SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yoru]

Something I've always thought about is how you could remove Aerith from the game and the only substantial difference would be that the ending changes. As far as I can remember, Cloud's character arc goes completely unchanged.

However, if you remove Tifa you need to rewrite the entire game.

It's as if the character of Tifa had been created as an afterthought because Aerith was there for shock value and we needed another female character to link up with the hero to keep us interested until the end of the game... oh wait.

 

[Ryushikaze]

They didn't even say it was an rpg did they?

Nope. Closest was calling it an epic adventure.

Well, I could see an easy workaround for that, that because of the Jenova cells, he refused to assimilate like Sephiroth did, no?

He avoided the lifestream entirely, because he had a backup plan involving a giant pool of stagnant mako and another WEAPON.

At this point they really are going to have do a livestream like they did with NPTK with the announcement of what's actually going on here, because if part 3 doesn't get the message across, nothing will.

Maaya and Briana may need to make the announcement in character as Aerith for it to sink in.

Masato Katou also wrote in a similar scene to UTH into Xenogears, didn't he?

Yes. Very early on in the story, in fact.

Surely. Really don't put it past them, though.

I mean, it fits with the "CT have been assaulting and abusing us since the game's release" victim narrative they have going.
I was there in the day. No one was fucking innocent. No one.

Tifa literally says it lmao: "Hey, Cloud? Y'know when we were kids and you'd always be...y'know, watching me?"

First thing he does when he got home to Nibelheim was sit atop the water tower and stare at Tifa's house.

Cloud knows what he likes to look at and does so.

Honestly, the whole angle of adding more angst to Zerith with that Marlene interaction kinda rubs me the wrong way...was there not already enough angst between Zack and Aerith? You had to add even more?

I have to think that entire sequence is supposed to be shorthand for telling us what a good guy zack is for anyone that hasn't played CC/R, not for the 'angst.'

Just can't stop spreading juicy rumours about who fancies who

She lives for it.

Something I've always thought about is how you could remove Aerith from the game and the only substantial difference would be that the ending changes. As far as I can remember, Cloud's character arc goes completely unchanged.

You need to come up with a way for the party to meet Red XIII otherwise you miss out on his story and a lot of lore dump, but yes, Aerith is a valued member of the team but she sort of by design not vital to the furtherance of the character plots.

However, if you remove Tifa you need to rewrite the entire game.

Even if you just skip her scenes rather than rewrite it becomes an incredibly disjointed mess.

 

[abzy1200]

He avoided the lifestream entirely, because he had a backup plan involving a giant pool of stagnant mako and another WEAPON.

Always heard this game was terrible - damn.

Maaya and Briana may need to make the announcement in character as Aerith for it to sink in.

Put it in part 3.

I mean, it fits with the "CT have been assaulting and abusing us since the game's release" victim narrative they have going.
I was there in the day. No one was fucking innocent. No one.

No one is innocent still, not even artists who like the Legend of Zelda.

Cloud knows what he likes to look at and does so.

Has been since childhood and continues to do so for the rest of his life.

I have to think that entire sequence is supposed to be shorthand for telling us what a good guy zack is for anyone that hasn't played CC/R, not for the 'angst.'

Yeah, but was the rest of the game not enough? Excluding that scene, if somebody was to think Zack was anything but a good guy it really wouldn't be Square's fault.

You need to come up with a way for the party to meet Red XIII otherwise you miss out on his story and a lot of lore dump, but yes, Aerith is a valued member of the team but she sort of by design not vital to the furtherance of the character plots.

They're at least having her make a mark on Cloud's psyche this time around.

Even if you just skip her scenes rather than rewrite it becomes an incredibly disjointed mess.

Probably why some of these people have such different reads of the game. They skipped said important scenes.

 

[imach0c0]

Honestly, the whole angle of adding more angst to Zerith with that Marlene interaction kinda rubs me the wrong way...was there not already enough angst between Zack and Aerith? You had to add even more?

I think that scene served more than one purpose:

1. Zack's selfless character
Although we get an idea of how kind he is (in which he is always helping others), this is first time we see him get tested in regards to something very important to him (his love for Aerith). The fact that Zack is willing to sacrifice his feelings to do what's best for the greater good (and possible let Aerith go) not only shows how pure and unconditional his love for Aerith is, but it shows that he is simply a genuine person.

2. Angst
This makes Zack more likeable which in turn makes the player sympathize with Zack and want to root for him. To me, this will add more satisfaction to the payoff (if he gets one).

3. Narrative setup
Zack needs to be aware of Aerith's true feelings before he can be with her. Now that he has this information, I imagine he will be the one to bring it up to Aerith.

On a side note - I find it interesting that scene was placed right before the dream date sequence. Although it sets up the idea that Aerith has "feelings" for Cloud, by the end of the dream date, Aerith doesn't know what "suki" she has for Cloud.

 

[abzy1200]

I think that scene served more than one purpose:

1. Zack's selfless character
Although we get an idea of how kind he is (in which he is always helping others), this is first time we see him get tested in regards to something very important to him (his love for Aerith). The fact that Zack is willing to sacrifice his feelings to do what's best for the greater good (and possible let Aerith go) not only shows how pure and unconditional his love for Aerith is, but it shows that he is simply a genuine person.

2. Angst
This makes Zack more likeable which in turn makes the player sympathize with Zack and want to root for him. To me, this will add more satisfaction to the payoff (if he gets one).

3. Narrative setup
Zack needs to be aware of Aerith's true feelings before he can be with her. Now that he has this information, I imagine he will be the one to bring it up to Aerith.

On a side note - I find it interesting that scene was placed right before the dream date sequence. Although it sets up the idea that Aerith has "feelings" for Cloud, by the end of the dream date, Aerith doesn't know what "suki" she has for Cloud.

Deep down I know it's purpose, it's just that obviously they didn't swing the sledgehammer hard enough on Aerith being confused about her feelings to get it through to people. Now I'm going to have to listen to them moan for the next 3 years about how much Aerith is head over heels for Cloud and has completely and utterly forgotten about Zack. That's where my frustration is coming from.

And yeah, I feel like it was placed before the dream date for a reason, Marlene introduces the idea of Aerith liking Cloud, and then Aerith herself elaborates a bit more on it.

Thanks, anyway.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Deep down I know it's purpose, it's just that obviously they didn't swing the sledgehammer hard enough on Aerith being confused about her feelings to get it through to people. Now I'm going to have to listen to them moan for the next 3 years about how much Aerith is head over heels for Cloud and has completely and utterly forgotten about Zack. That's where my frustration is coming from.

And yeah, I feel like it was placed before the dream date for a reason, Marlene introduces the idea of Aerith liking Cloud, and then Aerith herself elaborates a bit more on it.

Thanks, anyway.

Yeah, it just opens up for bad takes, and I’m not entirely sure it was necessary to do so… unless the goal really is to show that Cloud’s more aloof personality just doesn’t match to what Aerith is really looking for.

Even then, ehh maybe I’ll appreciate it more in retrospect. Just let my man Zack be happy lol

 

[imach0c0]

Yeah, it just opens up for bad takes, and I’m not entirely sure it was necessary to do so… unless the goal really is to show that Cloud’s more aloof personality just doesn’t match to what Aerith is really looking for.

Even then, ehh maybe I’ll appreciate it more in retrospect. Just let my man Zack be happy lol

I think part of what also makes it confusing is the LA and HA versions and what purpose they serve. Especially if the general player has no awareness of that.

 

[imach0c0]

Deep down I know it's purpose, it's just that obviously they didn't swing the sledgehammer hard enough on Aerith being confused about her feelings to get it through to people. Now I'm going to have to listen to them moan for the next 3 years about how much Aerith is head over heels for Cloud and has completely and utterly forgotten about Zack. That's where my frustration is coming from.

And yeah, I feel like it was placed before the dream date for a reason, Marlene introduces the idea of Aerith liking Cloud, and then Aerith herself elaborates a bit more on it.

Thanks, anyway.

I hear you. Shipping fandoms aside, do you have insight on what the takeaway or interpretation of that scene was from the general player base?

And no problem.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Always heard this game was terrible - damn.

It has a lot of problems, yes. Ironically part of the problem is that only Vincent gets to be a badass. That may sound odd in his own game, but the entire endgame involves the OG party in a calvary charge to give him cover to do a special ops force, but he still winds up dealing with a lot of the characters he's supposed to be eluding. Even if we didn't get playable segments for like Cloud and Yuffie, there are deepgrounds who are their opposites and it would have been great to have had them assisting in the boss fights.

Put it in part 3.

Just a sudden stop, turn to the camera. Flat announce "I am in love with Zack. Cloud is in love with Tifa" turn back, resume scene as if nothing happened.

No one is innocent still, not even artists who like the Legend of Zelda.

What I'm talking about is that everyone was slinging shit at everyone all the time back in the pre-AC days. And I can't speak for the fandom as a whole, but I definitely didn't fire the first shots.

Has been since childhood and continues to do so for the rest of his life.

Maybe even beyond.

Yeah, but was the rest of the game not enough? Excluding that scene, if somebody was to think Zack was anything but a good guy it really wouldn't be Square's fault.

We got very little time with Zack, so I can understand laying it on thick.

They're at least having her make a mark on Cloud's psyche this time around.

Yeah, you can actually see the reason why everyone in the party, Cloud included, would feel so strongly about her death.

Probably why some of these people have such different reads of the game. They skipped said important scenes.

I mean we know plenty people have not yet played the game itself for lack of a PS5 or whatever. I legit believe a bunch of them are outright not watching the Tifa scenes with the absurd BS takes they have.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Yeah, drop the story of DoC, let me fight the bosses with the whole party, and toss in Omega as an optional boss and call it a day.

 

[abzy1200]

It has a lot of problems, yes. Ironically part of the problem is that only Vincent gets to be a badass. That may sound odd in his own game, but the entire endgame involves the OG party in a calvary charge to give him cover to do a special ops force, but he still winds up dealing with a lot of the characters he's supposed to be eluding. Even if we didn't get playable segments for like Cloud and Yuffie, there are deepgrounds who are their opposites and it would have been great to have had them assisting in the boss fights.

Yuffie's not even playable? I thought that game was trying to show some love for less-important characters of the main cast?

Just a sudden stop, turn to the camera. Flat announce "I am in love with Zack. Cloud is in love with Tifa" turn back, resume scene as if nothing happened.

Then she kisses Zack, and then cut to UTH.

What I'm talking about is that everyone was slinging shit at everyone all the time back in the pre-AC days. And I can't speak for the fandom as a whole, but I definitely didn't fire the first shots.

Eh, not much has changed.

Maybe even beyond.

Guaranteed* beyond

We got very little time with Zack, so I can understand laying it on thick.

Even then I feel like what short time we had painted a nice picture of him.

Yeah, you can actually see the reason why everyone in the party, Cloud included, would feel so strongly about her death.

It makes Tifa's situation really messy because now, not only does she have to cope with Aerith dying, Cloud's also completely lost it and is talking to ghosts.

I mean we know plenty people have not yet played the game itself for lack of a PS5 or whatever. I legit believe a bunch of them are outright not watching the Tifa scenes with the absurd BS takes they have.

Forget about getting them to read Traces of Two Pasts.

People having not played Rebirth is one thing, but the original game is on phones for what it's worth, there's not really many excuses for not having played it.

 

[Yoru]

People having not played Rebirth is one thing, but the original game is on phones for what it's worth, there's not really many excuses for not having played it.

"It's an old game and it's a bit ugly"

It's exactly for this reason that this remake was awaited more than 10 years before its initial announcement. And here we are. They're still not playing it. Because these people aren't FF7 fans. They're not interested enough to buy a console just for it. "I won't buy a console for just one game" well, I did. Because that one game is FF7. Precisely.

They're only interested in Aerith. Whether it's Kingdom Hearts, a few YouTube videos, or simply her place among the great moments in video game history. They've never been interested in FF7 as a whole. They just stopped at the pink magician's front door. They're just normies lol.

 

[abzy1200]

"It's an old game and it's a bit ugly"

This might be a hot take but the original isn't even ugly, it's very charming.

Hell, I might even prefer the original's visuals to Re;trilogy's. I say this because while some moments in the re;trilogy look great, it's sooooo inconsistent, one minute I'll be looking at a beautiful character model but then a texture behind them is completely fucked.

That contrast makes the bad stick out more and takes me out of the moment, massively.

Like the ghost hotel in the Gold Saucer for example, the lighting is terrible.

I know gamedev is hard, and I don't expect the world from employees who are already under a lot of pressure, but damn it's hard to look at Rebirth at times.

 

[pxl_pushr]

This might be a hot take but the original isn't even ugly, it's very charming.

Hell, I might even prefer the original's visuals to Re;trilogy's. I say this because while some moments in the re;trilogy look great, it's sooooo inconsistent, one minute I'll be looking at a beautiful character model but then a texture behind them is completely fucked.

That contrast makes the bad stick out more and takes me out of the moment, massively.

Like the ghost hotel in the Gold Saucer for example, the lighting is terrible.

I know gamedev is hard, and I don't expect the world from employees who are already under a lot of pressure, but damn it's hard to look at Rebirth at times.

I will die on the hill that they could’ve done a remake to look like EC with super good combat models like in ReTrilogy and it would’ve been fine.

I do appreciate all the production value of ReTrilogy, but imo the waiting period between parts is killer. I’m very curious how it all feels being played straight through and if some odd story beats stick out.

 

[abzy1200]

I will die on the hill that they could’ve done a remake to look like EC with super good combat models like in ReTrilogy and it would’ve been fine.

I do appreciate all the production value of ReTrilogy, but imo the waiting period between parts is killer. I’m very curious how it all feels being played straight through and if some odd story beats stick out.

The wait between parts is the biggest gripe I have with trying to make everything grandiose. Especially when you pull cliffhangers and leave 10x more questions than answers.

It also breaks up the feeling an rpg usually gives me, instead of steady growth throughout that I can see, you're setting my characters back to zero 2 times. It doesn't feel organic.

 

[Yoru]

I can understand how frustrating it is to have to wait between episodes, but I find it a bit easy to rewrite the story after the fact.

Because after that :

What people wanted is what they're giving us. A full-scale FF7, as beautiful as possible. We'd have been disappointed if it had "just" been a graphical update.

I don't think people realize just how committed Square Enix is. Even more surprising in view of all their years of struggle since the PS3 era.

Personally, I find it a little "sickening" to see this kind of statement. They give their all, are clearly full of love for their work but also for their public. I can't imagine how I'd react if I were on the staff and came across "Yeah, just give us the basic game with EC models and scenery".

I know it wasn't your intention, but I find it disrespectful.

 

[abzy1200]

Yeah, I geuss I didn't really look at it through that perspective since I only played Remake a year and a half after it came out.

The problem is the pacing, they dragged out Midgar 25 more hours than it originally was, and then it's 7 more years of waiting until we get into the actual, meaty, story that's present in disc 2. The story begins to pick up at the Temple of the Ancients, but then ending Rebirth there kills the momentum.

I don't think the wait would be quite as frustrating if people weren't so annoying. Time flies when you're having fun, yet there's little to no fun to be experienced where the majority of this fandom resides - Twitter.

At the very least, part 3 will open with a bang, more or less.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I can understand how frustrating it is to have to wait between episodes, but I find it a bit easy to rewrite the story after the fact.

Because after that :

What people wanted is what they're giving us. A full-scale FF7, as beautiful as possible. We'd have been disappointed if it had "just" been a graphical update.

I don't think people realize just how committed Square Enix is. Even more surprising in view of all their years of struggle since the PS3 era.

Personally, I find it a little "sickening" to see this kind of statement. They give their all, are clearly full of love for their work but also for their public. I can't imagine how I'd react if I were on the staff and came across "Yeah, just give us the basic game with EC models and scenery".

I know it wasn't your intention, but I find it disrespectful.

Yeah, that wasn’t my intention. I don’t question the commitment and love put into the project, it radiates off of how much detail they put into NPC dialogue and even the sidequests people complained about in Remake still gave character moments and worldbuilding that I enjoyed.

Before the Remake was official, if you went down the line of what people wanted from an FF7 remake, you’d get different answers. Top of the line graphics, large open world, expanded Midgar, etc was one answer but my personal answer was always something closer to the presentation of EC because it does have a similar charm.

Like I said, I do appreciate what they’re giving us. Voice acting is on point, facial and character animations are enjoyable, combat is fun, and I have a new appreciation for the various locations.

I asked for a birthday cake, and they wheeled out a 7-layer cake with sparklers and edible dioramas and scoops of ice cream on the side.

 

[Yoru]

Yeah, that wasn’t my intention. I don’t question the commitment and love put into the project, it radiates off of how much detail they put into NPC dialogue and even the sidequests people complained about in Remake still gave character moments and worldbuilding that I enjoyed.

Before the Remake was official, if you went down the line of what people wanted from an FF7 remake, you’d get different answers. Top of the line graphics, large open world, expanded Midgar, etc was one answer but my personal answer was always something closer to the presentation of EC because it does have a similar charm.

Like I said, I do appreciate what they’re giving us. Voice acting is on point, facial and character animations are enjoyable, combat is fun, and I have a new appreciation for the various locations.

I asked for a birthday cake, and they wheeled out a 7-layer cake with sparklers and edible dioramas and scoops of ice cream on the side.

I understand. Personally, if you're going to do something with FF7, I'd rather have what we're seeing now than a simple birthday cake.

Because if it was just going to be FF7 "but prettier", I might as well just play FF7 OG. The game's still there.

By the way! For those missing FF7 in the coming months/years, modders are currently porting EC's 3D models into the original game.

 

[ForceStealer]

Say it with me now, there was space between "uprezzed original" and "multiverse plot dementors to contrive cliffhangers for two parts."

 

[Sacky]

I can understand how frustrating it is to have to wait between episodes, but I find it a bit easy to rewrite the story after the fact.

Because after that :

What people wanted is what they're giving us. A full-scale FF7, as beautiful as possible. We'd have been disappointed if it had "just" been a graphical update.

I don't think people realize just how committed Square Enix is. Even more surprising in view of all their years of struggle since the PS3 era.

Personally, I find it a little "sickening" to see this kind of statement. They give their all, are clearly full of love for their work but also for their public. I can't imagine how I'd react if I were on the staff and came across "Yeah, just give us the basic game with EC models and scenery".

I know it wasn't your intention, but I find it disrespectful.

I agree with this; a graphical update would have pleased older fans. But something older fans keep forgetting is New fans in which they don't do deep dive into the lore or not all of them. So yes Aeriths death would have had the same impact if it was the same because to all those people who kept saying they had to make it shocking, they really didn't. People don't care about a shocking death after its done because they wouldn't still be scrambling to explain how they can live or are alive in another world if it was about shock. But also New fans see the cinematic scale the music and the characters and its stories and become fans. Yet so much of this fandom wants to gatekeep new fans from being able to enjoy the series without reading translated books and interviews from 2005 and so on. Or tell them what you think about the story is wrong in the comments or who do you prefer Theres a love triangle you know you have to choose when there isn't a love triangle anymore. All this and they wonder why the fandom is not as popular anymore. They need to end this LTD so people can just speak passionatley about the series without being harassed or shoved a badly translated interview in which they are vague about wording in their faces everytime you say something.

 

[Yoru]

Say it with me now, there was space between "uprezzed original" and "multiverse plot dementors to contrive cliffhangers for two parts."

I find it reductive to always point the finger at the "so-called" convoluted plot that nobody understands, but whatever.

In the meantime, we haven't missed any of the original moments. It's all there.

 

[Yoru]

Not saying the game is perfect either.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I agree with this; a graphical update would have pleased older fans. But something older fans keep forgetting is New fans in which they don't do deep dive into the lore or not all of them. So yes Aeriths death would have had the same impact if it was the same because to all those people who kept saying they had to make it shocking, they really didn't. People don't care about a shocking death after its done because they wouldn't still be scrambling to explain how they can live or are alive in another world if it was about shock. But also New fans see the cinematic scale the music and the characters and its stories and become fans. Yet so much of this fandom wants to gatekeep new fans from being able to enjoy the series without reading translated books and interviews from 2005 and so on. Or tell them what you think about the story is wrong in the comments or who do you prefer Theres a love triangle you know you have to choose when there isn't a love triangle anymore. All this and they wonder why the fandom is not as popular anymore. They need to end this LTD so people can just speak passionatley about the series without being harassed or shoved a badly translated interview in which they are vague about wording in their faces everytime you say something.

In my mind, I separate the story additions/expansions/changes from graphical/technical changes.

For the expansions and alterations, I love way more than I don’t care for so far. Hard to make a fully committed statement until I have all the story to look over. Stuff like going to Jessie’s house to steal her dad’s ID Card is great, and I’m glad we got it because it’s rich in character moments. Rearranging Junon and changing the ship to more of a pleasure cruise? Yup.

I’m just not the type of guy who prioritizes graphics that much anymore. I’ve come to realize that some of my favorite games stick with me not so much for graphics and flash and glamour, but for story and art direction. FF7 has both baked in, so the graphics could’ve just been a less graphical extravaganza and still stood as a crowning gem of FF’s catalog.

I know that I’m just being impatient and the exhausting discourse is temporary. New fans don’t know the major story beats to come, and are making judgements and theories from that perspective. Makes discussion hard for people who know the whole story, but even we don’t know how all this spiritual lifestream works stuff will end. It’s a bizarre position we’re all in.

Kinda talking in circles at this point, but I guess the summary is that for me, I can appreciate all that’s on display but still say that all I ever needed was the story expansions/additions/rearrangements and a presentation that was a little easier on the eyes.

 

[abzy1200]

Say it with me now, there was space between "uprezzed original" and "multiverse plot dementors to contrive cliffhangers for two parts."

This is exactly how I feel. Like, I really don't feel like the whispers are adding anything so much as they're just creating conversation for the sake of keeping people talking until the next part comes out.

The Final Fantasy IX remake might give us an idea as to what the re;trilogy could have been. As I don't think that's a huge multi-part project like the re;trilogy is.

I find it reductive to always point the finger at the "so-called" convoluted plot that nobody understands, but whatever.

The problem is, the devs have literally admitted that they contrived all this bs to keep people, old and new, engaged. They essentially made changes "because"

In the meantime, we haven't missed any of the original moments. It's all there.

We haven't missed any, but we've certainly fucked up maybe the most important one so far.

And depending on how they go about the Lifestream Sequence in part 3, this could be even worse. For now, I have faith it'll end up fine and I'm worried over nothing. But the devs seem to have this obsession with bigger=better instead of just letting moments happen.

It's not enough to just have the President die like in the original, add a Jenova boss fight and "kill" Barret, 'cause fuck it! Then add a part where the party hops dimensions and fights otherworldly beings that are actually the remnants from Advent Children! It's not enough to just let Aerith die, let's make it a setpiece even though that goes against everything her death was supposed to be, because we gotta keep people talking!

None of this is going to make sense to new players, and making them wait another 3 years for it to maybe make sense is pushing your luck for how much people actually care imo. Sales are going to be lower for part 3 than Remake and Rebirth, pushing away as many people by making it convoluted on purpose by having people remember details from a game they released 7 years ago by the time part 3 comes out isn't the play here. I don't necessarily have a problem with them doing a grand multi-project with extravagant graphics, it's when you pair it with this bullshit they added it gets much less tolerable because now the wait is an excruciating mix of anxiousness and excitement. If the game was still one experience the new story developments might not have been as bad, because it wouldn't be as sprawling.

The Lifestream Sequence will be the stand out moment for part 3, just like Aerith's death was for Rebirth. And it's 100% also going to get this "if we make it bigger, naturally it'll just be better!" treatment. My guess is Aerith and Zack fighting off Sephiroth while Tifa does her thing with Cloud, which I can tolerate, hell I might even think it's cool! But for now, I'll stay conservative with my expectations on how they're going to execute it.

Not saying the game is perfect either.

For what it's worth, I think they get the post-Aerith death sadness right, unlike in the original where the moment happens but because there isn't voice acting we can't quite see the party's grief past that one cutscene.

Cloud and Tifa having their development pushed back a little to make it more organic is also very nice.

And as @pxl_pushr said, the expansion to Jessie and the other members of AVALANCHE are appreciated.

But it's the big moments they get wrong. I also think they dropped the ball on Aerith as a whole.

I think the re;trilogy is going to suffer from these cliffhangers once all three parts are out and you can play them in rapid succession. Because then the cliffhangers won't even land properly.

And just fyi, I am still looking forward to part 3. I don't hate everything about it, I still enjoyed the majority of my time with Remake and Rebirth.