SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[nars305]

Is it completely absurd to wonder if Part 3 will include AC?

 

[LNK]

Thinking about it now, it would kinda make sense that the Ultimania focuses slightly more on Aerith, considering her fate and her date was kinda more vague whereas Tifa’s basically had the same conclusion in both cases (could be remembering, didn't look at the low affection dates are much as the high affection). Just my interpretation anyways, we are still just getting snippets and we still got one more part to go.

I agree with this. She's also on the cover

 

[GamerSkull]

Is it completely absurd to wonder if Part 3 will include AC?

Too much to include AC, best thing to hope for is maybe a post-AC scene but they have quite a bit to put into Part 3 that I doubt they’ll be able to fit AC in.

 

[LNK]

This ultimania confirmed what I feared: the magical trio doesn't have the balls, the courage or the will to tell 'fans' that one thing is canon and the other isn't.
This fake respectability and wanting to make everyone happy has started to get boring.

How can you still think this, when in Re trilogy they're leaning even more into CT & ZA in regards to the romantic stuff? Like seriously. They are letting their story speak for itself, which is what they've done since the beginning. They don't need to tell a really small percentage of the fanbase what is/isn't canon. That small percentage of fans need get real, and realize relations that people have in life, aren't always so black and white.

 

[Stiggie]

How can you still think this, when in Re trilogy they're leaning even more into CT & ZA in regards to the romantic stuff? Like seriously. They are letting their story speak for itself, which is what they've done since the beginning. They don't need to tell a really small percentage of the fanbase what is/isn't canon. That small percentage of fans need get real, and realize relations that people have in life, aren't always so black and white.

Yeah, the developers aren't reading thelifestream or twitter and writing books as "reply comments" XD

 

[overheat28]

Not sure why you expected this Ultimania to give you much for Zack in the first place when it's supposed to be about Rebirth? Like we all know he didn't play a super major role in this game yet.

From the little i've seen from the Ultimania, it does sort of imply that Zack has some sort of power over the multiple worlds, as he is the one that ends up splitting at least some of them up with his decisions, but we still have to see how he ends up being used in the third game.

I don't think you need to have any real worries here about him just being some kind of pointless fodder for CA. There's 0% chance they are going that route.

Well, not that I would disagree entirely. It's true that Zack's role is yet to be fleshed out fully so it's ok he's not mentioned in the Ultimania much.

But the fodder for CA thing is not impossible. They've already sort of done it in the game. The ultimania states that Aerith's GS date was a "confession" to Cloud. I know there were all sorts of arguments before how she was just seeing Zack in Cloud. But seems pretty clear cut to me that she's expressed a desire to move on (whether Cloud reciprocates is another thing entirely).

Maybe this is how angst works in stories like this, I don't know. But reconciling her feelings for Cloud when she presumably meets back up with Zack is going to be sticky and we can't write it off as delusion on her part anymore. All this means is that Zack might be shortchanged once again as a rebound for a rebound while being dead (bloody hell).

Idk, to me if Aerith wants to have conflicting feelings then just let Zack go and she is free to koibito away for blondie. Zack deserves better than being a punching bag even by implication.

There are also darker implications which I don't want to say fully. All I will say is that if this is not resolved properly, then Aerith keeping Zack conscious in the lifestream is very icky. Striking resemblance to what hardcore CAs wanted for Zack for years, in fact.

 

[GamerSkull]

I definitely think it’s just being used as angst. Guess we’ll see.

Especially since Aerith isn’t even sure if she likes Cloud or LIKES him.

Although I must say, the devs really need to put all these questions to bed once and for all. It’s been 30 years, hopefully they’re alright with explicit confirmation now.

 

[LNK]

Too much to include AC, best thing to hope for is maybe a post-AC scene but they have quite a bit to put into Part 3 that I doubt they’ll be able to fit AC in.

Or having a post DoC scene would be good for the same reason. It'd fit with having red's 500 year later scene from the OG

 

[Maidenofwar]

Zack certainly doesn't blame Aerith at all because he's fully adult enough to realise life happens and that's part of what endeared me to him more in Rebirth, that relationships are complicated and you can express an interest in more than one person in your life without being some kind of monster.

 

[GamerSkull]

Zack certainly doesn't blame Aerith at all because he's fully adult enough to realise life happens and that's part of what endeared me to him more in Rebirth, that relationships are complicated and you can express an interest in more than one person in your life without being some kind of monster.

Which is why I think it proves how much he loves Aerith and why he will most certainly get to have his reunion with her, with mutual affirmation.

 

[GamerSkull]

Or having a post DoC scene would be good for the same reason. It'd fit with having red's 500 year later scene from the OG

Maybe they could do a mid-credits scene of post-Dirge. And then end credits could be the typical Red XIII scene.

 

[abzy1200]

This is unrelated to the topics being discussed right now, so I'm sorry in advance, but I just feel the need to talk about it since I saw a post about it on my Twitter timeline.

When will the notion that Tifa was lying to Cloud/gaslighting him ever fade away?

It's an even worse argument nowadays though, because if anything, the only person lying/lying by omission in the re;trilogy is Aerith. Forgive me if I get this wrong, but didn't Aerith know she was going to die during Remake? That Cloud is living a lie? That Cloud will be manipulated into giving Sephiroth planet destroying materia? and all she left were ominous, vague warnings? That's probably something you should tell a trusted adult but she only ever told Red XIII and MARLENE, a four year old girl over the people who would actually benefit from this information.

Not to mention Aerith herself is (I think) in cahoots with Tifa about Cloud's mental state and how Tifa's recollection of the Nibelheim incident is different, that Cloud wasn't present. So Aerith is also technically "lying by omission" in the exact same way Tifa is supposedly "lying by omission" to Cloud during the re;trilogy.

and it paints Aerith in an even worse light when you add that on top of the fact that she showed visions to a four year old girl as opposed to the guy who actually needs to hear about his delusions, supposedly. According to Cleriths, Tifa is some kind of "bitch" who doesn't deserve or isn't suited to Cloud for not telling him about his incorrect memories when Tifa herself didn't know the full truth. I mean, if someone from my past showed up with a different recollection of a past traumatic experience I had in which that person was not present, but were claiming they were and retelling the incident with scary levels of accuracy, I would start doubting myself as well.

Aerith is guilty of everything Cleriths accuse Tifa of in regards to "lying" and then some. So if Tifa doesn't deserve Cloud because she was "lying" to him, then Aerith definitely doesn't.

This kind of miscommunication and angst is a huge part of the emotional conflict surrounding the sub-plot of ff7; Clouds identity, and it has to be this way for the story to be compelling, so that you can be invested in it, because bare in mind, the player is ALSO supposed to be in the dark about the truth. Cloud is an unreliable narrator, after all.

That's why it's not fair to judge either woman for "lying" to Cloud, and why neither are "lying bitches" . Tifa doesn't withhold her own recollection from Cloud in bad faith like Cleriths claim she does, and Aerith doesn't withhold information in bad faith either.

Those are my thoughts on this tired, entirely self-defeating argument, so I'm sorry if this felt more like a rant than a "debunking".

and also, If you feel like any of this was inaccurate, please feel free correct me or take me up on it.

Maybe this is how angst works in stories like this, I don't know. But reconciling her feelings for Cloud when she presumably meets back up with Zack is going to be sticky and we can't write it off as delusion on her part anymore. All this means is that Zack might be shortchanged once again as a rebound for a rebound while being dead (bloody hell).

Use their own arguments against them, if Cloud is allowed to love two women equally that he's "conflicted" between (not btw), then Aerith is also allowed to love two men equally that she's "conflicted" between.

Eh, I don't really know about my own argument that I've just made, but I'm putting it out there anyways.

Or having a post DoC scene would be good for the same reason. It'd fit with having red's 500 year later scene from the OG

I think I'd much prefer this to be honest. We already have some idea as to what happened after Advent Children, but, forgive me if I'm wrong, the same is not true for Dirge of Cerberus.

I think maybe a short epilogue for both might be appreciated? Might feel a bit unnecessary but it would be nice.

 

[Hellenic]

Interesting that for most CTs, you see them ship Zack with Aerith… and there isn’t much variation really, not from my understanding, though someone correct me if I’m wrong here.

I ship CT, but don't necessarily ship ZA. I do want ZA to get their proper ending, but i'm not really invested in the pairing itself.

 

[GamerSkull]

This is unrelated to the topics being discussed right now, so I'm sorry in advance, but I just feel the need to talk about it since I saw a post about it on my Twitter timeline.

When will the notion that Tifa was lying to Cloud/gaslighting him ever fade away?

It's an even worse argument nowadays though, because if anything, the only person lying/lying by omission in the re;trilogy is Aerith. Forgive me if I get this wrong, but didn't Aerith know she was going to die during Remake? That Cloud is living a lie? That Cloud will be manipulated into giving Sephiroth planet destroying materia? and all she left were ominous, vague warnings? That's probably something you should tell a trusted adult but she only ever told Red XIII and MARLENE, a four year old girl over the people who would actually benefit from this information.

Not to mention Aerith herself is (I think) in cahoots with Tifa about Cloud's mental state and how Tifa's recollection of the Nibelheim incident is different, that Cloud wasn't present. So Aerith is also technically "lying by omission" in the exact same way Tifa is supposedly "lying by omission" to Cloud during the re;trilogy.

and it paints Aerith in an even worse light when you add that on top of the fact that she showed visions to a four year old girl as opposed to the guy who actually needs to hear about his delusions, supposedly. According to Cleriths, Tifa is some kind of "bitch" who doesn't deserve or isn't suited to Cloud for not telling him about his incorrect memories when Tifa herself didn't know the full truth. I mean, if someone from my past showed up with a different recollection of a past traumatic experience I had in which that person was not present, but were claiming they were and retelling the incident with scary levels of accuracy, I would start doubting myself as well.

Aerith is guilty of everything Cleriths accuse Tifa of in regards to "lying" and then some. So if Tifa doesn't deserve Cloud because she was "lying" to him, then Aerith definitely doesn't.

This kind of miscommunication and angst is a huge part of the emotional conflict surrounding the sub-plot of ff7; Clouds identity, and it has to be this way for the story to be compelling, so that you can be invested in it, because bare in mind, the player is ALSO supposed to be in the dark about the truth. Cloud is an unreliable narrator, after all.

That's why it's not fair to judge either woman for "lying" to Cloud, and why neither are "lying bitches" . Tifa doesn't withhold her own recollection from Cloud in bad faith like Cleriths claim she does, and Aerith doesn't withhold information in bad faith either.

Those are my thoughts on this tired, entirely self-defeating argument, so I'm sorry if this felt more like a rant than a "debunking".

and also, If you feel like any of this was inaccurate, please feel free correct me or take me up on it.

Use their own arguments against them, if Cloud is allowed to love two women equally that he's "conflicted" between (not btw), then Aerith is also allowed to love two men equally that she's "conflicted" between.

Eh, I don't really know about my own argument that I've just made, but I'm putting it out there anyways.


I think I'd much prefer this to be honest. We already have some idea as to what happened after Advent Children, but, forgive me if I'm wrong, the same is not true for Dirge of Cerberus.

I think maybe a short epilogue for both might be appreciated? Might feel a bit unnecessary but it would be nice.

Yeah, unfortunately, it’s less to do with actually understanding either character and more to do with mudslinging over preferences and what is canon.

For me the LTD is done, the answer has been clear since 1997. I’m tired of seeing the absolute worst takes from each side now and definitely think people are

1) Taking mistranslated lines at face value.
2) viewing certain characters in bad faith despite what has been presented

All of this shows a complete inability to comprehend the actual story being presented.

Stories have twists and turns, and often things are not black and white. But some of the extreme shippers, on both sides mind you, view it through that lens. If I may be so bold, I would posit that these people aren’t actually fans of FF7 if they see these characters the way they do.

 

[Hellenic]

Yeah, this reminds me of the Tifa and Johnny one.

Hopefully people don't still try to force feed this one, considering Tifa herself basically friendzoned Johnny in Rebirth itself.

 

[GamerSkull]

Hopefully people don't still try to force feed this one, considering Tifa herself basically friendzoned Johnny in Rebirth itself.

A relationship between them has never been implied. Other than Johnny being a simp.

 

[Hellenic]

Is it completely absurd to wonder if Part 3 will include AC?

I can definitely see them setting up Case of Tifa or AC at the end, but doubt it would be anything more than that. Speaking of, i hope we actually see Denzel earlier like during our return to Midgar.

 

[Hix]

Well, not that I would disagree entirely. It's true that Zack's role is yet to be fleshed out fully so it's ok he's not mentioned in the Ultimania much.

But the fodder for CA thing is not impossible. They've already sort of done it in the game. The ultimania states that Aerith's GS date was a "confession" to Cloud. I know there were all sorts of arguments before how she was just seeing Zack in Cloud. But seems pretty clear cut to me that she's expressed a desire to move on (whether Cloud reciprocates is another thing entirely).

Maybe this is how angst works in stories like this, I don't know. But reconciling her feelings for Cloud when she presumably meets back up with Zack is going to be sticky and we can't write it off as delusion on her part anymore. All this means is that Zack might be shortchanged once again as a rebound for a rebound while being dead (bloody hell).

Idk, to me if Aerith wants to have conflicting feelings then just let Zack go and she is free to koibito away for blondie. Zack deserves better than being a punching bag even by implication.

There are also darker implications which I don't want to say fully. All I will say is that if this is not resolved properly, then Aerith keeping Zack conscious in the lifestream is very icky. Striking resemblance to what hardcore CAs wanted for Zack for years, in fact.

If anything, Rebirth has given Zerith a huge shot in the arm.

For all the talk of confessions, unambiguous feelings and verbal expressions of romance, only Aerith in the entire game says outright that she loves someone - Zack, when asked by Cloud in Gongaga - this is of course, immediately after she's caught finding her way to his house, as soon as they arrive, to enquire about him.

The other side of the coin, when it comes to the Gold Saucer dates being unattached to events as they play out, is that one can suggest the CA date a "what-if" that never plays out - as opposed to the CT kiss which indeed plays out, as far as confirming mutual feelings, under the Highwind.

Further, the Dream Date Aerith is now proven not even to be the same Aerith. So in fact, our Aerith did not do much more with Cloud than hang out during the course of the game, as friends do, and certainly did not confess to him.

Meanwhile, Zack certainly has not and would not give up on Aerith. Even in Maiden, Clerith fanfiction, he never gives up on Aerith. He believes in himself and his relationship with her. As the DMW broke around him, his final dying thoughts were Aerith even despite the finality of the 89th letter. He loves her.

That love was not lightning in a bottle, but a mutual feeling that has persisted through death, across dimensions and is renewed each day Aerith consciously wears pink and ties his ribbon in her hair. It's not so fickle as to change from week to week, such as in the two short weeks she knows Cloud.

By Advent Children they are together again. The Devs have been building to showing us how, indeed, they could not open Pandora's box early or Aerith would get no closure with Cloud at all. I guarantee you, without a single doubt, we'll be smiling come part 3.

 

[nars305]

I definitely think it’s just being used as angst. Guess we’ll see.

Especially since Aerith isn’t even sure if she likes Cloud or LIKES him.

Although I must say, the devs really need to put all these questions to bed once and for all. It’s been 30 years, hopefully they’re alright with explicit confirmation now.

As far as Aerith’s feelings go, or whatever she may have going on with Cloud, they just seem to muddy things. Not only that, but they maintain that she will still be dead in the end.

If I think about it from Nomura’s original angle (players may decide they like a certain character, so he made the option to pursue who you want) it just makes things convuluted for Remake specifically. Because now we have a game that is fleshing out relationships and feelings AND all characters are present in the story “physically”.

It’s not just a matter of Aerith’s feelings. It’s Cloud’s, Zack’s, and Tifa’s. We play the game with two girls becoming really close who may like the same guy. Then we have a guy who died trying to get to a girl, only to come to find she has moved on *TO THE GUY HE DIED FOR AND IS HIS GOOD FRIEND? just makes it messy. I guess it’s not like it’s not realistic, but I don’t know, is that what they’re going for? Hard to see that when they are hammering CT and ZA otherwise.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah, the mere fact that Zerith has been highlighted the way it has in Rebirth essentially tells me all I need to know.

Yeah, we’ll get some angst along the way but that will make the reunion all the more sweeter.

 

[abzy1200]

I ship CT, but don't necessarily ship ZA. I do want ZA to get their proper ending, but i'm not really invested in the pairing itself.

I'm kinda the same, Cloti is the only ship I really care about when it comes to this game, but Zerith was also one of my favourite parts about Crisis core, so I am rooting for them as well, I'm just not quite as vocal about it.

For me the LTD is done, the answer has been clear since 1997. I’m tired of seeing the absolute worst takes from each side now and definitely think people are

Stories have twists and turns, and often things are not black and white. But some of the extreme shippers, on both sides mind you, view it through that lens. If I may be so bold, I would posit that these people aren’t actually fans of FF7 if they see these characters the way they do.

I think it honestly could just be fatigue from arguing, on both sides. The toxicity it has sparked 100% has had it's influence on the way people view these characters.

I think that the people who spread these hateful takes are sort of like Montagues and Capulets from Romeo and Juliet, they forgot why they were fighting but refuse to reconcile because of lingering resentment, but that only spirals into more bad takes and toxicity.

By Advent Children they are together again. The Devs have been building to showing us how, indeed, they could not open Pandora's box early or Aerith would get no closure with Cloud at all. I guarantee you, without a single doubt, we'll be smiling come part 3.

Maybe this is how angst works in stories like this, I don't know. But reconciling her feelings for Cloud when she presumably meets back up with Zack is going to be sticky and we can't write it off as delusion on her part anymore. All this means is that Zack might be shortchanged once again as a rebound for a rebound while being dead (bloody hell).

Idk, to me if Aerith wants to have conflicting feelings then just let Zack go and she is free to koibito away for blondie. Zack deserves better than being a punching bag even by implication.

There are also darker implications which I don't want to say fully. All I will say is that if this is not resolved properly, then Aerith keeping Zack conscious in the lifestream is very icky. Striking resemblance to what hardcore CAs wanted for Zack for years, in fact.

Also, I don't really know if this is relevant or if an argument can be made from it, but the devs chose to give the title "Reunion" (a title I think a lot of us were expecting to be reserved for the third part of the Re;trilogy) to a game where Zack is front and centre, the protagonist. Zack then spends the entirety of Rebirth trying to help Aerith(and Cloud), to "reunite" with her.

 

[LNK]

I think I'd much prefer this to be honest. We already have some idea as to what happened after Advent Children, but, forgive me if I'm wrong, the same is not true for Dirge of Cerberus.

I think maybe a short epilogue for both might be appreciated? Might feel a bit unnecessary but it would be nice.

Yeah, I think epilogues for ALL the characters would be a really good way to go. Nothing will ever be good enough for the extreme shippers though. The devs should just continue telling their story

 

[Hellenic]

Well, not that I would disagree entirely. It's true that Zack's role is yet to be fleshed out fully so it's ok he's not mentioned in the Ultimania much.

But the fodder for CA thing is not impossible. They've already sort of done it in the game. The ultimania states that Aerith's GS date was a "confession" to Cloud. I know there were all sorts of arguments before how she was just seeing Zack in Cloud. But seems pretty clear cut to me that she's expressed a desire to move on (whether Cloud reciprocates is another thing entirely).

Maybe this is how angst works in stories like this, I don't know. But reconciling her feelings for Cloud when she presumably meets back up with Zack is going to be sticky and we can't write it off as delusion on her part anymore. All this means is that Zack might be shortchanged once again as a rebound for a rebound while being dead (bloody hell).

Idk, to me if Aerith wants to have conflicting feelings then just let Zack go and she is free to koibito away for blondie. Zack deserves better than being a punching bag even by implication.

There are also darker implications which I don't want to say fully. All I will say is that if this is not resolved properly, then Aerith keeping Zack conscious in the lifestream is very icky. Striking resemblance to what hardcore CAs wanted for Zack for years, in fact.

She is trying to move on from Zack, but she clearly isn't able to and we get our clear conclusion in the dream date that Aerith herself wasn't sure what kinda like she ultimately felt towards Cloud, but she factually can't get over Zack and they will play into that in the next game.

 

[c.lupara]

How can you still think this, when in Re trilogy they're leaning even more into CT & ZA in regards to the romantic stuff? Like seriously. They are letting their story speak for itself, which is what they've done since the beginning. They don't need to tell a really small percentage of the fanbase what is/isn't canon. That small percentage of fans need get real, and realize relations that people have in life, aren't always so black and white.

I agree. this morning, when I wrote that comment, I was a bit "angry" because I had read some ultimania stuff; obviously wrong translation leads to a wrong interpretation. Even the appointments at the GS are not that they are not "canon" but they are simply not "canon" in the story while they are "canon" for the way in which all the characters relate to this event.

 

[Hellenic]

A relationship between them has never been implied. Other than Johnny being a simp.

Exactly. Nonetheless people were shipping that just to get Tifa away from the CT ship.