LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Shadowfox]

But to play devil's advocate, I've encountered my share of doctors with a God Complex. "I'm the doctor, you're one of the unwashed masses, how DARE you question my conclusion?"

Sure, there's plenty of those everywhere. I've even seen some patients behaving like that: "This is MY body, I'm the one who's paying you, you're just a glorified mechanic, so when I say that I'm sick and I need surgery you'd better damned well operate!"

 

[Winter]

>not on topic
>not posting lesbians

GODDAMNIT I AM SO DISAPPOINTED IN YOU GUYS

 

[Ryushikaze]

>not on topic
>not posting lesbians

GODDAMNIT I AM SO DISAPPOINTED IN YOU GUYS

Fixed that. But yes, lack of lesbians or other off topicness is dissapoint.

 

[Vendel]

That latest FFG tirade about guilt is yet another example of not reexamining your beliefs about the compilation. (not that I expected her to do so)

I keep seeing them try and shoehorn in what they perceive to be the true story of FFVII into the information at hand. And they are surprised when it doesn't fit? But instead of saying "maybe what I am shoving in here is wrong" they blame the hole. And this latest translation is so blunt and outright it seems the only recourse is to ignore it completely.

I mean honestly.

Just because S-E refuses to give a direct answer to the love triangle doesn't mean that they haven't provided subtle hints as to which woman Cloud loves. So, how do I know that Cloud indeed loves Aerith? Please allow me to elaborate...

Does this look like the opening statement of a rational person? SE stating outright multiple times Cloud and Tifa are together is meaningless. But they are sure dropping Clerith hints all over the place. Right?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Maybe it read differently spaced across several hours instead of a few minutes, but I'm seeing four pages about a shipper's mental status and personal life.

Rest of lunch break will be spent taking a nap, I think.

 

[Dashell]

ahh hints


Remember when Cloud and Aerith shared their feelings of desire... oh wait...

Remember on a page called "The One that I love" Cloud and Aerith were shown confirming their feelings without words and the caption under Cloud and Tifa was meaningle... wait... wait wait...

OH! OH! Remember when Nojima said the first thing he thought of for FFVII:AC was that Cloud and Aerith would be toge-... god dammit.

Okay Aerith was left behind by a man which means.. that... no that was Tifa as well

AURGH... okay Aerith's role in the movie was someone's koibi-.... ARUGH >_<

Nojima talked about love marriage and family and Tifa was a hypothetical... BLOODY HELL

OKAY OKAY OKAY for real this time!.. I GOT IT FOR REALZ!

REMEMBER WHEN THERE WERE MONKEYS IN FFX-2 AND ONE WAS NAMED WINTER AND ONE WAS NAMED SUMMER AND THEY WENT TOGETHER?....
THERE'S the hint ... yes... okay right there, Cloud and Aerith hinting at... so yeah.. . see? See what I mean?




lol, well she's right about one thing, SE HAS told us who Cloud loves. I agree with that totally.

Rest of lunch break will be spent taking a nap, I think.

Good plan, I approve

 

[Ryushikaze]

That latest FFG tirade about guilt is yet another example of not reexamining your beliefs about the compilation. (not that I expected her to do so)

I keep seeing them try and shoehorn in what they perceive to be the true story of FFVII into the information at hand. And they are surprised when it doesn't fit? But instead of saying "maybe what I am shoving in here is wrong" they blame the hole. And this latest translation is so blunt and outright it seems the only recourse is to ignore it completely.

I mean honestly.

Does this look like the opening statement of a rational person? SE stating outright multiple times Cloud and Tifa are together is meaningless. But they are sure dropping Clerith hints all over the place. Right?

Seriously, I gotta known on what planet a man and woman confirming their romantic feelings for each other and then starting a family together, and having a future together isn't giving us a direct answer.
That's like bitching because Lucas never outright SAID who Luke and Leia's mom was, oh, and BTW, the end of Revenge of the Sith means nothing.

 

[Dashell]

Honest to God conversation I had with a Clerith on another board just now:

"If it can go either way why do you insist it goes the Clerith way?" (me)
"I never said that" (him)
"Okay what did you say then, maybe I misunderstood" (me)
"I said exactly what you said: it can go either way in the original." (him)


I think I'm being trolled I mean you just said you never said what I said you said.. and then you said you said exactly what I said which you just said you didn't say... or something ... in other words WAT?

 

[Celes Chere]

That latest FFG tirade about guilt

Spoiler: AHHH MY BRAIN

Does anyone find it silly that she would say she is tired of debate and then post a 'joke' essay against Cloti, along with this 'serious' essay going against what we have been recently discussing? It's like we're debating indirectly through our separate Forums, it's really ridiculous in my opinion. What's so bad about posting this essay directed to Clotis, at TNC? Obviously, if you claim to be bored of the LTD and are convinced with your ship, you wouldn't still be writing essays against Cloti fans! It makes no sense.

 

[Fighter]

If anything remotely similar was said about Cloud and Aerith to what was said about Cloud and Tifa recently, they'd be all over it. "SE hasn't said" would be forgotten. And they know it, and we know it.

And that's why this debate is long over even though they won't say it. It's been over since the day they stopped debating and that was back around the time of the first AC interviews and Reunion Files when they suddenly got "tired" of debates.

PS. I'm still waiting for anyone to explain how they flipped 180 on koibito like nothing happened.

 

[Vendel]

PS. I'm still waiting for anyone to explain how they flipped 180 on koibito like nothing happened.

Then accuse us of doing the same thing.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Spoiler: AHHH MY BRAIN

Does anyone find it silly that she would say she is tired of debate and then post a 'joke' essay against Cloti, along with this 'serious' essay going against what we have been recently discussing? It's like we're debating indirectly through our separate Forums, it's really ridiculous in my opinion. What's so bad about posting this essay directed to Clotis, at TNC? Obviously, if you claim to be bored of the LTD and are convinced with your ship, you wouldn't still be writing essays against Cloti fans! It makes no sense.

She won't go to TNC because she's AFRAID OF PEOPLE CALLING HER BULLSHIT BULLSHIT.

If anything remotely similar was said about Cloud and Aerith to what was said about Cloud and Tifa recently, they'd be all over it. "SE hasn't said" would be forgotten. And they know it, and we know it.

Hell, they declare Clerith canon based on two cracker packages and a herring. Their double standards are barely worth mentioning nowadays.

And that's why this debate is long over even though they won't say it. It's been over since the day they stopped debating and that was back around the time of the first AC interviews and Reunion Files when they suddenly got "tired" of debates.

Ah yes, the great spine famine.

PS. I'm still waiting for anyone to explain how they flipped 180 on koibito like nothing happened.

Because it helped their ship.
No, seriously, it's like lying for jesus. Any means are justified if the end result is 'right'

Then accuse us of doing the same thing.

Again, it's just like lying for Jesus.

 

[Eerie]

To celebrate the batshit craziness going on around, I decided to change my avatar. XD

Now, back to the game.

TBH, I still think that Clerith had more a leg to stand when it was just FFVII. With the compilation and the creators shouting at every corner that Cloud and Tifa confessed that night under the HW, I just can't wrap my mind anymore around Cloud loving Aerith in a romantic manner.

Even if he loved the two women romantically equally, then, wouldn't it be harder to confess to the one standing because the other one got killed? Isn't that kind of heartless? The more I think about it, the more I think that no matter how interested he is in her, he just doesn't have the time to fall in love.

I always think that no matter what, the first disc Cloud isn't the real Cloud - as in it's mixed with Zack and Jenova's influences - but his actions are still interesting to watch, because it does seem that he's somewhere there - he has to be, to remember Aerith anyway.

And no matter how nice you act towards Aerith, he still says to Tifa that it was her actions/thgouths/i cba remember the exact phrasing while not himself - if it was Aerith who owned Cloud's heart, back then, then would he truly say this to Tifa? I have a hard time believing so.

Blah, random post is random - that's what you get for only being able to read while everyone's posting and posting a long time after from fading memories about the arguments from a while back XD

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

I am disturbed that the wheel still turns - particularly as there appears to be no fuel left to burn.

People don't co-habitate as friends. Films, fantastical or not, are rooted in contemporary social expectations unless we're told otherwise. Cloud and Tifa live together with an extended/adopted family.

Until you can shatter the rules of fiction writing, you can't waffle on about how Cloud wasn't living in a romantic living situation with the girl he said in the prologue he wanted to be with forever. 2+2 makes 4. Take this out of FF and just have it in a contemporary setting - man says to girl he wants to be with her forever, then next we see them living together with kids in their home and the man on the brink of despair, doesn't take a fiction expert to see they are a romantic couple going through some troubles.

See don't need pages of waffles to destroy Clerith argument out there. That is irrefutable. Go ask any professor of English. That's how drama works - its all based on your common conceptions - and has to clarify anything that differs from that rule. AC didn't do that. What you see is what's happening. Girl and boy don't live together with kids as a general conception without their being romantic involvement.

 

[Isabella]

Long time no see, Charlie. And haven't you heard? Men and women live together and raise children platonically "all the time." What is never platonic is guilt over failure to protect someone.

 

[knit_lace]

Cloud appeared to be very adorable to go out everyday without an objection or complaint. At the same time, Tifa also thought, he is pushing himself too hard for me. Will he leave one day once the bar gets on the right track? Tifa shook her head trying to drive that doubt away. She told herself she shouldn&#8217;t hope for anything more than this.

Just want to put a question out there about this part in COT: why do you think Tifa was afraid Cloud would leave once the bar is on the right foot? If they confirmed their love, why did she think Cloud doesn't want to live at 7th heaven,and that she shouldn't hope for more? More than what?Does that mean their relationship is not yet where she wants them to be?

 

[Tennyo]

Sounds like a normal thing to be worried about. I'll give you that Tifa is a bit on the paranoid side in CoT. But just because one side of a couple is afraid that the other will leave doesn't mean the one they worry about doesn't love them.

Have you ever been in a substantial relationship, knit?

 

[Isabella]

Just my interpretation, but I took that as her understanding him very well. Cloud has trouble with letting people in or getting too close to them, so I think she worries for the same reason she worries about their relationship when Barret leaves Marlene with them. Their relationship is just in its beginning stages, and she probably fears it's too much too soon for Cloud and he might back away because he's not prepared for it all. Despite what some folks may tell you, love doesn't erase baggage and Cloud has plenty of it. Tifa understands this.

 

[knit_lace]

Sounds like a normal thing to be worried about. I'll give you that Tifa is a bit on the paranoid side in CoT. But just because one side of a couple is afraid that the other will leave doesn't mean the one they worry about doesn't love them.

Have you ever been in a substantial relationship, knit?

I don't mean to imply that Cloud doesn't love her because you can tell he does by his action. What I couldn't quite understand is reason(s) for Tifa's worry at this junction in time when Cloud hasn't done anything to give her doubts. I can see why she's worry when Marlene notices that Cloud is withdrawn and Tifa sees the receipt--but not before then.

Just my interpretation, but I took that as her understanding him very well. Cloud has trouble with letting people in or getting too close to them, so I think she worries for the same reason she worries about their relationship when Barret leaves Marlene with them. Their relationship is just in its beginning stages, and she probably fears it's too much too soon for Cloud and he might back away because he's not prepared for it all. Despite what some folks may tell you, love doesn't erase baggage and Cloud has plenty of it. Tifa understands this.

But from what I quoted it seems she feels Cloud only stay because he feels obligated to help her get the bar together and not because they are starting a relationship together. She also said I shouldn't hope for more than this. If they're in a relationship, what is more than that to hope for. To me, it shows she doesn't know where they stand, or the nature of their relationship.She wasn't worry that the relationship is going too fast but that he has no intention to stay and that they're not in this together.

I do understand that this is from Tifa's POV so it not a reflection of Cloud's. Maybe that is one of their problem: Cloud thought that his intention is clear when he said he wants to start a new life with her, but Tifa is not sure.
Why she's not sure is what confuses me.

 

[Isabella]

I really think you're reading too far into that line. I go back to my earlier post: they're just at the beginning stage of their relationship, and she fears too much, too soon will make someone with Cloud's disposition panic. "At the same time, Tifa also thought, he is pushing himself too hard for me." She wants this relationship to go the distance. She does want more -- the whole family thing -- but knows she has to be careful with someone like him.

 

[Fighter]

Seems like foreshadowing for what actually does happen. While they are busy there is no time to think, but once there is stability and they have time to reflect it'll all come haunting them, and it does.

So Tifa understands that while Cloud is pushing himself and keeping busy things are what they are but can they handle a normal life?

 

[Vendel]

Long time no see, Charlie. And haven't you heard? Men and women live together and raise children platonically "all the time."

One of the funniest recent quotes I have seen was someone calling Q "horribly naive" for believing C/T living together and raising children was an indicator of a relationship between the two.


As for the whole "why is Tifa worried in CoT" thingy? Belle explained it very well. But let me elaborate.

C/T from the looks of it had no real romance period. No dating. No courtship. From the time they confessed to them being the ones raising Marlene was not a long period of time. Combine that with Cloud running all over creation to get supplies for Tifa?

That would be a strain on anyone. Now add in Clouds issues? Maybe Tifa knows that once things calm down it will give Cloud time to think. And wangst.


Edit: dang it Fighter...you just stole my thunder on my last point.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

With regards to CoT, I thought it was perfectly in character for a woman as shy and reserved as Tifa. She as as much baggage to carry as Cloud in many ways, though different from his of course.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

With regards to CoT, I thought it was perfectly in character for a woman as shy and reserved as Tifa. She as as much baggage to carry as Cloud in many ways, though different from his of course.

Pretty much every FF7 character is like that, it's Woobie central. Aerith is the last Cetra and is hunted from childhood by Shinra, Barret had his village destroyed and was blamed for it, Red XIII is also the last of his kind and had daddy issues. Even Yuffie grew up watching Wutai turn from an honorable nation of ninja into a tourist attraction.

Seriously, are there any of the central FF7 cast who *don't* have a reason to angst?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Pretty much every FF7 character is like that, it's Woobie central. Aerith is the last Cetra and is hunted from childhood by Shinra, Barret had his village destroyed and was blamed for it, Red XIII is also the last of his kind and had daddy issues. Even Yuffie grew up watching Wutai turn from an honorable nation of ninja into a tourist attraction.

Seriously, are there any of the central FF7 cast who *don't* have a reason to angst?

Not really. Cid is an abrasive ass who's dream was crushed, and then when it finally gets fulfilled has to live with knowing he has been treating Shera like shit for being right. Even Cait Sith has reason for baggage, either he is Reeve and has his issues, or if he has an identity of his own he has to live knowing he's just a disposable robot. Life on The Planet seems to gear itself towards misery don't it?

Also, good to see ya again Drake.