SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LNK]

I swear Cloud does call Tifa his "nakama"? I just checked it's in Dissidia 012 I think.

Which is not canon to ff7. It'd be like quoting Maiden

 

[Yoru]

That monologue is blocked out. As if Cloud is repressing it.

But yeah, you see him mouth it.

Yes that's what i'm saying. When the team reach them, what they're seeing is Cloud doing his monologue. But Cloud is blocking it and thinks he's crying about her close friend death. Because he refuses to give more credit to Sephiroth whole "you"re a puppet" show

 

[GamerSkull]

Which is not canon to ff7. It'd be like quoting Maiden

Which people still do.

In fact, I remember something about the book saying that Aerith met Zack while selling flowers and it was not serious.

Is my memory false?

But if that is in the book, then it’s already incongruent with canon events. Aerith gets the idea of selling flowers from Zack.

 

[Yoru]

Which people still do.

In fact, I remember something about the book saying that Aerith met Zack while selling flowers and it was not serious.

Is my memory false?

But if that is in the book, then it’s already incongruent with canon events. Aerith gets the idea of selling flowers from Zack.

Yes. One of the many fights of Nojima is retconning the shit out of it. That's why it is the sacred text of Clerith.

 

[LNK]

He thinks he saved her AFTER she puts her hand on his cheek and tells him everything will be alright. So no, the "fake cry"/OG monologue is still being used with a dead Aerith in mind.

Oh I agree. He definitely does those things, but the way he is acting from then on, he's not acting like he knows she's dead. As @GamerSkull said, he seems to be repressing the fact. That's why I don't think he's showing any sadness in those scenes, nor is it fair to compare to how he acts when he thinks Tifa is dead. There's more at play surrounding Aerith's death.

To be clear, I don't think he'd show the same sadness as he does with Tifa.

 

[abzy1200]

Which is not canon to ff7. It'd be like quoting Maiden

I guess so, yeah.

 

[Yoru]

I guess so, yeah.

If we follow the logic of trusting Dissidia words, then Kingdom Hearts is also canon. A game where Tifa is Cloud's Light. Figuratively and literally. Not a good sign for the Clerith army I dare say.

And that's pretty much the whole point of this LTD nonsense. Cloti can see the end of the road even when taking into account all of the FF7 universe while Clerith has to be super selective, has to deny a LOT of things. Literally an Ockam Razors demonstration.

So if you're really afraid. Don't. IT WON'T HAPPEN. That's not how these characters have been designed to.

Aerith was and always will be a lost opportunity.
Tifa was and always will be the true love interest.

Because that's how they've been written. They're not real persons. They're the will of their author. And this author has never been this clear.

 

[LNK]

I guess so, yeah.

That's the kind of stuff that should be ignored when having these discussions

Yes. One of the many fights of Nojima is retconning the shit out of it. That's why it is the sacred text of Clerith.

Which kind of sucks. Not from a LTD standpoint though. I love the concept of Maiden. A story of what's happening with the characters after they die? Yes please. Obviously Case of Lifestream did it later on, but it was mostly just around Aerith and Sephiroth

Which people still do.

In fact, I remember something about the book saying that Aerith met Zack while selling flowers and it was not serious.

Is my memory false?

But if that is in the book, then it’s already incongruent with canon events. Aerith gets the idea of selling flowers from Zack.

I think someone was trying to do it in here like a week ago

 

[GamerSkull]

That's the kind of stuff that should be ignored when having these discussions


Which kind of sucks. Not from a LTD standpoint though. I love the concept of Maiden. A story of what's happening with the characters after they die? Yes please. Obviously Case of Lifestream did it later on, but it was mostly just around Aerith and Sephiroth


I think someone was trying to do it in here like a week ago

Maybe Nojima should write his own version of Maiden that’s longer than the Lifestream White stuff.

But frankly, I’m hoping he writes more stories about the rest of the group. He still hasn’t written a Vincent short story. In book form I guess. Not counting Dirge. Or a Cid story.

Heck, let’s get a story of Zack right when he first joined SOLDIER. Or Angeal when he first got the Buster Sword.

I guess what I’m saying is Nojima should write more books. I’d read them.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Aerith at the end of Rebirth : He's crying... but not really. Why do you think we see the OG scene happening at the same time ? Because in the OG Cloud doesn't cry. He's just talking over her corpse. So why do we see him cry now ?

- OMG THANK YOU FOR POINTING THIS OUT~ Rebirth Cloud is creepier he's not crying he's smiling ( OMG cloud ) while Tifa's the one whose crying.. Also yeaah in OG I get a lot of bashers from C/A when I pointed it out--> OG CLOUD not crying he's shouting he's angry.

Aerith will no longer cry or get angry
what about me what are we supposed to do?

- if you look into the real reason because he thinks this is a stronger version of himself that's strong enough to protect his friends. If both his weaker side (REAL CLOUD) and stronger side (SOLDIER CLOUD) is useless then what can he do?? There's nothing romantic here but just pure trauma.

 

[LNK]

Maybe Nojima should write his own version of Maiden that’s longer than the Lifestream White stuff.

I'm actually holding out hope that instead of a book, that's what is happening in the RE: Trilogy. Fingers crossed twice haha

But frankly, I’m hoping he writes more stories about the rest of the group. He still hasn’t written a Vincent short story. In book form I guess. Not counting Dirge. Or a Cid story.

This would be welcome. Those two never got a short story in OtwtaS. At the very least Cid. He's the only one who never got something outside ff7. Could possibly be where we get a more definitive x/x-2 connection. Hmmmm

I guess what I’m saying is Nojima should write more books. I’d read them.

Lol I would too. I love all the expanded material

 

[liuliuliu]

The flashback cloud told is not what actually happened. You never know what he did before he grabbed the buster sword and stabbed Sephiroth.

Edit: Don’t think it was showed inCC as well.

 

[liuliuliu]

But I don't see why it would have to, Cloud is 100% going to meet Aerith and Zack again during the ending of the third game, and they're inevitably going to have some sort of "Don't get hung up on us" included in their goodbye to him or something.

Very interesting, how do you think Clerith will play out when Cloud meet Aerith and Zack in the lifestream? The Zack who died because to save Cloud and the Zack who tried to reunite with to Aerith for 2 games.
It will be a very interesting portrait for Cloud.

EDIT: I can’t remember any JRPG that has its main protagonist takes his friend’s girlfriend as the love of his life regardless knowing his friend is still in love with that girl…?
It is an upsetting idea for a lot of people honestly
Also Clerith is not a bad ending if the writers can jump through 10 hoops and make Clerith narratively make sense.

 

[Stiggie]

See, I don't know what it's from, and I agree with you. Cloud doesn't see Tifa as a friend, but the fact that he calls Tifa "nakama" means that, to Cloud, calling somebody "nakama" isn't a friendzone. Which is why I can't help but feel it's a little disingenuous to point fingers to the scene at the church and say "friendzoned".

The thing is context matters, calling someone a friend after a date is different from calling someone a friend in a general setting. Plus, not Canon you know

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

It would be awful, it would be a travesty, but the Re;trilogy now has a pattern of having terrible endings, and with things escalating even more than they did in remake in regards to weird timeline/dimension stuff, I can't help but feel like it's going to happen again that we get another bad ending.

Welcome an' shit

I don't have much to add at present that someone else hasn't already said, in fact I'm replying before fully catching up on this thread so someone else may have mentioned this already. But, I want to say one thing about endings. Not to argue the endings of Remake/Rebirth are brilliant, that was always gonna be a subjective mess. No, I want to point out that a godly chunk of the issue with them is the episodic format of these games. They're endings, true, but they're not The End. Any work of fiction may have a bad spot in the middle. A movie can end Act I on a bad note. A novel can have a terrible chapter or two in the middle. But we can usually forgive that, if the rest of the work is strong including The End.

Act I and II both got weird at their ending point, no denying that. But until The End, that pattern doesn't fully matter. If all goes well it'll give proper closure to the weird Act endings before it and refrain from introducing more, since it'll be the real end of the story.

Until it gets here, I wouldn't panic about it

 

[shady]

Yes. One of the many fights of Nojima is retconning the shit out of it. That's why it is the sacred text of Clerith.

Which is really weird when you read Maiden, when I first heard about Cloud and Aerith shippers fighting tooth and nail for this to be canon I thought ah it must be pretty heavy on the Clerith stuff then…

But no, i think the most you get is Aerith calling Cloud ‘koibito’ but aside from that (and Zack being massively OOC) all i remember is Cloud and Tifa being happy and together in the real world whilst Aerith smiles on from the afterlife like ‘a proud mother’ ?

So they don’t even end up together in Maiden, there’s never any indication that Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith and i’m pretty sure even though she just calls him a playboy, Zack still sticks around at the end.. and this was written before CC and by the authors own words on their website is non canon, so all in all, its pretty funny.

 

[Yoru]

Which is really weird when you read Maiden, when I first heard about Cloud and Aerith shippers fighting tooth and nail for this to be canon I thought ah it must be pretty heavy on the Clerith stuff then…

But no, i think the most you get is Aerith calling Cloud ‘koibito’ but aside from that (and Zack being massively OOC) all i remember is Cloud and Tifa being happy and together in the real world whilst Aerith smiles on from the afterlife like ‘a proud mother’ ?

So they don’t even end up together in Maiden, there’s never any indication that Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith and i’m pretty sure even though she just calls him a playboy, Zack still sticks around at the end.. and this was written before CC and by the authors own words on their website is non canon, so all in all, its pretty funny.

Maiden is important to them because it reinforce the idea that Cloud is just waiting to die. Sure he’s living his life with Tifa but its just temporary. A second choice at best. Pretty much the same with Zack. He’s around but he’s just a nobody to Aerith.

Not saying it’s what happens, just saying what they read when opening Maiden pages

OG Clerith don’t have a problem with Aerith dying. They have a problem with Cloud moving on and the Tifa reveal in the LS. So their narrative has always been the same. Tifa is just a second choice by default because Cloud lost the love of his life. He doesn’t give a damn about her, he’s just trying to fill the void. And he can’t because Aerith was the one and only. As Cloud is the one and only to Aerith. Zack was just a good friend.

tl;dr : we just have to erase Tifa and Zack

 

[Maidenofwar]

This thread popped off huh?

Since when wasn't Dissidia canon, that rule's changed since the last time.

 

[Stiggie]

This thread popped off huh?

Since when wasn't Dissidia canon, that rule's changed since the last time.

Was dissidia ever considered canon? That would feel extremely weird to me for reasons completely unrelated to shipping

 

[Hix]

Since when wasn't Dissidia canon, that rule's changed since the last time.

You're right. Though it's still a matter of debate as to it's canonicity within each individual instalment that it borrows from, Dissidia is itself canon and a full Final Fantasy - as it were.

Regarding the subject of "nakama" though, it should come as no surprise that the word has multiple interpretations based on the context.

For instance, in Dissidia 012 Cloud asks Cosmos to "heal my nakama" in reference to Tifa. It wasn't a moment where he was sitting down trying to discuss the minutia of his relationship with Tifa. He wasn't even talking to Tifa, but to Cosmos. One can suggest perhaps he was too embarrassed to say "lover" or "girlfriend" or the like, but it was hardly a moment in which the relationship between Cloud and Tifa is made or broken either way.

Now, when Cloud calls Aerith the same thing, the context is entirely different. We've just had the Sector 5 dream date, an entire recreation of the same date in the same location as Aerith had in Crisis Core, but with Zack. Her behaviour comes across as weird to Cloud, who comments as much on a number of occasions.

Events don't play out as they did in Crisis Core - one will note however that the game goes along with the illusion, classifying this as a "Zack chapter," his face appearing on the save file and the entire scene skipped if one switches Zack off from the menu - and the date doesn't work, Cloud can't be made into Zack no matter how much she tries.

Finally, in the church, Cloud calls her a nakama - or, in high affection, says they'll hang out together again - to which Aerith is disappointed and leads to her admitting that she is unsure of her feelings for Cloud. It's liking, for sure, but it's not quite like liking after all.

The context of this nakama is radically different. Now Cloud is addressing Aerith directly after an entire chapter seemingly dedicated to providing closure for the two, and in particular, Aerith. This sequence serves to define Aerith's relationship with Cloud as having gone from strangers to solid friends in a few short weeks. In this context, the word nakama was used deliberately by the devs to enhance that definition.

Whereas in the case of Dissidia the word nakama was not the focus of the scene, here the word lies at the heart of what the entire scene is about - thus it works and ultimately remains the same in both high and low affections, the narrative flows well into either so long as one remembers that this is definitively Aerith's moment of emotional closure, just as it's about to physically be so also.

 

[Yoru]

You're right. Though it's still a matter of debate as to it's canonicity within each individual instalment that it borrows from, Dissidia is itself canon and a full Final Fantasy - as it were.

As @GamerSkull mentioned, it can be considered canon, it's just the words don't have the same weight. You can't really compare a "normal" FF7 discussion with a game like Dissidia, designed above all as a recreation for players who don't necessarily know all the ins and outs of the FF brand.

Again, we can play the game of "Let's make all the FF7 content canon" Cloti and Zerith is still easier to explain than a Clerith true ending.

There is just too many things to ignore to make it works.

 

[Ryeleigh]

In fact, I remember something about the book saying that Aerith met Zack while selling flowers and it was not serious.

Wait, so Aerith and Zack's very first meeting was supposed to be the same as Aerith and Cloud's, lol? So much for that "copying from CA".

 

[Yoru]

Wait, so Aerith and Zack's very first meeting was supposed to be the same as Aerith and Cloud's, lol? So much for that "copying from CA".

Not the first time they would have shot themselves in the foot.

And it's something that pisses me off (strong word, it will not change my life but you get what i mean) with the Extreme side of the Clerith fandom. Their constant mental gymnastics to prove their point but refuse we use the same logic against them.

Reminds me of the whole "The kiss during their date is fake. It's not even the Real Cloud yadi yada" then ok, I follow what you're saying so we can say the same for the date with Aerith. He's taking her hand after she confessed, but he's lost, he's not really him. All the same. And suddenly ! Magic happens ! You can't say that, because with Aerith it's not working the same. Why ? Because.

And it keeps happening again and again. They're just taking what they want from the story and ignore the rest.

Again. Not talking about Clerith as a whole. Just the most hypocrites ones.

 

[Sacky]

SPOILERS AHEAD

Listen I get you say you are dooming or being negative. We’ve all been there even in things unrelated to Final Fantasy VII or gaming in general, hell I can be a pessimist in real life for sure…

Your feelings are valid in this case, especially when they’ve fed LTD stuff in the past, but I don't think you are correct in a lot of what you think could happen, let me explain.

For starters let me preface this by saying, I think a lot of people struggle to seperate the blurred lines of "feelings" between characters in media, especially when they are complicated or expressed in ways that we wouldn't necessarily express these feelings ourselves, let me give 3 different examples.

Liking - The basic form of being interested in somebody, either platonically or romantically. (e.g Aerith not knowing what kind of "like" she likes Cloud. Cloud liking Barret as a friend and so on)

Love - The secondary form of being interested in somebody, either platonically or romantically. (e.g Cloud loving Zack as a friend and brother figure or Tifa loving Barret as a friend and father figure)

In Love - A completely seperate form of being interested in somebody, probably the highest you can express, this can only be in romantic form. (e.g. Aerith and Zack being in love with each other during their relationship and Cloud and Tifa being in love with each other since their teens. I don't think either of these is a reach considering all the material we have to go on.)

1. Cloud's reaction to Aerith's death (as well as in relation to Tifa's "death")
Now I don't see this as out of the ordinary at all, let's assume for a moment he has the same exact reaction in the OG, except the parts like the speech which he has blocked out in Rebirth. The only reason you don't see this in the OG and we can feign ignorance is because of the lack of graphics, animation and voice acting, but suffice to say i'm sure he is just as upset in the OG as he is in Rebirth, yet everything that happens in Disc 2 still happens regardless. Now why wouldn't Cloud be upset? For starters we play the game through the eyes of Cloud for the most part, we bond with him and feel what he feels because he's our gateway into the story and the lives of the characters.. it would be a failure on the part of the creators if we felt none of the pain or anguish Cloud feels and this is just as true when Aerith dies, because we are shown that whilst yes in Remake and Rebirth he can be quite abrasive towards Aerith and doesn't seem to reciprocate any flirty banter or potential interest, he can also be caring, understanding and comforting to her as well. This is because he loves Aerith even if he doesn't necessarily know this when the moment happens, yes I said loves, I know it's a scary word for shippers but it is the truth, but look at my definition above I don't think it's wildly out of pocket to say Cloud loves Aerith, maybe as something more than platonic but not quite so far enough as to be extremely romantic. What would you do and how would you feel if you tried to save somebody you loved only to instead see them brutally slain infront of you and you failed to save them. (Think his Mom, and especially what happened after losing Zack too.)

Now let's contrast this with what happens with Tifa earlier in the game, true, Cloud doesn't cry or get angry or anything like that, we do get the initial sense of disbelief and anguish as he cries out her name... but beyond that he immediately does what he has always done when his emotions are in turmoil when it comes to Tifa, his weaknesses are exploited (Sephiroth stepping in to exploit Cloud as he tries to save Tifa), his defenses are down (he becomes vulnerable as he regresses into a more vegetative state), as he becomes non verbal and unable to even move. It is only through a hard punch and Barret saying Tifa needs Cloud again that he is able to find the strength to even stand and walk almost drunkenly towards her. After this, we then get a cutscene where i'd argue we see a big glimpse of realCloud and he becomes the most open and vulnerable we've ever seen him up to this point, partially because he thought he'd almost lost her. Now a lot of this is because of the connection we know Cloud and Tifa have and how big of a role she has in his heart, her role in helping to make Cloud whole again, it harkens back to Cloud's state at the train station before Tifa found him, and it harkens back to the state the other Cloud is in in Zack's world, where he hasn't met Tifa again.

2. Aerith in the Lifestream sequence (instead of Tifa)
This is one I don't particularly understand, although I can see where you are coming from.. I wouldn't rule out the prospect of Aerith appearing in the Lifestream in some shape or form, even if it's just to guide Cloud and Tifa and protecting them from mako poisoning and such. But the idea of Aerith being the one to make Cloud whole and "fix him" so to speak with Tifa being erased from the equation as a whole just makes absolutely no sense from a narrative or character perspective. For starters I feel like a lot of people have either forgotten or don't fully understand what the Lifestream sequence even entails, it's not a best hits collection of Cloud's saddest memories or biggest failures which anyone can replace Tifa in helping Cloud get over them. It's a realisation that the Cloud we've come to know and understand was never the real Cloud all along, that we've been playing as not only an extremely unreliable narrator but a combination of different personalities stuffed into a Cloud shaped shell, with the real Cloud bursting to break free. Genuinely what purpose would Aerith or Aerith's death being shown in the Lifestream serve to restore Cloud back to the real Cloud? The narrative and characterization demands that Tifa can be the only one to help Cloud piece together what he has lost for two reasons.

2.1 - Because she is the only one in the party who has even met the real Cloud.
By Aerith's own admission in the games and even the side materials such as the novels, she never met the real Cloud, try as she might, up to that point... it would be impossible for her to help him in this regard. Hell you could make a better argument for Zack helping Cloud out than Aerith, he at least knew the real guy for a while. However Tifa is the only one that is able to confirm to him that he existed as a person before what happened at the Nibelheim mansion because she knew of him and his mother from childhood, and is the only one able to combat Sephiroth's gaslighting in this manner. Zack also would not work because of the next reason, which even Zack himself knows.

2.2 - Cloud is in love with Tifa Lockhart, not Aerith, they share mutual feelings, and he has buried these feelings deep within his real self.
Watch the OG Lifestream sequence where they confirm mutual feelings, read the novels such as TOTP (Tifa loves and wants to spend her life with Cloud) or the recent 2,000 Gil Cloud short story (Cloud wanted to become someone special to Tifa) hell just experience all that FF7 has to offer and there's no way anyone can deny this fact, even if they try to convince you otherwise. Cloud's whole motivation at this point is to become what he considers as worthy to be with Tifa because he's in love with her, with the irony being that Tifa never wanted or needed Cloud to become something he is not to be with her (TOTP) but of course both being shy they are unable to fully convey their feelings at the time. Thus a big part of the reason Tifa is the only one able to piece together real Cloud is because whilst he himself may be fragmented or 'hollow', his feelings for Tifa are something that have remained evermore. This is the reason you see his different physical and emotional reactions to and with Tifa throughout the games, even if they only happen subconciously. It's not a coincidence that Nomura himself said that real Cloud is somebody that only bubbles to the surface when he is around Tifa. This is why such scenes as the Lifestream exist in Gongaga -- This is the devs showing us that the planet considers Tifa important enough to protect her from Sephiroth and show her who real Cloud is because it knows the role she is about to play in restoring Cloud in Part 3, it's foreshadowing at its finest.) -- Consider as well that Tifa's precious memories consist predominantly of Cloud and vice versa. To replace Tifa here with Aerith would take a considerable rewrite and redefinition of the Lifestream sequence concept as a whole and remove a large and important part of Cloud and Tifa's carefully crafted arcs that intertwine with each other.

3. Cloud and Aerith will be canon in the endgame of the Retrilogy
Now this I can see why you might feel this way, for starters there is a lot of (mis)information going around the internet about a lot of things in relation to the 'LTD', what's optional, what's canon, who said what, in what language, who's in the credits, who knows Japanese culture better etc etc. It's all quite exhausting and quite frankly annoying but the internet will internet and it is what it is. I'm going to present some points as to why I think not only will this not happen, but would be extremely negligent and destructive for the devs to do this at this point.

3.1 - Hollow and NPTK
The discourse around these songs has been going since Remake and up until a week or so ago nobody would shut up about NPTK especially. But here's the thing,the developers have confirmed that Hollow is a song about Cloud's feelings, and the developers have confirmed NPTK is a song about Aerith's feelings. What they haven't specifically stated (to my knowledge) is that they are songs about their feelings towards each other and each other alone and there is a distinction between these two things. We already know from what happened last week that Nojima himself spoke on camera -- and later doubled down in a tweet -- that NPTK is a song about all of the people Aerith has loved, loves or who she has come to love through her life's journey up until this point, knowing that it likely isn't going to last much longer, yes this does include Cloud but it also includes Zack, Tifa, Elmyra, Ifalna etc. No amount of essay's, harassment, crying or otherwise will outweigh the words of the person who created and wrote the song as well as wrote the story and scenario of the Retrilogy and has been involved in the world of Final Fantasy VII since it's inception. As for Hollow, whilst we haven't had such a confirmation from Nojima or anyone else, suffice to say Cloud referencing being 'Hollow' in reference to forgetting who Zack was and losing himself to degredation, as well as the song itself playing in the Badlands where Zack died should be all the confirmation you need to know that the song is about more than just 'Cloud's undying burning love for Aerith and his wishing to be with her forever.'

3.2 - Cloud and Tifa's budding romance
In Remake if you didn't feel the tension and desire from both characters for each other then you were either being willfully ignorant when playing it, the constant need to touch each other, flirt, have serious conversations, parallels between saving each other etc etc was already pretty phenomenal stuff. Hell even Aerith -- before losing her memories -- seemed to engage and encourage the connection between Cloud and Tifa herself. Now on top of this, rather than think to themselves, okay we know we're going for a Cloud and Aerith endgame so let's tone down the Cloud and Tifa stuff and make sure we establish Cloud and Aerith as the true pairing, they instead doubled down on the Cloud and Tifa connection and decided to up the ante considerably. More touching, flirting, hugging, angst, romantic tension you could cut with a knife, a nearly kiss, an actual full on kiss, hand holding... Cloud fantastising about multiple Tifa's, Cloud and Tifa constantly touching and reassuring each other as they begin to feel lost in their trauma's, Cloud constantly staring at Tifa, Cloud's reaction to Tifa in a bikini with her music in the background, Cloud confirming mutual feelings on the Gondola, Cloud holding Tifa's hand during the NPTK performance, foreshadowing of the Lifestream sequence, references to the flower on Tifa's doorstep, their connection, extremely well crafted body and facial animation showing desire between the two or them, cinematography and camera work showing Cloud POV focusing on Tifa on multiple occasions, literally seeking her out in a crowd. I could go on and on, their whole arc in Rebirth is basically 'Romantic Tropes 101: A Guide to Crafting a Romance in Media' you can reference umpteen amout of films and literature when it comes to the beats of the romantic storycrafting in this game between these two.

3.3 - Cloud and Aerith themselves
As I mentioned above, Cloud does love Aerith (in my view, platonically), at least you might figure he does by the end of the game, and we know for certain Aerith at least likes Cloud (at minimum loves in a platonic sense) but she isn't sure if this is romantic or platonic, and unfortunately for her she never gets the chance to find out. They have some really nice moments in the game that is for sure, to say they get absolutely nothing would be a lie, or you've just skipped a lot of Aerith stuff on purpose. But here's the kicker.. in comparison to what we see from Cloud and Tifa, is there anything that Cloud and Aerith does in the game that could be considered extremely out of the ordinary for two people who love each other very much, just not romantically? Because I would argue kissing somebody is a sign of romantic love where as holding somebody's hand (fingers or not) might indicate there is something there but there is enough ambiguity to say well.. it's not a kiss so where does that leave it, context is key after all. I've mentioned above that actually Cloud can be quite abrasive towards Aerith at times, especially when she becomes overtly friendly or flirty (Costa del Sol for example), she also has to grab him constantly against his will as he's not so fortcoming (Grabbing his arm on the Gondola, where he even questions 'Aerith?'), and they never seem to be in step with each other in this regard. Now you can argue that is her personality and that is fine, but consider the initial Gold Saucer date when they attempt to go on the Skywheel for example. Both Aerith and Yuffie immediately grab Cloud's arm forcefully and try to drag him forward onto the wheel where it quickly cuts to it shutting down, in comparison to Tifa who carefully holds his hand and checks to make sure Cloud doesn't want to back out of it before proceeding forward where they are in lock step with each other, where the camera lingers a moment longer on the two of them walking forward before cutting to the Skywheel cutting forward. There's a lot more I can say here but this post is already extremely long.. the only other thing I will say is consider the Church confession and the S5 date.. leaving the Zack parallels out of this as i'll mention him in a minute, consider that the S5 date went horribly wrong from all angles, and consider that whilst Aerith was confessing she liked Cloud in the Church but wasn't sure what kind of like that is, Cloud hasn't once reciprocated any romantic intent towards Aerith throughout the entire game, he hasn't kissed her, hasn't affirmed any mutual feelings, hasn't once encouraged her or led her on to be romantic in any way. Hell even at the end after everything has happened all they have is some friendly banter between themselves, zero romantic confessions or physical contact. I'm also not gonna get into the romantisation of what heppsn at the end because quite frankly it's stupid. Please I welcome anyone to correct me with evidence if I'm wrong on this. Instead what we do get at the Church is there is a possibility for Cloud to even call Aerith specifically a friend (in the Japanese dub) and regardless of what Cloud says Aerith gets her closure by confirming that she knows where her and Cloud stand now.

3.4 - Zack
Some will say there is a lack of Zack and Aerith moments in this game but I don't see that at all, there's plenty enough for a big pay off in Part 3. I'm not going to get into this complete because I made a post a few pages back about Zack and Aerith. Suffice to say in the game Aerith herself confirms she still has feelings for Zack, she herself even shows throughout the game she is conflicted about her feelings for Zack and what could be potentially something she feels for Cloud. Zack's sequences also show him totally devoted to Aerith, they touch hands through the lifestream, they look up at the same sky as the scene cuts to Aerith from Zack, Aerith helps Zack out at the end multiple times and Zack ends up in a church with flowers blooming talking about reuniting again. Like do we honestly think they would reintroduce Zack only for Aerith to cast him aside for Cloud immediately? That they'd show us Zack getting his heart trampled on for some reason? That Cloud would remember who Zack is and how in love he is with Aerith only for him to immediately pursue her? It's a crazy notion and one the writers won't indulge, they aren't writing a Netflix high school drama here.

There is so much more I can say on each point, but I'm going to wrap this up because it's already an extremely long post and I imagine people rolling their eyes when they see posts this long. Suffice to say as i've mentioned many many times before, the time to push for Cloud and Aerith endgame was from the very beginning of Remake when they were first writing this whole Retrilogy, because you could write a compelling Cloud and Aerith romance into the game without having to assasinate your characters and change and belittle huge parts of the story that has existed since 1997 that way. That never happened however, and maybe you could make the argument that okay, Rebirth is now the time to solidify that Cloud and Aerith endgame because this is their moment to shine, as it was in OG, we haven't gone too far down the rabbit hole in Remake that we can't rescue this.. instead they decided to double down, make Cloud and Tifa kiss, show Zack caressing Aerith's cheek and crying over her in the actual opening scene and everything else i've described above. Now we are 2 games into a trilogy and we already know a lot of the things that happen between Cloud and Tifa in this next part. Everything they have created so far now means that for Cloud and Aerith to be endgame in part 3 the devs would have to trample all over the likes of Cloud, Tifa, Zack and Aerith as characters, but also pull out threads, rewrite and basically besmirch the very story they've carefully crafted up to this point. This could have all been avoided had they planned for it since Remake, but they clearly haven't and now they've basically cornered themselves on the direction they can go with this, which is Cloud and Tifa and Zack and Aerith. Cloud and Aerith romantic endgame at this point would be changing the game and it's characters so drastically it might as well not be the third part of the Retrilogy, hell it might as well not be Final Fantasy VII at all, but some kind of canon AU project to please a certain subsection of fans.

It's hard to doom when you focus on every character in the game. The difference in attitudes and animations that cost more time and money to add to a game. By looking at the game at a whole understanding that this is part 2 of a story, the middle part where mystery's aren't solved and conflict is introduced. Characters are written for roles in a story then given stuff throughout the story to make their roles make sense in the narrative. For people worrying about Zerith, characters are also given goals. Zacks goal is to reunite with an awake Aerith and Cloud and to reunite back into the world. But we already know a character who's role is to fix Cloud who has been given all the build up for that. Clouds goal isn't to reunite with Aerith his is focused on stopping Sephiroth he's not even aware Aerith is dead yet. So why didn't Zack and Aerith reunite at the end of the game is a question I see a lot getting asked. Since she appeared for Cloud against Sephiroth but not Zack. Apart from making the ending have two different tones and making a death not Matter. Honestly to new players it wouldn't matter as much. To people who haven't played crisis core it wouldn't matter as much. Also what arc does that leave Zack in part 3 we know he's alive or dead but he's also an important part regardless same as Aerith. If they showed a reunion between them you've wasted your conclusion in the middle. Instead Zacks arc in this game made you feel so bad for him pity for him, but most importantly route for him you want to see this optimistic character achieve his goals and similarly with Aerith now having conflicted feelings and mistakes information from Marlene potentially there's some conflict and intrigue on what a reunion between these characters will be like. Essentially now the reunion between Zack and Aerith has more importance and more mystery than before. So in part 3 the reunion won't just be impactful for crisis core players. OG players but also new players who have been introduced to Zack and how much he cares for Aerith.

 

[CldS7]

Let's hope for that atleast.

Also, let me say thank you to everyone here, this is a much more friendly space than other places I've had these discussions, thank you all for making me feel welcome here.

if the ending will be bad, it won't be because of Cloti or Clerith lol. It'll be because the ending will be a mess instead lmao