SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yoru]

The problem is, the devs have literally admitted that they contrived all this bs to keep people, old and new, engaged. They essentially made changes "because"

Again. Calling it bullshit isn't fair.

There's a difference between keeping people's attention with well-thought-out elements and just throwing anything out there for show.

That's the only thing I've "criticized" you for, because as for the rest, I completely agree with you.

But just because something's different and it's not clicking with you at the moment, I find it a bit dishonest to immediately shout "nonsense!"

 

[pxl_pushr]

This is exactly how I feel. Like, I really don't feel like the whispers are adding anything so much as they're just creating conversation for the sake of keeping people talking until the next part comes out.

The Final Fantasy IX remake might give us an idea as to what the re;trilogy could have been. As I don't think that's a huge multi-part project like the re;trilogy is.

The problem is, the devs have literally admitted that they contrived all this bs to keep people, old and new, engaged. They essentially made changes "because"


We haven't missed any, but we've certainly fucked up maybe the most important one so far.

And depending on how they go about the Lifestream Sequence in part 3, this could be even worse. For now, I have faith it'll end up fine and I'm worried over nothing. But the devs seem to have this obsession with bigger=better instead of just letting moments happen.

It's not enough to just have the President die like in the original, add a Jenova boss fight and "kill" Barret, 'cause fuck it! Then add a part where the party hops dimensions and fights otherworldly beings that are actually the remnants from Advent Children! It's not enough to just let Aerith die, let's make it a setpiece even though that goes against everything her death was supposed to be, because we gotta keep people talking!

None of this is going to make sense to new players, and making them wait another 3 years for it to maybe make sense is pushing your luck for how much people actually care imo. Sales are going to be lower for part 3 than Remake and Rebirth, pushing away as many people by making it convoluted on purpose by having people remember details from a game they released 7 years ago by the time part 3 comes out isn't the play here. I don't necessarily have a problem with them doing a grand multi-project with extravagant graphics, it's when you pair it with this bullshit they added it gets much less tolerable because now the wait is an excruciating mix of anxiousness and excitement. If the game was still one experience the new story developments might not have been as bad, because it wouldn't be as sprawling.

The Lifestream Sequence will be the stand out moment for part 3, just like Aerith's death was for Rebirth. And it's 100% also going to get this "if we make it bigger, naturally it'll just be better!" treatment. My guess is Aerith and Zack fighting off Sephiroth while Tifa does her thing with Cloud, which I can tolerate, hell I might even think it's cool! But for now, I'll stay conservative with my expectations on how they're going to execute it.


For what it's worth, I think they get the post-Aerith death sadness right, unlike in the original where the moment happens but because there isn't voice acting we can't quite see the party's grief past that one cutscene.

Cloud and Tifa having their development pushed back a little to make it more organic is also very nice.

And as @pxl_pushr said, the expansion to Jessie and the other members of AVALANCHE are appreciated.

But it's the big moments they get wrong. I also think they dropped the ball on Aerith as a whole.

I think the re;trilogy is going to suffer from these cliffhangers once all three parts are out and you can play them in rapid succession. Because then the cliffhangers won't even land properly.

And just fyi, I am still looking forward to part 3. I don't hate everything about it.

I’m personally trying not to make a decision about Aerith’s death until I see how it’s being used in the grand scheme.

In the moment, we’re denied the feeling of the original scene in its shocking simplicity, but much like other changes earlier in the story, there could be a reason besides shock and circumstance.

For example, is all this in service of explaining the weird tone shift on the way up to NC? Are they keeping it, but now using that tone to make us feel uncomfortable much like the party feels with Cloud’s mental state? IF the answer is yes to all that, then my criticism dulls considerably.

In between releases, in this odd position of discomfort, it’s easy for me to be harsh on changes when I’m working with an incomplete picture of things. We really are living as if we stopped playing OG after disc 1, with disc 2 being mailed to us in ( maybe ) 3 years.

Unknowns requires us to put our faith in them to stick the landing, and SE has had mixed results for too long for me not to be a little concerned.

 

[Yoru]

What seem like poor cliffhangers to us today may just be mere exposition once we have all the elements revealed, and not ruin the pleasure of replaying the games one after the other once everything is out.

 

[Yoru]

Unknowns requires us to put our faith in them to stick the landing, and SE has had mixed results for too long for me not to be a little concerned.

The fact that it's their biggest license, a last-chance project that you can't miss or you'll lose interest in your historic brand; not to mention that it's a project that's been maturing for literally over 10-15 years, still gives me more hope than any other project from their studios.

 

[abzy1200]

But just because something's different and it's not clicking with you at the moment, I find it a bit dishonest to immediately shout "nonsense!"

I’m personally trying not to make a decision about Aerith’s death until I see how it’s being used in the grand scheme.

In the moment, we’re denied the feeling of the original scene in its shocking simplicity, but much like other changes earlier in the story, there could be a reason besides shock and circumstance.

What seem like poor cliffhangers to us today may just be mere exposition once we have all the elements revealed, and not ruin the pleasure of replaying the games one after the other once everything is out.

Eh, no matter what part 3 does, they've still essentially robbed new players of experiencing Aerith's death.

It's not Cloud's deteriorating psyche I have a problem with, it's the million different boss fights that came after her death. Like, STOP! This goes back to the bigger=better I was talking about.

And again, it's not just Aerith's death they messed up, it's Aerith as a whole, I feel she isn't being done justice. She was largely absent from Rebirth, her role only really picking up at the very end. And she isn't going to have much more time in part 3.

 

[Xannis]

I’m very curious how it all feels being played straight through and if some odd story beats stick out.

So I did this. Started Remake Chap 1 -> End Straight to Rebirth Chap 1 -> End.

It's....well it's ok but it's disjointing based on the way I play. Just some examples and these were Chap Select Hardmode.

• Remake combat felt SLOW AS HELL. Funny but I used consider HP + almost a requirement for Remake Hard Mode. Replaying it felt like I'd been swinging with bat weights and I was able to completely drop the HP + orb.
• Had a lot of muscle memory issues. I can bet LOTS of players don't fully explore the Synergy Defense Skills like Counterfire and Iron Defense in Rebirth but I did. Found myself instinctively using the shortcuts for them in Remake which of course do nothing.
• My L1 + shortcuts for Cloud are completely different.
• The different camera angle is hard to get used to between the two.

Anyway, it was ok but honestly not great. I'm a fan of a lot of the combat changes they made to Rebirth and just kept wishing those mechanics were in Remake. Makes Remake hard to replay which sucks because I really like Remake and I really like doing replays.

 

[pxl_pushr]

What seem like poor cliffhangers to us today may just be mere exposition once we have all the elements revealed, and not ruin the pleasure of replaying the games one after the other once everything is out.

Which kind of mimics how the original game tells its story. Crucial puzzle pieces are missing until the second half. The crucial information for understanding this timeline(?) stuff is also missing.

If they gave it to you early, you’d predict the plot with 90% accuracy, I suspect

 

[Yoru]

Eh, no matter what part 3 does, they've still essentially robbed new players of experiencing Aerith's death.

It's not Cloud's deteriorating psyche I have a problem with, it's the million different boss fights that came after her death. Like, STOP! This goes back to the bigger=better I was talking about.

And again, it's not just Aerith's death they messed up, it's Aerith as a whole, I feel she isn't being done justice. She was largely absent from Rebirth, her role only really picking up at the very end. And she isn't going to have much more time in part 3.

I see where you're coming from...

... But does OG really gives justice to Aerith ? Because personally, after the events in Midgar, she disappears, only to come back into the picture a little at the end of the temple. And then she dies. And we're not talking about it ever again (sort of)

I have the impression that they're trying to correct their mistake this time, and that giving her a new agenda will do her justice while making people cry at the right moment.

 

[abzy1200]

... But does OG really gives justice to Aerith ? Because personally, after the events in Midgar, she disappears, only to come back into the picture a little at the end of the temple. And then she dies. And we're not talking about it ever again (sort of)

I mean compared to everyone else, especially Tifa, for example.

They gave Tifa tons of new (great) stuff, but then left Aerith to do very little in comparison which makes her feel even more absent.

I have the impression that they're trying to correct their mistake this time, and that giving her a new agenda will do her justice while making people cry at the right moment.

Getting Zack into the picture sure helps with displaying her internal conflict, but it obviously wasn't layed on thick enough.

I feel like the angle of "Well, they messed up her death, but it'll be sad the next time around when we see it again in the FC in 3 years time" is a bit of an odd way to look at things. Just get it right the first time when it's really going to stick with you.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I see where you're coming from...

... But does OG really gives justice to Aerith ? Because personally, after the events in Midgar, she disappears, only to come back into the picture a little at the end of the temple. And then she dies. And we're not talking about it ever again (sort of)

I have the impression that they're trying to correct their mistake this time, and that giving her a new agenda will do her justice while making people cry at the right moment.

Because the thing people don’t like to hear is that FF7’s story isn’t perfect and isn’t really all that complex.

What I noticed on ReTrilogy is that no one character gets the spotlight squarely on them with the others fading back.

Barret’s section in Corel? He’s the focus, but everyone gets at least a little bit of characterization. Aerith too, though it’s very very minor but no less crucial to remember: she’s the odd one out of this group.

They could’ve have come up with anything to separate the group on the climb up Mt.Corel. Why go with reminding us that Aerith isn’t really built for tough traversal? Why remind us she’s physically weaker by a large margin?

@Yoru has mentioned it before, and I think it may be true: Rebirth has been subtly telling us WHY Aerith has to be in the LS for all this to work: she’s otherwise half as useful because she’s untrained in Cetra culture/knowledge, physically incapable of keeping up with a group of hardened fighters ( and a magical puppet ), and somewhat disconnected from the planet due to her lack of interest in pursuing her lineage up until now.

Aerith is in the background most of the time, but there’s little things they do with her that may well pay dividends once the final piece of the story falls into place.

 

[Yoru]

I feel like the angle of "Well, they messed up her death, but it'll be sad the next time around when we see it again in the FC in 3 years time" is a bit of an odd way to look at things. Just get it right the first time when it's really going to stick with you.

But you know the story. So it wouldn't have mattered to you anyway.

But let's imagine that they keep her around to really do planet-related stuff while the rest of the team focuses on following the events of OG, and that her final OG appearance is transcribed here as her departure into the LS once the job is done (a la Tidus in FFX). I don't think the newcomers will have been robbed of their sadness. And personally, I don't think I will either.

I really think we're heading for a bitter-sweet ending and that ZA will be the bitter part of it.

 

[abzy1200]

But you know the story. So it wouldn't have mattered to you anyway.

I can't think of it like that though since I'm not the only person who's going to be playing the game.

People are going to play through possibly the most iconic moment in a video game ever and it's not going to click. That's the travesty here.

There's a bit more to a story than just things making sense, the timing and execution of things that leave impact on the reader/player are just as important as a sound plot. I could make a story that might make perfect sense, but that doesn't mean it's exempt from being boring or plain.

Aerith's death could have been great, but for the sake of expanding the plot they cheapened it. And then bringing Aerith back to do a substantial amount of stuff after and pushing her character moments there feels counter-intuitive if they want you to care about her death.

Just generally I have very mixed feelings on Aerith and her death. I know it kinda had to be this way if they wanted to expand the plot in the way the are doing, but it doesn't feel like it's entirely panning out on an emotional level.

I really think we're heading for a bitter-sweet ending and that ZA will be the bitter part of it.

Oh we definitely are, it's just the execution that's got me antsy.

 

[Yoru]

I can't think of it like that though since I'm not the only person who's going to be playing the game.

People are going to play through possibly the most iconic moment in a video game ever and it's not going to click. That's the travesty here.

There's a bit more to a story than just things making sense, the timing and execution of things that leave impact on the reader/player are just as important as a sound plot. I could make a story that might make perfect sense, but that doesn't mean it's exempt from being boring or plain.

Aerith's death could have been great, but for the sake of expanding the plot they cheapened it. And then bringing Aerith back to do a substantial amount of stuff after and pushing her character moments there feels counter-intuitive if they want you to care about her death.

Just generally I have very mixed feelings on Aerith and her death. I know it kinda had to be this way if they wanted to expand the plot in the way the are doing, but it doesn't feel like it's entirely panning out on an emotional level.

Oh we definitely are, it's just the execution that's got me antsy.

What I mean is: This is an iconic moment for YOU. Because YOU know the game.

And honestly. It's impossible to make a impact to anyone with this scene. This thing has become part of the general culture. Apart from drawing tears, because yeah, you're watching someone dying, there's nothing more you can do with it.

What if they choose to make an iconic moment afterwards? Who are we to say: "Yeah no. They should have done it when she dies". Sure, you may not like it. There's nothing wrong with that.

But we can't speak for the new players. Because we won't even know what it's like to be one. So if the devs are cooking something that marks them + make us old fans feel something. Personally, I'm all for it.

You can be anxious. I'm worried too. I'm so afraid of Ghost Aerith. But I won't argue against their vision until Part 3 is here. Because nobody knows what the fuck is going on for now.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I can't think of it like that though since I'm not the only person who's going to be playing the game.

People are going to play through possibly the most iconic moment in a video game ever and it's not going to click. That's the travesty here.

There's a bit more to a story than just things making sense, the timing and execution of things that leave impact on the reader/player are just as important as a sound plot. I could make a story that might make perfect sense, but that doesn't mean it's exempt from being boring or plain.

Aerith's death could have been great, but for the sake of expanding the plot they cheapened it. And then bringing Aerith back to do a substantial amount of stuff after and pushing her character moments there feels counter-intuitive if they want you to care about her death.

Just generally I have very mixed feelings on Aerith and her death. I know it kinda had to be this way if they wanted to expand the plot in the way the are doing, but it doesn't feel like it's entirely panning out on an emotional level.

Oh we definitely are, it's just the execution that's got me antsy.

Gonna be upfront that my perspective may be painting my read on Aerith’s death so keep that in mind when I say this:
Aerith’s death isn’t any more or less sad than other party member deaths throughout FF as a franchise.

I say this because I’m one of those who didn’t really feel much when I first saw her die when I was a kid. I have very little emotional attachment to her death scene ( again, this may be painting my perspective on this so please don’t take this as me downplaying her character )

I think fan perspective on Aerith’s death may not align with the dev’s perspective on it. Aerith herself says it: “it’s not about me, it’s about saving the world and you.”

I think the gambit here is that they want you to focus less on her death and more on what it DOES. Her death puts a huge black mark on an otherwise lighthearted journey of self-discovery and that fun tone comes crashing down on time with Sephiroth’s descent to kill her.

Not the WHAT happens, but the WHY.

Sephiroth’s “never have I felt it as keenly as in this moment” isn’t aimed squarely at Cloud or even the other party members, he’s talking to US as well… and Aerith subverts it if even a little bit.

I think they knew people would hyperfocus on her death like before, and they’re making a gamble that by moving the memorable moment until later, the story may not get derailed in people’s minds by it and instead focus back on the others, Cloud and Tifa chief of all.

All that to explain why I’m sitting on the fence, waiting to see how it all plays out in the overall story. Is it worth lessening the sadness for whatever else they’ve got planned? I dunno, but I’m open to the idea is all I’m saying.

 

[Sacky]

Gonna be upfront that my perspective may be painting my read on Aerith’s death so keep that in mind when I say this:
Aerith’s death isn’t any more or less sad than other party member deaths throughout FF as a franchise.

I say this because I’m one of those who didn’t really feel much when I first saw her die when I was a kid. I have very little emotional attachment to her death scene ( again, this may be painting my perspective on this so please don’t take this as me downplaying her character )

I think fan perspective on Aerith’s death may not align with the dev’s perspective on it. Aerith herself says it: “it’s not about me, it’s about saving the world and you.”

I think the gambit here is that they want you to focus less on her death and more on what it DOES. Her death puts a huge black mark on an otherwise lighthearted journey of self-discovery and that fun tone comes crashing down on time with Sephiroth’s descent to kill her.

Not the WHAT happens, but the WHY.

Sephiroth’s “never have I felt it as keenly as in this moment” isn’t aimed squarely at Cloud or even the other party members, he’s talking to US as well… and Aerith subverts it if even a little bit.

I think they knew people would hyperfocus on her death like before, and they’re making a gamble that by moving the memorable moment until later, the story may not get derailed in people’s minds by it and instead focus back on the others, Cloud and Tifa chief of all.

All that to explain why I’m sitting on the fence, waiting to see how it all plays out in the overall story. Is it worth lessening the sadness for whatever else they’ve got planned? I dunno, but I’m open to the idea is all I’m saying.

See this is why I think if they just ended the actual game at NC it would have been better

 

[pxl_pushr]

See this is why I think if they just ended the actual game at NC it would have been better

We would’ve definitely had a better idea for why they did what they did and maybe what they’ll do lol

I dunno, I can easily see them knowing Aerith’s death sucks up almost all the oxygen in the room in the greater scheme of things. I may be completely making this up, but didn’t an interview somewhere reveal that the original devs were kinda surprised by how much Aerith’s death scene blew up in FF7’s legacy?

Because it’s easy to see that people think it’s THE scene of the game ( not referring to @abzy1200 btw, more so the broad gaming audience ) when people like Nojima would likely be confused by that idea.

Offer up the idea of changing fate: automatically go to Aerith living this time

Lyrics to Hollow: must be about Cloud feeling hollow over Aerith dying

Jam pack Rebirth with all this good character moments, minigames, and combat mechanics: Will Aerith die or not

Zack is somehow “alive”: Will he save Aerith instead of Cloud!?

I did all these too btw, so I’m not talking as someone above all this. Could all be a misread too, so keep that in mind… but it’s totally something I’d be well aware of it was me doing this story.

 

[abzy1200]

As of now, I'll stand by my opinion that the ending didn't stick the landing, but I'll try to stay open to developments that come in part 3.

See this is why I think if they just ended the actual game at NC it would have been better

We'd be waiting another while for the game if this was the case, but I'd have definitely preferred it.

Because it’s easy to see that people think it’s THE scene of the game ( not referring to @abzy1200 btw, more so the broad gaming audience ) when people like Nojima would likely be confused by that idea.

I know you aren't referring to me, but I'll still elaborate a little bit more for the sake of clearing up any confusion.

I don't think Aerith's death is THE scene of ff7, but it definitely was in Rebirth. Or it was at least set up that way.

If I had to pick what I'd say is THE scene of Final Fantasy 7, I'd say either the Nibelheim Incident or more likely the Lifestream Sequence since that also includes the truth about the Nibelheim Incident. Cloud wouldn't be the character he is today without the Lifestream Sequence, it's way too important a scene for Cloud not to be THE scene.

 

[Eerie]

I say it would be confusing because people have spend nearly 30 years thinking Aerith was in love with Cloud, and truth be told she was until it was retconned in the re;trilogy.

Sorry this message is old but I barely have the time to read that forum these days, let alone answer stuff, so I put posts in my quotes and answer when I have time.

So you see, I don't think we can say her feelings have been retconned. Even if you ask me today, I will tell you that Aerith loved Cloud. She loved a version of himself that wasn't truly himself and represented Zack, sure, but she did fall in love with that version of Cloud nonetheless, she interprets her feelings as romantic.

The Aerith we see in the church is possibly I'm thinking a post-CoLW Aerith - that Aerith who wondered how to communicate with Cloud. It's very interesting because it would solve exactly that. In CoLW she does say she had been in love with Cloud (when she was alive). Cloud will forever remains precious to her because of what he represents, that period of her life when she was absolutely free, made friends, saw the world.

But you can't say that people stuck with this because in the end, it is said that "at all times her first love Zack is by her side" so it's a contradiction they have to solve; after meeting Cloud, what are her feelings for Zack? People saw them in ACC bidding their good bye to Cloud, and go back to the Lifestream together, they saw the Buster sword which is Zack's sword we see at the beginning of the movie where he died being all brand new in the bed of flowers. The reunion of lovers so to speak. So people assume that Aerith does love Zack, in the end. ACC was in 2009, that's 15 years already of pointing towards ZA. Yes, Aerith loved Cloud romantically at a point, but those feelings most probably weren't as deep as those she holds for Zack (which is normal; one test of love is time, ZA passes it but not CA). I think most fans got that, at least.

I think fan perspective on Aerith’s death may not align with the dev’s perspective on it. Aerith herself says it: “it’s not about me, it’s about saving the world and you.”

Corrected. She doesn't say "and you" there.

But anyway that reminds me of how LS!Aerith dies there only for her to die in the real world and replace her; a version of herself that is more powerful (Sephiroth underestimated her) and that is one, beating time and space.

I think they knew people would hyperfocus on her death like before, and they’re making a gamble that by moving the memorable moment until later, the story may not get derailed in people’s minds by it and instead focus back on the others, Cloud and Tifa chief of all.

I surely hope personally that her death will not get hyperfocused again in p3; it was already a freaking full chapter of good byes; death, fight, what more do we need lol. I am very sorry but as I see it, if her death does get refocused again I will throw something at my console, that's for sure.

The OG problem was that fans absolutely did think the major scene of FFVII was her death - the problem is that it was not and that has lead the LTD to live on because Cloud's feelings were in the past, the LS scene is not that important (it's the most important and impactful of the game), so if they hyper focus once more, people will once more overshadow the LS scene with her death, which honestly I do not want. P3 will already be packed with story time between the OG story, the added story with Wutai, the huge materia quest... honestly adding once again her death would only be "what again???" and a feeling they're making it more important than the freaking climax of the game. Aerith's death should be treated like Zack's death and we should see it's a Cloud problem, not a "we need to see it in the LS and him realising he got it wrong" like no. He just needs to admit he hallucinated it. Like I have no doubt it will come back, but I don't think making it come back in a grand death scene would do the Re- Trilogy any favour.

I don't think Aerith's death is THE scene of ff7, but it definitely was in Rebirth. Or it was at least set up that way.

Exactly, we spent a whole chapter on it! Chapter 14 was all about it! What more do people want?

If I had to pick what I'd say is THE scene of Final Fantasy 7, I'd say either the Nibelheim Incident or more likely the Lifestream Sequence since that also includes the truth about the Nibelheim Incident. Cloud wouldn't be the character he is today without the Lifestream Sequence, it's way too important a scene for Cloud not to be THE scene.

The climax is the LS scene, this is where everything is explained and everything makes sense - it's Kitase and Nomura's favourite scene too.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Sorry this message is old but I barely have the time to read that forum these days, let alone answer stuff, so I put posts in my quotes and answer when I have time.

So you see, I don't think we can say her feelings have been retconned. Even if you ask me today, I will tell you that Aerith loved Cloud. She loved a version of himself that wasn't truly himself and represented Zack, sure, but she did fall in love with that version of Cloud nonetheless, she interprets her feelings as romantic.

The Aerith we see in the church is possibly I'm thinking a post-CoLW Aerith - that Aerith who wondered how to communicate with Cloud. It's very interesting because it would solve exactly that. In CoLW she does say she had been in love with Cloud (when she was alive). Cloud will forever remains precious to her because of what he represents, that period of her life when she was absolutely free, made friends, saw the world.

But you can't say that people stuck with this because in the end, it is said that "at all times her first love Zack is by her side" so it's a contradiction they have to solve; after meeting Cloud, what are her feelings for Zack? People saw them in ACC bidding their good bye to Cloud, and go back to the Lifestream together, they saw the Buster sword which is Zack's sword we see at the beginning of the movie where he died being all brand new in the bed of flowers. The reunion of lovers so to speak. So people assume that Aerith does love Zack, in the end. ACC was in 2009, that's 15 years already of pointing towards ZA. Yes, Aerith loved Cloud romantically at a point, but those feelings most probably weren't as deep as those she holds for Zack (which is normal; one test of love is time, ZA passes it but not CA). I think most fans got that, at least.


Corrected. She doesn't say "and you" there.

But anyway that reminds me of how LS!Aerith dies there only for her to die in the real world and replace her; a version of herself that is more powerful (Sephiroth underestimated her) and that is one, beating time and space.

I surely hope personally that her death will not get hyperfocused again in p3; it was already a freaking full chapter of good byes; death, fight, what more do we need lol. I am very sorry but as I see it, if her death does get refocused again I will throw something at my console, that's for sure.

The OG problem was that fans absolutely did think the major scene of FFVII was her death - the problem is that it was not and that has lead the LTD to live on because Cloud's feelings were in the past, the LS scene is not that important (it's the most important and impactful of the game), so if they hyper focus once more, people will once more overshadow the LS scene with her death, which honestly I do not want. P3 will already be packed with story time between the OG story, the added story with Wutai, the huge materia quest... honestly adding once again her death would only be "what again???" and a feeling they're making it more important than the freaking climax of the game. Aerith's death should be treated like Zack's death and we should see it's a Cloud problem, not a "we need to see it in the LS and him realising he got it wrong" like no. He just needs to admit he hallucinated it. Like I have no doubt it will come back, but I don't think making it come back in a grand death scene would do the Re- Trilogy any favour.

Exactly, we spent a whole chapter on it! Chapter 14 was all about it! What more do people want?

The climax is the LS scene, this is where everything is explained and everything makes sense - it's Kitase and Nomura's favourite scene too.

Thanks for the correction, best to be accurate so as always, check me when needed.

But yeah, I that’s my overall point. They kneecapped her death scene NOW so that it’s less about her death and more about what is happening around it and even when we see it play out simple and clean in part 3, it still won’t be about the fact that she died, it’ll be about what her death sets in motion.

Just like every other character death in Final Fantasy, what purpose does it serve? That’s the question to be answered, and I think a longstanding fan belief is being set up to be proven false.

 

[Stiggie]

I’m personally trying not to make a decision about Aerith’s death until I see how it’s being used in the grand scheme.

In the moment, we’re denied the feeling of the original scene in its shocking simplicity, but much like other changes earlier in the story, there could be a reason besides shock and circumstance.

For example, is all this in service of explaining the weird tone shift on the way up to NC? Are they keeping it, but now using that tone to make us feel uncomfortable much like the party feels with Cloud’s mental state? IF the answer is yes to all that, then my criticism dulls considerably.

In between releases, in this odd position of discomfort, it’s easy for me to be harsh on changes when I’m working with an incomplete picture of things. We really are living as if we stopped playing OG after disc 1, with disc 2 being mailed to us in ( maybe ) 3 years.

Unknowns requires us to put our faith in them to stick the landing, and SE has had mixed results for too long for me not to be a little concerned.

I am sure that there is a reason, but I just fundamentally don't believe there is any reason that is good enough to justify making a spectacle of Aeriths death and robing it from the sobering realism it has in the original.

I was watching a video on the decision that saved Lord of the rings. In this case the decision they were talking about was to not have Aragorn fight Sauron at the final battle. They realized that the real villain of the story was the ring and that this would take away from the actual point of the story.
They correctly exercised restraint.
The restraint not to make a spectacle and go unnecessarily grand and over the top and have a sword fight with the big bad. They realized that quality comes from QUALITY, not quantity. They respected their audience enough to believe that they'd be able to be intellectually satisfied by a story without having the necessity of having the hero fight the big bad. They lost that restraint in the hobbit where there were hundreds of orcs getting decapitated a second and a 1 hour fight with Smaug. And as a result the movie lost impact.


SE is a thousand times worse. They have zero restraint, zero respect for their audience. They fundamentally don't believe the player has the artistic appreciation required to sit through an entire game without Sephiroth, and thus they slathered him all over the first game, destroying all the mystery and build up he had in the original.
They fundamentally don't believe the player has the ability to delay gratification needed to build up to a final showdown, and thus every single part of the remake so far has ended both with kicking Sephiroths ass, and fighting a freaking god. Because SE thinks you're an idiot.

SE thinks a well told straight forward story about life, the planet, and psychology is too boring for you, you need multiple timelines and explosions to be entertained. They can't shock you like they did back in 1997 after all, clearly any approach to Aeriths death that requires the player to just empathize in the moment could never be satisfying to a spoiled ADHD junky like YOU, the player. I mean, we all know that the moment any character dies in a movie (or a book it's based on) that makes all future viewings of the movie (or the initial viewing if its faithful to the book) totally devoid of emotional engagement. /s

And as a result Aeriths death, a death touted for it's realistic and sober approach to death, one that is final, not like hollywood, and leaves only a sense of emptiness in its wake, is now the most overly dramatic bombastic clusterfuck of hollywood nonsense I have EVER seen. There is zero focus or room for the moment to breathe, there is zero clarity about what is happening or what you're supposed to feel and as a result you feel nothing. Instead we have 2 hours of dumb boss fights against an enemy who lost his threatening presence somewhere around the time that I kicked his ass on the highway, and we even get to fight alongside Aerith again about 5 minutes after her death since, you know, it's not like death means anything.


I am sure they had "a reason" for this, but I really don't care what that reason is, it's not good enough.

 

[abzy1200]

Sorry this message is old but I barely have the time to read that forum these days, let alone answer stuff, so I put posts in my quotes and answer when I have time.

So you see, I don't think we can say her feelings have been retconned. Even if you ask me today, I will tell you that Aerith loved Cloud. She loved a version of himself that wasn't truly himself and represented Zack, sure, but she did fall in love with that version of Cloud nonetheless, she interprets her feelings as romantic.

The Aerith we see in the church is possibly I'm thinking a post-CoLW Aerith - that Aerith who wondered how to communicate with Cloud. It's very interesting because it would solve exactly that. In CoLW she does say she had been in love with Cloud (when she was alive). Cloud will forever remains precious to her because of what he represents, that period of her life when she was absolutely free, made friends, saw the world.

But you can't say that people stuck with this because in the end, it is said that "at all times her first love Zack is by her side" so it's a contradiction they have to solve; after meeting Cloud, what are her feelings for Zack? People saw them in ACC bidding their good bye to Cloud, and go back to the Lifestream together, they saw the Buster sword which is Zack's sword we see at the beginning of the movie where he died being all brand new in the bed of flowers. The reunion of lovers so to speak. So people assume that Aerith does love Zack, in the end. ACC was in 2009, that's 15 years already of pointing towards ZA. Yes, Aerith loved Cloud romantically at a point, but those feelings most probably weren't as deep as those she holds for Zack (which is normal; one test of love is time, ZA passes it but not CA). I think most fans got that, at least.

Just as an extension of this, do we think the Aerith who told Cloud "You can't fall in love with me" is an Aerith who has already experienced the dream date, and that's why she feels that way?

I know it's been brought up before, but I can't remember the consensus on it.

 

[abzy1200]

SE thinks a well told straight forward story about life, the planet

Just to add on to this, I feel like if the re;trilogy wanted to expand it's story it would have been nice if it leaned more into the environmental crisis than they did in the og, seeing as yknow, it's even more topical and relevant than it was in 1997.

They fundamentally don't believe the player has the artistic appreciation required to sit through an entire game without Sephiroth, and thus they slathered him all over the first game, destroying all the mystery and build up had in the original.

Yeah, I find the approach of "well, people know him and you already know the twist, so let's just change it" to be a very bad way to look at adapting a story.

Like, sure, people know Sephiroth now and they'll be expecting him in the re;trilogy, and the "twist" doesn't work as well from a shock pov, but what will be missed out on is WHY people like Sephiroth, or why people remember him.

There are reasons people liked and remembered Sephiroth, him showing up in the first hour of the game to take the piss out of Cloud's mother wasn't one of them.

 

[Eerie]

I am sure that there is a reason, but I just fundamentally don't believe there is any reason that is good enough to justify making a spectacle of Aeriths death and robing it from the sobering realism it has in the original.

I was watching a video on the decision that saved Lord of the rings. In this case the decision they were talking about was to not have Aragorn fight Sauron at the final battle. They realized that the real villain of the story was the ring and that this would take away from the actual point of the story.
They correctly exercised restraint.
The restraint not to make a spectacle and go unnecessarily grand and over the top and have a sword fight with the big bag. They realized that quality comes from QUALITY, not quantity. They respected their audience enough to believe that they'd be able to be intellectually satisfied by a story without having the necessity of having the hero fight to big bad. They lost that restraint in the hobbit where there were hundreds of orcs getting decapitated a second and a 1 hour fight with Smaug. And as a result the movie lost impact.


SE is a thousand times worse. They have zero restraint, zero respect for their audience. They fundamentally don't believe the player has the artistic appreciation required to sit through an entire game without Sephiroth, and thus they slathered him all over the first game, destroying all the mystery and build up had in the original.
They fundamentally don't believe the player has the ability to delay gratification needed to build up to a final showdown, and thus every single part of the remake so far has ended both with kicking Sephiroths ass, and fighting a freaking god. Because SE thinks you're an idiot.

SE thinks a well told straight forward story about life, the planet, and psychology is too boring for you, you need multiple timelines and explosions to be entertained. They can't shock you like they did back in 1997 after all, clearly any approach to Aeriths death that requires the player to just empathize in the moment could never be satisfying to a spoiled ADHD junky like YOU, the player. I mean, we all know that the moment any character dies in a movie (or a book it's based on) that makes all future viewings of the movie (or the initial viewing if its faithful to the book) totally devoid of emotional engagement.

And as a result Aeriths death, a death touted for it's realistic and sober approach to death, one that is final, not like hollywood, and leaves only a sense of emptiness in its wake, is now the most overly dramatic bombastic clusterfuck of hollywood nonsense I have EVER seen. There is zero focus or room for the moment to breathe, there is zero clarity about what is happening or what you're supposed to feel and as a result you feel nothing. Instead we have 2 hours of dumb boss fights against an enemy who lost his threatening presence somewhere around the time that I kicked his ass on the highway, and we even get to fight alongside Aerith again about 5 minutes after her death since, you know, it's not like death means anything.


I am sure they had "a reason" for this, but I really don't care what that reason is, it's not good enough.

Honestly, I think you paint them in a far too evil way. There is a much simpler explanation: the devs want to add to that story, retell in new ways that were not possible in '97 because retelling the same way would be extremely boring and not interesting to them. They're creative, they know they have several parts to push, and they want fans to be involved in the trilogy, to be excited and think about the new mysteries. They want to explain better the LS and how it works, and they want to explain the world better. And they are very excited about the story they're retelling, old as new devs alike. They want to make grand games because they can and because at the end of the day they do enjoy this world and its characters.

Just as an extension of this, do we think the Aerith who told Cloud "You can't fall in love with me" is an Aerith who has already experienced the dream date, and that's why she feels that way?

I know it's been brought up before, but I can't remember the consensus on it.

I don't think there's a consensus, could be either she just died and walked in either after the dream date. Either way she understands that Cloud presents himself in a way that's not the truth, at the very least.

Just to add on to this, I feel like if the re;trilogy wanted to expand it's story it would have been nice if it leaned more into the environmental crisis than they did in the og, seeing as yknow, it's even more topical and relevant than it was in 1997.

They always said they wanted to delve more on the world, the Lifestream and how it worked IIRC, so it was never going to be that grand environmental game some people hoped for.

 

[abzy1200]

They always said they wanted to delve more on the world, the Lifestream and how it worked IIRC, so it was never going to be that grand environmental game some people hoped for.

Yeah, Final Fantasy 7 never really focused too much on it after maybe the first 5 hours of the game so it could focus on other things, but it feels like such an easy and obvious thing to address and expand on.

I don't think there's a consensus, could be either she just died and walked in either after the dream date. Either way she understands that Cloud presents himself in a way that's not the truth, at the very least.

Toriyama says that she brought forth a version of herself from the lifestream, which makes me curious, is all.

 

[pxl_pushr]

There’s a part in the late game where the question of if humanity itself is part of the problem with the dying planet is asked. It’s actually right around the time the White Materia is explained if I remember right.

But this is why I’m on the fence and not in full support: part 3 can just as likely fumble it all as it can click everything into place with an ahah moment.

Certain details about Aerith’s death aren’t supposed to make full sense because that explanation happens later. We are still in the part of the story where you have more questions than answers because disc 2 has all the answers.

Not saying it’s good or bad imo yet, because I’ve got nothing to backup whatever it is I suspect about Rebirth’s ending. Who knows, maybe the subtitle isn’t just for Sephiroth, but for Aerith too.