SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[pxl_pushr]

And to finish with Chapter 9.

Sephiroth describes Jenova like this : 怖れる顔愛する顔を見せて 人を動かしたという = It is said she moved people by showing them the face they fear, the face they love.

But Cloud when speaking to Tifa say this : かつてジェノバは愛する者 恐れる者の姿で人に近づき あざむいた = Once Jenova approached man in the form of who they loved, some who they feared, and mocked him.

As you can see, he changed the order and talk about Love first.

( looks over at the Jenova-has-been-driving-this-bus-the-whole-time button behind glass )

Soon my child, soon I shall press you.

 

[Yoru]

Even if what's said here is more neutral, the scene with Tifa reaching out to Sephiroth and Cloud speaks for itself.

As I showed with the other lines, some things are more neutral in japanese. And some things are not.

So it doesn't change much the global atmosphere of the scene.

 

[nars305]

Arguing over translations will be the “new” battlefront once part 3 comes out, I can already smell the napalm from here….

Based on the arguments I see…it seems like people default to Japanese? As in suddenly everyone knows the entire culture of Japan, what a tsunagi handhold or whatever is, Japanese people prefer hand holding, they are shy, thank you means I love you in Japan, etc, etc.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Besides the fact that this is so weird, why would this ever be relevant to a debate?! Are they trying to prove only people who (almost definitely) can't interpret media properly, and people missing basically all the context would think Clerith is canon? Ironic, to say the least.

Somehow I feel like Marlene and arguments surrounding stuff she says was an inspiration for that.

All of us asked him the same thing at the time.
Honestly I'm pretty sure he never did it, just claimed he did. AA came across as a bit of a fabulist.

and yet no matter how broken they are, they'll never concede that Cloud's promised land isn't the church. Even though, yet again, that directly contradicts the message Advent Children is trying to send.

Specifcally, they refuse to admit that Cloud was in his promised land because he no longer felt alone and like he could go home and be with Tifa again, not because he just happened to be in the church.

Not going to lie, that does seem highly sus and sounds like intentional fuel for the LTD having him say that while a bunch of flowers surround him. But like, Cloud doesn't remember who Aerith is in Dissidia, no? So how could he be talking about her?

If you watch the actual ending, each of the playable heroes has a goodby message. They are all standing in a field in which there are flowers. Each hero starting with Tidus says a goodbye and vanishes in a way that represents their world. Tidus jumps into the lake, Zidane jumps into the sun, Squall grabs a feather and stands in the flower field, says "Maybe we can go on a mission again." and Cloud stands up in the same field and says "Not Interested."
For the record, Terra holds a snowflake
Bartz throws a branch,
Cecil- the canonically married man of this entire fucking series at this point I remind you- stands in front of the moon as it changes phase. The moon has jack fuck all to do with his wife.
Onion Knight holds his crystal and vanishes as birds fly overhead,
Firion stands in a bed of roses.
Warrior of Light is in his homeworld already and begins marching forward.

Same answer as always, starts with c- and ends with -ope.

Y'ain't wrong.

And also when Aerith says to Cloud that Tifa would make a great wife, to which he replies; "I wonder who Tifa likes."

Exactly, also mea culpa, I wrote FF8 instead of Dragon Quest 8 and that is a very different Angelo.

and how the opening oddly draws more parallels with other "canon" pairings with Cloud and Tifa than it does with Cloud and Aerith. Hilarious. Imagine having to refer to stuff like a mario party type spinoff crossover instead of the actual compilation material, and it's not even in your favour.

It's why they hold on so hard to the few examples that aren't actively against CA in their portrayals.

This is the thing. Whenever I rarely argue with a Clerith it's never with the intention to actually change their mind, that's never going to happen. It's for the poor onlooker who happens upon the thread/reply chain. It's genuinely so easy to poke holes in their arguments that you never really have to try very hard in the first place. Just have to point out the lack of logic being used and then you can safely leave.

Oh, you never argue to convince your opponent. You argue for the benefit of the audience.

Something else, in Dirge of Cerberus, Barret is living in Seventh Heaven again right?

This is based off of the assumption that Seventh Heaven doesn't have any more than three bedrooms, since I don't think it's ever been shown or implied to have more than that, anymore than that and I think I would honestly be questioning how rough times really were if they were able to setup a four (or more) bedroom house in the middle of a city, that's also a bar. Even in the event that Cloud and Tifa didn't share a room pre-AC, I'm struggling to think of sleeping arrangements here that makes sense that doesn't have Cloud and Tifa sharing a room. If I'm not leaving anything out or forgetting something, then any arrangement other than this one would raise more questions than answers, honestly:

Cloud and Tifa take one room
The children take another
Barret takes the third one.

It's a reasonable assumption but we actually don't know. 7th heaven is evacuated very early on and we only later see them during the big deepground mission. But it seems reasonable, yes.

Gacha ruins everything And yeah that kind of crossover was a popular trend for a bit. I try to forget Castlevania attempted it.

Against expectations, in this case Gacha solved something.

To be fair, nearly everything they said hurt their positions in some way. Even if just by wrecking their credibility.

Quote a Clerith to contradict that Clerith happened on more than one occasion.

For quite a few CAltist types, you just described the OG

At least a few of them admitted it I think.

I do recall that, if only thanks to some shit posting along the lines of "And to think you keep calling Tifa a slut while Aerith is trying to bone Angelo."

Aerith flirts with everyone in the spinoff games and everyone thinks Zack is the player. Where is the justice.

As I said, it's like progress.

Touche.

Indeed. After a while she just tacked it onto everything like punctuation.

I think she was trying to score a blow by using my own words against me, the problem being that the words she chose were from years ago at that point and ones I was using for emphasis, not as the crux of a point.

It was cracked when you got there. Shatterpoint happened.

Perhaps it is more accurate to say BB's brain broke as a result of repeatedly bashing it against me to the point of self harm.

I mean, they did steal Hestu's ability to play his maracas and hide from him as a prank. Little fucker certainly applies. But then they're tiny and cute and they love Mr. Hero and want to help so bad. So yeah, both positions coexist just fine.

It's the nature of the Koroks. And Kokiri.

Contrition from people like BB. I'm definitely not gonna hold my breath, that's for sure.

BB is perhaps the dictionary example for "Extremist Clerith" these days.

I'm now picturing Squall in Wally West's Flash suit. I blame you for this.

Hmmm, that won't do. It really ought to be Jay Gerrick.

This is why I try not to complain molain about long development times. So many bad games that could have been good, good games that could have been great. Just need to bake a bit more.

Better a game delayed than a game forever terrible.

Oh ew, now I remember. Flower field spirit sex is one of the wildest fuckin' takes of all time. And I recall a sort of hushed silence over everything after they dragged kids into this. Before the floodgate opened, anyway.

Like, I worry about AA sometimes that's how strange the lad was.

They're really not.



At all costs and whatnot.

If you're going to be a fucker, at least be good at being a fucker.

Attenborough voice? It works.

Pretty much, yes.

I like those odds.

I'm curious what the ratios are like elsewhere.

Lawrence Welk was my first thought too, it felt too obvious for me. I think I went too far the other way. Also that the news man I had in mind is less old timey than I thought... I may have partially conflated the two actually.

Was this a local presenter you were thinking of?

Surprisingly it was Barret who chuckled and said "It kinda is."

"You need to cheat more subtly" Tifa chimes in. "So we don't catch you at least."

I'll say this for Rebirth Vinnie, he looks like someone who could mag dump on some dumbass kid without flinching. It's those eyes.

He's seen some shit.

Same. Could swear I recall you having a particular fondness for battle axes though.

They're good for a berserker rampage, and there was need of that back then.
Also for throwing.

You gave a point, it really set the wrong expectations.

Like, show the film to someone as just "the spirits within" and they'll probably see it more favorably than if you call it Final Fantasy.

Then in the interest of accuracy, I'll amend my statement. I hope it catches on around here

Fair.

Vendel didn't have any settings under 10, and mostly the knob was stuck on 11.

If not even higher.

Skull caved in levels of clobbering.

Not subtle in the slightest, no.

We have you for that

Fair point.

A desperate desire for it to be true. That's where it's coming from.

I meant the source point for the lie, rather than the motivation, but true enough.

The only argument they have is Aerith Wins Cause I Want Her To. The rest is just window dressing.

So much boils down to that yes.

Wow, your pantry is way more spacious than mine.

You just gotta fold a bit of space here and there. No biggy.

The reason why Aerith is used as Rosa is because Tifa and Yuffie have special scenes with Cloud during the song. So to not take away from the guys and Red’s scenes with Cloud during the song, they had Aerith as Rosa since she’s the only one who doesn’t really overshadow Barret and co.

I still say that Rosa’s dress was created for Tifa though.

I still say the scene as a whole feels unbalanced without someone beside Cloud during the bow. Aerith ought to be center frame for her bow and she's not unless Tifa or Yuffie are Rosa.

( looks over at the Jenova-has-been-driving-this-bus-the-whole-time button behind glass )

Soon my child, soon I shall press you.

Jenova is explicitly a braindead lump of cells acting on instinct now. Sephiroth felt the pull of Jenova until he realized what it all was and now he makes Jenova pull towards him. So you aren't exactly wrong, but it's not the mastermind it once was.

 

[Yoru]

Based on the arguments I see…it seems like people default to Japanese? As in suddenly everyone knows the entire culture of Japan, what a tsunagi handhold or whatever is, Japanese people prefer hand holding, they are shy, thank you means I love you in Japan, etc, etc.

As the creators are Japanese, it's true that it's more appropriate to rely on the Japanese text to know best what they wanted to express in their own words.

But... we didn't ask for the Japanese sociological studies submitted by the first crunchyroll subscriber who popped in...

 

[nars305]

As the creators are Japanese, it's true that it's more appropriate to rely on the Japanese text to know best what they wanted to express in their own words.

But... we didn't ask for the Japanese sociological studies submitted by the first crunchyroll subscriber who popped in...

Lmao, I agree the language to default to should be Japanese.

But yes, the weeb is strong sometimes with some folks.

 

[abzy1200]

As the creators are Japanese, it's true that it's more appropriate to rely on the Japanese text to know best what they wanted to express in their own words.

Based on the arguments I see…it seems like people default to Japanese? As in suddenly everyone knows the entire culture of Japan, what a tsunagi handhold or whatever is, Japanese people prefer hand holding, they are shy, thank you means I love you in Japan, etc, etc.

If they want to rely on the Japanese language, it's nuance etc. they can go see what Masaegu has to say.

As usual, Clerith arguments blow up in their face.

All of us asked him the same thing at the time.
Honestly I'm pretty sure he never did it, just claimed he did. AA came across as a bit of a fabulist.

Did we ever find out who the third graders decided Cloud loved? I can probably guess, actually.

Specifcally, they refuse to admit that Cloud was in his promised land because he no longer felt alone and like he could go home and be with Tifa again, not because he just happened to be in the church.

Doesn't Cloud (along with everyone else) also stop wearing the ribbons? More evidence that the past is in the past by the time Dirge of Cerberus rolls around.

If you watch the actual ending, each of the playable heroes has a goodby message. They are all standing in a field in which there are flowers. Each hero starting with Tidus says a goodbye and vanishes in a way that represents their world. Tidus jumps into the lake, Zidane jumps into the sun, Squall grabs a feather and stands in the flower field, says "Maybe we can go on a mission again." and Cloud stands up in the same field and says "Not Interested."
For the record, Terra holds a snowflake

That's something else that gives me the itching feeling that Squall and Rinoa were made to somewhat please Cleriths; 'not interested' guy who is unwilling to open up and pushy, fun girl. Opposites attract. But what really makes me feel like it was some kind of pandering is that the flower fields are somewhat associated with Squall and Rinoa and their relationship, where they "reunited" after all the time compression stuff. And like you mentioned, they probably didn't take the bait since Rinoa looks more like Tifa.

That's if I'm remember things correctly, ff8 is kind of a blur to me, if I'm being honest.

Arguments regarding the ending of Dissidia also sound like they have roughly the same foundation as any argument regarding Kingdom Hearts, and it's credits. If Cloud really was searching for his lost love in Kingdom Hearts, I feel like he would be a bit happier to see Aerith when he finally does.

He's too busy running away from 'warm' feelings, I wonder who that could be referring to though...

Exactly, also mea culpa, I wrote FF8 instead of Dragon Quest 8 and that is a very different Angelo.

Well, Zack is "like a puppy" as Sephiroth himself put it....

It's a reasonable assumption but we actually don't know. 7th heaven is evacuated very early on and we only later see them during the big deepground mission. But it seems reasonable, yes.

On that note, what is the best translation for the "Do you love me?" page? Some translations I see have "even if she waited until morning" and some have "even though she waited until morning". One is a hell of a lot more on the nose than the other and would make my life easier if that was the more accurate translation.

Regardless, nobody will ever convince me that Tifa, who is supposedly not a 'clingy' woman, would ever do something as creepy as sneaking into Cloud's room, waiting for him to fall asleep, and then whispering pressing questions into his ear. It's almost like she had a reason to be close enough to him while he was falling asleep that she could tell he was asleep in the first place, and I wonder what it could be.

Quote a Clerith to contradict that Clerith happened on more than one occasion.

Quote anybody to contradict a Clerith, really.

It's why they hold on so hard to the few examples that aren't actively against CA in their portrayals.

They really need to start asking themselves why Ultimania references and quotes aren't relevant, but Cloud and Aerith going on a walk in a spinoff game's opening is proof that Square Enix is trying to get us to pick up on. Like some kind of trail of breadcrumbs.

I still say the scene as a whole feels unbalanced without someone beside Cloud during the bow. Aerith ought to be center frame for her bow and she's not unless Tifa or Yuffie are Rosa.

The only reason I can't really see Tifa being the 'canon' Rosa is because it means that Tifa's date happened that night, and we all know what that means. Revealing their feelings for each other is kind of supposed to be a lifestream sequence thing.

It doesn't change the fact that Cloud would jump at the chance to swap spit with Tifa, and not a certain other party, though. Nothing will ever change that.

Jenova is explicitly a braindead lump of cells acting on instinct now. Sephiroth felt the pull of Jenova until he realized what it all was and now he makes Jenova pull towards him. So you aren't exactly wrong, but it's not the mastermind it once was.

On the topic of Jenova, it's sort of a hivemind right? Do we think the concept of Jenova was partially inspired by John Carpenter's 'The Thing' because I can 100% see it if so. That is, if I'm remembering things correctly.

 

[LNK]

https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/nominations-7-best-moments-from-insert-character-in-vii-rebirth.23644/#post-959224

 

[null]

Which imo is kinda the problem with Cloud if I’m completely honest.

What part of Tifa’s life is improved through being with him? Same question even if you switch Tifa for Aerith.

That’s what I need to see out of all this in the end. Tifa and Cloud are obviously meant for eachother, but by being so wishy washy about their relationship beyond the original story, it just looks like a stilted relationship.

Love how Tifa is characterized, but I need Cloud to make some gains as a desirable domestic partner for the sake of his character.

Honestly... it's really awkward because there's a mental distance between them that's both acknowledged and swept under the rug. Cloud's just a broken teenager inside. In-universe everyone seems to understand that, but no one takes it to its logical conclusion. Normally someone like that isn't an ideal partner for a grown woman, and definitely isn't ready for a family.

OG did a good job of glossing over all this. "Real" Cloud was a functioning adult. This is how I would have preferred it going forward. Weird mental age gaps are just distracting.

 

[null]

Angelalex was the guy who was very very adamant that Cloud was searching for Aerith in the end of AC and would reunite with her in the flower fields for spirit sex. He wrote a fanfic about it. I believe he also claimed to have shown his girlfriend's 3rd grade class AC as an experiment to see which of the ladies Cloud was in love with.
He also got very mad if you called him Angela Lex.

I vaguely recall someone writing up a MST3k-style response to that fic.

 

[Ryushikaze]

If they want to rely on the Japanese language, it's nuance etc. they can go see what Masaegu has to say.

As usual, Clerith arguments blow up in their face.

Did we ever find out who the third graders decided Cloud loved? I can probably guess, actually.

He claimed they thought Aerith was the love interest without having any prior FF7 knowledge, but again, what the ever loving fuck.

Doesn't Cloud (along with everyone else) also stop wearing the ribbons? More evidence that the past is in the past by the time Dirge of Cerberus rolls around.

I remember the argument for this one was "He's wearing the sleeve again so we don't know if he's wearing it or not so he still is!"

That's something else that gives me the itching feeling that Squall and Rinoa were made to somewhat please Cleriths; 'not interested' guy who is unwilling to open up and pushy, fun girl. Opposites attract. But what really makes me feel like it was some kind of pandering is that the flower fields are somewhat associated with Squall and Rinoa and their relationship, where they "reunited" after all the time compression stuff. And like you mentioned, they probably didn't take the bait since Rinoa looks more like Tifa.

That's if I'm remember things correctly, ff8 is kind of a blur to me, if I'm being honest.

No, that's all correct. The flower field is where they promise to reunite if they're ever separated and don't know where the other has gotten off to. It's extremely important to them and to the plot, showing up in the opening seconds of the game. Actually, people have made the argument that the entire game actually 'happens' while Squall is stuck in time compression trying to find his way back there, that what we're playing is his memories of the events instead of the events themselves, which is bizarre but makes a certain amount of sense given time fuckery and feelings are how you fight them.

Arguments regarding the ending of Dissidia also sound like they have roughly the same foundation as any argument regarding Kingdom Hearts, and it's credits. If Cloud really was searching for his lost love in Kingdom Hearts, I feel like he would be a bit happier to see Aerith when he finally does.

Yeah, pretty much. In both cases the Clerith assumptions were torpedoed in the next game released as well.

[quoe]Well, Zack is "like a puppy" as Sephiroth himself put it....[/quote]
But can Rinoa launch him out of a wrist cannon?

On that note, what is the best translation for the "Do you love me?" page? Some translations I see have "even if she waited until morning" and some have "even though she waited until morning". One is a hell of a lot more on the nose than the other and would make my life easier if that was the more accurate translation.

Regardless, nobody will ever convince me that Tifa, who is supposedly not a 'clingy' woman, would ever do something as creepy as sneaking into Cloud's room, waiting for him to fall asleep, and then whispering pressing questions into his ear. It's almost like she had a reason to be close enough to him while he was falling asleep that she could tell he was asleep in the first place, and I wonder what it could be.

I'd need to see the origjnal japanese text to figure that out.

Quote anybody to contradict a Clerith, really.

In this case it was quote one to contradict the same one.

They really need to start asking themselves why Ultimania references and quotes aren't relevant, but Cloud and Aerith going on a walk in a spinoff game's opening is proof that Square Enix is trying to get us to pick up on. Like some kind of trail of breadcrumbs.

It's very much a case of missing the blatantly obvious to focus on the obscure and the irrelevant.

The only reason I can't really see Tifa being the 'canon' Rosa is because it means that Tifa's date happened that night, and we all know what that means. Revealing their feelings for each other is kind of supposed to be a lifestream sequence thing.

It doesn't change the fact that Cloud would jump at the chance to swap spit with Tifa, and not a certain other party, though. Nothing will ever change that.

I mean, mechanically the Rosa actress matches the lady that you date if you get a lady result. I actually wish there had been more Rosa variation for the Barret, Red, and Grump dates. Maybe have it be Tifa, Aerith and Yuffie respectively.

On the topic of Jenova, it's sort of a hivemind right? Do we think the concept of Jenova was partially inspired by John Carpenter's 'The Thing' because I can 100% see it if so. That is, if I'm remembering things correctly.

Well, in the early scripts Jenova was a state of being like super saiyan or enlightenment, and we also know that some of the early game elements got shuffled off to Parasite Eve, so.... yeah, it's entirely possible. I don't know if we have confirmation on the Thing inspiration or that Jenova is technically a hivemind in the sense that each body shares the same thoughts, or if it's more of a mind that can force itself on anything that contains its cells.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Hmm I think Rosa's dress was designed in a way that all the girls could wear it without looking weird and it could fit whoever was in the scene without clashing with the story. So basically with all of them in mind. And they all get differences.

But I also noticed on Aerith it looks pretty much like her prism dress in Ever Crisis and Zack gets the prince outfit in Ever Crisis and I really think that's an intentional choice as well with bringing more Loveless references and connecting that to Crisis Core.

Aerith from all the girls also already had the Loveless connection since OG because that's the street we meet her. Also staff wielder white mage.

Tifa has no Loveless connections so they gave her dialogue related to the promise and the staff look similar to her symbol if that's true and not coincidence then a special trophy and Yuffie they gave quirky delivery.

Basically Rosa is supposed to be played by different girls so they gave each of them something unique. But the dress is the same for all three. There is no difference like with the Wallmarket dresses nor the beach outfits which were personalized. Here it's not which tells me it was meant to fit all three.

It being a Greek style dress also can match the Minerva CC reference with Aerith or the reference of Selene (daughter of Thea) with Tifa. With either of them it fits rather perfectly.

With Yuffie being the daughter of Godo and having an implied crush on Zack can fit.

Yuffie also got her own costume earlier as the idol. And Aerith gets the singers dress. Tifa didn't so this can also count as a new outfit for her.

Basically killing multiple birds with one stone. I definitely think the dress was designed for all three girls.

However if it was ever revealed Aerith is the default scene Rosa for some reason and the Alphried counterpart has some Zack symbolism going on I honestly wouldn't be surprised in the slightest. Because Loveless is also a giant Crisis Core reference besides the place we meet her.

Edit: Elaboration

 

[Sacky]

Hmm I think Rosa's dress was designed in a way that all the girls could wear it without looking weird and it could fit whoever was in the scene without clashing with the story. So basically with all of them in mind. And they all get differences.

But I also noticed on Aerith it looks pretty much like her prism dress in Ever Crisis and Zack gets the prince outfit in Ever Crisis and I really think that's an intentional choice as well with bringing more Loveless references and connecting that to Crisis Core.

Aerith from all the girls also already had the Loveless connection since OG because that's the street we meet her. Also staff wielder white mage.

Tifa has no Loveless connections so they gave her dialogue related to the promise and the staff look similar to her symbol if that's true and not coincidence then a special trophy and Yuffie they gave quirky delivery.

Basically Rosa is supposed to be played by different girls so they gave each of them something unique. But the dress is the same for all three. There is no difference like with the Wallmarket dresses not the beach outfits which were personalized. Here it's not which tells me it was meant to fit all three.

It being a Greek style dress also can match the Minerva CC reference with Aerith or the reference of Selene (daughter of Thea) with Tifa. With either of them it fits rather perfectly.

However if it was ever revealed Aerith is the default scene Rosa and the Alphried counterpart has some Zack symbolism going on I honestly wouldn't be surprised in the slightest. Because Loveless is also a giant Crisis Core reference.

Really can you explain further how Its a crisis core reference apart from obviously genesis storyline. I've heard theories it's advent children, or the Jenova war

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Really can you explain further how Its a crisis core reference apart from obviously genesis storyline. I've heard theories it's advent children, or the Jenova war

The poem Genesis recites is an allusion to the plot of Crisis Core not just his own story but the situation of the soldiers and how the cells turn them to monsters too. The Goddess is Minerva (goddess of wisdom). The gift of the goddess is knowledge. This is the forbidden science that leads to using Jenova cells to experiment on people turning them to Super Soldiers sought by Shinra who thought she was a Cetra and basically a "goddess".
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And the "apple" is a reference to forbidden knowledge and the Gnostic version of Adam and Eve or Lilith in that case which casts them out of paradise, soldiers turn to monsters demons because Shinra played god. That's why Banora is known for apples. All the symbolism of Loveless however also represents not just Genesis but also what happens to Sephiroth and Angeal as well. "Three friends go into battle. One is captured One flies away. The one that is left becomes a hero." This is the prisoner, the traveler and the hero from the play. These friends are references to Genesis Sephiroth and Angeal. And there's a scene were Genesis reads from Loveless as it shows all three doing a mock battle. The one in which he gets hurt. He learns he is an experiment a failed one and is falling apart. To cope he reenacts scenes from Loveless and seeks revenge.

We can also apply some references to Zack who takes up Angeals mantle and becomes the hero but ends up the prisoner to Shinra like Angeal did as well. Genesis deserts (flies away). Sephiroth also matches the "hero" from Genesis story. He also deserts.Genesis wishes he was the hero but is a failure doomed to die.

And we can even say Cloud another "prisoner" also takes up the hero's mantle Zack after through circumstances.

So yeah we can apply it several ways but overall Loveless is a huge Crisis Core story reference
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Even if the morrow is barren of promises (Anyone notice this? Even if there's no promises to keep
Nothing shall forestall my return (we'll meet again/reunion)

To become the dew that quenches the land
To spare the sands, the seas, the skies I offer thee this silent sacrifice (but basically anyone with the gift of the goddess dies we have characters dying of degradation or fate)

(as does our 3 friends except technically Genesis just seals himself but he is our POV for the poem, Zack and well the singer Aerith too if we want to connect that with her song)

Loveless had similar lines in OG too. Cid in OG says he fell asleep at the play and quotes the final act. I forgot this myself.

"Do you really have to leave?"
"I promised. The people I love, are waiting."
"...I don't understand. Not at all. But... please take care of yourself."
"Of course... I'll come back to you. Even if you don't promise to wait. I'll return knowing you'll be here."

So No Promises To Keep lyrics, literally Aerith's song are undeniably linked to Loveless as well. And the story is linked to Crisis Core/Reunion Zack's game.

So yeah. Let's just say I see a lot of connections here.


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Loveless

Loveless, also stylized as LOVELESS, is an epic from the world of Final Fantasy VII that has made several cameo appearances in the Final Fantasy VII series and plays a major role in Crisis Core -Final Fantasy VII-. Originating as a book of poetry, the story has been adapted into a musical stage...

finalfantasy.fandom.com

There is added stuff and dialogue in Rebirth to include the Dragon King play from OG which is Not Loveless. But the Ever Crisis promotion giving Aerith a similar dress and Zack a prince outfit to match tells me that's not just coincidence. Loveless being literally the street we meet Aerith on it makes sense to connect that with CC. Also she literally sings about Loveless street in NPTK and those signature lyrics being a bit too close to the poem.

Edit: Elaboration and source added

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

All of us asked him the same thing at the time.
Honestly I'm pretty sure he never did it, just claimed he did. AA came across as a bit of a fabulist.

Oh he totally did it, and then celebrated the W he'd just gotten fir Aerith by taking the kids out for kids meals at WacDonald's /sarcasm

Specifcally, they refuse to admit that Cloud was in his promised land because he no longer felt alone and like he could go home and be with Tifa again, not because he just happened to be in the church.

It takes a special kind of denial to play/watch the compilation unfold and still think of The Promised Land as a physical location of any sort.

The Promised Land is a state of mind.

If you watch the actual ending, each of the playable heroes has a goodby message.

Cloud stands up in the same field and says "Not Interested."

I remember pointing out that if this somehow was about Aerith, his choice of words wasn't exactly encouraging.

Y'ain't wrong.

High praise from the Admiral. Hold your head high soldier.

Oh, you never argue to convince your opponent. You argue for the benefit of the audience.

Also for the lulz. They may be secondary in importance, but still vital.

It's a reasonable assumption but we actually don't know. 7th heaven is evacuated very early on and we only later see them during the big deepground mission. But it seems reasonable, yes.

You can expect to be nuh-uhed if you say so to a CAltist of course. Because obviously that can't be right for... reasons? Assuming they don't just try slut shaming Tifa by implying she's bunking with Barret. I've seen it happen, it's not nice.

Against expectations, in this case Gacha solved something.

By ruining it for them

Quote a Clerith to contradict that Clerith happened on more than one occasion.

Daily or more at one time.

At least a few of them admitted it I think.

Yep, some seemed truly proud of it. T'was nuts.

Aerith flirts with everyone in the spinoff games and everyone thinks Zack is the player. Where is the justice.

THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THE IS JUST ME :REAPERMON:

Touche.

I wish we had a smiley that's equivalent to a polite nod of gratitude and acknowledgement. Since we don't, we go all purpose

I think she was trying to score a blow by using my own words against me, the problem being that the words she chose were from years ago at that point and ones I was using for emphasis, not as the crux of a point.

I stand by my assertion that she never knew how those words worked. It was like an opponent taking your sword and trying to use it against you only to cut their own throat. Repeatedly.

Perhaps it is more accurate to say BB's brain broke as a result of repeatedly bashing it against me to the point of self harm.

This is BB's brain. This is BB's brain on Ryu. Any questions?

It's the nature of the Koroks. And Kokiri.

And even Krorks, to a lesser extent.

BB is perhaps the dictionary example for "Extremist Clerith" these days.

Did they get even worse or did things in general get a bit better? It's a bit of both, right?

Hmmm, that won't do. It really ought to be Jay Gerrick.

That is funnier. I'll take it, even if it misses the Linda reference.

Better a game delayed than a game forever terrible.

Exactly. Also requires less toxic work practices to beat crunch that way.

Like, I worry about AA sometimes that's how strange the lad was.

They had a nonstandard outlook for sure. Had a hint of creeper with a side of unhealthy fixation if I remember rightly.

If you're going to be a fucker, at least be good at being a fucker.

And if you're good at something never do it for free! ...wait no.

Pretty much, yes.

But is it VEGETA YES!?

I'm curious what the ratios are like elsewhere.

If you decide to satisfy that curiosity do tell.

Was this a local presenter you were thinking of?

Sort of, he was a local reporter but not local to anywhere I ever lived He was out of L.A. but I saw him on several national reports where they cut to a local and mistook him for national. Although at this point I guess a 90's reporter is old timey isn't he?

Fuck I'm old.

"You need to cheat more subtly" Tifa chimes in. "So we don't catch you at least."

Sounds right.

He's seen some shit.

Oh my, yes. I'm impressed how thoroughly his Rebirth face modeling conveys that.

They're good for a berserker rampage, and there was need of that back then.
Also for throwing.

Funny, I actually prefer a scimitar or two for berserk rampage time. To each their own if course. Axe definitely throws better if course. Just remember rule one.

Like, show the film to someone as just "the spirits within" and they'll probably see it more favorably than if you call it Final Fantasy.

Agreed.

Fair.

If not even higher.

Are we back to weed dealer Aerith? Cause I was having the beginning of a good one for Great Gospel.

Not subtle in the slightest, no.

Like a sledgehammer.

Fair point.

Again,

I meant the source point for the lie, rather than the motivation, but true enough.

Fair point to you. Determining the origin of said lie is if course much harder. Even blatant lies aren't usually pulled wholesale out of someone's ass, but what was the basis?

So much boils down to that yes.

Tis true. Would be great if we could at least get some variety.

You just gotta fold a bit of space here and there. No biggy.

I'm not handy enough for that kinda home improvement

 

[imach0c0]

The poem Genesis recites is an allusion to the plot of Crisis Core not just his own story but the situation of the soldiers and how the cells turn them to monsters too. The Goddess is Minerva (goddess of wisdom). The gift of the goddess is knowledge. This is the forbidden science that leads to using Jenova cells to experiment on people turning them to Super Soldiers sought by Shinra who thought she was a Cetra and basically a "goddess".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the "apple" is a reference to forbidden knowledge and the Gnostic version of Adam and Eve or Lilith in that case which casts them out of paradise, soldiers turn to monsters demons because Shinra played god. That's why Banora is known for apples. All the symbolism of Loveless however also represents not just Genesis but also what happens to Sephiroth and Angeal as well. "Three friends go into battle. One is captured One flies away. The one that is left becomes a hero." This is the prisoner, the traveler and the hero from the play. These friends are Genesis Sephiroth and Angeal.

We can also apply some to Zack who takes up Angeals mantle and becomes the hero but ends up the prisoner to Shinra like Angeal did as well. Genesis deserts (flies away). Sephiroth also matches the "hero" from Genesis story. He also deserts.

And we can even say Cloud another "prisoner" also takes up the hero's mantle Zack

So yeah we can apply it several ways but overall Loveless is a huge Crisis Core story reference
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even if the morrow is barren of promises (Even if there's no promises to keep
Nothing shall forestall my return (we'll meet again/reunion)


To become the dew that quenches the land
To spare the sands, the seas, the skies I offer thee this silent sacrifice (but basically anyone with the gift of the goddess dies degradation and fate)

(as does Angeal, Zack our hero)

while Genesis will probably also return if we take the POV to be about Genesis)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Loveless

Loveless, also stylized as LOVELESS, is an epic from the world of Final Fantasy VII that has made several cameo appearances in the Final Fantasy VII series and plays a major role in Crisis Core -Final Fantasy VII-. Originating as a book of poetry, the story has been adapted into a musical stage...

finalfantasy.fandom.com

There is added stuff and dialogue in Rebirth to include the Dragon King play from OG which is Not Loveless. But the Ever Crisis promotion giving Aerith a similar dress and Zack a prince outfit to match tells me that's not just coincidence. Loveless being literally the street we meet Aerith on it makes sense to connect that with CC. Also she literally sings about Loveless street in NPTK and those signature lyrics being a bit too close to the poem to be nothing.

Edit: Elaboration and source added

Some other things that could be a coincidence or intentional references:

The play is called: "Loveless - G Edition" (G could allude to it being related Genesis)

Cloud is Zack's living legacy - this could be a reference to Cloud taking the "hero" mantle

In one of the battles, Cloud uses two swords - perhaps its a representation of Zack and Cloud

To add on to the point of the EC Zack and Aerith costumes:
In Remake, there is a Loveless brochure (I believe its the one from Jessie's house), that has the princess and prince on it. The silhouettes of prince/princess costumes look similar to the white gown (Aerith) and royal blue outfit (Zack) from EC

In the opening of Rebirth, when Zack holds Aerith, he says to her (JP): 帰ってきたぞ (I have returned to you)
In the Loveless play, Alphreid tells Rosa (JP): もちろん　ここに帰ってくれるよ (Of course, I'll come back to you here)

Note: The English translation of the JP dialogue is rough. Feel free to correct it.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Some other things that could be a coincidence or intentional references:

The play is called: "Loveless - G Edition" (G could allude to it being related Genesis)

Cloud is Zack's living legacy - this could be a reference to Cloud taking the "hero" mantle

In one of the battles, Cloud uses two swords - perhaps its a representation of Zack and Cloud

To add on to the point of the EC Zack and Aerith costumes:
In Remake, there is a Loveless brochure (I believe its the one from Jessie's house), that has the princess and prince on it. The silhouettes of prince/princess costumes look similar to the white gown (Aerith) and royal blue outfit (Zack)

In the opening of Rebirth, when Zack holds Aerith, he says to her (JP): 帰ってきたぞ (I have returned to you)
In the Loveless play, Alphreid tells Rosa (JP): もちろん　ここに帰ってくれるよ (Of course, I'll come back to you here)

Note: The English translation of the JP dialogue is rough. Feel free to correct it.

Yeah exactly that too. Loveless is in OG already with those lines but the compilation made it a Crisis Core thing with making Crisis Core's plot match up with the scenes Genesis reads.

And again Loveless has always been associated with Aerith because that is literally the street we meet her in OG while in Crisis Core it's more connected to Genesis Angeal and Sephiroth it's also connected to Zack and Rebirth clearly made that connection even more prominent. Especially with Aerith literally singing the last stanzas of the poem and with their outfits and Zack's lines in the beginning.

In Ever Crisis Aerith also gets Genesis's outfit. These choices seem extremely intentional to me.

Also further to connect to Rebirth "Three friends go into battle. One is captured. One flies away. One becomes a hero." We can also say our three friends here are Sephiroth Zack and Cloud. Zack is captured Sephiroth deserts flew away and Cloud is left to become the hero. And that again connects the story to Crisis Core the origin of it all.

 

[imach0c0]

Yeah exactly that too. Loveless is in OG already with those lines but the compilation made it a crisis core thing with making crisis cores plot match up with the scenes Genesis reads.

And again Loveless has always been associated with Aerith because that is literally the street we meet her in OG while in Crisis Core it's more connected to Genesis Angeal and Sephiroth it's also connected to Zack and Rebirth clearly made that connection even more prominent. Especially with Aerith literally singing the last stanzas of the poem and with their outfits and Zack's lines in the beginning.

Yea I agree.

I liked the reference to OG with Cid sleeping in the audience during the NPTK song. lol

Regarding the word "loveless," this in a way can be a reference to Aerith and Zack's tragedy because he doesn't return to Aerith, thus leaving her "loveless"

In CC, Aerith's last words to Zack as well his final memory of Aerith is her saying: 待ってる (I'll wait for you)
Not sure if its intentional but in JP, Alphreid says to Rosa: 約束なんかなくても　待っていてくれる人がいること　俺は知ってるから (Even if there is no promise, I know there is someone waiting for me)

Note: The ENG translation is rough. Feel free to correct.

In CC, I think at one point, Genesis referred to Zack as the gift of the goddess because he thought his s-cells would cure his degradation. (I have to double check so this info may be inaccurate)

 

[imach0c0]

In Ever Crisis Aerith also gets Genesis's outfit. These choices seem extremely intentional to me.

As soon as I saw that outfit, I could not unsee the Genesis lol.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Yea I agree.

I liked the reference to OG with Cid sleeping in the audience during the NPTK song. lol

Regarding the word "loveless," this in a way can be a reference to Aerith and Zack's tragedy because he doesn't return to Aerith, thus leaving her "loveless"

In CC, Aerith's last words to Zack as well his final memory of Aerith is her saying: 待ってる (I'll wait for you)
Not sure if its intentional but in JP, Alphreid says to Rosa: 約束なんかなくても　待っていてくれる人がいること　俺は知ってるから (Even if there is no promise, I know there is someone waiting for me)

Note: The ENG translation is rough. Feel free to correct.

In CC, I think at one point, Genesis referred to Zack as the gift of the goddess because he thought his s-cells would cure his degradation. (I have to double check so this info may be inaccurate)

Yeah the gift of the goddess is technically S cells in Genesis's point of view, that specialness than can also save his life. G cells are basically a damnation upon the SOLDIERS. And Genesis literally are reference to Adam and Eve and the apple of knowledge. He and Angeal (Angel) are the fruit of the G project. But Genesis failed while Angeal "suceeded." He is jealous he can't be the hero and traumatized at the knowledge he is a failed experiment.

But even though he is obssesed with the play and the apple juice contest winner and he should be the chosen one. By all counts he doesn't have the gift from the goddess. He is not the hero he learns is destined to die. And he wants vengeance. To cope with the trauma he basically reeanacts Loveless with his friends Sephiroth and Angeal as the role of the friends.

So LOVELESS in that sense is also the situation of Genesis and the failed experiments thrown away by fate to be used as pawns on the battlefield or left to die due to forbidden knowledge and Shinra playing god. Which is literally the plot of Crisis Core.

And the love story part is the final act, Aerith's song and we have lines from Zack where he is connected to Alphreid. Aerith who is also technically Shinra's chosen one with the gift of knowledge used by them as a pawn.

Cloud is kinda an imposter in the sense he is mimicking Zack but gets the mantle of true hero anyway through Zack's legacy as our new protagonist and meets Aerith through fate on Loveless Street the love of Crisis Core's protagonist who he dies trying to return to. Cloud who also gets experimented on...Hence the connection to our current story..

I think Loveless the play is serving as these connections to Crisis Core/Reunion basically. (Literally called reunion)

 

[Empyrea]

I vaguely recall someone writing up a MST3k-style response to that fic.

I forgot who it was, but I actually read that response. It's how I know of that particular nightmare of a fic in the first place

 

[Eerie]

While I agree that Loveless is very CC and ZA - thus Aerith - coded, I simply think the dress was made with Tifa in mind or she wouldn’t have any new outfit in GS. The design is very Tifa-esque, with the leather and the straps and the very visible breasts support. Then it’s been retrofitted to Aerith and Yuffie but honestly, I don’t think either looks really good in it.

I wouldn’t be surprised that if there was a GS outfit figurine, Aerith would be in her singer dress, Yuffie in her green dress and Tifa in the Rosa dress.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

While I agree that Loveless is very CC and ZA - thus Aerith - coded, I simply think the dress was made with Tifa in mind or she wouldn’t have any new outfit in GS. The design is very Tifa-esque, with the leather and the straps and the very visible breasts support. Then it’s been retrofitted to Aerith and Yuffie but honestly, I don’t think either looks really good in it.

I wouldn’t be surprised that if there was a GS outfit figurine, Aerith would be in her singer dress, Yuffie in her green dress and Tifa in the Rosa dress.

Yeah I could see the dress itself being designed to fit Tifa since she would be missing an outfit otherwise. They need to make sure she would look good in it so I could see it as used her as a model for the dress itself. I think they all look great.

However I definitely don't think the role of Rosa itself would fit Tifa or even Yuffie as the default Rosa character. It fits Aerith the most to have that role even without the dress simply because of her connection to Loveless that was already there. She could be in the singer dress and still fit Rosa with no problem and no additions. Which is probably why Aerith is Rosa in the other scenes too. Technically speaking I would say yes she is "default Rosa". Her song is also technically "Rosa's" response to "Alphreid". And regardless of who plays Rosa this doesn't change.

But I think they were aware of that and wanted any girl to fit Rosa regardless of the dress or lore connection so the plays have choices in them where all three girls can fit in the play without an issue. This included adding things like the dialogue and spin scenes where each interaction is unique. And addition of the trophy with Tifa getting a role onstage.

Also Jessie basically having her original role be Rosa as well.

The Loveless play also being combined with the Dragon King play let's it be closer to the GC date in OG with each play being unique as well so all characters can fit seamlessly.

 

[abzy1200]

Love how Tifa is characterized, but I need Cloud to make some gains as a desirable domestic partner for the sake of his character.

In-universe everyone seems to understand that, but no one takes it to its logical conclusion. Normally someone like that isn't an ideal partner for a grown woman, and definitely isn't ready for a family.

Normally yes, but I mean, Cloud displays more maturity than a 16 year old, so I don't think the mental age gap is really that big, despite the technicality of it. He is running a business and at the start of CoT he's the one encouraging Tifa that everything will be ok, that he'll be there to remind her of how strong she is, so it's not like he doesn't try to be supportive emotionally. It's only when he falls into his own bout of depression does this encouragement dissappear, but then again the depression is largely gone by the end of Advent Children.

Might I also add, that at the start of CoT, Cloud is very much trying his best to be supportive, and Tifa herself acknowledges that he is trying for her despite his glaring personal issues:

Cloud wasn’t the best at socializing, or more accurately, he was downright awful at it. Yet, he would go negotiate with people to obtain the ingredients they needed, everyday, without objection or complaint. The process of negotiating carried more value than the price he paid. Cloud was taking small steps forward.

He’s pushing himself too hard for me. Will he leave one day, once the bar gets on the right track?

I'd also like to add that Denzel looked up to Cloud specifically. Tifa also thinks he resembles a young dad, so there's that aswell. He couldn't have been that terrible of a father figure.

Hell, even as a child he displays some emotional maturity/development beyond that of the other boys his age:

1. Even though Cloud knew the truth about what happened on the mountain, he chose to take the blame for it because he thought it would bring Tifa shame if he told the truth. He did this as an 8(?) year old boy. The other boys immediately lied to cover their own hides, and never owned up to it, at that.

Not to mention the bravery needed to follow her up the mountain, something the other boys also lacked.

2. Not seeing Tifa as a trophy to be won. Atleast one of the other boys sent Tifa a letter that implied he owned her.

tl;dr: Cloud doesn't get it right all the time when it comes to their relationship, but he tries, and it's not plausible for a relationship to be flawless, so I don't know where the idea that Cloud is necessarily an 'undesirable' partner for Tifa comes from, weird technical mental age gap or not.

He claimed they thought Aerith was the love interest without having any prior FF7 knowledge, but again, what the ever loving fuck.

Why am I not surprised?

I remember the argument for this one was "He's wearing the sleeve again so we don't know if he's wearing it or not so he still is!"

"I can't prove my statement, but since you can't prove yours the only logical conclusion is that I'm right!"

I'd honestly argue that there is evidence he isn't wearing it anymore. Nobody else is, first off. Second off, refer back to the message that Advent Children is trying to bash you over the head with: moving on.

No, that's all correct. The flower field is where they promise to reunite if they're ever separated and don't know where the other has gotten off to. It's extremely important to them and to the plot, showing up in the opening seconds of the game. Actually, people have made the argument that the entire game actually 'happens' while Squall is stuck in time compression trying to find his way back there, that what we're playing is his memories of the events instead of the events themselves, which is bizarre but makes a certain amount of sense given time fuckery and feelings are how you fight them.

It's best not to try make sense of Final Fantasy 8, we're all better off that way. Time travel will always create weird paradoxes one way or another.

Yeah, pretty much. In both cases the Clerith assumptions were torpedoed in the next game released as well.

Even excluding the obvious 'Tifa is his light who he's running away from, same as he was in Advent Children', a Clerith narrative for Kingdom Hearts two is especially ridiculous.

Do these people really think Nomura went through the effort to make such a mockery of Tifa? That she runs around Hollow Bastion looking under tables and banging on walls trying to find a guy who doesn't love her and is actively running away from her as if she's some crazy person, while he is apparently searching for his lost love (Aerith), and that Nomura was okay with this portrayal of her? I'm speechless, but tbh what's new?

But can Rinoa launch him out of a wrist cannon?

The real question is; is Aerith into Zack being launched out of a wrist cannon?

In this case it was quote one to contradict the same one.

All too easy. Everytime. Hell, quote Aerith herself to contradict a Clerith.

It's very much a case of missing the blatantly obvious to focus on the obscure and the irrelevant.

"He can wear her ribbon in Final Fantasy Tactics!" pfffft

I mean, mechanically the Rosa actress matches the lady that you date if you get a lady result. I actually wish there had been more Rosa variation for the Barret, Red, and Grump dates. Maybe have it be Tifa, Aerith and Yuffie respectively.

It doesn't really matter either way, Loveless is one big Crisis Core reference anyway, it certainly isn't Clerith-coded.

Well, in the early scripts Jenova was a state of being like super saiyan or enlightenment, and we also know that some of the early game elements got shuffled off to Parasite Eve, so.... yeah, it's entirely possible. I don't know if we have confirmation on the Thing inspiration or that Jenova is technically a hivemind in the sense that each body shares the same thoughts, or if it's more of a mind that can force itself on anything that contains its cells.

The reason I say it is because Jenova is an alien who crash landed at one of the poles, then it shape shifts into those around you to fool you. At a base level it just sounds similar, so that's why I bring it up.

I'd say Jenova is technically a hivemind, all of the blackrobes had the same intention, to 'reunite' with each other at the 'reunion'. So there's atleast some evidence to support it.

 

[Eerie]

@LunarTarotGirl Just to make sure, I am only talking about the dress for the role it’s clear to me that it doesn’t fit Tifa. But then I also don’t think Cloud fits anyway - although he does if he takes it as Zack. Which is interesting since I feel he takes his role in the gondola as a stand-in for Zack too with Aerith.