SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

If Tifa was trying to confess alone then I argue that it's even less necessary to get her scene. I already had realized by that point she had feelings for Cloud by the time I got to Mideel so I didn't see it as strange she would pick Cloud there. I was pissed she hadn't told him the truth but I understood she loved him and later on it made sense why she had not told him.

Tifa's words before Cloud falls in the reactor, her jealousy in the Shinra building, her waiting for Cloud in the Shinra building by the elevator etc. all those moments made it clear she had feelings for him.

As for Aerith, you say you can figure out the connection between Zack and Cloud from Gongaga. I really don't think it's the same. That's about her feelings for Zack sure and the mystery that he went missing. But not really connected to Cloud himself.
In her date she literally says she's searching for Cloud as a hint that Zack is connected to his identity issues. Something you just don't get from Gongaga. Aerith's date is not just about her feelings. And yes the Lifestream scene reveals it was Zack in Nibelheim but no where is it mentioned that Aerith's attraction to Cloud started from being reminded due to similarities with Zack which is the connection between Cloud Aerith and Zack and clears up the narrative there even more. It does close her arc I agree, but also without it I feel it's a bit of a gaping hole in not just her arc but for the connection with Zack. We get told Cloud heard the story from Zack and made illusionary world but Aerith basically tells us the extent of that: he did that to the point their mannerisms were the same.

Edit: It just also feels a bit anticlimactic and empty without this "I want to meet you" reveal where she admits her feelings on the similarities. Without it if feels like Zack's some random dude she once dated who she thought left her for another girl according to Gongaga....okay but why do we care? Her date is basically the answer on why we care.
It also is important to clarify her motivations. It explains why in the beginning she basically locked Cloud in her house and took the long way to stall him and ask about Zack. Without her date you never really get an answer other than "Oh well I guess she liked Cloud?" But there was clearly more than that there.

I'm not saying Tifa's date is not important in terms of her own feelings but in terms of missing information I definitely think not getting Aerith's date in OG does leave a giant hole in not just her story but part of her story with Zack. Edit: Even if you can figure it out without it's still feels a bit lacking and empty without it also she wouldn't get an arc resolution.

Also Gongaga in OG was completely missable so even more so. Zack in the LS would have come out of nowhere.

I don't see the OG dates as just fanservice. At least not Aerith's and Tifa's. That's just my own thoughts. However as I said they definitely changed it up for Rebirth.

Edit: clarified my point. Disclaimer: Also I'm not arguing Tifa's OG date is completely useless either in case anyone wants to twist my words to put her date down. I'm not doing that.
It's obviously important to her arc and doesn't contradict anything and it fits continuity. I just don't think you're missing out on crucial information if you skip it because her feelings for Cloud are kinda shown throughout. Whereas Aerith's arc feels weird and unresolved without her date.

See, in Tifa's date, you actually see Cloud wanting to know what Tifa wanted to say; so for the player, the flow is simply better to understand why he says "only what you say matters" and why she chooses to remain by his side in Mideel. If you don't go through that, those two moments fall flat and you may end up really resentful towards Tifa that she leaves the group at such a crucial moment (many did, in fact, not like that Mideel scene; it takes more time annnnnnnnd a better translation to understand her).

And yes I agree that Aerith's date is important for her own arc. But I don't feel it's that important to understand the story as a whole. I think there are way more obstacles to that (aka the really bad translation) than missing Aerith's date. You know back then I hated both Cloud and Aerith so that date was really a CHORE to me lol. The play didn't end well xD

As for "what" Tifa is trying to confess, it is probably meant to be ambivalent. Just like Aerith's date, the romantic atmosphere makes the player focus on the romantic feelings of the girls, but later reveals will force them to add up also a deeper reading as regards Cloud's persona: "so that's the nod between Cloud and Zack" / "so that's why Tifa was reluctant to speak openly with Cloud".

I don't think it was ambivalent because she already questioned his identity.

Why would she bring it again? This simply doesn't fit. Tifa's date is the 100% romantic one because she is the real love interest, that's what her date is signaling. And also that Cloud is interested in her. If I had had her date in my first run, maybe I would've understood why she stayed back in Mideel. But with Aerith's date, all I got with that was the ToA with freaking Cait's reading CA, and then Aerith's death which I wasn't sure wasn't going to be made into a "lover lamenting the loss of his love" type of thing once Cloud would be back. So yeah drop this arse Tifa, wtf are you doing was my exact reaction because those were the informations I got from a game that wanted to make me really believe in that poor love story (Cloud was an arsehole period).

To understand perfectly the game and why it goes that way, you HAVE to have Tifa's date. YES I agree you have to have Aerith's date too to understand HER arc but that's the OG problem, it's that it assumes that you replay it several times when most players stop after Disc 1. And it shouldn't push you that hard into thinking CA is the romance pair because what you miss is important for the comprehension of the game. I truly think that the Remake trilogy, at least, is good on that point because it pushes CT as the romantic pair and makes a lot of people actually understand that side of the story. And yeah, you still see the most theorycrafters newcomers actually understand what's going on. Yes someone theorised that Aerith was attracted to Cloud because of Zack, before even arriving in Nibelheim. So now with the 4K it's completely possible to understand the story even without Aerith's date. But the trilogy also really wants you to watch all the dates to fully understand the relationships Cloud has with the others, and made it easier compared to the OG.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@Eerie

I think what you refer to could definitely helped maybe CTs and people open to CT already to understand the story more. But I don't think it's the main obstacle non CTs have in misunderstanding.

Using myself as an example. I had already figured out Cloud respects whatever Tifa says and she has feelings with him in the scene where the reactor is exploding and you can choose to be strong or tell her you can't hold on and her response to basically almost throw herself after him.

My resentment for Tifa came from thinking that she didn't seek him out to say anything about him being weird. I thought it was her fault that Sephiroth tricked him because she was too scared to say something.

To this day a lot of Tifa antis won't only argue that she didn't have feelings or love him. Not even only that he didn't have feelings for her. They'll argue that his problems were her fault and new people will sometimes also fall for it. And I was basically like them during this part. So I think that's the obstacle to understanding the story needed for less misunderstandings more than her feelings or even Cloud's feelings.

As I've been saying I don't think CT is anything farfetched. It hits all the recognizable notes of a childhood friends becoming lovers later on life romance. The problem is not that people don't see that as much as we didn't see their thoughts for a huge part of the game. And there are many misconceptions made around those parts.

The translation also didn't help but for me it was Cloud freaking out and Tifa not saying anything. When Sephiroth tricked Cloud that she was betraying him I totally believed Sephiroth too for a moment like omg is he really a puppet and she knew all along but didn't say anything??? Because she's in love and didn't want to lose him??? And Sephiroth knows??? And that's why I blamed her. The game literally doesn't tell hint you much about what was happening with him to deny it. I had no clue so I went to my first conclusion. Yes you can say well Sephiroth's a villain so he's obviously lying. But I was looking at her reaction not saying anything about him being real and yelling at the screen for her to say it's lies. Which never came.
So that was my reaction.

Notice how my issue wasn't understanding they had feelings here. That was not my obstacle at all and still I got the complete wrong conclusion and still was anti CT.

That's why I said at least Aerith's date hints Something that there's a similarity with Zack to help piece it together there. That just wasn't anywhere else even in his own explanation which is why people are confused to this very day of Zack's connection to Zack. I do think this is a huge obstacle too not enough mention of Zack's connection really made it hard to understand the story and Cloud's persona.

And I didn't get the scene where you talk with her by the bonfire. I didn't know I could. If I had at that point I guarantee I wouldn't have been so harsh on her . When I got to the Lifestream scene and realized she too didn't remember things because she was in a coma something also not so clear was when I understood her. (Before that this game basically tells you nothing about Tifa or Cloud even to be honest which is why so many people fill in the blanks and are way off)

And I will admit when I got her date on my second playthrough I thought her date was her trying to tell Cloud about Nibelheim and I was being too harsh on her all along. Knowing me If I had known she was confessing it would not have helped my understanding. I would have been just more even pissed off because my main problem was her not telling him things clearly.

So I think this is also a huge problem in OG's understanding of Tifa and CT people don't understand her motivations not just her feelings.

Edit: Fixed mistake. People think Clouds problem are Tifa's fault. Clarified my point.

 

[Eerie]

My resentment for Tifa came from thinking that she didn't seek him out to say anything about him being weird. I thought it was her fault that Sephiroth tricked him because she was too scared to say something.

See when I talk about bad translation… the real translation of the train station scene that was added in the international version absolutely clears that she TRIED but Cloud seemed to not understand and drift away. That important piece of info is hidden by a subpar translation where you get to think she’s just being clingy… I’ll try to find screenshots because it’s damning how the translation hurts the OG so bad.

The problem is not that people don't see that as much as we didn't see their thoughts for a huge part of the game. And there are many misconceptions made around those parts.

Yes I agree and I think Remake and Rebirth are doing wonders on that side.

But I was looking at her reaction not saying anything about him being real and yelling at the screen for her to say it's lies

I saw her hesitation and thought there was something fishy. But here we hit the limit of the PS1 and OG, imho. The p3 version is going to be interesting, especially since we see the black whispers attack her memories at the end of Rebirth.

And I didn't get the scene where you talk with her by the bonfire. I didn't know I could.

I didn’t know you couldn’t get it… I understand why people think Tifa’s date is about her telling Cloud about his identity troubles to me it never made sense since that talk around the bonfire is such a big hit in the guts.

(Before that this game basically tells you nothing about Tifa or Cloud even to be honest which is why so many people fill in the blanks and are way off)

Yes that’s why seeing that she brings out real Cloud and seeing them connecting in the trilogy is such a big thing, because we can finally say “yes they know each other, they can fall in love again with each other”. There’s so much sweetness in their interactions that it gives me a toothache.

Edit: I’ll post the whole bonfire convo tonight, since it seems many people missed it.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I didn’t know you couldn’t get it… I understand why people think Tifa’s date is about her telling Cloud about his identity troubles to me it never made sense since that talk around the bonfire is such a big hit in the guts.

In my first playthrough I wanted to talk to everyone in the bonfire but I definitely didn't. EDIT: Ohhh. I'm dumb lol. I never did get to sit next to Red.

I remember it all now. I walked to the candle and didn't sit next to anyone except Aerith because when Red wouldn't talk to me I couldn't figure out I had to sit next to the others I tried talking normally instead and they didn't interact. So I left thinking I was supposed to leave. So yeah I did miss it. This speed run video shows that yes you can leave.

In my defense I was 16 and this was my first JRPG experience lol.

At least that was my experience.

I sat next to him on my 2nd playthrough. So it wasn't until my 2nd playthrough which was my 100% run with a guide that I even realized I had missed dialogue.

In Rebirth it's also again possible to miss bonfire scenes and seriously they need to stop making things missable at all.

Yeah I definitely think that scene would have been really helpful.

Edit 3: so I looked it up and apparently yes Red won't talk to you if you don't talk to everyone but if you leave Cosmo Candle you can talk to Bugenhagen without talking to everyone so yes it is missable. Some people also said they didn't find the Cosmo Candle so I don't know if that means you can just completely skip it accidentally too.

 

[Eerie]

I remember it all now. I walked to the candle and didn't sit next to anyone except Aerith because when Red wouldn't talk to me I couldn't figure out I had to sit next to the others I tried talking normally instead and they didn't interact. So I left thinking I was supposed to leave. So yeah I did miss it. This speed run video shows that yes you can leave.

Well if that can make you feel better, know that I thought I was imagining things because I had an extremely rare scene of the GS date where Tifa takes Cloud to a date in the hotel stairs and half the sequence where everyone talks is missing because I made Cloud move during the sequence I had to search for the longest time because stupid me didn't think about saving screenshots (I thought maybe they had changed the scene for the PC version) and it's so rare it took me a while to find someone talking about it. But apparently it happens if you move Cloud during the sequence and it's totally something that I'd do out of boredom on my keyboard lmao.

BTW here is the rest of the convo (happens before the first screenshot I shared up in the thread):

 

[Thenir]

Why would she bring it again?

She questioned his identity without really saying why she was questioning it in the first place, the bonfire dialogue is the closest to a complete reveal (as far as I remember at least) yet it didn't get to the point. But...missable? That too?? Too many optional lines in that game, no wonders fans are still arguing over it 28 years later.
In any case, Rebirth took the date from a totally different angle and both Tifa's confusion about Cloud's problems and her feelings are a lot easier to read.

with Aerith's date, all I got with that was the ToA with freaking Cait's reading CA

I've had a theory for quite some time about it. Off topic though, maybe I'll save it for later.

 

[Skilganon]

Even if a particular moment is optional, it's still more canon than if it didn't exist at all.

 

[null]

Hell, two characters are optional and canon in their entirety.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Well if that can make you feel better, know that I thought I was imagining things because I had an extremely rare scene of the GS date where Tifa takes Cloud to a date in the hotel stairs and half the sequence where everyone talks is missing because I made Cloud move during the sequence I had to search for the longest time because stupid me didn't think about saving screenshots

That actually does make me feel a lot better lol. I did a lot of stuff like that in my first few playthroughs lol. Also thank you. I really think this is an important scene and making it missable at all was a mistake.

 

[Skilganon]

It's interesting how much missable stuff became important later. A lot of the Zack scenes were completely missable and later on were expanded in Crisis Core.

But now with the Remake, it's not as if they are making the missable events mandatory. They are instead changing all the scenes while trying to retain the original themes. We don't really know how Cloud wrongly remembering Zack is going to factor into the eventual reveal. We know the Life stream scene is going to change because the bridge collapse has already been spoiled.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It's interesting how much missable stuff became important later. A lot of the Zack scenes were completely missable and later on were expanded in Crisis Core.

Mass Effect had the same problem, kind of. The third game kind of started from the second game's DLC and as someone who did not have that DLC the first time around, I was just???? What is happening???? XD

 

[eleamaya]

I know the pictures on the right are from gacha game,
but...
it's like telling one pairing is different from the others.
Like (literally) day and night.

 

[Pasuwado]

My God... The petals of the Reunion flower in Zack and Aerith's wallpaper! Ever Crisis sometimes knows how to get people excited.

 

[Skilganon]

It's interesting that a lot of shippers tend to point out the supposed "rebound" nature of Cloud and Tifa's date, yet they never talk about how Aerith references Zack in a lot of her conversations with Cloud. In their date, Aerith straight up compares Cloud to Zack and talks about their similarities. You'd think there would be some number of people saying "Cloud deserves better."

 

[Eerie]

I don’t know where you’re seeing those rebound bad takes but if anything Cloud is Aerith’s rebound and that’s not even 100% sure, given we’re not sure about what’s going on with her feelings. CT can never be a rebound because both are each other’s first and only love.

 

[lyingbanana]

Oh there is plenty of people who spew those. I've seen it back at twitter and on youtube comment sections, both the pinnacle of civil discussions lol

 

[Eerie]

I mean do we have to argue the meaning of plain words nowaday? lol. There is no point where "rebound" can be a CT thing. Are people okay lol.

 

[Skilganon]

It think it's projection because the word rebound best applies to the CA relationship anyway, from the way Aerith brings up Zack all the time.

 

[Maidenofwar]

What is interesting to me is how the new Ever Crisis Odin event is revisiting the Land of the Dead concept, I wonder if this is also being incorporated into part 3. I love how they are expanding on the mythos stuff in ffvii lore and things

 

[Eerie]

Yeah the story event is full of details, even though it's so short for now. I've been trying to theorycraft a bit on this, but it sounds to me that they incorporated some ideas from Rebirth like the worlds in between life and death etc.

 

[Eerie]

Quick question: what is happening to some people over there?



This is the most insane take I've ever seen, and i've been on and off from fandom since a bit before AC. And most of them have also been locked in a "Tifa is a side character" for a few days too, which is stupid and so obviously wrong (without her there's no FFVII lol). Though that one may be connected to her getting nominated for best character at the Famitsu games awards (and she just won so congratulations!). Which pretty much destroys their "Tifa is only liked in the West" theory.
Edit: there was a Nomura comment with Tifa's win, that melts my heart: https://x.com/yokikotokiku3/status/1900864937330663794

 

[Hellenic]

Quick question: what is happening to some people over there?

View attachment 17488

This is the most insane take I've ever seen, and i've been on and off from fandom since a bit before AC. And most of them have also been locked in a "Tifa is a side character" for a few days too, which is stupid and so obviously wrong (without her there's no FFVII lol). Though that one may be connected to her getting nominated for best character at the Famitsu games awards (and she just won so congratulations!). Which pretty much destroys their "Tifa is only liked in the West" theory.
Edit: there was a Nomura comment with Tifa's win, that melts my heart: https://x.com/yokikotokiku3/status/1900864937330663794

Seems like another "let's make this thing about Aerith even though she has nothing to do with it" kinda thing. This all just comes off as a coping mechanism trying to make her seem like she's the centerstage in everything that happens in the games.

The whole Tifa side character thing is the same thing. Tifa just can't have anything and whenever she gets wins or call outs like these then it's back to "she's just an NPC, she doesn't matter, she's just a side character and not a heroine/main character". Shipping is one ridiculous thing and it sucks we have this kinda nonsense around the FF7 IP.

Nice shoutout from Nomura also. I suspect some people will jump on that and try to deny her being a heroine for the upteenth time regardless of how the devs see her.

 

[Ryeleigh]

The "Tifa is an unimportant side character" usually comes from (extreme) Clerith shippers, "neutrals", and "both girls" crowds. What these groups have in common is that they fail to understand that Cloud's story only started from his love for Tifa. They think that Cloud's story started because the village ostracized him and his homoerotic feelings for Sephiroth. And I guess they interpret the Lifestream scene as Cloud viewing Tifa as his idol.

They also interpret Cloud, Aerith and Sephiroth as the thematic triad of FF7. Ironically, they simultaneously think Tifa's character is too tied into Cloud's character (so they don't view her as a character in her own right, hence "unimportant side character") while failing to understand why her character is so tied into Cloud.

 

[Eerie]

"Tifa is a side character" is sadly enough an old old trick that doesn't really faze me, they've been using that for eons, because in their view, the hero always gets with the heroine (which is not true, especially NOT in SE's games), and taking away Tifa's role as a heroine means CA is canon because they're the only ones that fit that description. It's just it came back very strongly and they're still on it while I'm like "aren't you exhausted to argue about a false point, when she had been described as a heroine since the beginning?"

They also always treat her fans as "gooners" so seeing Nomura's words it makes me happy because it means they are seeing who is really a Tifa fan and who tries to smear her and her fans.

 

[Skilganon]

Part of this has to do with the fact that part 3 of the Remake isn't even out yet. I suspect a lot of opinions will change once that happens. It's hard not to think of a story as a static after you know how it ends.