SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[imach0c0]

i don't understand why the extremists just lie. It aint gonna change the next game or the actual scene so whats the point?

Why was Yuna's arigatou interpreted as "I love you" but Aerith's arigatou was interpreted as "Thank you" ? Is it in context to Aerith being uncertain?

 

[SilverSisu]

Guys help im getting told Aeriths thank you is i love you in Japanese what level of copium is this now
This is the kinda stuff people are saying
"About the kiss scene, the devs seemingly chose to depict Cloud and Tifa's relationship as more physical because it's the only way they can express their affection at that point. They still have a lot of work to do to sort things out. On the other end, Aerith and Cloud hold hands the way only very close or married couples do in Japan, because the devs wanted to depict their bound as more emotional. Both girls represent very different archetypes of lovers, so it's only natural the relationships don't grow the same way but that doesn't mean one is more legit than the other. And for the "like" dialogue, Aerith is a lot clearer in Japanese but some of the subtlety is lost in translation. She uses two different words to say like, one being more platonic and the other more romantic and she implies very strongly she leans more on the second. When she says "thank you" later on, Cloud is totally taken off guard 'cause saying thank you in that context could be understood as "I love you". The interesting thing is FFX localisation team chose back in the day to translate the same thank you Yuna gave to Tidus as an I love you"

The only thing these Cleriths got right was that fingerlock thing but it doesn't matter in the big picture because Cloud is just a rebound guy. In chapter 14 Aerith realizes that Cloud is not a Zack 2.0 and friendzones him.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

If i'm being honest, i wish they just completely detached Aerith from being any sort of romantic interest for Cloud and just let her character focus on other things. Like you said, this stuff just feels like some pointless baiting for Cleriths and i would've much preferred they explored her character more in other fields.

Aerith having feelings for Cloud has always been part of the story. So I'm fine with that but they really focused on it a bit too much and imo in a way that is just very confusing. I would have loved to see her talk more of her freedom fear and hesitation of becoming Cetra like in OG. In OG she really has deep moments that aren't in ReTrilogy and it makes me wonder why.

It's all very confusing because so is she. She simply doesn't know. She's dying, but she doesn't want to. Zack is gone and she wants him back. She finds a new family, but she doesn't really know what it's like to have one. I think the devs just show that she's a lonely girl who doesn't know anything about the world. A world she's destined to save. That's the tragedy and irony of the situation. That's why the sky scared her, and why she was comfortable under her Midgar pizza. She just wants to live her life with the people she loves.

In the end it's confusing because that's what they want to do with this love. They know there are Clerith fans. Maybe you'd be quite willing to accept total rejection. But not everyone is. It's not the best solution, but it's the one they've found to keep everyone happy. Yes, this couple will never be canon, but it's nevertheless complex and not devoid of deep feelings. "They're not friends. But they're not lovers"

I have to agree with this. Both are probably an amalgamation like dreams tend to be. Because if we compare them to regular Aerith walking around with them it doesn't match up. It could be a representation of her feelings and thoughts and I like that line "It's confusing because so is she".

Maybe it is that we are just missing pieces or maybe Cloud's dreams are just all messed up and she is also just as weird in them because he doesn't get what she is trying to tell him. Or maybe the devs wanted a metaphor for how deep and complicated the Clerith bond is.

I don't know maybe these scenes are genius art and going over my head because I overanalyze lol.

It's not that I'd want to see her get rejected but I can live with it if it makes things clearer this just leads people on a bit. But I like your explanation. I just hope we do get an explanation because especially the dream date takes so much space of Aerith's arc that I feel it should be relevant in a way that makes sense for her character.

 

[nars305]

I see that the new thing to talk about is Tifa getting replaced in the LS sequence.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Is Cloud koibito and Zack koibito on different levels?

Cause I thought ZA koibito is ren'nai (mutual) and CA is koi (one-sided from Aerith)

Yes because koi is like the affection one feels when they fall for someone the first time like the initial attraction and longing. It can be one sided. While rennai would be the love that deepens and wants a stable lasting relationship. It's mutual and like when you've been together for a bit. So the next stage up.

And she was literally in a relationship with Zack.

 

[GamerSkull]

I see that the new thing to talk about is Tifa getting replaced in the LS sequence.

Doubt it. But I suppose they can dream…

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

i don't understand why the extremists just lie. It aint gonna change the next game or the actual scene so whats the point?

The thing is. I don't know if they're lying or just in such denial they actually believe it. I just wonder what the Japanese speaking CA fans think of all this because one glance and these arguments fall apart.

It makes it so difficult also to talk about what is actually happening with Aerith.

 

[imach0c0]

Aerith having feelings for Cloud has always been part of the story. So I'm fine with that but they really focused on it a bit too much and imo in a way that is just very confusing. I would have loved to see her talk more of her freedom fear and hesitation of becoming Cetra like in OG. In OG she really has deep moments that aren't in ReTrilogy and it makes me wonder why.


I have to agree with this. Both are probably an amalgamation like dreams tend to be. Because if we compare them to regular Aerith walking around with them it doesn't match up. It could be a representation of her feelings and thoughts and I like that line "It's confusing because so is she".

Maybe it is that we are just missing pieces or maybe Cloud's dreams are just all messed up and she is also just as weird in them because he doesn't get what she is trying to tell him. Or maybe the devs wanted a metaphor for how deep and complicated the Clerith bond is.

I don't know maybe these scenes are genius art and going over my head because I overanalyze lol.

It's not that I'd want to see her get rejected but I can live with it if it makes things clearer this just leads people on a bit. But I like your explanation. I just hope we do get an explanation because especially the dream date takes so much space of Aerith's arc that I feel it should be relevant in a way that makes sense for her character.

If they are to address Aerith's feelings in Part 3, do you think there will still be an air of ambiguity or do you think we will get the clear picture of where she stands for both Cloud and Zack? I assume this would need to be discussed between ZA since Marlene told Zack that Aerith has feelings for Cloud.

What is a good way to address and resolve this in part 3 without be messy?

Also, throughout Remake and Rebirth, did you detect Cloud having any romantic feelings towards Aerith?

 

[SilverSisu]

i don't understand why the extremists just lie. It aint gonna change the next game or the actual scene so whats the point?

They are on full copium mode.

 

[null]

I think some people are letting their biases get in the way. Bringing Zack back, reminding us how devoted he is to Aerith, even the fact that he’d put her happiness before his… all lead me to believe we’re getting a Zerith ending.

It’s kind of a rule of writing almost. I know there is a term for it. Plus, Kitase has repeatedly said he wants a happy ending for these characters, so Zack isn’t gonna be jilted in the end. Neither will Tifa tbh. These are two character in which a romantic resolution is kinda required for them to be happy, based on what they’ve been doing in these past few games.

Just a word of caution - be careful connecting the dots before the story is finished. It's so easy to get burned. Even if it's super obvious, and the writers keep emphasizing the dots, and logically it couldn't turn out any other way. Every prediction can be annihilated with the stroke of a pen... or the absence thereof.

Disclaimer: I am highly biased against dead people having living people things like romantic resolutions and happiness. Regardless of them being written that way whether I like it or not.

 

[eleamaya]

Why was Yuna's arigatou interpreted as "I love you" but Aerith's arigatou was interpreted as "Thank you" ? Is it in context to Aerith being uncertain?

Because they already kiss in the middle perhaps? JP people hardly say "ai shiteru" because how strong the word is, unless you're really really sure you're in long lasting relationship. So it's like Yuna is very grateful to meet and know Tidus in her life despite short that he has to go. And to JP people, it's more sincere & impactul rather than a selfish "suki da" or "I love you". And I think Aerith is also genuinely grateful for meeting Cloud.

Is Cloud koibito and Zack koibito on different levels?

Cause I thought ZA koibito is ren'nai (mutual) and CA is koi (one-sided from Aerith)

I explained it here

 

[GamerSkull]

Just a word of caution - be careful connecting the dots before the story is finished. It's so easy to get burned. Even if it's super obvious, and the writers keep emphasizing the dots, and logically it couldn't turn out any other way. Every prediction can be annihilated with the stroke of a pen... or the absence thereof.

Disclaimer: I am highly biased against dead people having living people things like romantic resolutions and happiness. Regardless of them being written that way whether I like it or not.

I suppose that’s true. I guess I should keep my expectations low.

All of this has been rather draining, and I hope that it will be resolved with Part 3 but you never know.

 

[eleamaya]

I'm a bit disappointed that Nojima's interview section on Rebirth Ultimania doesnt explain or mention the dream date at all. It's really confusing. And I want to be confirmed.

 

[Legend45]

I don't think they talk about the Gongaga section either i really wanted a more inner monologe from Cloud to get what he was thinking.

 

[imach0c0]

I'm a bit disappointed that Nojima's interview section on Rebirth Ultimania doesnt explain or mention the dream date at all. It's really confusing. And I want to be confirmed.

Not sure if you discussed it in the forum here but how did you interpret that scene? Do you think the Zack references were deliberate?

 

[eleamaya]

Not sure if you discussed it in the forum here but how did you interpret that scene? Do you think the Zack references were deliberate?

I'm skeptical, so even though I hope it's true since I'm Zerith bias, I also try to think lesser... That maybe it's just a storytelling about different worlds/Stamp. That's why skipping Zack is also skipping C/A dream date. Plus Aerith needs to transfer the white materia through Cloud.

I think the biggest reference is when Aerith take the flowers brooch. Just like she said "one date", "tanomoshii", "isshoni tai desu", and "kirei, hitomi" in chapter 8 Remake which later she admits in Gondola as seeing Zack in Cloud; she says "taisetsu na surune" or "I'll treasure this" referenced to Zack's giving her pink ribbon. She doesnt have to say that since Cloud doesnt give it to her, not even wanting to do since it's not his choice. So I guess she hopes Cloud did the same Zack do, and treasure it as a symbol of her feelings. So, by the universe against Cloud to do that although she has forever him to do, it tells her what they stand. He is not the one. She can't treasure the feelings for Cloud same as the feelings she have for Zack. It's different.

 

[nars305]

I suppose that’s true. I guess I should keep my expectations low.

All of this has been rather draining, and I hope that it will be resolved with Part 3 but you never know.

It is hard to keep expectations low. Going on a rant here.

Like for the lifestream sequence I have high expectations. It’s the scene I am most looking forward to and as much as I try to ignore stupid takes, the talk of people saying anyone can replace Tifa is just SO mind numbingly stupid.

I have to ask, even though I know the answer, what is even the point of wanting or theorizing this scene would be changed? Why can it not just be Tifa?

It’s also a stupid take because Rebirth sets up the lifestream sequence so much, from the very beginning of the game:

-Re-telling of Nibelheim accident
-Sephiroth plants the seed that Tifa is not real
-Argument
-Make up where they agree to talk, just them two, to figure it all out
-Gongaga Reactor, Sephiroth makes Cloud believe Tifa is not real
-TIFA IN THE LIFESTREAM, WHERE SHE RECALLS WHAT HAPPENED IN THE MEMORY THAT IS MOST IMPORTANT TO CLOUD
-Cloud opening up only to Tifa about his identity crisis
-Tifa reassuring him she’ll save him and he won’t degrade
-Return to Nibelheim, where Cloud has the most memory/identity lapses

It’s just so built up. I don’t understand how any one can think they would replace Tifa in the LS. If they do I honestly will wash my hands of FF7 and be so disappointed in the creators.

 

[Yoru]

I'm skeptical, so even though I hope it's true since I'm Zerith bias, I also try to think lesser... That maybe it's just a storytelling about different worlds/Stamp. That's why skipping Zack is also skipping C/A dream date. Plus Aerith needs to transfer the white materia through Cloud.

I think the biggest reference is when Aerith take the flowers brooch. Just like she said "one date", "tanomoshii", "isshoni tai desu", and "kirei, hitomi" in chapter 8 Remake which later she admits in Gondola as seeing Zack in Cloud; she says "taisetsu na surune" or "I'll treasure this" referenced to Zack's giving her pink ribbon. She doesnt have to say that since Cloud doesnt give it to her, not even wanting to do since it's not his choice. So I guess she hopes Cloud did the same Zack do, and treasure it as a symbol of her feelings. So, by the world rejecting Cloud to do that, it also tells her what he stands, or that they arent blessed to be together. He is not the one.

Aerith has such a tendency to refer to phrases she's already uttered in all Remake/Rebirth that I think it's not for nothing. At the end of Rebirth, she mainly uses phrases she's already uttered in Remake/Rebirth. As for the dream date, it's full of mimicry with Crisis Core, whether it's phrases or situations.

I'm beginning to believe more and more in the theory that the Lifestream is all memories, dreams and hope. And that's why her way of being seems so strange and why we find it so uncertain and ambiguous.

 

[imach0c0]

Aerith has such a tendency to refer to phrases she's already uttered in all Remake/Rebirth that I think it's not for nothing. At the end of Rebirth, she mainly uses phrases she's already uttered in Remake/Rebirth. As for the dream date, it's full of mimicry with Crisis Core, whether it's phrases or situations.

I'm beginning to believe more and more in the theory that the Lifestream is all memories, dreams and hope. And that's why her way of being seems so strange and why we find it so uncertain and ambiguous.

I interpreted that Aerith and Zack mimic each other's lines or actions is a symbolic way to show the bond between ZA and how they continue to live on through each other. (even if they are apart)

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I completely forgot that reading to be honest. I was thinking about those 3 he gave to Cloud at Gold saucer.

Let's talk about those then.

1. "Things are looking up so throw your caution to the wind. Put your trust in others and a last minute twist may pleasantly surprise you"

Cloud is an obvious loner just looking at him, meanwhile Reeve has done much more than glance his way in preparation for this op. A loner throwing caution to the wind by putting trust in others has increased odds of being pleasantly surprised, no? That's less divination and more just knowing the mark.

2. "Watch your belongings. Lucky color: black"

Who stole from the party again? Oh right it was Cait. What does Reeve know Cloud and company are hunting? Men in black robes/Sephiroth. Lucky color: black is like as not just an attention grabber, makes you sound like you've made an actual prediction.

3. "Seek and you are sure to find. But alas, you shall forever lose what you cherish most."

This one I won't poo on so much, and take note that Cait himself seems surprised and concerned after making it. It may be his only accurate prediction in the whole game.

All three readings were spot on.

I disagree, but one outta three ain't awful The other two are vague enough to slip past and tailored to the mark.

Am I Mike or Tom Servo then?

You feel like Servo to me.

The last actual plot variable in the entire game is Tifa's level of confidence under the highwind based on her Affection Value, and regardless they confirm mutual romantic feelings in that scene officially.

In a way UTH is a microcosm if this. You can change what the middle shows you, but the end results are always the same.

Regardless, it was said.

The most important thing.

Nomura likes "engagement." Nojima wasn't people to understand.

Fuse them into Nojimura so we can have both.

Yeah it doesn't make much sense where I'm standing either.

I'd say you're the sniper, I'm on spotter duty. We agree on the view, take the shot.

Some people just don't want to admit they got snookered in any way.

Tis easier to fool folk than to make them admit they've been fooled, even when the one who fooled them is themselves.

It makes things so much simpler.

Wouldn't it be nice.

I mean that's been the usual BS answer since '97 when we learned of the sealed up secret wish. "It's in the past" and all.

Ahhh of course, so nanoseconds are too long then.

Funny how Aerith who was deadwas never in the past. Only Tifa, standing right beside him. Time's funny like that sometimes.

Time is an illusion, after all. Once you realize this, it's easy to see that Tifa is Cloud's past. And present. And future. Tifa is always.

You just want to burn dumb people. It's okay, you can admit it.

I do so admit, lemme just hop over to 2fort and grab my Degreaser and Brigade Helm.

As always, no rush. Just put it at the top of the nameboard.

The household has been informed of my intentions.

Though meeting someone's edgelord navi based off of Sonic.exe would also be hilarious.

That sounds awful in a wonderful way indeed.

He could have been cool if he had any ability to do something with the eaten matter. Like Eat-Man.

He was useful for waste disposal But yeah Eat-Man remains top dog in this eating contest.

Feel free to watch the rest of our stuff too.

I always feel free

You will not be disappointed I don't think.

Your judgement is usually sound

She had a litter of six, at least, so yeah. All the kittens for everyone. Edge needs mousers.

Gotta protect that precious grain. Also I want one of them to be chubby with an unlikely ginger patch on its head, and Cloud to name it "Bro"

For me it's vibrating my throat to create a stereo effect as I talk.

Nice, that's a difficult technique for most. I'm still trying to figure out how I accomplish my best voice trick, which is voicing a character and his clone-turned-intelligent sword speaking in unison. People at the table flinch, it's great.

She likes to be way up high. She rides on my shoulder and arm like a parrot.

I've had cats like that. And a dachshund, oddly

I do. It's why I call myself Deus Admiral. Those were insults I repurposed.

Own it.

Blinky, Pinky and Clyde?

Bad Anon meetings just wouldn't be the same without Clyde after all.

In this case because there's no other word with a meaning as specific as canon, I feel we ought to be more precise with it than normal. Don't want another literally on our hands, after all.

I refuse to embrace the use of literally to mean figuratively. I'm a crotchety old man now and I will die on this hill forever. So again, I agree, I just wanna encourage folks to be clear with how they use all the words.

He's a handy narrative shorthand for "Cloud is a family man now." I'd actually like for there to be more for him to do. I guess Nojima agreed which is why he wrote Episode Denzel.

I wish Cloud and Tifa were training that kid. It's a dangerous world out there after all. Plus if he's trained world's best swordsman Cloud and world's best martial artist Tifa may end up fighting a bit like Zack, that'd be nice.

I mean, I do suspect it's purely to drive a wedge in to pretend there's space for a C/A conclusion and then insist on that conclusion because we "can't say for sure" etc. etc. etc. Clerith of the gaps and all.

Sounds right.

Do eet!

I'll think about it.

Orphan battles in the streets to determine who rules the city, maybe?

See, it's fucked up no matter how you slice it. I could absolutely see two "orphanages" that really exist for gang war recruiting or out fights in this game world, maybe in Sector 5. But not run by Tifa or Cloud. Them I see rescuing fuckin' orphans and killing the proprietors.

Laugh at them a bit too, for good measure.

Agreed, a jolly and full belly laugh.

A beacon of truth and honestly, WacDonald's is.

I still have a hard time believing that mess of claims even happened. Just, ffs why?

It was darkly hilarious to see them turn on translators who were formerly totally trustworthy in their eyes because a translation came out "Cloti."

It doesn't mean what I want it to mean?! How can this be?! It must be lies you filthy Cloti heretic! BURN THE HERETIC IN AERITH'S NAME!!!!!

That about right?

On at least one occasion they were caught using Hitoshura's translation with one word changed. It was either a crisis core keyword or a character profile, I think.

That's fucked up, Hito worked hard on that shit. People shouldn't fuck with anyone's work of course, but seriously back off Hito ya dicks.

There were also instances of just making complete bullshit up like Koi SPACE Bito which means something completely different to Koibtio.

Ahhh yes, the old "let's hope no one understands how Japanese works" defense.

I can start with the quote from 2000 gil to be a hero then.

Looking forward to seeing the new SSL24.

When people are making her to be a saintly messianic figure, I'm gonna mock them for it, simple as.

I never could conceive the sassy slum girl being made out this way. Though to be fair, that's not too different from many actual saints.

They say the same about several couples who get married in the end!

It remains silly.

But they're all very vague, is my point.

Vague and easily seen as preconceived and self-serving.

All of these lack a lot of detail. You could make the case that these are all ironic, in that for example, putting your trust in Cait gives a last minute twist of betrayal, the Black Materia is decidedly unlucky, etc.

There is that too.

 

[Sacky]

This is the response i got back on the thank you thing
"About the "thank you" thing, it was explained to me by a Japanese friend so I'm sorry but I'm very much inclined to believe her on that subject, the same way she explained to me the hand gesture and I trust her explanations on that too. On top of that, the FFX example is proof enough it can at least be interpreted that way even if you just discard it by saying translators were incompetent fools back in the day. The acting from the scene itself, and the way Aerith tries to brush it off almost immediately, should also be a convincing clue she said something a lot deeper than a mere "thank you" even if you just take Rebirth into consideration here. "

I don't even know what to say anymore this is insane

 

[SilverSisu]

I'm skeptical, so even though I hope it's true since I'm Zerith bias, I also try to think lesser... That maybe it's just a storytelling about different worlds/Stamp. That's why skipping Zack is also skipping C/A dream date. Plus Aerith needs to transfer the white materia through Cloud.

I think the biggest reference is when Aerith take the flowers brooch. Just like she said "one date", "tanomoshii", "isshoni tai desu", and "kirei, hitomi" in chapter 8 Remake which later she admits in Gondola as seeing Zack in Cloud; she says "taisetsu na surune" or "I'll treasure this" referenced to Zack's giving her pink ribbon. She doesnt have to say that since Cloud doesnt give it to her, not even wanting to do since it's not his choice. So I guess she hopes Cloud did the same Zack do.

Did you notice that merchant who gave that brooch said "come on, man" to Cloud.

This was one of Zack's most memorable catchphrases in Crisis Core when Zack and Aerith tried to catch Bruno who stole Zack's wallet.

Also that old woman who was selling candy said "if only we all had more time."

When Aerith gave her 23 tiny wishes to Zack he noticed that her biggest wish was "I'd like to spend more time with you"

It's like poetry. It rhymes.

 

[imach0c0]

I'm skeptical, so even though I hope it's true since I'm Zerith bias, I also try to think lesser... That maybe it's just a storytelling about different worlds/Stamp. That's why skipping Zack is also skipping C/A dream date. Plus Aerith needs to transfer the white materia through Cloud.

I think the biggest reference is when Aerith take the flowers brooch. Just like she said "one date", "tanomoshii", "isshoni tai desu", and "kirei, hitomi" in chapter 8 Remake which later she admits in Gondola as seeing Zack in Cloud; she says "taisetsu na surune" or "I'll treasure this" referenced to Zack's giving her pink ribbon. She doesnt have to say that since Cloud doesnt give it to her, not even wanting to do since it's not his choice. So I guess she hopes Cloud did the same Zack do, and treasure it as a symbol of her feelings. So, by the universe against Cloud to do that, it also tells her what he stands. He is not the one.

If these worlds are dream/hopes and Aerith created it, I interpreted that this "dream world" is kinda representative of her subconscious in a way. Meaning she still lingers for Zack, which is why it alludes to a lot of Zack references. On the surface, it seems she has or is trying to move on from Zack and enjoy a moment with Cloud. However, it doesn't work out because her heart is not in the right place and she may still be projecting onto Cloud. Even though she is trying to find the real Cloud and is ok that he is not Zack, I still think Aerith's heart is still wavering because she has not gotten over Zack. (based on how each stall rejects the player's choice).

This "love" she is seeking comes off as one-sided from her end and almost forced as the one her inner heart desires is Zack. (however, she may may not realize it due to her conflicting feelings and having to navigate through all of them in order to understand what they actually mean).

Her uncertainty with the "suki" at the church seems to be her getting closer to figuring it out, though still vague.

 

[GamerSkull]

I call bullshit on all of these “I checked with my Japanese friend” claims.

 

[imach0c0]

This is the response i got back on the thank you thing
"About the "thank you" thing, it was explained to me by a Japanese friend so I'm sorry but I'm very much inclined to believe her on that subject, the same way she explained to me the hand gesture and I trust her explanations on that too. On top of that, the FFX example is proof enough it can at least be interpreted that way even if you just discard it by saying translators were incompetent fools back in the day. The acting from the scene itself, and the way Aerith tries to brush it off almost immediately, should also be a convincing clue she said something a lot deeper than a mere "thank you" even if you just take Rebirth into consideration here. "

I don't even know what to say anymore this is insane

How did you friend interpret that Aerith "arigatou" ?

What hand hold gesture are you referring to?