SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LNK]

I think Aerith is meant to feel off on purpose which is why Cloud says why are you being weird. Its 100 percent not the same Aerith we played with. The green visions show this

See I think it's still the same Aerith, it's just she is preparing for her visit to the upper room.

 

[LNK]

I wonder if people just haven't seen the "the person who dies in part 2 isn't coming back" statement, or if they just ignore it.

There's people who are still convinced the trilogy is a sequel, so I wouldn't be surprised if people ignored that statement. Or just downright don't believe anything the devs say

 

[Ryushikaze]

@Ryushikaze
Yeah I know of the different types of triangles. I actually pictured the TropeTalkOverlySarcasticProductions Love triangle video in my head as I wrote that. It's just a lot of people act like there is no triangle in this story when two girls having feelings for one guy no matter how ambiguous is definitely still a love triangle add Zack and yes square. Then they get surprised that we get scenes of Aerith interested in Cloud like it's the biggest evil (not anyone here! You're all honestly very refreshing to talk with But yeah...) When yeah, they are going to show both girls interested in the guy because it's a triangle. It's just how that goes.

Also just caught up with the thread and so many good points were made. So much interesting topics as well. Lots of different perspectives. It's great to have that.

This may fall squarely into the realm and level of pedantry upon which I have built my empire, but I must disagree with the love square. That implies there is some sort of connection between all the points. We are dealing with a love U or even a love N or Z.
To borrow from the image of the linked video, an example of a full love square would be Archie's situation once you include Reggie Mantle, or the strange situation involving Josie (Jones or McCoy), Alan M, and the Cabot twins.
Or Ladybug and Cat Noir and their civilian identities.

I thought for a love triangle to work, both girl need to have feelings for the guy, and the guy need to have feeling for both girls at the same level…that’s why I think they are killing the LTD in rebirth, because Cloud clearly have strong romantic feelings for Tifa. His feeling for Aerith is not so strong, and in my play through, he called her a “Nakama”

Nope. All you need is three people, interest, and a teeny amount of uncertainty.

But that doesn’t make sense if one side is unrequited? If you and your partner are perfectly in love, but there is another person hits on you, is it a love triangle?

In almost every case, no, because love triangles are useful descriptors for narratives rather than real life, but also because there's a missing narrative element.
To use a weird example- There exists for a brief moment in Les Mis a love triangle. It only exists from the time between when Marius learns that Cosette exists and the two become a couple. During this entire period Eponine is crushing on him - without him realizing - and it's her interest in him during the period where he's newly interested in Cosette but before the two become an item that makes the 'triangle' state happen.

Am I making sense?

In a story, depending on how its presented, yes, but usually there is some element of uncertainty about the outcome of it.
If the story makes it seem like the person doing the seducing is succeeding, even if they really aren't, then it's still seen as a love triangle because that's how we, the viewer, experience it.

That having been said, ffvii DEFINITELY doesn't have a love triangle, and I hate that we keep using the term. It either has a love square, or nothing. A triangle is the one thing it most definitely does not have.

Nah, it does have a Triangle. It's of the A -> C <-> T type as Aerith has interest but no chance, but that is technically a triangle because Cloud and Tifa are interested in each other but not aware of each's interest.

Here is the thing. You don't need any love story between anyone to have a triangle. You just need three people with at least two having interest or romantic feelings in the other.


You can have

A and B like C that's a triangle

A likes B secretly but B likes C secretly that's also a triangle.

Strange but also a triangle A hates B but B likes C and C likes A. That is weird but still a triangle by definition.

And I think that's the problem. People assume a triangle means everyone in the triangle feels the same way. When that's not at all what it means it's literally just a dynamic set up for literary purposes.

You can argue because of Zack after 1997 gaining a bigger role we now have a square. Still, it started w triangle dynamics.

More like two overlapping triangles, IMO.
Also you forgot one of my favorite triangles A likes B, B likes C, but C likes A.

 

[eleamaya]

All you need is three people, interest, and a teeny amount of uncertainty.

In almost every case, love triangles are useful descriptors for narratives rather than real life, but also because there's a missing narrative element.

To use a weird example- There exists for a brief moment in Les Mis a love triangle. It only exists from the time between when Marius learns that Cosette exists and the two become a couple. During this entire period Eponine is crushing on him - without him realizing - and it's her interest in him during the period where he's newly interested in Cosette but before the two become an item that makes the 'triangle' state happen.

Am I making sense?

Nah, it does have a Triangle. It's of the A -> C <-> T type as Aerith has interest but no chance, but that is technically a triangle because Cloud and Tifa are interested in each other but not aware of each's interest.

Les Miserables = Eponine --> Marius <--> Cosette
FFVII = Aerith --> Cloud <--> Tifa

Aerith should ask a goodbye kiss like Eponine here when dying
(if I'm not wrong remembering, Eponine ask that and Marius give her)
Oh and I bet the musical movie played by Hugh Jackman is one of Nomura's favorites.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Aerith should ask a goodbye kiss like Eponine here when dying

Friend this will seal the necromancer love by C/A don't give them ideas ~ i beg you its disgusting already HAHAHHAHAA

 

[eleamaya]

Friend this will seal the necromancer love by C/A don't give them ideas ~ i beg you its disgusting already HAHAHHAHAA

Eponine doesn't have Z-factor, maybe that's the difference.

 

[Yoru]

Aerith should ask a goodbye kiss like Eponine here when dying

I'm already reading the most insane takes I have ever seen with just one of the girl getting kissed. Thank god the devs didn't go that way.

 

[Sacky]

See I think it's still the same Aerith, it's just she is preparing for her visit to the upper room.

I really don't think it is since we have 2 Aerith dreams the date and the forest we give the materia from date Aerith to the forest one which is our one. Cloud is the only one unconscious which is the only way to enter the dream lifestream the green visions show Cait sith is apologising to the group and Aerith. They never actually fell from the temple

 

[billy22]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1772891996224618970

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1772892767821385868

 

[Sacky]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1772891996224618970

And so it begins

 

[Stiggie]

This may fall squarely into the realm and level of pedantry upon which I have built my empire, but I must disagree with the love square. That implies there is some sort of connection between all the points. We are dealing with a love U or even a love N or Z.
To borrow from the image of the linked video, an example of a full love square would be Archie's situation once you include Reggie Mantle, or the strange situation involving Josie (Jones or McCoy), Alan M, and the Cabot twins.
Or Ladybug and Cat Noir and their civilian identities.


Nope. All you need is three people, interest, and a teeny amount of uncertainty.


In almost every case, no, because love triangles are useful descriptors for narratives rather than real life, but also because there's a missing narrative element.
To use a weird example- There exists for a brief moment in Les Mis a love triangle. It only exists from the time between when Marius learns that Cosette exists and the two become a couple. During this entire period Eponine is crushing on him - without him realizing - and it's her interest in him during the period where he's newly interested in Cosette but before the two become an item that makes the 'triangle' state happen.

Am I making sense?


Nah, it does have a Triangle. It's of the A -> C <-> T type as Aerith has interest but no chance, but that is technically a triangle because Cloud and Tifa are interested in each other but not aware of each's interest.


More like two overlapping triangles, IMO.
Also you forgot one of my favorite triangles A likes B, B likes C, but C likes A.

Following this logic it wouldn't be a love triangle either unless either aerith, or tifa, wants to fuck the other

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

This may fall squarely into the realm and level of pedantry upon which I have built my empire, but I must disagree with the love square. That implies there is some sort of connection between all the points. We are dealing with a love U or even a love N or Z.
To borrow from the image of the linked video, an example of a full love square would be Archie's situation once you include Reggie Mantle, or the strange situation involving Josie (Jones or McCoy), Alan M, and the Cabot twins.
Or Ladybug and Cat Noir and their civilian identities.


Nope. All you need is three people, interest, and a teeny amount of uncertainty.


In almost every case, no, because love triangles are useful descriptors for narratives rather than real life, but also because there's a missing narrative element.
To use a weird example- There exists for a brief moment in Les Mis a love triangle. It only exists from the time between when Marius learns that Cosette exists and the two become a couple. During this entire period Eponine is crushing on him - without him realizing - and it's her interest in him during the period where he's newly interested in Cosette but before the two become an item that makes the 'triangle' state happen.

Am I making sense?


Nah, it does have a Triangle. It's of the A -> C <-> T type as Aerith has interest but no chance, but that is technically a triangle because Cloud and Tifa are interested in each other but not aware of each's interest.


More like two overlapping triangles, IMO.
Also you forgot one of my favorite triangles A likes B, B likes C, but C likes A.

Ah yeah the Les Mis triangle.

I love that play. I have seen it live twice but I always forget it exists. It's one of the weirdest triangles out there. Still a triangle. I agree with the two overlapping triangles thing. In different points of the story I do think the dynamics change. There is also a Zack Aerith triangle for a brief moment before Zack and Aerith officially get together in CC as well as Elena Tseng Aerith triangle in OG Where A likes B but B likes C. C is torn between two other guys so is unaware of either.

Your favorite one is rare but there are several anime that follow it. Like that is a love octagon going on in Nagiasu: A Lull In The Sea and the main cast has this in there at one point. It's definitely something

 

[Graymouse]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1772891996224618970

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1772892767821385868

Oh boy.

Your favorite one is rare but there are several anime that follow it. Like that is a love octagon going on in Nagiasu: A Lull In The Sea and the main cast has this in there at one point. It's definitely something

Chisaki and Tsumugu for the Win

 

[Ryushikaze]

Following this logic it wouldn't be a love triangle either unless either aerith, or tifa, wants to fuck the other

Who says they don't? But what it really is is that Zack and Tifa are complete non-entities to each other. If we were in a more normal situation and they were all part of the same friend group, I'd say that'd be grounds for calling it a square, but Zack and Tifa literally meet once, when he's very much with Aerith and she's very much hoping to meet Cloud again.

Ah yeah the Les Mis triangle.

I love that play. I have seen it live twice but I always forget it exists. It's one of the weirdest triangles out there. Still a triangle. I agree with the two overlapping triangles thing. In different points of the story I do think the dynamics change. There is also a Zack Aerith triangle for a brief moment before Zack and Aerith officially get together in CC as well as Elena Tseng Aerith triangle in OG Where A likes B but B likes C. C is torn between two other guys so is unaware of either.

Your favorite one is rare but there are several anime that follow it. Like that is a love octagon going on in Nagiasu: A Lull In The Sea and the main cast has this in there at one point. It's definitely something

I may check that out. Are you familiar with Uresai Yatsura or Ranma 1/2 and their various love polyhedrals?

 

[Stiggie]

Who says they don't? But what it really is is that Zack and Tifa are complete non-entities to each other. If we were in a more normal situation and they were all part of the same friend group, I'd say that'd be grounds for calling it a square, but Zack and Tifa literally meet once, when he's very much with Aerith and she's very much hoping to meet Cloud again.

Who says Zack and Tifa don't? I've heard shippers genuinely support it and the entire premise of Cloud and Aerith as a ship is essentially founded on the idea that you can fall in love unreasonably quickly and without evidence, I can guarantee that I wouldn't need to see Tifa for more than 1 second to know that I'd want to sleep with her. Until I see any evidence that Aerith and Tifa have a romantic bond going on I don't see any justification to make any distinction between their 2 week friendship and Zack/Tifas aquintancehood that does not come down to special pleading.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Who says they don't?

- but on otherside I geniunely wished they have not put Aerith's character in par with soo much on love triangle. I kinda wished there was a 'date' for all 3 girls though~ mostly on last chapters her scenes are with 'Cloud'

I'm taking off the shipping googles here. I'm not complaining her scenes with Cloud they needed than in the story but I wished there was more 'indept' with other characters especially near end. - I know she's able to open up and seems to be close other characters in the team .. except for Cloud he's still on guard with her hence probably why most of her scenes last chapters on ending are with him.

I would also love to have a side quest for Barret and Aerith ( put that sunglasses on!!!)

In remake I love those small scenes with Tifa and wedge just before fall of sector 7~

- i forgot who said it on this forum seems the 'love triangle' is like a poison ruining a good moment.

 

[CldS7]

- but on otherside I geniunely wished they have not put Aerith's character in par with soo much on love triangle. I kinda wished there was a 'date' for all 3 girls though~ mostly on last chapters her scenes are with 'Cloud'

I'm taking off the shipping googles here. I'm not complaining her scenes with Cloud they needed than in the story but I wished there was more 'indept' with other characters especially near end.

I would also love to have a side quest for Barret and Aerith ( put that sunglasses on!!!)

- i forgot who said it on this forum seems the 'love triangle' is like a poison ruining a good moment.

a lot of people argue that Aeriths focus on "dates and dating" is her trying to live in the moment and this is her big first adventure that she was promised

but I genuinely dont see the scenes in the game come across this way at all

I feel like she's the only character written like we're in 1997, whilst everyone else has been modernised only so they could bait her fanbase to buy this game

 

[Empyrea]

Oh and I bet the musical movie played by Hugh Jackman is one of Nomura's favorites.

I've heard several say Nomura wanted FF13VS to be a musical at some point because he saw Les Mis, so...

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I feel like she's the only character written like we're in 1997, whilst everyone else has been modernised only so they could bait her fanbase to buy this game

agree to disagree.. in a sad way I can't help but think you're right. I mean Remake she's totally awesome.. ( not because of shipping okay) but her interaction with the rest of the team.

I'm not sure but my personal theory is it seems they have a plan for Aerith's character but scratch it.. or we'll see in part 3

A don't agree she's poorly written.. but it seems there are a lot of 'lost potential there'

 

[Ryushikaze]

Who says Zack and Tifa don't? I've heard shippers genuinely support it and the entire premise of Cloud and Aerith is essentially founded on the idea that you can fall in love unreasonably quickly. Until I see any evidence that Aerith and Tifa have a romantic bond going on I don't see any justification to make any distinction between their friendship and Zack/Tifas aquintancehood that does not come down to special pleading.

You misunderstand me. Tifa and Aerith are the bases of a triangle because they are both interested in the same guy and more importantly, they know and interact with each other. Their interaction and is what changes the situation from "Cloud has two women into him" into a triangle. If they never met, or on the other hand, if they both wanted Cloud but wanted to share, you wouldn't have the triangle.
They could hate each other, be best friends, be sisters, or be romantically involved. All of those and more are valid for classic "love triangles"

I argue that Zack is not closing out a "love square" because He and Tifa only ever briefly met once and the topic of their conversation was "Tifa is into Cloud" basically immediately. Zack is part of Aerith's love triangle because hers is internal and it's her memory of him versus her image of Cloud (and all the Zack mannerisms he's adopted). Zack is related, but he's unconnected. Much in the same way Elena is technically related to Aerith's love pyramid because she's interested in someone interested in Aerith.

 

[Stiggie]

- but on otherside I geniunely wished they have not put Aerith's character in par with soo much on love triangle. I kinda wished there was a 'date' for all 3 girls though~ mostly on last chapters her scenes are with 'Cloud'

I'm taking off the shipping googles here. I'm not complaining her scenes with Cloud they needed than in the story but I wished there was more 'indept' with other characters especially near end. - I know she's able to open up and seems to be close other characters in the team .. except for Cloud he's still on guard with her hence probably why most of her scenes last chapters on ending are with him.

I would also love to have a side quest for Barret and Aerith ( put that sunglasses on!!!)

In remake I love those small scenes with Tifa and wedge just before fall of sector 7~

- i forgot who said it on this forum seems the 'love triangle' is like a poison ruining a good moment.

That was probably me.

Problem with Aeriths non-optional scenes is that none of them are set-up, they're ALL pay-off.
This is a problem because if you do a barebones run of this game, or generally just don't do the Aerith sidequests you will play a game where Aerith comes across as completely demented.
She'll have a short talk with Cloud about Tifa in Kalm. Then they walk up a mountain together once where she does some generic pontificating, and Cloud shouts at her once in Cosmo Canyon.....and unless I am forgetting something I think that could very well already be it until chapter 12. Before that almost everything she's shown doing in intimate settings is pine over Zack. But then suddenly in chapter 12 she sings a love song to presumably Cloud, who depending on your playthrough might be holding hands with another woman. And then she has the worlds most overly dramatic death sequence where she treats Cloud as though theirs was a bond for the ages.

It's downright bizarre.

And I'm not complaining about the pay-offs themselves, when Aerith dies it SHOULD feel like it would be a huge loss to Cloud. What I am complaining about is that they did nothing with her character to justify that.
Note that this problem doesn't exist with Tifa. By which I mean, Tifa being absolutely heartbroken feels completely earned, even ignoring the element of Clouds behavior worsening her mental state.
In the most barebones Playthrough we still show Tifa offering Aerith a massage, them talking in bed, them talking about their first loves, them dressing up as soldiers together, or putting on bikinis together. Aerith comforting Tifa after Gongaga, Tifa comforting and helping Aerith in Gongaga in regards to Zack. I think you'll probably get a scene of Aerith mentioning how much she wishes she had a friend (like Tifa is constantly shown to be). You'll get a scene of the two of them uniting happily in the temple of the ancients and seemingly having eyes for no one but each other.

And lets not even get into "what if Tifa died", the entire game seemed to be about setting up Tifas bonds. Hell, the game did a better job at setting up the pain of Tifas death for Cloud by the time you reach Gongaga than it does for Aerith by chapter 14.
So why the hell does Aerith have none of that? I don't want to sound like a broken record but....It really is downright bizarre.

 

[CldS7]

That was probably me.

Problem with Aeriths non-optional scenes is that none of them are set-up, they're ALL pay-off.
This is a problem because if you do a barebones run of this game, or generally just don't do the Aeriths sidequests you will play a game where Aerith comes across and completely demented.
She'll have a short talk with Cloud about Tifa in Kalm. Then they walk up a mountain together once where she does some generic pontificating, and Cloud shouts at her once in Cosmo Canyon.....and unless I am forgetting something I think that could very well already be it until chapter 12. Before that almost everything she's show doing in intimate settings is pine over Zack. But then suddenly in chapter 12 she sings a love song to presumably Cloud, who depending on your playthrough might be holding hands with another woman. And then she has the worlds most overly dramatic death sequence where she treats Cloud as though theirs was a bond for the ages.

It's downright bizarre.

And I'm not complaining about the pay-offs themselves, when Aerith dies it SHOULD feel like it would be a huge loss. What I am complaining about is that they did nothing with her character to justify that.
Note that this problem doesn't exist with Tifa. By which I mean, Tifa being absolutely heartbroken feels completely earned, even ignoring the element of Clouds behavior worsening her mental state.
In the most barebones Playthrough we still show Tifa offering Aerith a massage, them talking in bed, them talking about their first loves, them dressing up as soldiers together, or putting on bikinis together. Aerith comforting Tifa after Gongaga, Tifa comforting and helping Aerith in Gongaga in regards to Zack. I think you'll probably get a scene of Aerith mentioning how much she wishes she had a friend like Tifa. You'll get a scene of the two of them uniting happily in the temple of the ancients and seemingly having eyes for no one but each other.

And lets not even get into what if Tifa died, the entire game seemed to be about setting up Tifas bonds.
So why the hell does Aerith have none of that? I don't want to sound like a broken record but....It really is downright bizarre.

yes yes yes all this. (you forgot the forced scene of Nibelheim tower)

why is there a forced last chapter focusing on "Aerith and Clouds Bond" when the whole of the rest of the game literally made me care more for what would happen to Tifa and how would she feel when/if Aerith dies

 

[CldS7]

this might be a wild take but I do wonder if they originally thought of 'killing' Tifa with the amount of character work they did for her this game. Obviously im glad they didnt lol I would have started a fucking riot but its just a thought

 

[Sacky]

this might be a wild take but I do wonder if they originally thought of 'killing' Tifa with the amount of character work they did for her this game. Obviously im glad they didnt lol I would have started a fucking riot but its just a thought

Theres just no way killing Tifa works Cause the story cant continue, no one can get Real Cloud back but Tifa. Cloud would shut down into his catatonic state. Sephiroth would win but obviously we know Sephiroth aint winning in the end XD

 

[Sacky]

That was probably me.

Problem with Aeriths non-optional scenes is that none of them are set-up, they're ALL pay-off.
This is a problem because if you do a barebones run of this game, or generally just don't do the Aeriths sidequests you will play a game where Aerith comes across as completely demented.
She'll have a short talk with Cloud about Tifa in Kalm. Then they walk up a mountain together once where she does some generic pontificating, and Cloud shouts at her once in Cosmo Canyon.....and unless I am forgetting something I think that could very well already be it until chapter 12. Before that almost everything she's show doing in intimate settings is pine over Zack. But then suddenly in chapter 12 she sings a love song to presumably Cloud, who depending on your playthrough might be holding hands with another woman. And then she has the worlds most overly dramatic death sequence where she treats Cloud as though theirs was a bond for the ages.

It's downright bizarre.

And I'm not complaining about the pay-offs themselves, when Aerith dies it SHOULD feel like it would be a huge loss to Cloud. What I am complaining about is that they did nothing with her character to justify that.
Note that this problem doesn't exist with Tifa. By which I mean, Tifa being absolutely heartbroken feels completely earned, even ignoring the element of Clouds behavior worsening her mental state.
In the most barebones Playthrough we still show Tifa offering Aerith a massage, them talking in bed, them talking about their first loves, them dressing up as soldiers together, or putting on bikinis together. Aerith comforting Tifa after Gongaga, Tifa comforting and helping Aerith in Gongaga in regards to Zack. I think you'll probably get a scene of Aerith mentioning how much she wishes she had a friend (like Tifa is constantly shown to be). You'll get a scene of the two of them uniting happily in the temple of the ancients and seemingly having eyes for no one but each other.

And lets not even get into "what if Tifa died", the entire game seemed to be about setting up Tifas bonds. Hell, the game did a better job at setting up the paint of Tifas death for Cloud by the time you reach Gongaga than it does for Aerith by chapter 14.
So why the hell does Aerith have none of that? I don't want to sound like a broken record but....It really is downright bizarre.

This is it honestly main story alone Aerith doesn't really speak to Cloud which makes it so strange for No promises to Keep to be sung. If you have done Aeriths side missions it makes more sense but you should never have to do sidemissions to make a main story make sense. Even with Aeriths gold saucer date, it seems strange since she just mentions Zack and Cloud seems so weird in that scene at the start, looking away and barely speaking to her in a date scene!? He finally holds her hand but then after that says "i didn't do anything?". When most of Aeriths scenes in the story are in relation to Zack, speaking to Nanaki, or speaking to Cloud about Tifa. There really should have been more interactions in the main story with Cloud and Aerith and not romantic just actual conversation or set up.