith was going to survive Rebirth. I can't tell anyone with a straight face that the devs didn't 100% think people would jump to the conclusion she would survive and used that as part of the mystery for Rebirth. Which was something I honestly hated.

Because again we are technically super fans. I can quote to you what line is on what Ultimania page or the date of X interview for example. To an extentmost people in the LTD are well informed. But any casual or new players aren't going to know about interviews or novels and so the chance is high that if they hear theories saying stuff like Aerith will survive this time and Cloud's gonna save her or etc they'll believe it.

And I don't really blame them for that. It's just the way information about this franchise is not really equally accessed. It's a lot of information and in different media. Mostly people just see trailers and commercials.

And this happened a lot over the last 27 years in different ways. In general though I think Rebirth is slowly fixing this problem. But not 100% yet honestly.

I would like to think rebirth is fixing it, but while I find that some characters interactions are made super explicit, I.e. Cloud and tifa kissing. This is also the most vague and convoluted ffvii has ever been. Couldn't get much clearer in the og than "aerith is dead, rip". But now we have weird multiple timelines or lifestream universes and zack fighting alongside Cloud and plane jumping and aerith singing nonsensical love songs.

Don't know if you can really call that clearing up confusion, so far at least. If I had to grade ffvii rebirth on how wel it tells the story of the og I'd give it a 0. It does good stuff with characterizations, mechanics, and world building. But man.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Also while I didn't for one second believe Aerith was going to survive Rebirth. I can't tell anyone with a straight face that the devs didn't 100% think people would jump to the conclusion she would survive and used that as part of the mystery for Rebirth. Which was something I honestly hated.

- I honestly wanna say the same thing but when intergrade was released I deferred ( dont hate me hahaha) cuz Zack survive there!!! at least I though he did soo I wanna have a good ending or should I say 'alive' for #Zerith

 

[Yoru]

- I honestly wanna say the same thing but when intergrade was released I deferred ( dont hate me hahaha) cuz Zack survive there!!! at least I though he did soo I wanna have a good ending or should I say 'alive' for #Zerith

All I want with all this timelines "shit" is just that Aerith know Zack loved her. Always have. She was his only one. And he tried everything he could to come back to her. Just let them talk.

 

[CldS7]

I would like to think rebirth is fixing it, but while I find that some characters interactions are made super explicit, I.e. Cloud and tifa kissing. This is also the most vague and convoluted ffvii has ever been. Couldn't get much clearer in the og than "aerith is dead, rip". But now we have weird multiple timelines or lifestream universes and zack fighting alongside Cloud and plane jumping and aerith singing nonsensical love songs.

Don't know if you can really call that clearing up confusion, so far at least. If I had to grade ffvii rebirth on how wel it tells the story of the og I'd give it a 0. It does good stuff with characterizations, mechanics, and world building. But man.

the more I think about this game, the more I absolutely cant stand some of the decisions. It's such a convoluted mess which has ruined and made half the original scenes and themes worse because of it.

But then also on the other hand made Cloud and Tifas relationship feel and grow so much nicer at the stage of the game we are in rn

but idk if the upside of that is equal to the amount of pure nauseating nonsense in the game. The tone deafness of certain moments....palmer im looking at you....

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I would like to think rebirth is fixing it, but while I find that some characters interactions are made super explicit, I.e. Cloud and tifa kissing. This is also the most vague and convoluted ffvii has ever been. Couldn't get much clearer in the og than "aerith is dead, rip". But now we have weird multiple timelines or lifestream universes and zack fighting alongside Cloud and plane jumping and aerith singing nonsensical love songs.

Don't know if you can really call that clearing up confusion, so far at least. If I had to grade ffvii rebirth on how wel it tells the story of the og I'd give it a 0. It does good stuff with characterizations, mechanics, and world building. But man.

Oh I 100% agree that the execution is weird.

I also have talked about before how this game 100% does let them have their cake and eat it too thing where they let CAs get their moments in our own little route where most will obviously going to pick Aerith and nothing is stopping us as seeing it as romantic should we choose to. So I can't blame the newer fans either in that department honestly.
And I hate it lol. Because yes I'm CA but I know they aren't gonna make good on what they're teasing me with. I know Aerith is staying dead no matter how much they make it a mystery and I know they're setting up Zack and Aerith reunion and CT Lifestream scene.
As much as it might sound like it to say, I'm not speaking "against" CA because I wouldn't want to see it sail. I'm just saying exactly as I see it coming.
They gave us stuff to keep us happy but I would rather not be lead on to be let down later personally. And I don't like how it's still fueling the debate.

Also the marketting...

That is why I said not yet. But what I think they're doing better is putting all the information even as crazy as the narrative looks in one place in Rebirth so people will understand the narrative easier than OG. People don't really need to read the interviews or Traces Of Two Pasts because Rebirth straight up addresses them.

The love song is literally just her monologue which is another super important thing they included in a museum exhibit of all things. Because it literally summarizes her POV and feelings. Why this is not more visible Frustrates me. So I'm actually glad it's there. Promises to Keep "we won't ever need" that line is based on the promise Zack made her I think, the last conversation they had. She won't need a promise to meet again with Cloud (and in meta the party, the player as her farewell) because she hopes to actually meet him again. So there doesn't need to be any promise just that hope it will absolutely happen.. It's also dialogue in Loveless the play. And it sounds like her knock out line in battle "We'll meet again, I know it." Basically.

But I don't think it fixes everything of course, and not yet because... yes it's also very convoluted. The execution is not the best at certain parts and terrible in others.
Like I still don't understand certain parts but I hope we actually get a translated Ultimania that does explain things this time!

 

[alohana]

That's not how the story starts out. The fact either Cloud or even Tifa are interested in eachother is a complete secret in OG until the LS scene. It's part of a plot twist and a spoiler revealed later. OG was set up as a triangle. In fact during 1997 love triangles were popular because of the success of Evangelion and other shows like I said Kimagure Orange Road. We the players were supposed to have no idea about Cloud or Tifa's feelings in OG. All we were supposed to know was the fact two girls like one guy. That's the triangle and that's why there is a debate. Cloud and Tifa don't get together till the end of the game so story wise that's also supposed to be something we arent supposed to know in Rebirth.

But of course we would. We are fans and part of the LTD. But casual fans are slowly supposed to realize this over time. They're not introduced as a couple they're both single and introduced as friends. This isn't two partners together from the story perspective. It evolves over time sure, but it's supposed to be a reveal. And the dynamic is still set up as a triangle because both girls have feelings for one guy. I know maybe people don't like that but that is exactly how it's set up.

With Zack past 1997 it's a square. Love triangle doesnt mean the guy has feelings. It's the set up. It's just a literary set up and people read into it they assume feelings need to be involved for there to be a triangle. But you can 100% have unrequited love and still have a triangle bc it's just a literary device.

Nah, Tifa totally is in love with Cloud from the start. She's an absolute sweetheart, but she doesn't choose to watch over a mind wrecked Cloud because he's just a friend

We just don't know Cloud's feelings til the end (although the player can flirt all they want with her up til the date)

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Nah, Tifa totally is in love with Cloud from the start. She's an absolute sweetheart, but she doesn't choose to watch over a mind wrecked Cloud because he's just a friend

We just don't know Cloud's feelings til the end (although the player can flirt all they want with her up til the date)

Yeah but what I mean that the extent of the relationship how deep it goes is supposed to be a secret and plot reveal. The story starts off as these two are childhood friends. We can see Tifa has interest in Cloud by Mideel, of course. But the extent of these feelings etc. That's part of a reveal down the line. And a very powerful one when we do get to it.

But what I mean is you are supposed to realize that as you play over time. The story doesn't just give you all that information from the jump. We figure it out.

So to be clearer I was pointing out that we aren't told the nature to the interest when we meet Tifa. We get hints like oh this girl likes Cloud. And it's over the course of the game that we piece together what that means. And that's all part of a very important plot reveal that is kept secret till later.
(Also this is only really me talking about OG and the set up of dynamics from a literary perspective. I'm not saying oh in OG we don't see Tifa loves Cloud till the LS. Of course we do. But the way the dynamic is set up as something we need to slowly figure out and it's not in the forefront in a way it's even hidden for a bit.
Rebirth it's more obvious and set up as a slown burn that we see pretty early considering this is technically still Disk 1)

 

[LNK]

ever since Red Dead 2 every game has to include songs now ffs

Final Fantasy has been doing that since at least 6 though

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

- I honestly wanna say the same thing but when intergrade was released I deferred ( dont hate me hahaha) cuz Zack survive there!!! at least I though he did soo I wanna have a good ending or should I say 'alive' for #Zerith

Honestly I don't blame you. They really set up this hope for fans and I'm not against Zerith at all. So if they do go that route I really don't think I would be mad.

What made me angry is I saw it as they were giving hope for something that they probably would never fullfill. (And based on Rebirth so far still looks like Aerith is staying dead. And Zack.)