LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Winter]

I still don't get why we can't have more solid evidence for C/T outside of Ultimanias. I mean, I'm not denying that they're canon, but why didn't Cloud and Tifa act affectionate at all in AC?

I won't lie, if I saw AC without touching an Ultimania or novella, I wouldn't think for a second that they were romantically. They just don't act like it at all.

My question here is why? If SE has decided that they're the canon choice, why can't they show it?

replying to older posts because I am slow:

I think Cloud and Tifa had mad crushes on each other as kids/teens. But infatuation isn't love. Hell, you can crush on the guy in the Starbucks drive-thru and not even know his name. Love requires familiarity, spending time with each other and understanding each other's strengths and weaknesses. That's why I don't think they truly loved each other until later. But it's also why I have real trouble seeing LOVE between Cloud and Aerith. Attraction, chemistry, sure. But two weeks' time simply isn't long enough for a real love to develop, IMO.

You know, I agree, and that's actually a part of why I love Cloud/Aerith; it's not that it was some sweeping, epic love story. It was more that he was head over heels infatuated with her. She was that one person you meet and you'll never be able to stop wondering what would have happened.

The C/A stuff, or in general? Because I think the C/A stuff is supposed to be 'fantastic' but not necessarily romantic, much like a lot of his D art. There's art just like his C/A stuff with D and a woman (and D and a man) but there's not supposed to be any romance in it. Well, not from D, anyways. Everyone has romance towards D. Even people who want him dead.

Yeah, a lot of it wasn't, but there's one picture in particular where he's holding her like he did when she died; in that picture she's actually sleeping in his arms. Which has very romantic implications, I think.

also Aerith and Sephiroth as siblings was the coolest concept ever. Even the idea of them being lovers was cool. How sad that years later all of SE stopped giving a fuck about Gast's involvement in the story even though he used to be so important.

Also, have we figured out who Nond is?

 

[Zee]

I won't lie, if I saw AC without touching an Ultimania or novella, I wouldn't think for a second that they were romantically. They just don't act like it at all.

Word. A lot of my friends who played FF7 and then skipped right to AC didn't find it to be romantic in the slightest, and I can't blame them. C/T's story only makes sense as a whole, imo -- take CoT by itself, for example, and it's not a very romantic story. CoT in the context of what happens before and after, however, makes much more sense.

Also, re: Bella's (and now, LV's) post: I was thinking about it a bit after reading your post and imo, there is a love between Cloud and Aeris, it's just that it never had time to fully develop into something with a definitive label.

 

[Dashell]

I won't lie, if I saw AC without touching an Ultimania or novella, I wouldn't think for a second that they were romantically. They just don't act like it at all.

My question here is why? If SE has decided that they're the canon choice, why can't they show it?

Because AC wasn't a love story, and they were having problems. When exactly did you expect them to kiss? They really didn't have time.

 

[Zee]

Well, even in a relationship when a couple has issues there's small physical intimacies that don't just go away. I mean, I know there's lots of jokes about it, but you can seriously tell Fang is banging Vanille because of the intimate gestures they share only with each other.

Then there's DoC when they are perfectly happy and drama free, but DoC is a giant piece of illogical shit all around, so it doesn't count.

 

[Dashell]

Well, even in a relationship when a couple has issues there's small physical intimacies that don't just go away.

Again when did you want these to take place exactly?

 

[Isabella]

Were they ever actually on screen together in DoC? I don't even know. Though I thought the phone call at the end was between the two of them, and there was a streak of playfulness there.

At the end of FF7 they were up in each other's space, all through the final FMV. Holding hands, standing next to each other, Tifa patting the back of Cloud's thigh, etc.

 

[Zee]

@ Quex: At any time. It's not a hard thing to add in (especially now that we have ACC and all, there really is no excuse) especially if a big part of the story is between the relationships of those characters. It's not uncommon for a couple to take a minute even during a BIG IMPORTANT SCENE just to look longingly into each other's eyes or somesuch (see also Dagger/Zidane, Fang/Vanille).

 

[Dashell]

They held hands?

It's not uncommon for a couple to take a minute even during a BIG IMPORTANT SCENE just to look longingly into each other's eyes or somesuch (see also Dagger/Zidane, Fang/Vanille).

Well some say the smile Tifa gives Cloud is pretty sexy so
Also they did seem to stare at each other for a second before Tifa through Cloud up to Bahamut Sin

 

[Isabella]

Well OK, that one's a stretch since he was holding on to her. But it's true they never leave each other's side.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I still don't get why we can't have more solid evidence for C/T outside of Ultimanias.

Who says there is no solid evidence outside the Ultimanias?

I won't lie, if I saw AC without touching an Ultimania or novella

Advent Children is a sequel to the game. A game which makes it clear Cloud has feelings for said lady. Advent Children was conceived and made as something special for the fans (staff words).It assumes you know that shit.

It was more that he was head over heels infatuated with her

.....?
Substantiate.

in that picture she's actually sleeping in his arms.

I'm actually not aware of this one. The only one I know with Aeris clearly in a horizontal position is the one from her death.

PS: they hold hands as they resurface in Lifestream thingy. Where did I read that. LOL, Maiden also says same shit, but that shit ain't canon or some such.

 

[Celes Chere]

but why didn't Cloud and Tifa act affectionate at all in AC?

LOL because it was kind of a bad time in their life. Cloud had left, and was infected... with Geostigma! He also had given up on himself... not exactly the best time to be all huggy-kissy. They did have the scene with Cloud and Tifa playing to the song "Water" or "Anxious Heart" though I suppose one could say that's not exactly romantic. I think that the way Tifa helps Cloud through everything proves their love well enough.

 

[Zee]

@Bella: lol, yeah, I figured you were talking about that. But grabbing onto someone to stop them from falling =\= romantic handholding, nor does Tifa steadying Cloud's leg as he climbs up a steep, unstable ledge = a reassuring squeeze from a lover.

What we're trying to say is why SE doesn't portray Cloud and Tifa as they do with most canon couples in FF?

I think the real answer is just because they are a bunch of pussies. Lord knows if I see Cloud hugging Tifa I'll fucking set Nomura on fire.

 

[Dashell]

What we're trying to say is why SE doesn't portray Cloud and Tifa as they do with most canon couples in FF.

Because you're not looking hard enough

 

[Celes Chere]

You know, Locke and Celes were never that intimate. And yet, we know that they are canon.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

What we're trying to say is why SE doesn't portray Cloud and Tifa as they do with most canon couples in FF?

I don't understand why AC doesn't show them as a couple. The game ends with them confessing/confirming feelings for each other, ones we're told they've had all along.
Let's skip CoT and go directly to AC. You see the same guy and girl living together raising kids. Do you assume they are together raising kids as platonic roommates? After the game left you with them CONFIRMING ROMANTIC FEELINGS for each other?
Foh seriaz?

Common sense, people. The basic premise is that Cloud's issues draw him away from his family. At a pivotal moment in the movie, Tifa lectures him as any partner would. She's worried about him and the family. You get the poignant moments between Tifa and Marlene missing Cloud, which wouldn't be half as effective if they were not together romantically and did not operate as a family unit. You have the parents fighting and the kids holding hands, waiting for them in the dark. You have the very end, where Cloud looks at tifa and smiles, letting her know he's back. He smiles, whcih is damn important we're told.
Yes, it's subtle. There is no moment when Cloud running into her arms or vice versa would be appropriate or fit with the mood. Why demand a one-size-fit-all 'couple indicator' that if applied to C/A ALSO DOESN'T SHOW UP or many other couples for that matter?

 

[Zee]

Because you're not looking hard enough

Right, because they had a big sweeping romantic hug and roll credits...

Or when they had a really heated makeout session underwater...

Or when Cloud lifted up Tifa's skirt and knew exactly where her tattoo was...

wait a second

 

[Dashell]

Or when Cloud lifted up Tifa's skirt and knew exactly where her tattoo was...

Yeah you missed that?

and it's not like the more hardcore Cleriths wouldn't throw a kiss or a hug out the window anyway

 

[Ryushikaze]

Cloud was devastated and wanted to be noticed by Tifa.

Tifa thought he was cute.

They made a promise under the stars, and that promise is forever etched in Cloud's mind.

They are separated and meet again later, and all the people around them think they have the hots for each other. Barret, Johnny, nurses, etc.

Cloud becomes a vegetable after which Tifa abandons her quest for vengeance and saving the planet to spend her days with Cloud, refusing to leave him behind -- a very un-SOLDIER like Cloud who can't even wipe his own ass.

Then Lifestream sequence goes into great detail about Cloud's failure complex and his great crush for Tifa. He watches her from his window and talks of a "sealed up secret wish" and "tender memories no one can ever know". He follows Tifa to the mountains when all other admirers back off, because his feelings are ~true~ and he wants to keep Tifa safe.

Cloud's subconscious tells Tifa that present adult Cloud would be VERY HAPPY to know that she is interested in him.

Then they resurface and after everyone leaves to find that which they are fighting for, Cee & Tee remain together. Not only that, they spend the night together and Tifa's embarrased the next morning after their freinds tease them. ALL VERSIONS, thank you very much.

After that they're joined at the hip. Cloud suggests moving in together, complete with sappy diaogue like "I failed before but no longer because TIFA will be there forevahz" and copious amounts of blushing.

Then you get Ultimania quotes that tell us Cloud and Tifa confirm feelings for each other about 10 fucking times in case people don't get it. One of them's even on a page that lists the lovebirds of the entire series. Dayum, Cee & Tee's feelings for each other are pretty damn important eh?
Tifa is always singled out. It's always TIFA and the kids, TIFA and his friends, Tifa and his family, blah blah blah.

WHERE IS THE CLERIS EQUIVALENT? This is just ridiculous.

That's not even half of 'em.

I'll say it again, largely becomes I'm lazy, but none of the arguments can refute that first law of narrative scriptwriting - unless its stated to the contrary, the obvious is the answer.

Cloud lives with Tifa with kids after asking her to be with him. As a common rule male/female don't have a non romantic long term living arrangement looking after kids after making such a vocal commitment. The vocal commitment in the prologue informs the audience of the tone of the main story. That's basic 101 storytelling.

It's common sense. You you have a scene when boy and girl meet in the bar. They smile and the guy buys the girl a drink. They are brother and sister - but the audience won't except they are brother and sister until the story tells them because the natural common assumption is a guy and girl meeting in a bar will be romantic, not sibling. When they're told, the audience can accept it - not because it was too wacky to naturally assume, but because storytelling works on social empathy - playing on the audiences cultural expectations - be it how they understand storytelling as a convention or through their personal experiences as a human being of the 21st century.

Western audiences are particularly bad. If it's not explicitly said, even if its clear that person got to story point A to storypoint C through an unstated point B, they won't have it.

And in this case we have people who don't want to get the truth using that westernised logic to hold on to their dreams when fiction doesn't always demand it.

Made even more funny when the point is underlined in books and given continuity throughout a franchise that it still won't be accepted without it being stated.

Essentially they want it confirmed that a boy and girl meeting in a bar are not siblings from the start, rather than the other way round. Which is. Absurd.

And yes, I'll keep hammering this point because until you can fight the structure of storytelling one shouldn't be quibbling over the nuances of Japanese translations.

All of this is very very true, but we are dealing with people who desperately want to ignore that very structure of storytelling, who want to to ignore the simple in favor of the tortured and nonsensical.

I still don't get why we can't have more solid evidence for C/T outside of Ultimanias. I mean, I'm not denying that they're canon, but why didn't Cloud and Tifa act affectionate at all in AC?

FATAL.
WASTING.
DISEASE.

MASSIVE.
GUILT.
COMPLEX.

I won't lie, if I saw AC without touching an Ultimania or novella, I wouldn't think for a second that they were romantically. They just don't act like it at all.

I think they act like a couple in a time of both external and internal crisis would act. And once the crisis is over, they do act a little bit more 'loveydovey'

My question here is why? If SE has decided that they're the canon choice, why can't they show it?

It would be extremely narratively awkward to fit intimacy into AC/C except at the absolute end, after the crisis has passed. And they did it instead, at the end of FF7 and the start of CoT, before the dipping down to the lowest point began.

replying to older posts because I am slow:


You know, I agree, and that's actually a part of why I love Cloud/Aerith; it's not that it was some sweeping, epic love story. It was more that he was head over heels infatuated with her. She was that one person you meet and you'll never be able to stop wondering what would have happened.

But that's not him being head over heels infatuated. That's YOU being infatuated and projecting that. Which was entirely what was supposed to happen, to make you feel her death all the more. But again, all this falls under the narrative red herring and the employment of Cloud as player cypher and the illusion of control and all the narrative trickery the first disc and a half pulls.

Yeah, a lot of it wasn't, but there's one picture in particular where he's holding her like he did when she died; in that picture she's actually sleeping in his arms. Which has very romantic implications, I think.

If that's the picture I think, he's not actually holding her as she sleeps, and his hand is in sort of a 'dagger' shape. I thought it might be Amano's rendition of him nearly killing her, but who the heck knows.

also Aerith and Sephiroth as siblings was the coolest concept ever. Even the idea of them being lovers was cool. How sad that years later all of SE stopped giving a fuck about Gast's involvement in the story even though he used to be so important.

I'm not so sure they have. I'm hoping the pregnant plot points of Genesis and such are brought to light in the eventual sequel.

Also, have we figured out who Nond is?

Not yet.

Word. A lot of my friends who played FF7 and then skipped right to AC didn't find it to be romantic in the slightest, and I can't blame them. C/T's story only makes sense as a whole, imo -- take CoT by itself, for example, and it's not a very romantic story. CoT in the context of what happens before and after, however, makes much more sense.

Yeah, AC/C isn't supposed to be taken on its own. It's why the released OTWTAS beforehand- at least in Japan- as a teaser for it.

Also, re: Bella's (and now, LV's) post: I was thinking about it a bit after reading your post and imo, there is a love between Cloud and Aeris, it's just that it never had time to fully develop into something with a definitive label.

That's the sort of thing I'm referring to when I talk about 'attraction but not love' in these debates.

 

[Isabella]

nor does Tifa steadying Cloud's leg as he climbs up a steep, unstable ledge = a reassuring squeeze from a lover.

This one I disagree with. Cloud already had 4 paws up on the ledge before she reached around and patted him with a little head nod. As best I can see from the graphics, it was an affectionate move.

 

[Zee]

Yeah you missed that?

and it's not like the more hardcore Cleriths wouldn't throw a kiss or a hug out the window anyway

And are any one of them here? How is that relevant to what we're talking about?

@Bella: It's been a while since I played and I only remember it as being a steadying move, so I'll let that one go.

 

[Winter]

Why do I have to look hard to see it?

They didn't make me squint to see Tidus/Yuna or Squall/Rinoa.

I think that the way Tifa helps Cloud through everything proves their love well enough.

While this is true, and it's a part of what makes the pairing good, couldn't that be seen as platonic too?

Who says there is no solid evidence outside the Ultimanias?

I just said, most of the people who saw AC/played FFVII did not jump to the conclusion that Cloud and Tifa were an item. Obviously if there is evidence, it's not clear enough.

Advent Children is a sequel to the game. A game which makes it clear Cloud has feelings for said lady. Advent Children was conceived and made as something special for the fans (staff words).It assumes you know that shit.

Obviously FFVII itself was not definitively Cloti. That fact has actually been stated before in this very thread. So why would people already know that going into AC?

I'm actually not aware of this one. The only one I know with Aeris clearly in a horizontal position is the one from her death.

Spoiler: this is the picture in question

 

[Ryushikaze]

Right, because they had a big sweeping romantic hug and roll credits...

Or when they had a really heated makeout session underwater...

Or when Cloud lifted up Tifa's skirt and knew exactly where her tattoo was...

wait a second

Or when the most shown physical intimacy they had was a hug, or when the only shown physical intimacy was less than that, or a hug, or them reuniting with a hug.
That's Rosa and Cecil, Ingus and Sarah, Rinoa and Squall, and Zidane and Garnet.
Plus Vaan and Penelo.
We could also speak of the lack of explicit intimacy on other canon FF7 pairings alone. Hell, we saw jack intimacy between two couples we've known to have kids in FF7.

Half of all 'physical intimacies' are nothing more than hugs, and often less.
If you take all the FF couples, Cloud's up there with Zidane and Tidus in actually doing something risque to express his feelings- in this case, stealing panties, asking Tifa to be by his side, whatever they did without words, which is the closest to the subject of sex any party member pairing has gotten in an FF, including the pairings with biological children.
People are expecting things in FF7 that, really, they have no reason to expect, given the patterns of how these things are displayed in FFs.

So, I posit that the 'big romantic scene' isn't the standard for FF revelations at all. It's the exception to the rule.

That particular picture does not look to me how Amano draws romantic pictures. There's no eye contact involved, and that's usually his standard for showing interest. I'm not entirely sure what it's depicting, if anything. It might just be another one of his 'this would look awesome' pics, like Cloud with Red between his legs. Again, though, I would still remind everyone that his pictures, even from when he's in the whole design process, aren't 'canon', and these are all from very early on in development, before most of FF7 as we know it existed.

 

[Winter]

To be fair, it's really hard to show intimacy outside of 8 bit. Cecil slept in Rosa's room though, which is pretty obvious in and of itself.

And Rinoa and Squall kissed, not just hugged. Also, within FFXII canon as far as I know Vaan and Penelo were not explicitly canon. RW made them canon.

which is the closest to the subject of sex any party member pairing has gotten in an FF

I still don't believe for a second they had sex under the Highwind. And as far as I recall, FFIV implied that Rosa and Cecil were doing the dirty deed at the beginning of the game.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Also, he has also drawn Yuna and Seymour in similar positions, as well as Sephiroth/Aeris even though Aeris has a sword to her throat. LOL
Their position however is seemingly far more intimate and probably evokes a greater degree of seduction (S/A, I mean). Pfft..

 

[Ryushikaze]

To be fair, it's really hard to show intimacy outside of 8 bit. Cecil slept in Rosa's room though, which is pretty obvious in and of itself.

Cecil did not sleep in Rosa's room. Rosa had unfettered access to his room, but she isn't depicted as sleeping there til TAY, and then so is Ceodore...

And Rinoa and Squall kissed, not just hugged.

Nope. It is implied they kiss, but we don't actually ever see a kiss, which is the point I am getting at.

Also, within FFXII canon as far as I know Vaan and Penelo were not explicitly canon. RW made them canon.

And yet the 'PDA' between them is still at the hugging level.

I still don't believe for a second they had sex under the Highwind. And as far as I recall, FFIV implied that Rosa and Cecil were doing the dirty deed at the beginning of the game.

It does so far less explicitly than FFVII deals with the Highwind scene. However, Cecil and Cloud are the only two heroes to be hinted at getting 'lucky' during the course of their games.