SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

LunarTarotGirl

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Lunarae
Yea I agree.

I liked the reference to OG with Cid sleeping in the audience during the NPTK song. lol

Regarding the word "loveless," this in a way can be a reference to Aerith and Zack's tragedy because he doesn't return to Aerith, thus leaving her "loveless"

In CC, Aerith's last words to Zack as well his final memory of Aerith is her saying: 待ってる (I'll wait for you)
Not sure if its intentional but in JP, Alphreid says to Rosa: 約束なんかなくても 待っていてくれる人がいること 俺は知ってるから (Even if there is no promise, I know there is someone waiting for me)

Note: The ENG translation is rough. Feel free to correct.

In CC, I think at one point, Genesis referred to Zack as the gift of the goddess because he thought his s-cells would cure his degradation. (I have to double check so this info may be inaccurate)
Yeah the gift of the goddess is technically S cells in Genesis's point of view, that specialness than can also save his life. G cells are basically a damnation upon the SOLDIERS. And Genesis literally are reference to Adam and Eve and the apple of knowledge. He and Angeal (Angel) are the fruit of the G project. But Genesis failed while Angeal "suceeded." He is jealous he can't be the hero and traumatized at the knowledge he is a failed experiment.

But even though he is obssesed with the play and the apple juice contest winner and he should be the chosen one. By all counts he doesn't have the gift from the goddess. He is not the hero he learns is destined to die. And he wants vengeance. To cope with the trauma he basically reeanacts Loveless with his friends Sephiroth and Angeal as the role of the friends.

So LOVELESS in that sense is also the situation of Genesis and the failed experiments thrown away by fate to be used as pawns on the battlefield or left to die due to forbidden knowledge and Shinra playing god. Which is literally the plot of Crisis Core.

And the love story part is the final act, Aerith's song and we have lines from Zack where he is connected to Alphreid. Aerith who is also technically Shinra's chosen one with the gift of knowledge used by them as a pawn.

Cloud is kinda an imposter in the sense he is mimicking Zack but gets the mantle of true hero anyway through Zack's legacy as our new protagonist and meets Aerith through fate on Loveless Street the love of Crisis Core's protagonist who he dies trying to return to. Cloud who also gets experimented on...Hence the connection to our current story..

I think Loveless the play is serving as these connections to Crisis Core/Reunion basically. (Literally called reunion)
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
While I agree that Loveless is very CC and ZA - thus Aerith - coded, I simply think the dress was made with Tifa in mind or she wouldn’t have any new outfit in GS. The design is very Tifa-esque, with the leather and the straps and the very visible breasts support. Then it’s been retrofitted to Aerith and Yuffie but honestly, I don’t think either looks really good in it.

I wouldn’t be surprised that if there was a GS outfit figurine, Aerith would be in her singer dress, Yuffie in her green dress and Tifa in the Rosa dress.
 

LunarTarotGirl

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Lunarae
While I agree that Loveless is very CC and ZA - thus Aerith - coded, I simply think the dress was made with Tifa in mind or she wouldn’t have any new outfit in GS. The design is very Tifa-esque, with the leather and the straps and the very visible breasts support. Then it’s been retrofitted to Aerith and Yuffie but honestly, I don’t think either looks really good in it.

I wouldn’t be surprised that if there was a GS outfit figurine, Aerith would be in her singer dress, Yuffie in her green dress and Tifa in the Rosa dress.
Yeah I could see the dress itself being designed to fit Tifa since she would be missing an outfit otherwise. They need to make sure she would look good in it so I could see it as used her as a model for the dress itself. I think they all look great.

However I definitely don't think the role of Rosa itself would fit Tifa or even Yuffie as the default Rosa character. It fits Aerith the most to have that role even without the dress simply because of her connection to Loveless that was already there. She could be in the singer dress and still fit Rosa with no problem and no additions. Which is probably why Aerith is Rosa in the other scenes too. Technically speaking I would say yes she is "default Rosa". Her song is also technically "Rosa's" response to "Alphreid". And regardless of who plays Rosa this doesn't change.

But I think they were aware of that and wanted any girl to fit Rosa regardless of the dress or lore connection so the plays have choices in them where all three girls can fit in the play without an issue. This included adding things like the dialogue and spin scenes where each interaction is unique. And addition of the trophy with Tifa getting a role onstage.

Also Jessie basically having her original role be Rosa as well.

The Loveless play also being combined with the Dragon King play let's it be closer to the GC date in OG with each play being unique as well so all characters can fit seamlessly.
 
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abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Love how Tifa is characterized, but I need Cloud to make some gains as a desirable domestic partner for the sake of his character.
In-universe everyone seems to understand that, but no one takes it to its logical conclusion. Normally someone like that isn't an ideal partner for a grown woman, and definitely isn't ready for a family.
Normally yes, but I mean, Cloud displays more maturity than a 16 year old, so I don't think the mental age gap is really that big, despite the technicality of it. He is running a business and at the start of CoT he's the one encouraging Tifa that everything will be ok, that he'll be there to remind her of how strong she is, so it's not like he doesn't try to be supportive emotionally. It's only when he falls into his own bout of depression does this encouragement dissappear, but then again the depression is largely gone by the end of Advent Children.

Might I also add, that at the start of CoT, Cloud is very much trying his best to be supportive, and Tifa herself acknowledges that he is trying for her despite his glaring personal issues:
Cloud wasn’t the best at socializing, or more accurately, he was downright awful at it. Yet, he would go negotiate with people to obtain the ingredients they needed, everyday, without objection or complaint. The process of negotiating carried more value than the price he paid. Cloud was taking small steps forward.

He’s pushing himself too hard for me. Will he leave one day, once the bar gets on the right track?

I'd also like to add that Denzel looked up to Cloud specifically. Tifa also thinks he resembles a young dad, so there's that aswell. He couldn't have been that terrible of a father figure.

Hell, even as a child he displays some emotional maturity/development beyond that of the other boys his age:

1. Even though Cloud knew the truth about what happened on the mountain, he chose to take the blame for it because he thought it would bring Tifa shame if he told the truth. He did this as an 8(?) year old boy. The other boys immediately lied to cover their own hides, and never owned up to it, at that.

Not to mention the bravery needed to follow her up the mountain, something the other boys also lacked.

2. Not seeing Tifa as a trophy to be won. Atleast one of the other boys sent Tifa a letter that implied he owned her.

tl;dr: Cloud doesn't get it right all the time when it comes to their relationship, but he tries, and it's not plausible for a relationship to be flawless, so I don't know where the idea that Cloud is necessarily an 'undesirable' partner for Tifa comes from, weird technical mental age gap or not.

He claimed they thought Aerith was the love interest without having any prior FF7 knowledge, but again, what the ever loving fuck.
Why am I not surprised?

I remember the argument for this one was "He's wearing the sleeve again so we don't know if he's wearing it or not so he still is!"
"I can't prove my statement, but since you can't prove yours the only logical conclusion is that I'm right!"

I'd honestly argue that there is evidence he isn't wearing it anymore. Nobody else is, first off. Second off, refer back to the message that Advent Children is trying to bash you over the head with: moving on.

No, that's all correct. The flower field is where they promise to reunite if they're ever separated and don't know where the other has gotten off to. It's extremely important to them and to the plot, showing up in the opening seconds of the game. Actually, people have made the argument that the entire game actually 'happens' while Squall is stuck in time compression trying to find his way back there, that what we're playing is his memories of the events instead of the events themselves, which is bizarre but makes a certain amount of sense given time fuckery and feelings are how you fight them.
It's best not to try make sense of Final Fantasy 8, we're all better off that way. Time travel will always create weird paradoxes one way or another.

Yeah, pretty much. In both cases the Clerith assumptions were torpedoed in the next game released as well.
Even excluding the obvious 'Tifa is his light who he's running away from, same as he was in Advent Children', a Clerith narrative for Kingdom Hearts two is especially ridiculous.

Do these people really think Nomura went through the effort to make such a mockery of Tifa? That she runs around Hollow Bastion looking under tables and banging on walls trying to find a guy who doesn't love her and is actively running away from her as if she's some crazy person, while he is apparently searching for his lost love (Aerith), and that Nomura was okay with this portrayal of her? I'm speechless, but tbh what's new?
But can Rinoa launch him out of a wrist cannon?
The real question is; is Aerith into Zack being launched out of a wrist cannon?

In this case it was quote one to contradict the same one.
All too easy. Everytime. Hell, quote Aerith herself to contradict a Clerith.

It's very much a case of missing the blatantly obvious to focus on the obscure and the irrelevant.
"He can wear her ribbon in Final Fantasy Tactics!" pfffft

I mean, mechanically the Rosa actress matches the lady that you date if you get a lady result. I actually wish there had been more Rosa variation for the Barret, Red, and Grump dates. Maybe have it be Tifa, Aerith and Yuffie respectively.
It doesn't really matter either way, Loveless is one big Crisis Core reference anyway, it certainly isn't Clerith-coded.

Well, in the early scripts Jenova was a state of being like super saiyan or enlightenment, and we also know that some of the early game elements got shuffled off to Parasite Eve, so.... yeah, it's entirely possible. I don't know if we have confirmation on the Thing inspiration or that Jenova is technically a hivemind in the sense that each body shares the same thoughts, or if it's more of a mind that can force itself on anything that contains its cells.
The reason I say it is because Jenova is an alien who crash landed at one of the poles, then it shape shifts into those around you to fool you. At a base level it just sounds similar, so that's why I bring it up.

I'd say Jenova is technically a hivemind, all of the blackrobes had the same intention, to 'reunite' with each other at the 'reunion'. So there's atleast some evidence to support it.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
@LunarTarotGirl Just to make sure, I am only talking about the dress 😅 for the role it’s clear to me that it doesn’t fit Tifa. But then I also don’t think Cloud fits anyway - although he does if he takes it as Zack. Which is interesting since I feel he takes his role in the gondola as a stand-in for Zack too with Aerith.
 

LunarTarotGirl

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Lunarae
@LunarTarotGirl Just to make sure, I am only talking about the dress 😅 for the role it’s clear to me that it doesn’t fit Tifa. But then I also don’t think Cloud fits anyway - although he does if he takes it as Zack. Which is interesting since I feel he takes his role in the gondola as a stand-in for Zack too with Aerith.
Yeah this I can see her as a model for the dress. However I wasn't sure because the conversation seemed to be questioning who is default Rosa and why Aerith is in other scenes hence my two cents.

I see the function of the play itself it as multipurpose basically. And yeah Cloud and Tifa in this sense would be "imposters" of the roles because they're the regular people who end up surviving and defeating Sephiroth while the "special people" die.

And Cloud finds out the mystery of Zack through meeting Aerith on Loveless Street who is dealing with his MIA. So like a bridge in the story sense. He is an "imposter Alphreid."
 
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Sacky

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SackyBoy
Yeah this I can see her as a model for the dress. However I wasn't sure because the conversation seemed to be questioning who is default Rosa and why Aerith is in other scenes hence my two cents.

I see the play itself it as multipurpose basically. And yeah Cloud and Tifa in this sense would be "imposters" of the roles because they're the regular people who end up surviving and defeating Sephiroth while the "special people" die.

And Cloud finds out the mystery of Zack through meeting Aerith on Loveless who is dealing with his MIA. So like a bridge in the story sense. He is an "imposter Alphreid."
Oh so the hero who leaves at the end for all who hold dear are waiting for me fits Zack then. What did you think about the Goddess being shown as Jenova when we get the Jenova lore the lifestream hologram or whatever shows the loveless angel from the play saying the goddess from the sky the calamity Jenova?
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
@LunarTarotGirl While I do feel Aerith fits Rosa the most because CC and ZA, I also think the devs didn’t want to have anyone as a “default” because all the dates are equal. As I said to me it’s a technical point that had them have Aerith only play in the others’ dates, because when she sings she doesn’t interfere with others. Like there’s that, but also the dress being Tifa’s theme and Cloud presenting both Rosa and Aerith at the end. So there’s no answer to a default Rosa because it just doesn’t exist. Rosa depends only on who you get as your date.
 

LunarTarotGirl

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Lunarae
Oh so the hero who leaves at the end for all who hold dear are waiting for me fits Zack then. What did you think about the Goddess being shown as Jenova when we get the Jenova lore the lifestream hologram or whatever shows the loveless angel from the play saying the goddess from the sky the calamity Jenova?
Yes it fits Zack whose lore is trying to return the entire time even in death.

Because the "goddess" in Genesis and Shinra's POV is Jenova in the sense that Shinra mistook her for a Cetra and their salvation whenb she was really a monster and world destroyer. They used forbidden science (knowledge) and gave her "gift" her cells to make super soldiers. That forbidden knowledge that damned him takes the form of Minerva for Genesis in CC.
 

LunarTarotGirl

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Lunarae
Ye
@LunarTarotGirl While I do feel Aerith fits Rosa the most because CC and ZA, I also think the devs didn’t want to have anyone as a “default” because all the dates are equal. As I said to me it’s a technical point that had them have Aerith only play in the others’ dates, because when she sings she doesn’t interfere with others. Like there’s that, but also the dress being Tifa’s theme and Cloud presenting both Rosa and Aerith at the end. So there’s no answer to a default Rosa because it just doesn’t exist. Rosa depends only on who you get as your date.
Yeah that's exactly what I meant with my original post and why I put "default Rosa" in quotes. Aerith can be on technicality considered "default" in the sense of her being in more scenes and the song being the play lyrics and lore connection as the song lyrics she wrote is "technically Rosa".

But I also think the devs were aware of that so they changed things so anyone can be Rosa and fit regardless and regardless of Aerith singing. So in practice there actually would be no default which is why even Jessie got a role as Rosa. Rosa for the play would then be whoever you get.

I was just saying if they ever confirmed a default I wouldn't be surprised at all if the answer was Aerith based on my observations. I just don't think they wanted a default and actively worked so any girl fits.

To be clearer for me I seperate it as Rosa lore symbolism is Aerith but Rosa for the date itself is any of the three girls. So yeah no default or canon date Rosa.
 
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Sacky

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SackyBoy
Yes it fits Zack whose lore is trying to return the entire time even in death.

Because the "goddess" in Genesis and Shinra's POV is Jenova in the sense that Shinra mistook her for a Cetra and their salvation whenb she was really a monster and world destroyer. They used forbidden science (knowledge) and gave her "gift" her cells to make super soldiers. That forbidden knowledge that damned him takes the form of Minerva for Genesis in CC.
Damm you really analysed Loveless then huh. So what do you think the purpose of loveless is just to be a crisis core reference or do you think the story will play into part 3. There's obviously the line Barret says about Journey's end a lot of theory people on YouTube have been trying to make theories on how the whole play works into part 3
 

pxl_pushr

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Pixel
@abzy1200 I guess my frustration with Cloud isn’t so much aimed at the character as much as it’s aimed at how he’s portrayed in visual media. ACC needs the surrounding literature to fully see the time before, the lead up to, and the trigger of Cloud’s character arc in ACC. It should’ve found its way into the film but film is restrictive on the one thing that makes books and video games thrive: time.

I don’t doubt Cloud is a great partner for Tifa, and I’m sure his efforts are cherished by her… but good golly gosh would I like to see a happy stretch of time with these two lol if you’re going to show me the struggles, then reward me by showing me the happy.

This is the main reason why I want them to tackle ACC again, but in game form. This level of character writing and more time inherent to it being in game form? Yeah let’s do it.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
@abzy1200 I guess my frustration with Cloud isn’t so much aimed at the character as much as it’s aimed at how he’s portrayed in visual media. ACC needs the surrounding literature to fully see the time before, the lead up to, and the trigger of Cloud’s character arc in ACC. It should’ve found its way into the film but film is restrictive on the one thing that makes books and video games thrive: time.

I don’t doubt Cloud is a great partner for Tifa, and I’m sure his efforts are cherished by her… but good golly gosh would I like to see a happy stretch of time with these two lol if you’re going to show me the struggles, then reward me by showing me the happy.

This is the main reason why I want them to tackle ACC again, but in game form. This level of character writing and more time inherent to it being in game form? Yeah let’s do it.
That's the problem, and I agree with you, a decent few of my qualms with ACC is that Case of Tifa is the first act to it, but it's missing, and that's where the misconceptions come from. People who watch ACC only see the bad, and not the good, they don't see Cloud supporting Tifa and her own depression at the start of CoT.

His depression just gets the better of him, that's why we NEED an epilogue that is atleast post-ACC to clear up misconceptions.

And I would be so down for an Advent Children DLC that is also a redo of Advent Children. Let's see those character designs in HD and some less questionable writing, that actually includes the first third of the story. Although, they would probably have to change the combat a bit, since most encounters in Advent Children are fought alone, maybe something more akin to Crisis Core (ugh, I know).
 
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pxl_pushr

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Pixel
That's the problem, and I agree with you, a decent few of my qualms with ACC is that Case of Tifa is the first act to it, but it's missing, and that's where the misconceptions come from. People who watch ACC only see the bad, and not the good, they don't see Cloud supporting Tifa and her own depression at the start of CoT.

His depression just gets the better of him, that's why we NEED an epilogue that is atleast post-ACC to clear up misconceptions.

And I would be so down for an Advent Children DLC that is also a redo of Advent Children. Let's see those character designs in HD and some less questionable writing, that actually includes the first third of the story. Although, they would probably have to change the combat a bit, since most encounters in Advent Children are fought alone, maybe something more akin to Crisis Core (ugh, I know).
Having Cloud’s rebound from depression involve more of the party would make sense to me. I do like how Vincent is more present than the rest thematically, so I’d keep that.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
All of us asked him the same thing at the time.
Honestly I'm pretty sure he never did it, just claimed he did. AA came across as a bit of a fabulist.


Specifcally, they refuse to admit that Cloud was in his promised land because he no longer felt alone and like he could go home and be with Tifa again, not because he just happened to be in the church.


If you watch the actual ending, each of the playable heroes has a goodby message. They are all standing in a field in which there are flowers. Each hero starting with Tidus says a goodbye and vanishes in a way that represents their world. Tidus jumps into the lake, Zidane jumps into the sun, Squall grabs a feather and stands in the flower field, says "Maybe we can go on a mission again." and Cloud stands up in the same field and says "Not Interested."
For the record, Terra holds a snowflake
Bartz throws a branch,
Cecil- the canonically married man of this entire fucking series at this point I remind you- stands in front of the moon as it changes phase. The moon has jack fuck all to do with his wife.
Onion Knight holds his crystal and vanishes as birds fly overhead,
Firion stands in a bed of roses.
Warrior of Light is in his homeworld already and begins marching forward.


Y'ain't wrong.


Exactly, also mea culpa, I wrote FF8 instead of Dragon Quest 8 and that is a very different Angelo.


It's why they hold on so hard to the few examples that aren't actively against CA in their portrayals.


Oh, you never argue to convince your opponent. You argue for the benefit of the audience.


It's a reasonable assumption but we actually don't know. 7th heaven is evacuated very early on and we only later see them during the big deepground mission. But it seems reasonable, yes.


Against expectations, in this case Gacha solved something.


Quote a Clerith to contradict that Clerith happened on more than one occasion.


At least a few of them admitted it I think.


Aerith flirts with everyone in the spinoff games and everyone thinks Zack is the player. Where is the justice.


Touche.


I think she was trying to score a blow by using my own words against me, the problem being that the words she chose were from years ago at that point and ones I was using for emphasis, not as the crux of a point.


Perhaps it is more accurate to say BB's brain broke as a result of repeatedly bashing it against me to the point of self harm.


It's the nature of the Koroks. And Kokiri.


BB is perhaps the dictionary example for "Extremist Clerith" these days.


Hmmm, that won't do. It really ought to be Jay Gerrick.


Better a game delayed than a game forever terrible.


Like, I worry about AA sometimes that's how strange the lad was.


If you're going to be a fucker, at least be good at being a fucker.


Pretty much, yes.


I'm curious what the ratios are like elsewhere.


Was this a local presenter you were thinking of?


"You need to cheat more subtly" Tifa chimes in. "So we don't catch you at least."


He's seen some shit.


They're good for a berserker rampage, and there was need of that back then.
Also for throwing.


Like, show the film to someone as just "the spirits within" and they'll probably see it more favorably than if you call it Final Fantasy.


Fair.


If not even higher.


Not subtle in the slightest, no.


Fair point.


I meant the source point for the lie, rather than the motivation, but true enough.


So much boils down to that yes.


You just gotta fold a bit of space here and there. No biggy.


I still say the scene as a whole feels unbalanced without someone beside Cloud during the bow. Aerith ought to be center frame for her bow and she's not unless Tifa or Yuffie are Rosa.


Jenova is explicitly a braindead lump of cells acting on instinct now. Sephiroth felt the pull of Jenova until he realized what it all was and now he makes Jenova pull towards him. So you aren't exactly wrong, but it's not the mastermind it once was.
Trying to seek validation from a bunch of third graders, who haven’t experienced the actual story and are probably not old enough to understand any subtlety or subtext, sounds deranged as hell.
 

pxl_pushr

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Pixel
Trying to seek validation from a bunch of third graders, who haven’t experienced the actual story and are probably not old enough to understand any subtlety or subtext, sounds deranged as hell.
And it’s quite the self own tbh

This experiment doesn’t say what you think it says, chief.

Put it in the bucket with “Aerith was made first and Tifa second, thus Aerith is the true romantic love interest” argument.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
And it’s quite the self own tbh

This experiment doesn’t say what you think it says, chief.

Put it in the bucket with “Aerith was made first and Tifa second, thus Aerith is the true romantic love interest” argument.
This argument pisses me off because it was Tifa who was made first, not Aerith lmao

TIFA was the Cetra, Cloud's childhood friend, and love interest all rolled into one. Then they wanted to kill the Cetra but didn't want to kill Tifa, so they split Tifa into two characters. Tifa kept her role as the childhood friend and love interest, and Aerith was given the role of the Cetra and additional love interest.

But this idea that Aerith came first is false, so it annoys tf outta me lmao. It's like arguing that Sephiroth came first and Vincent came after when it's the exact situation as Tifa/Aerith. Vincent was Tifa's brother, which is where the idea of "Sephiroth is a cetra and Aerith's brother" came from. Plus, you can tell that Tifa and Vincent were the intended siblings because they still share design characteristics--long dark hair, red eyes, pale skin.

Drives me up the wall fr lmao.

Edited for clarity
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
That’s because the devs have said that they created Aerith first but tbh I think it was a stage where they tried a lot of various things with the story. Whatever it was, it’s clear that it wasn’t anything like the FFVII we ended up with, so it definitely shouldn’t be used as an LTD point.

The fact that they created Tifa to remain by Cloud’s side until the end because they killed Aerith though…
 

ChaosandConfusion

Pro Adventurer
The fact that they created Tifa to remain by Cloud’s side until the end because they killed Aerith though…
Someone told me this was false statement. Btw I'm glad I found this forum because whenever people were telling me things about Cloud and Aerith being the actual intended couple I believed it because who would lie about a video game. I think Facebook ff7 is probably worse than x.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
That’s because the devs have said that they created Aerith first but tbh I think it was a stage where they tried a lot of various things with the story. Whatever it was, it’s clear that it wasn’t anything like the FFVII we ended up with, so it definitely shouldn’t be used as an LTD point.

The fact that they created Tifa to remain by Cloud’s side until the end because they killed Aerith though…
Yeah I think it's just that by that point "Cetra = Aerith" in their minds, so when they're describing it they say Aerith came first, which is natural. But we have the character chart that proves otherwise, so it's an annoying LTD argument and it's why I keep that character chart on hand bc it shuts them up real fast.

Someone told me this was false statement. Btw I'm glad I found this forum because whenever people were telling me things about Cloud and Aerith being the actual intended couple I believed it because who would lie about a video game. I think Facebook ff7 is probably worse than x.
Lord. It's only one of the most popular dev quotes of all time for FF7 lmaoooo. I hate people.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Oh he totally did it, and then celebrated the W he'd just gotten fir Aerith by taking the kids out for kids meals at WacDonald's /sarcasm
Get them all a Sappy meal while he's at it.

It takes a special kind of denial to play/watch the compilation unfold and still think of The Promised Land as a physical location of any sort.

The Promised Land is a state of mind.
You have to listen to all the wrong people (Rufus, Hojo) to get that idea without listening to what Aerith herself says.

I remember pointing out that if this somehow was about Aerith, his choice of words wasn't exactly encouraging.
I remember pointing out that the goddamn fucking married man of the group didn't reference his wife, so why would we expect any of the others to reference their loved one.

Also for the lulz. They may be secondary in importance, but still vital.
Yes, do enjoy your debate/ debunking.

You can expect to be nuh-uhed if you say so to a CAltist of course. Because obviously that can't be right for... reasons? Assuming they don't just try slut shaming Tifa by implying she's bunking with Barret. I've seen it happen, it's not nice.
Ah yes, the "Anyone but Cloud" strategy. Tifa is with Barret, Johnny, Rude, Reno, Rufus, anyone but the man she formed a family with.

By ruining it for them :monster:
Har har, but no, this gacha actually gave those two characters a happy ending and also has allowed a bunch of characters to reunite (Lots of dead and missing parents in Fire Emblem.)

Daily or more at one time.
Indeed

Yep, some seemed truly proud of it. T'was nuts.
You always wonder the thought process of the ones so forthright about it.

I wish we had a smiley that's equivalent to a polite nod of gratitude and acknowledgement. Since we don't, we go all purpose :monster:
That's what it's used for most of the time anyways.

I stand by my assertion that she never knew how those words worked. It was like an opponent taking your sword and trying to use it against you only to cut their own throat. Repeatedly.
More like trying to use a weapon I casually tossed away like it was my primary armament. Like a spent flashbang she thought was my Excalibur.

This is BB's brain. This is BB's brain on Ryu. Any questions? :awesome:
Why is BB? Existentially, that is.

And even Krorks, to a lesser extent.
Koroks vs 40K would be delightful and horrifying at the same time.

Did they get even worse or did things in general get a bit better? It's a bit of both, right?
Yep.

Exactly. Also requires less toxic work practices to beat crunch that way.
Ideally one does, yes. Sadly not always.

They had a nonstandard outlook for sure. Had a hint of creeper with a side of unhealthy fixation if I remember rightly.
There was a lot of shaming men for having highly sexual thoughts about Tifa, while his AV was a big titty Aerith with a materia in her cleavage.

And if you're good at something never do it for free! ...wait no.
You heard the man, become porn stars.

But is it VEGETA YES!?
No, it's Attenbrough, yes. Wouldn't want to startle the animals, after all.

If you decide to satisfy that curiosity do tell.
Will do.

Sort of, he was a local reporter but not local to anywhere I ever lived :doh: He was out of L.A. but I saw him on several national reports where they cut to a local and mistook him for national. Although at this point I guess a 90's reporter is old timey isn't he?

Fuck I'm old.
Nah, 90's isn't yet old timey. Once the 2030s come around, it might be. I think the line is somewhere in the 70s or early 80s right now.

Funny, I actually prefer a scimitar or two for berserk rampage time. To each their own if course. Axe definitely throws better if course. Just remember rule one.
Never throw away your primary weapon and never throw out a weapon you aren't fully prepared to see used against you if it comes down to it."

Are we back to weed dealer Aerith? Cause I was having the beginning of a good one for Great Gospel.
Vendel not having an off switch or settings below 10, but go ahead and give us the weed joke.

Fair point to you. Determining the origin of said lie is if course much harder. Even blatant lies aren't usually pulled wholesale out of someone's ass, but what was the basis?
Exactly. The forensics of a false belief are important to understanding how to nip it in the bud in the future. Like knowing how the fusion swords became mistakenly known as "the first tsurugi" for example.

I'm not handy enough for that kinda home improvement :awesome:
Instead of knocking walls down, you have to knock them sideways. And be careful with your direction so you don't knock them up. That gets you more houses, not more house.

I forgot who it was, but I actually read that response. It's how I know of that particular nightmare of a fic in the first place :mon:
It was me.

Yeah I could see the dress itself being designed to fit Tifa since she would be missing an outfit otherwise. They need to make sure she would look good in it so I could see it as used her as a model for the dress itself. I think they all look great.

However I definitely don't think the role of Rosa itself would fit Tifa or even Yuffie as the default Rosa character. It fits Aerith the most to have that role even without the dress simply because of her connection to Loveless that was already there. She could be in the singer dress and still fit Rosa with no problem and no additions. Which is probably why Aerith is Rosa in the other scenes too. Technically speaking I would say yes she is "default Rosa". Her song is also technically "Rosa's" response to "Alphreid". And regardless of who plays Rosa this doesn't change.

But I think they were aware of that and wanted any girl to fit Rosa regardless of the dress or lore connection so the plays have choices in them where all three girls can fit in the play without an issue. This included adding things like the dialogue and spin scenes where each interaction is unique. And addition of the trophy with Tifa getting a role onstage.

Also Jessie basically having her original role be Rosa as well.

The Loveless play also being combined with the Dragon King play let's it be closer to the GC date in OG with each play being unique as well so all characters can fit seamlessly.

Yeah this I can see her as a model for the dress. However I wasn't sure because the conversation seemed to be questioning who is default Rosa and why Aerith is in other scenes hence my two cents.

I see the function of the play itself it as multipurpose basically. And yeah Cloud and Tifa in this sense would be "imposters" of the roles because they're the regular people who end up surviving and defeating Sephiroth while the "special people" die.

And Cloud finds out the mystery of Zack through meeting Aerith on Loveless Street who is dealing with his MIA. So like a bridge in the story sense. He is an "imposter Alphreid."

Ironically, because I do think the part of the play with Rosa and the dragon knight is a great big Zack and CC reference it feels better to me for Aerith not to be Rosa there. It's less cruel to her to play 'herself' against a false Zack. Plus it makes her dramatic reveal on stage more of a surprise and gives her a big bow with even more people to flank her and puts her properly in center frame. (If Tifa is Rosa it also handily gives each playable lady a moment at GS, Yuffie the center spot as the idol, Tifa gets to be Rosa, Aerith sings No Promises.)

Why am I not surprised?
Because he's the sort to try- or claim to try- and show a movie to grade schoolers to win an online argument.

"I can't prove my statement, but since you can't prove yours the only logical conclusion is that I'm right!"

I'd honestly argue that there is evidence he isn't wearing it anymore. Nobody else is, first off. Second off, refer back to the message that Advent Children is trying to bash you over the head with: moving on.
Oh, almost certainly.

It's best not to try make sense of Final Fantasy 8, we're all better off that way. Time travel will always create weird paradoxes one way or another.
I might just be strange but I never found FF8 confusing. Poorly explained, but not confusing.

Even excluding the obvious 'Tifa is his light who he's running away from, same as he was in Advent Children', a Clerith narrative for Kingdom Hearts two is especially ridiculous.

Do these people really think Nomura went through the effort to make such a mockery of Tifa? That she runs around Hollow Bastion looking under tables and banging on walls trying to find a guy who doesn't love her and is actively running away from her as if she's some crazy person, while he is apparently searching for his lost love (Aerith), and that Nomura was okay with this portrayal of her? I'm speechless, but tbh what's new?
Plus he's not actually looking for Aerith at all, but Sephiroth.

The real question is; is Aerith into Zack being launched out of a wrist cannon?
You know she would be. So would Zack, probably.

All too easy. Everytime. Hell, quote Aerith herself to contradict a Clerith.
That you can.

"He can wear her ribbon in Final Fantasy Tactics!" pfffft
Nevermind everyone in FF7 can wear "her" ribbon.

It doesn't really matter either way, Loveless is one big Crisis Core reference anyway, it certainly isn't Clerith-coded.
It's ZA as hell, yes.

The reason I say it is because Jenova is an alien who crash landed at one of the poles, then it shape shifts into those around you to fool you. At a base level it just sounds similar, so that's why I bring it up.

I'd say Jenova is technically a hivemind, all of the blackrobes had the same intention, to 'reunite' with each other at the 'reunion'. So there's atleast some evidence to support it.
Like I said, we don't have confirmation but it seems quite possible.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
This argument pisses me off because it was Tifa who was made first, not Aerith lmao

TIFA was the Cetra, Cloud's childhood friend, and love interest all rolled into one. Then they wanted to kill the Cetra but didn't want to kill Tifa, so they split Tifa into two characters. Tifa kept her role as the childhood friend and love interest, and Aerith was given the role of the Cetra and additional love interest.

But this idea that Aerith came first is false, so it annoys tf outta me lmao. It's like arguing that Sephiroth came first and Vincent came after when it's the exact situation as Tifa/Aerith. Vincent was Tifa's brother, which is where the idea of "Sephiroth is a cetra and Aerith's brother" came from. Plus, you can tell that Tifa and Vincent were the intended siblings because they still share design characteristics--long dark hair, red eyes, pale skin.

Drives me up the wall fr lmao.

Edited for clarity
Technically, TECHNICALLY 'Sephiroth who looked like vincent' came first. His name was Sephiroth back then.

And yeah, Tifa and Vincent being siblings in very early designs explains why they're so similar phenotypically. Maybe we'll learn he's her uncle or great uncle one on her mom's side one of these days.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
Technically, TECHNICALLY 'Sephiroth who looked like vincent' came first. His name was Sephiroth back then.

And yeah, Tifa and Vincent being siblings in very early designs explains why they're so similar phenotypically. Maybe we'll learn he's her uncle or great uncle one on her mom's side one of these days.
Ok true, his name WAS Sephiroth, you're right, you're right. But they're still wrong about "Aerith and Sephiroth are siblings" bc technically it would be "Tifa and Sephiroth are siblings" 😌

And yeah, who knows, maybe they will say Vincent and Tifa are related but I think most people would hate that lmaoooo. The fandom's already pretty split on whether or not SE should lean into the idea of Vincent being Sephiroth's biological dad. I'm all for it though, not just because Hojo is ugly, but because it's more interesting for Vincent in general.

I know some people have said that SE just has "same face syndrome" and Sephiroth and Vincent looking alike in Rebirth doesn't mean anything ... buuuut I disagree. It's a bit too deliberate in my opinion. I also saw a theory about how Lucrecia's hyperfocus on Vincent could've led the Jenova cells into imprinting Vincent's looks onto her fetus--which would also work as an explanation without retconning the inclusion of Hojo's nasty genes, I suppose.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Someone told me this was false statement. Btw I'm glad I found this forum because whenever people were telling me things about Cloud and Aerith being the actual intended couple I believed it because who would lie about a video game. I think Facebook ff7 is probably worse than x.
Not sure this applies to you but for me, I thought it was obvious the game ended with C/T although I do admit it’s more subtle and less-in-your-face than C/A earlier in the game.

So when I went online to discuss it, I felt completely lost when I saw that C/A was the “intended couple”. Ultimately, I realized just how extreme the shipping random for FF7 is because… I was actually feeling gaslighted tbh.

Also, C/A is the “intended couple” but also… “it’s ambiguous”. Like… these two arguments don’t match.

Here’s the early relationship chart if anyone wants to see.
IMG_0098.jpeg
 
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