SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryushikaze]

It is very possible that the Weapons will allow them to survive in the Lifestream, however as I said, the place where they will meet will probably one of those mini-worlds inside the LS, this one created by Cloud's true self (just like Aerith's dream world was hers, as well as other places though but she is a Cetra after all). Those are talked about in Cosmo Canyon by NPC talking there.


That is very true, which is also why you'll notice that I only said that after Tifa realises he's been there all this time it will allow him to become one again xD

I do wonder if him remembering the Promise by himself will haver any impact: after all in his version there was no shooting star, but we know it must've been there. It's also very telling that SE chose to show it once again in Rebirth in another form, as well as in SE with the wallpaper. We know SE loves this scene but it's been pushed oddly in the forefront me think. So I wonder if the lack of shooting star will start something.

I wonder if the fact that he doesn't remember the star will actually prove that he's real... because he was looking away, at Tifa, when it shot down.

It is important to prove that the memories of the Nibelheim incident are true and not made up by Jenova, and this one explains why and how Cloud knows so damn much. It's important for Tifa, who needs to understand, and it's important because it is their love story too. I have said it enough, but I do expect a confession (from both!) and a kiss there, and it can only happen once Cloud is himself.

What I mean is, knowing that it's the real Cloud is important, and knowing he was at Nibelheim, that he came when Tifa was in trouble is important, but learning the exact details of how Cloud bested Sephiroth strikes me as something more important to show to the audience than to Tifa.

When I saw the whole Kalm flashback, I immediately knew that I wanted to see the whole thing with the real story going on, because they put so many clues and details there!

If they show Cloud reconnecting all the distorted memories, that we see the two actually fixing the gaps in all his memories, that would definitely provide context for showing how he bested Sephiroth and make it more important in character to watch all of that.

It's pretty unclear in the Remake series how much Cloud remembers. He seems to remember more than the OG, but we don't know exactly. We know he's blocking out memories of the Nibelheim incident, so my guess is the LSS will hinge on him remembering how he was in Nibelheim and what went down between him and Sephiroth. That's also how Tifa will learn the full picture.

I'd like a scene in the Lifestream to show Cloud enlisting in the army and being rejected from the SOLDIER program. I want them to mention something like, "You have high mako-sensitivity son, if someone like you gets that treatment, you'd lose your sense of self". And then show him meeting Zack and them hanging out. I think it would lead well into the true events of the Nibelheim incident.

I think if they show anything like this is should be elsewhere, and it shouldn't be excused with "Mako sensitivity" but "You don't pass the mental fortitude tests, son"

 

[Skilganon]

??? I mean the LS scene is true Cloud with all his memories anyway, this is beyond the point?

In Remake, Cloud seems to remember the bridge collapse (it might just be because Tifa mentions it). He also remembers Zack when he returns to the Nibelheim Inn. In the OG, he doesn't remember any of this.

I understand that for plot reasons why Remake Cloud remembers certain things, but that means the LSS has less to reveal. So I'm wondering what the 'Big Reveal' of the LSS is going to be if it isn't the bridge collapse.

Also, this may come as a hot take, but I don't think it is really necessary to make the LSS completely romantic. Of course, child Cloud will talk about his crush on Tifa, the sealed up secret wish. Tifa will talk about how she looked in the news for him and waited for him in Nibelheim. I think it will be pretty clear they have feelings for each other by the end of it. But I don't want the message to be that Cloud gets better because a girl likes him. Cloud should accept himself on principle.

I've always felt like the CT relationship starts in earnest at the Highwind Scene. That's when they exchange mutual feelings.

 

[Ryushikaze]

In Remake, Cloud seems to remember the bridge collapse (it might just be because Tifa mentions it). He also remembers Zack when he returns to the Nibelheim Inn. In the OG, he doesn't remember any of this.

There's a bridge collapse in the OG as well, it just happens differently.

 

[Skilganon]

There's a scene in the OG where he remembers the bridge collapse before the LSS? I may be like Cloud, misremembering things. It's been a while since I played the OG.

 

[Ryushikaze]

There's a scene in the OG where he remembers the bridge collapse before the LSS? I may be like Cloud, misremembering things. It's been a while since I played the OG.

The 8 year old event isn't brought up explicitly, but his inner voice does bring up "back then we just got by with scraped knees" after his fall into the church.

The bridge fall in the nibelheim incident involves a very different- IIRC the same bridge?- as the 8 year old event, which is not ever depicted fully, just the moments right beforehand, I think.

 

[Skilganon]

My point was that, originally the bridge collapse was the memory that verified Cloud as an individual, because it's something that Tifa forgot but Cloud recalled for her. It had to come from him.

So... What will be the catalyst in the new LSS? The memory that verfies Cloud as a human with a past. Now that the cat is out of the bag, they'll have to have a different moment. I'm thinking they'll make the finale of the LSS in part 3 Cloud's showdown with Sephiroth in the reactor, since it's something only he knows.

 

[Ryushikaze]

My point was that, originally the bridge collapse was the memory that verified Cloud as an individual, because it's something that Tifa forgot but Cloud recalled for her. It had to come from him.

So... What will be the catalyst in the new LSS? The memory that verfies Cloud as a human with a past. Now that the cat is out of the bag, they'll have to have a different moment. I'm thinking they'll make the finale of the LSS in part 3 Cloud's showdown with Sephiroth in the reactor, since it's something only he knows.

I mean the final of the Lifestream sequence is Cloud merging back with himself and he and Tifa floating together to the real world holding hands.

But no, verifying Cloud's humanity with the Nibelheim incident itself doesn't work. That needs to come after Cloud has been logically and emotionally convinced he is the real Cloud. We've already been shown the mother seeking bridge sequence, that doesn't mean it can't be revisted.

 

[Eerie]

I understand that for plot reasons why Remake Cloud remembers certain things, but that means the LSS has less to reveal. So I'm wondering what the 'Big Reveal' of the LSS is going to be if it isn't the bridge collapse.

The LSS still has plenty to reveal. You are looking at it from a memories point of view, but the LSS is in a place that's more than just memories: I have repeated it, but it's a place where feelings and hopes are crystallised. As I already said, it will be different than the one we saw in Rebirth, and more like Aerith's dream world.

Also, this may come as a hot take, but I don't think it is really necessary to make the LSS completely romantic.

But the OG one was completely romantic. I see no need to change that.

But I don't want the message to be that Cloud gets better because a girl likes him.

I have bad news for you. Cloud only truly opened up after the OG. Until he got with Tifa, everything he did was to make her notice him.

The 8 year old event isn't brought up explicitly, but his inner voice does bring up "back then we just got by with scraped knees" after his fall into the church.

He also brought it up in the Remake scene, and is interrupted by Sephiroth.

My point was that, originally the bridge collapse was the memory that verified Cloud as an individual, because it's something that Tifa forgot but Cloud recalled for her. It had to come from him.

It's not memories they are going to go through, it's feelings and hopes, because they went through their memories A LOT in Rebirth. That's why Tifa sees it, it's because it's not what will be important in the Re-trilogy!LSS.

So... What will be the catalyst in the new LSS?

See above.

We've already been shown the mother seeking bridge sequence, that doesn't mean it can't be revisted.

That too. And seeing how they love to revisit the Promise, we'll get it... again. Yet we saw it in both Remake and Rebirth because it's one of the most important scenes that bond Cloud and Tifa together and that had such an impact on both. Think about the number of times they've redone that scene or alluded to it, it's crazy:

• OG: twice in game + Tifa wallpaper alluding to it
• Remake: once in game + Tifa wallpaper redone
• Rebirth: once in game
• EC: once + cloti wallpaper alluding to it + another in game still has to be done
• p3: most probably once in game

... I do think it's the scene they've revisited the most since the OG.

 

[null]

Also, this may come as a hot take, but I don't think it is really necessary to make the LSS completely romantic. Of course, child Cloud will talk about his crush on Tifa, the sealed up secret wish. Tifa will talk about how she looked in the news for him and waited for him in Nibelheim. I think it will be pretty clear they have feelings for each other by the end of it. But I don't want the message to be that Cloud gets better because a girl likes him. Cloud should accept himself on principle.

I've always felt like the CT relationship starts in earnest at the Highwind Scene. That's when they exchange mutual feelings.

I tend to agree that love shouldn’t take over all aspects of a story, but the way Cloud and Tifa are written, I think it’s pretty much impossible to separate romance from non-romance. This forum even has a rule that you can’t talk about their relationship - literally the most important one in the story - outside of this LTD dungeon.

Maybe the intent of the Lifestream scene was to show Cloud accepting himself, and iirc Tifa even says he did it on his own. But it only happens by revealing how wrapped up they are in each other, which imo sends a more powerful message than them having sex in the grass.

 

[Skilganon]

I get that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is important, but it shouldn't look like they're codependent on each other.

Like, I understand that all of Cloud's childhood demonstrates that he's a simp for Tifa, that isn't what I'm arguing. My point is, one does not graduate from being a simp just because the object of affection happens to like them back. That isn't character progression, at least not to me. Cloud shows a lot of progression in being willing to accept his failures, but his acceptance shouldn't hinge on what Tifa thinks. That just makes him codependent.

The Lifestream scene should work even if Tifa doesn't like him. Imagine you have to bare your soul and all your embarrassing moments to a girl you've liked your entire life, and she doesn't like you back. But she's still willing to help you work things out. That would be even more emotionally impactful, and demonstrate the protagonist's character progression to a far greater degree.

The best couples make each other the best version of themselves, that's why I want to see Cloud and Tifa interact as adults.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I get that Cloud and Tifa's relationship is important, but it shouldn't look like they're codependent on each other.

Like, I understand that all of Cloud's childhood demonstrates that he's a simp for Tifa, that isn't what I'm arguing. My point is, one does not graduate from being a simp just because the object of affection happens to like them back. That isn't character progression, at least not to me. Cloud shows a lot of progression in being willing to accept his failures, but his acceptance shouldn't hinge on what Tifa thinks. That just makes him codependent.

Hold up a minute there, other Tim. It's not codependence for Tifa to learn Cloud definitely has feelings for her while she acts as a guide for him putting himself back together.

The Lifestream scene should work even if Tifa doesn't like him. Imagine you have to bare your soul and all your embarrassing moments to a girl you've liked your entire life, and she doesn't like you back. But she's still willing to help you work things out. That would be even more emotionally impactful, and demonstrate the protagonist's character progression to a far greater degree.

The best couples make each other the best version of themselves, that's why I want to see Cloud and Tifa interact as adults.

This will sound odd initially, but Tifa's emotions re: Cloud are a non factor to the primary purpose of the lifestream. He does not need her approval to piece himself back together, and she does not use that as some sort of carrot on a stick, because she does not yet realize that he's that down bad for her.
What she uses is her faith that Cloud is CLOUD to act as an anchor to help Cloud convince himself that he's real. And part of THAT involves going into the deepest parts of his psyche and confronting his failures and his motivations and being willing to admit to them. That's what helps Cloud coalesce his full psyche and that's what allows him to remember the true events of Nibelheim and prove Sephiroth was lying and Tifa was mistaken.

 

[Skilganon]

This will sound odd initially, but Tifa's emotions re: Cloud are a non factor to the primary purpose of the lifestream. He does not need her approval to piece himself back together, and she does not use that as some sort of carrot on a stick, because she does not yet realize that he's that down bad for her.
What she uses is her faith that Cloud is CLOUD to act as an anchor to help Cloud convince himself that he's real. And part of THAT involves going into the deepest parts of his psyche and confronting his failures and his motivations and being willing to admit to them. That's what helps Cloud coalesce his full psyche and that's what allows him to remember the true events of Nibelheim and prove Sephiroth was lying and Tifa was mistaken.

All of this makes sense to me. But your description of the LSS doesn't sound romantic. In that way, it's more similar to my thinking. Tifa has faith in Cloud, that's what really matters, feelings aside.

 

[Eerie]

All of this makes sense to me. But your description of the LSS doesn't sound romantic. In that way, it's more similar to my thinking. Tifa has faith in Cloud, that's what really matters, feelings aside.

And yet the LSS is the sequence where Cloud and Tifa learned their feelings for each other.

It’s romantic because it’s a long sequence that is very intimate and between the two, about them two and their shared feelings and history. What is more romantic than that?

 

[Ryushikaze]

All of this makes sense to me. But your description of the LSS doesn't sound romantic. In that way, it's more similar to my thinking. Tifa has faith in Cloud, that's what really matters, feelings aside.

The romance arises as a consequence of the sequence, not as a prerequisite for it, though there is a prerequisite of the level of trust and intimacy involved in Tifa calling out for Cloud and him instinctually pulling her in to protect her, leading to her being able to help fix him.

No, the romance comes later, when Cloud reveals his feelings for Tifa as part of the core of his being, and Tifa reveals hers in turn.

 

[null]

I feel like I’m not on the same page with everyone else on what romance means. Or codependency, or simping for that matter.

Edit - by that I mean I wrote a reply and then deleted it after realizing how many different yet valid ways those words can be taken.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Tifa has faith in Cloud, that's what really matters, feelings aside.

I kinda feel like the thread has gone back to arguing about tangential semantics. I mean, you could say that Tifa has faith in Cloud because of her love for him, yes? That the two are intrinsically linked? And it goes back to their romantic feelings because it was Tifa alone who could enter Cloud's soul/psyche and affirm his existence? And if it was platonic, the devs might as well have made it into a group project, lol?

I hope I made sense with that, lol.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I kinda feel like the thread has gone back to arguing about tangential semantics. I mean, you could say that Tifa has faith in Cloud because of her love for him, yes? That the two are intrinsically linked? And it goes back to their romantic feelings because it was Tifa alone who could enter Cloud's soul/psyche and affirm his existence? And if it was platonic, the devs might as well have made it into a group project, lol?

I hope I made sense with that, lol.

To clarify my statements, the feelings are romantic, but the sequence itself works without relying on that romance because, well, neither side is yet sure about the other's romantic feelings.
Tifa isn't using Cloud's romantic feelings and desire to get her attention as a carrot because she doesn't know about it yet (and wouldn't use them even if she knew).

The romantic understanding between the two of them- and the understanding that their interactions have always been tinged with this if you weren't yet aware is the 'reward' for the piecing together of the real Cloud and understanding his deepest desires and motivations.

 

[Ryeleigh]

To clarify my statements, the feelings are romantic, but the sequence itself works without relying on that romance because, well, neither side is yet sure about the other's romantic feelings.

I think what I'm trying to say is that... they don't really need to be aware or sure of each other's romantic feelings but it's still precisely because of those romantic feelings that the Lifestream scene happens? Like, there is a reason why it's just Cloud and Tifa and it's just Cloud and Tifa because their romantic feelings for one another are so tied into the story? So in that sense, it kinda feels as if the thread has gone back to arguing tangential semantics? English isn't my mother language so I'm not sure if I'm expressing my nebulous thoughts well, lol.

So anyway, carry on, lol.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think what I'm trying to say is that... they don't really need to be aware or sure of each other's romantic feelings but it's still precisely because of those romantic feelings that the Lifestream scene happens? Like, there is a reason why it's just Cloud and Tifa and it's just Cloud and Tifa because their romantic feelings for one another are so tied into the story? So in that sense, it kinda feels as if the thread has gone back to arguing tangential semantics? English isn't my mother language so I'm not sure if I'm expressing my nebulous thoughts well, lol.

So anyway, carry on, lol.

I'm not saying Cloud and Tifa are not driven by their romantic love for each other, because they obviously are from years before the game starts.

What I am saying is that Cloud's romantic feelings aren't a factor to how Tifa acts and vice versa. She acts the way she does because she genuinely loves Cloud, he lets her in because he genuinely loves her, but that's a background element throughout most of the lifestream sequence, and them becoming aware of those shared feelings is part of the 'reward' of fixing Cloud's mind.

 

[Ryeleigh]

She acts the way she does because she genuinely loves Cloud, he lets her in because he genuinely loves her, but that's a background element throughout most of the lifestream sequence, and them becoming aware of those shared feelings is part of the 'reward' of fixing Cloud's mind.

Yeah! Exactly!

 

[Skilganon]

I didn't mean to start a conversation about tangential semantics.

When I played the OG, I didn't see the LSS as a primarily romantic moment. That doesn't make it wrong if anyone else sees it that way.

For most of the scene, Cloud's mind is in fragments. Tifa gets clues about Cloud's feelings from talking with the various "child Clouds". In the end, we can question if Cloud is even aware of what Tifa learned. This is why I don't see the LSS as containing a love confession. One of the parties is in compromised state.

That being said, I wouldn't mind the scene being changed to something more overtly romantic, I would just wonder how the Highwind scene would top it.

 

[Edley]

Might be a product of the affection system. Once the splinter Clouds rejoin his main consciousness he's aware that Tifa knows his secrets. I'm still not sure what the intent was with the way they talk/react afterwards, possibly deference to player choice, but it doesn't feel overtly romantic. The first thing Tifa does is call Cloud a "stupid jerk" for worrying everyone and then they realize they have to escape the lifestream.

Afterwards, Cloud shares his true past with the party and Tifa says that he "sure is messed up". The game progresses as if Cloud never left the party and I don't think we get an actual non "gamified" (dialogue that is telling the player what's going on/what to do) dialogue between Tifa and Cloud until they talk about their varying viewpoints on Aerith's death on the bridge of the Highwind. Following that, we don't get anything until the Under the Highwind sequence which of course has the HA/LA versions. The High Affection has confirmation that they remember:

Cloud

Someday we'll find the answer. Right, Tifa? That's what I learned from you when I was in the Lifestream.

It would feel like a giant compromise if the best girl point system reared its head in part 3, so I think it's a safe guess to say that LSS and UTH will be expanded and altered for Retrilogy.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I didn't mean to start a conversation about tangential semantics.

When I played the OG, I didn't see the LSS as a primarily romantic moment. That doesn't make it wrong if anyone else sees it that way.

I think the key word there is 'primarily' as the romance is an undercurrent for most of it, to be sure.

For most of the scene, Cloud's mind is in fragments. Tifa gets clues about Cloud's feelings from talking with the various "child Clouds". In the end, we can question if Cloud is even aware of what Tifa learned. This is why I don't see the LSS as containing a love confession. One of the parties is in compromised state.

That being said, I wouldn't mind the scene being changed to something more overtly romantic, I would just wonder how the Highwind scene would top it.

I mean, you aren't limited to just one romantic scene per game. FF16 had several.

Might be a product of the affection system. Once the splinter Clouds rejoin his main consciousness he's aware that Tifa knows his secrets. I'm still not sure what the intent was with the way they talk/react afterwards, possibly deference to player choice, but it doesn't feel overtly romantic. The first thing Tifa does is call Cloud a "stupid jerk" for worrying everyone and then they realize they have to escape the lifestream.

Honestly? Nah, I don't think the AV had much of anything to do with it. The romantic moments in prior FF games were pretty short and sweet. Hell, Lunar Silver Star Story which is game in which the love between a man and a woman is literally the key to saving the world is pretty perfunctory with its romance scenes.
That said "You stupid jerk, you had us so worried" is kinda bog standard romance cliche in a lot of Japanese works.

Afterwards, Cloud shares his true past with the party and Tifa says that he "sure is messed up".

That one's a bad translation. The JP line is more like "Back to the grumpy/ moody Cloud I remember." referencing how she remembers him from their youth, which prompts Barret's "So what's the difference" joke.

The game progresses as if Cloud never left the party and I don't think we get an actual non "gamified" (dialogue that is telling the player what's going on/what to do) dialogue between Tifa and Cloud until they talk about their varying viewpoints on Aerith's death on the bridge of the Highwind. Following that, we don't get anything until the Under the Highwind sequence which of course has the HA/LA versions. The High Affection has confirmation that they remember:

Cloud

Someday we'll find the answer. Right, Tifa? That's what I learned from you when I was in the Lifestream.

It would feel like a giant compromise if the best girl point system reared its head in part 3, so I think it's a safe guess to say that LSS and UTH will be expanded and altered for Retrilogy.

I honestly think the dev crunch was to blame there. I mean the game got pushed back a month right before release and even then it wasn't fully finished leading to the additions in US and INTL versions.

That said, holy fuck yes I think we're getting greatly expanded and enhanced versions of both sequences for Recompile.


Goddammit, after remake project we could get a legitimate "Recompilation" project.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I didn't mean to start a conversation about tangential semantics.

When I played the OG, I didn't see the LSS as a primarily romantic moment. That doesn't make it wrong if anyone else sees it that way.

For most of the scene, Cloud's mind is in fragments. Tifa gets clues about Cloud's feelings from talking with the various "child Clouds". In the end, we can question if Cloud is even aware of what Tifa learned. This is why I don't see the LSS as containing a love confession. One of the parties is in compromised state.

That being said, I wouldn't mind the scene being changed to something more overtly romantic, I would just wonder how the Highwind scene would top it.

Don't worry about it! I just felt that it was kind of "beside the point" to argue whether LSS is romantic or not romantic since the reason why it's just Tifa and Cloud there is because of their love each other, you know? But I still don't know the best way to convey my nebulous thoughts on it so the thread may carry on, lol.

 

[Xannis]

When I played the OG, I didn't see the LSS as a primarily romantic moment. That doesn't make it wrong if anyone else sees it that way.

I don't think it's "Romantic" in the literal sense. If I tell my wife about a scene and I call it "Romantic" she's going to assume it involves physicality and/or sex which the LS Sequence of course doesn't get in to. That being said the LS sequence has two major beats. First is to get to the truth of Cloud's identity. Second is the reveal of his feelings for Tifa so it's definitely "Romantic" in the sense that it covers that kind of material, I just would not call it a romance scene. You could, however, describe the LS Sequence to someone and say "It was really romantic" and that would make sense IMO.

For most of the scene, Cloud's mind is in fragments. Tifa gets clues about Cloud's feelings from talking with the various "child Clouds". In the end, we can question if Cloud is even aware of what Tifa learned. This is why I don't see the LSS as containing a love confession. One of the parties is in compromised state.

Now that's an interesting take I haven't seen. I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure they discuss what happened in the LS later and it seems clearly implied that they have a complete memory of it.

Even if not I don't know how you make the case that Cloud comes out of the LS sequence completely clear on who he is/was and what happened but that particular part (the confession) of it remains suppressed. The entire implication of his speech to the crew after the LS Sequence is that he remembers everything that happened in the LS. Seems pretty all or nothing to me. Either he recalls what happened in the LS completely or he doesn't and thus would be no better off than when he started.

As for Cloud having any doubts about what Tifa may or may not have learned in the LS I need to replay but again I'm fairly sure there are follow up dialog(s) that confirm she's completely aware and he's aware.