SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Wanderer]

Besides that, I think it was Kitase who said that a lot of people who played FFVII OG never actually finished it (I guessed they stopped at Aerith's death) so they missed disc 2 which is arguably the best of what FFVII has to offer, story-wise. And it'll be encompassed all in one game for p3 so they do hope that a lot of people are going to play it to get the full experience (but it makes me quite nervous because damn, they have to stick the landing, and I'm not talking about only ships or LT here).

I am 99 percent sure it is going to be the same ending cause all interviews leading up to AC give it away; I fully trust them tbh I was really worried after part 1 cause every YouTuber was like everything is going to change in part 2 and a certain YouTuber spread fake rumors about what was going to happen but Rebirth blew all my worries away I fully trust them now.

 

[Eerie]

I am 99 percent sure it is going to be the same ending cause all interviews leading up to AC give it away; I fully trust them tbh I was really worried after part 1 cause every YouTuber was like everything is going to change in part 2 and a certain YouTuber spread fake rumors about what was going to happen but Rebirth blew all my worries away I fully trust them now.

It's not the where (I suspect they will incorporate some of the OtWtaS whenever possible), it's the how that worries me. When I look at Aerith's death scene, this is what I fear because this scene is not about Aerith, her death and her loss but rather what effect loss has on Cloud. I felt sad for exactly 0.2 seconds in that scene, when the materia hit the ground...

 

[Wanderer]

It's not the where (I suspect they will incorporate some of the OtWtaS whenever possible), it's the how that worries me. When I look at Aerith's death scene, this is what I fear because this scene is not about Aerith, her death and her loss but rather what effect loss has on Cloud. I felt sad for exactly 0.2 seconds in that scene, when the materia hit the ground...

Considering that was their intention with the scene, I think they successfully got the reaction they wanted out of you as a player, but Aerith in the game says It is about Cloud.

 

[Eerie]

Considering that was their intention with the scene, I think they successfully got the reaction they wanted out of you as a player, but Aerith in the game says It is about Cloud.

I don't think disappointment was their goal tbh.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I doubt the execution will be the same, or rather they’ll add context to what the ending actually is and I see it possibly meaning something different from what people expect.

For example, final dual will still be Cloud v Sephiroth, but it’s going to be a full on spectacle and may not be as simple as “Cloud is purging Sephiroth from his mind” and will be a marathon of a fight. Wouldn’t be shocked if o get flashbacks to Metal Gear Solid 4…

 

[Skilganon]

I've been very wary of the meta-textual elements in the Remake series(Whispers, alternate worlds, time-traveling Sephiroth). I don't think it adds anything to the story, in fact I'm beginning to think these elements detract from the story.

For the simple reason that the OG story was complicated enough. What infuriates me is watching people who haven't played OG stream Rebirth and conclude that the reason for Cloud and Tifa's memories being different regarding Nibelheim is due to timeline shenanigans.

I don't mind the new events, characters, characterizations. Those are all fantastic. But none of this needs to be explained by invoking FATE. This is why I share your worries about the ending of the Remake trilogy. It has the potential to be incredibly moving. Let's hope SE shows some restraint.

 

[Empyrea]

Considering that was their intention with the scene, I think they successfully got the reaction they wanted out of you as a player, but Aerith in the game says It is about Cloud.

As someone who barely felt much for the OG scene, I felt even less for this one. I got that they shifted the focus, but I felt it was overdone at that point. Like, I get it, Cloud's head is messed up all the way to Sunday. But why hammer that in here, too? In what was supposed to be Aerith's swan song game? Not to mention, the same game that's as subtle as a hollowblock to the face about Cloud's issues.

That scene needed to breathe. Regardless of how I reacted to the OG scene, I appreciated that it gave a quiet moment for the party to grieve and let it sink to both them and the player that Aerith really is gone.

I don't mind the new events, characters, characterizations. Those are all fantastic. But none of this needs to be explained by invoking FATE. This is why I share your worries about the ending of the Remake trilogy. It has the potential to be incredibly moving. Let's hope SE shows some restraint.

Seconded. I'm still worried about how they'll do part 3 cause of this.

 

[Eerie]

I agree generally but fate was a big theme too in the OG, especially once Meteor is summoned, it’s evoked more than once by random NPCs noticeably. I think there are other points where it’s mentioned too but it was a big talking point so it’s not surprising that it was expanded too.

 

[Hellenic]

As someone who barely felt much for the OG scene, I felt even less for this one. I got that they shifted the focus, but I felt it was overdone at that point. Like, I get it, Cloud's head is messed up all the way to Sunday. But why hammer that in here, too? In what was supposed to be Aerith's swan song game? Not to mention, the same game that's as subtle as a hollowblock to the face about Cloud's issues.

That scene needed to breathe. Regardless of how I reacted to the OG scene, I appreciated that it gave a quiet moment for the party to grieve and let it sink to both them and the player that Aerith really is gone.

The first time around it didn't really help me that i got kinda annoyed at the Sephi boss rush when i accidentally reset the whole thing after wiping at the final fight and having to do all of it again. Then all the 10 different Aerith fades to the air and wakes up again moments just got overdone and didn't do much for me.

On later playthroughs and having soaked up the scene properly, i do feel a bit emotional over it, though less so compared to some other scenes in the game + Tifas reaction to her death is honestly the saddest part for me overall here still.

I do kinda like the delusional Cloud angle they are going for this time though even if it did end up sacrificing a lot of the impact for the moment itself here.

 

[AncientGrim]

I don't think disappointment was their goal tbh.

Nor frustration.

Not frustration in the sense that the ending is both confusing, intentionally obfuscating, and exhaustingly zeroed in on Cloud at the expense of the other character’s emotions and experiences of the event, but frustrating that the developers in their handling of the ending, make no choice at all, which is I think a really cowardly creative move.

I get their intent, and the desire to create conversation and theory crafting as a means to hopefully sustain interest in the wait for Part 3, which tracks with their handling of Remake’s ending too.

But Remake had the greater creative freedom there to do it. We all knew its endpoint, leaving Midgar, was a high note in the original, the leaving behind of the city and setting out in the open world. That’s left relatively intact, they keep the excitement of the adventure and unknown journey ahead whilst also allowing for new mysteries for the audience to mull over in the wait for Rebirth.

The ending of Rebirth shouldn’t have had this in my opinion, not when they decided to end it at the Forgotten City, and with Aerith’s death.

They shouldn’t have traded one of the original’s most impactful and emotionally resonant scenes, with a puzzle box of innumerable dangling plot threads that weren’t present in the original, mysteries that at once seem to contradict and further muddle characterisations and motivations, that ultimately, like I said before, fail to actually commit to anything at all, for the purpose of vague clues and hints that may mean one thing or another, it doesn’t matter, it all comes at the expense of the story, the characters, the audiences emotional response to the ending of a very lengthy middle entry in a trilogy of games, where the context of how its ending is received now will be changed by how Part 3 delivers on its many questions and promises, and whether it sticks its own landing.

Aerith deserved better. All the others deserved better. Because in the ending they are acting in service to Cloud’s character and his character only, and in service to the pressures of needing to sustain the audience interest by giving theorycrafters plenty to chew over but leaving nothing to emotionally reflect on for the characters we spent potentially over a 100 hours following.

They could easily have kept the current mysteries ongoing, already enough for theories and speculation, and committed to a choice in Rebirth’s ending. Aerith didn’t need to be sacrificed (pun unintended) in what should of been her big moment, her character utilised solely for intrigue ignoring what I believe the vast majority of the audience actually cared about in this moment.

Having a satisfying conclusion to this stage of the journey, and a farewell to Aerith in this entry that actually respects her character and her importance to the party besides Cloud.

 

[Skilganon]

I agree completely. It feels like the ending catered to theory-crafters at the expense of everyone else. Which is weird because I actually like deciphering obscure lore and hidden meanings. And upon repeated viewings, I have come to some conclusions about what is really going on in that ending, and why some parts of the credits are blocked out.

I still however, think these aspects are largely unnecessary.

They could have instead focused solely on Aerith's inner conflict: Does she leave the party to attempt to summon holy on her own? Or does she stay with the party, where Cloud, unwilling to face his own problems, is a liability to everyone? This is a hard to choice to make, and I think it would have improved the story greatly to, instead of having a dream date, have an extended conversation between Aerith and Cloud in the sleeping forest about why exactly she's leaving, her frustration at Cloud specifically (I just think someone should have yelled at Cloud at some point). Explain all the choices leading up to her leaving the party behind to face Sephiroth alone. It doesn't have to be just about Cloud.

 

[Nancy]

They could have instead focused solely on Aerith's inner conflict: Does she leave the party to attempt to summon holy on her own? Or does she stay with the party, where Cloud, unwilling to face his own problems, is a liability to everyone? This is a hard to choice to make, and I think it would have improved the story greatly to, instead of having a dream date, have an extended conversation between Aerith and Cloud in the sleeping forest about why exactly she's leaving, her frustration at Cloud specifically (I just think someone should have yelled at Cloud at some point). Explain all the choices leading up to her leaving the party behind to face Sephiroth alone. It doesn't have to be just about Cloud.

I feel like the devs didn't do that because they know OG players know Aerith left on her own to summon holy but the new players, they either get it or they don't which the game will explain in part 3 by the time they head back to the FC

I thought the dream date was unnecessary at first but then when you think of that Aerith not being the one we travel with & is in fact og Aerith then I guess you can say the devs put the dream date in there for a reason consider og Aerith never got the chance to say goodbye to Cloud, just like when she mention her & Cloud never getting a pic together during the walk around sector 5 unlike rebirth Aerith getting to take a pic with Cloud

Considering rebirth was supposed to be Aerith's game, I thought maybe the devs would have a section where we play as Aerith, for the last time, as she heads to the FC on her own because that is what I always thought of after playing the og on how she even got there & how she knew where the place is, but sadly the devs instead have Aerith follow the team for a short while & left disappear on her own

 

[Skilganon]

Maybe a hot take, but I don't think Cloud and Aerith needed closure. Aerith's death is meant to be incredibly sudden and tragic. Foreshadowing it with all these ominous dream-like moments just drags it out and lessens the impact.

In the OG, Aerith dying without closure and in a way that seemed preventable made fans gather signatures to petition SquareSoft to revive her. That her death is unfair is the point.

In Rebirth, the atmosphere around Aerith's death has completely changed. It wasn't the death itself (Though it was treated like a tacky laser-light show), it was the moment when Nanaki said in the sleeping forest, "Do you think it was our destiny to be separated from Aerith?"(Paraphrasing).

So Aerith is not making a brash decision when she feels she has no one to depend on, which leads to her untimely tragic death like in the OG, that causes Cloud to finally be introspective about why Sephiroth has such a hold on him.

She is instead, fulfilling her obligation to the planet to die ceremoniously and become a Goddess in the Life stream, as dictated by her Cetra heritage. It takes away all agency from Aerith's decision to leave the party.

This is what imagining FATE as an entity does to a story. It means that all the characters are on rails and whatever motivations they appear to have is just window dressing. Aerith was going to die anyway, so let's just focus on her being sad about it and telling everyone to 'embrace the moment' for the dozenth time... even though we secretly know nothing can change her fate. I don't find this satisfying at all.

I don't want this to seem like I'm completely negative about Rebirth. I loved the game. I liked the ending more than Remake's at least.

 

[Empyrea]

Aerith was going to die anyway, so let's just focus on her being sad about it and telling everyone to 'embrace the moment' for the dozenth time... even though we secretly know nothing can change her fate. I don't find this satisfying at all.

Which...I argue they kinda failed to do anyway because Aerith spent just as much time doing that as her bonding with mostly Cloud and sometimes Nanaki and Tifa.

See, the dream date could probably work on paper, but it annoys me how focused it is on just Cloud and Aerith. Then later Aerith is praying, asking how she can protect everyone. The two aren't mutually exclusive, but more instances of Aerith bonding with everybody else would make that statement hit more -- at least to me.

 

[Skilganon]

I might be repeating myself, but I don't think they should have had the dream date to begin with.

If Cloud and Aerith need to bond, they should bond over learning the Cetra history, or what the White materia is (We still have no extended backstory on that). Instead they focus on a stillborn romance.

One factor that doesn't get mentioned enough about the dream date is that the Aerith we meet isn't "our" Aerith. While Cloud is experiencing the dream, our Aerith is conscious and leading the party to the Forgotten Capital. This fact alone invalidates most common interpretations.

Because the feelings expressed by this Aerith might not be the same as our Aerith. And what different experiences has she had, seeing she might be from the future? And if she's seen Cloud end up with Tifa, what does the whole date represent? Or is she from an alternate timeline? Meanwhile, our Aerith drops all pretense of romance, if we can conclude that the Aerith Cloud meets in the Sleeping Forest is indeed ours.

Perhaps the devs have some grand plan behind all this?

 

[Reaper3Delta]

I might be repeating myself, but I don't think they should have had the dream date to begin with.

If Cloud and Aerith need to bond, they should bond over learning the Cetra history, or what the White materia is (We still have no extended backstory on that). Instead they focus on a stillborn romance.

One factor that doesn't get mentioned enough about the dream date is that the Aerith we meet isn't "our" Aerith. While Cloud is experiencing the dream, our Aerith is conscious and leading the party to the Forgotten Capital. This fact alone invalidates most common interpretations.

Because the feelings expressed by this Aerith might not be the same as our Aerith. And what different experiences has she had, seeing she might be from the future? And if she's seen Cloud end up with Tifa, what does the whole date represent? Or is she from an alternate timeline? Meanwhile, our Aerith drops all pretense of romance, if we can conclude that the Aerith Cloud meets in the Sleeping Forest is indeed ours.

Perhaps the devs have some grand plan behind all this?

From what I understood from Remake and Rebirth; THE Aer from DD might be the same from Remake's resolution as told by the Devs being a LS vestige from a near future closer to her end. Her memories that a C/A romantic relation does not work is passed thru the white materia to the Sleeping Forest Aer (Current Aerith), so she regains all those memories then she remembered/realized what's going on and resigned from pursuing Cloud and accept she can not move on from Zack and that Cloud shows no interest in her.

 

[Hellenic]

The dream date more than anything was likely just to give us some Clerith closure to the players themselves, even if it was unneccessary and i guess an excuse to get a new full white materia after the current one got emptied out by the Whispers.

Nonetheless i don't really like having to deal with multiple Aeriths with these scenes. Wish it was just one and the same Aerith who travelled with us instead of doing these weird meta things with OG Aeriths or whatever.

 

[Empyrea]

I didn't mind the whole multiple Aeriths deal at first, but the more I thought about it, the more it felt like the devs either wrote themselves in a corner cause of conflicting approaches (mainly, highlighting CT and wanting to give CA closure for its fans) or wanting to have their cake and eat it, too. It could even very well be both.

Either way, it makes her feelings a bit harder to pinpoint for certain.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I’m still not entirely sure we’re dealing with multiple Aerith’s as in “this” Aerith is OG Aerith or “our” Aerith is a brand new Aerith etc

I think it’s all similar to what we’ll see with Cloud in the LSS. His ego is shown through multiple Clouds that represent the pieces of his subconscious that need to be aligned in order to remake Cloud as his true self.

When you shine white light through a prism, it splits into a spectrum of colors. I take this as a visual representation of how minds work in this setting. The Aerith of the DD is simply a fragment of her, whichever fragment needed to experience this in order to align herself with the rest of Aerith.

This piece of her is a combination of memories, hopes/dreams, personality traits, all she associates with Sector 5, the time she spent with Zack, and what she deeply hoped she could experience for herself in reality.

Simplest way I’ve looked at it for now is we’re seeing Aerith setting aside the part of her that’s “Aerith, the flower girl of Sector 5” and embracing “Aerith, the last living Cetra”. You could probably split her into the same pieces as Cloud, but this is simpler in my mind.

I can see the subtle part of her story in part 3 being her accepting that she’s actually both, and it was never a choice between them. One never had to come at the cost of the other.

I’d like to think you can apply the same thinking to Zack and his sections. Him coming to terms with the different desires he felt were left unfulfilled after getting gunned down. We cover them now so we can better understand why the LSS works with Cloud and Tifa later, and what will need to happen at the end of the story.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I didn't mind the whole multiple Aeriths deal at first, but the more I thought about it, the more it felt like the devs either wrote themselves in a corner cause of conflicting approaches (mainly, highlighting CT and wanting to give CA closure for its fans) or wanting to have their cake and eat it, too. It could even very well be both.

Either way, it makes her feelings a bit harder to pinpoint for certain.

I just hope that they do ZA well in P3. I don't think there were that many scenes between them in Crisis Core, compared to the two whole games that she spent with Cloud. Even if a lot of those two games consisted of mutual pining but it still isn't quite the same as seeing ZA interact with each other, as adults. But I really want them to do justice to that quote "her first love is always by her side", though I think I'm paraphrasing that. So here's manifesting that from the universe too, lol.

This piece of her is a combination of memories, hopes/dreams, personality traits, all she associates with Sector 5, the time she spent with Zack, and what she deeply hoped she could experience for herself in reality.

This got me thinking that the dream date might also be about her putting that "what if" of Cloud to rest? It ended with Cloud telling her that they're friends and her unsure what kind of like it was after all, which I hope will get its definite answer when she reunites with Zack in P3.

Also, this is kind of unrelated to the current discussion but I've seen people mock Zack for this scene so I'll just add this here:

Spoiler

The scene where he thinks about going to Hojo to help Cloud. It's obvious that he's doing it to help Cloud and Aerith because who better to ask questions from than the dude who put Cloud in the condition he's in? It's also obvious that he doesn't really want to do it (the flashback of Hojo), but he resolves to do it anyway because he doesn't know what else to do. So I don't know, seeing the bad faith comments and arguments about that scene was annoying.

Spoilered just in case. Though, I'm sure everyone here has already at least seen a playthrough of Rebirth. xD

 

[pxl_pushr]

I just hope that they do ZA well in P3. I don't think there were that many scenes between them in Crisis Core, compared to the two whole games that she spent with Cloud. Even if a lot of those two games consisted of mutual pining but it still isn't quite the same as seeing ZA interact with each other, as adults. But I really want them to do justice to that quote "her first love is always by her side", though I think I'm paraphrasing that. So here's manifesting that from the universe too, lol.


This got me thinking that the dream date might also be about her putting that "what if" of Cloud to rest? It ended with Cloud telling her that they're friends and her unsure what kind of like it was after all, which I hope will get its definite answer when she reunites with Zack in P3.

Also, this is kind of unrelated to the current discussion but I've seen people mock Zack for this scene so I'll just add this here:

Spoiler

The scene where he thinks about going to Hojo to help Cloud. It's obvious that he's doing it to help Cloud and Aerith because who better to ask questions from than the dude who put Cloud in the condition he's in? It's also obvious that he doesn't really want to do it (the flashback of Hojo), but he resolves to do it anyway because he doesn't know what else to do. So I don't know, seeing the bad faith comments and arguments about that scene was annoying.

Spoilered just in case. Though, I'm sure everyone here has already at least seen a playthrough of Rebirth. xD

That’s what makes me think Zack’s sections are very much about aspects of himself even if he’s existing in a dreamworld based around Aerith. He’s the one being tested and prodded for a majority of it.

In terms of the DD, I think hearing Cloud’s feelings (or at least the feelings of Cloud who’s working half a full deck) was one of the goals. She didn’t want to feel uncertainty towards him like she did with Zack. WE know Zack loves her unflinchingly, but she doesn’t since he vanished on her after promising to come see her. We know why, but she doesn’t.

It’s almost like her mind/heart is asking questions: “did he cherish our time like I did?” “What kind of like do I feel?” “Was he a second chance at what I felt before?”

The reunion pin is an interesting callback to Remake, but my suspicions are more a theory than anything. Could help wrap some of this up in part 3 and still allow for the “koibito” line in CoLW

I think part 3 will close that loop, though I’m not sure when. It can’t take up too much time and I can’t imagine it coming up any earlier than the middle or the final act. I want ZA to get a strong moment, but both characters being dead should mean we don’t see them every other hour.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I’m still not entirely sure we’re dealing with multiple Aerith’s as in “this” Aerith is OG Aerith or “our” Aerith is a brand new Aerith etc

I think it’s all similar to what we’ll see with Cloud in the LSS. His ego is shown through multiple Clouds that represent the pieces of his subconscious that need to be aligned in order to remake Cloud as his true self.

When you shine white light through a prism, it splits into a spectrum of colors. I take this as a visual representation of how minds work in this setting. The Aerith of the DD is simply a fragment of her, whichever fragment needed to experience this in order to align herself with the rest of Aerith.

This piece of her is a combination of memories, hopes/dreams, personality traits, all she associates with Sector 5, the time she spent with Zack, and what she deeply hoped she could experience for herself in reality.

Simplest way I’ve looked at it for now is we’re seeing Aerith setting aside the part of her that’s “Aerith, the flower girl of Sector 5” and embracing “Aerith, the last living Cetra”. You could probably split her into the same pieces as Cloud, but this is simpler in my mind.

I can see the subtle part of her story in part 3 being her accepting that she’s actually both, and it was never a choice between them. One never had to come at the cost of the other.

I’d like to think you can apply the same thinking to Zack and his sections. Him coming to terms with the different desires he felt were left unfulfilled after getting gunned down. We cover them now so we can better understand why the LSS works with Cloud and Tifa later, and what will need to happen at the end of the story.

I do think seeing Dream Aerith as distinct from Forest Aerith is still important because even if both are born from the same mind, and rejoin, they are not the same at that moment. Sort of like- if I may bring up something else nerdy for a moment- how the character Multiple Man works.

For those not familiar, Multiple Man has the power to create duplicates of himself that are distinct, fully independent beings. They share his memories and opinions, but are not mentally linked to him. When his duplicates merge back with him he retains the memories of all of them, but if one of them dies before merging, the unique memories of that duplicate are lost.

 

[Skilganon]

Nonetheless i don't really like having to deal with multiple Aeriths with these scenes. Wish it was just one and the same Aerith who travelled with us instead of doing these weird meta things with OG Aeriths or whatever.

I didn't mind the whole multiple Aeriths deal at first, but the more I thought about it, the more it felt like the devs either wrote themselves in a corner cause of conflicting approaches (mainly, highlighting CT and wanting to give CA closure for its fans) or wanting to have their cake and eat it, too. It could even very well be both.

Either way, it makes her feelings a bit harder to pinpoint for certain.

100% The idea of multiple Aeriths casts a shadow over the entire CA relationship. The two versions we see act different. Cloud even points this out, "Why are you acting so weird? This isn't you." They might as well be different people. So when Dream Aerith confesses her feelings, it isn't relevant. It isn't really closure. Beagle-Aerith's feelings are what matter.

 

[Eerie]

This is not for CA though it gives a closure to it, it is for CoLW Aerith. I think Nojima regrets writing her too Cloud-centric and she needed to go, so he linked that scene to CoLW, but he also killed her. All her worlds died (she hid there behind a maze of worlds that we see Zack going through at some point later on), so it’s safe to assume she died. I am sure she wanted more power and knowledge so she sent her younger self that since she was a kid (visions of the future), because she felt really powerless towards Sephiroth in the Lifestream.

In a way think of CoLW happening before p3 of the trilogy.

 

[eleamaya]

The hate from loud CAs in Zerith tag on Twitter made me vent to ChatGPT. It makes me so relief. It's a long chat and I talk more about CA & ZA as pairings and Aerith's feelings for both guys (because they also attack ZAs not caring about Aerith, we do care!). I copy-paste it on gdrive and share it. Sometimes I mention Cloti but it's not the main focus of the talk. I also mention Seifer X Rinoa.

Venting about Zerith on ChatGPT

Can you help me prompting the ideas of Couple Event Week? The couple name is Zack x Aerith (Zerith). And they're star-crossed lovers, Zack died first and Aerith follows later on, both are being murdered though, not suicide like Romeo x Juliet. But when they're together, they're a happy couple wit...

docs.google.com

(Actually, it starts from me asking ChatGPT to make prompt suggestion for Zerith Week. But its answer is so beautiful that make me crying so I talk more and vent)