LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Strangelove]

I wanted some Cloti opinions on the matter

Do you want some Cloti lies with that?

-"They attract to each other by mutual feelings similar to friendship, because they're both juvenile, if you call it love..."

No offence (you know something offensive is coming up), but WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?

And the use of the word 'setting' in that Nojima quote argh.

According to a bastion of accurate information (Wikipedia), people who are used to English might use ガールフレンド to be an actual girlfriend. But a lot of time people use it for just friends.

'Koi' is romantic boyfriend/girlfriend love, and I thought by 'platonic' it meant that it was ~pure~ and not sullied by dirty non-spirit sex.

 

[ShuShu]

ShuShu I am having a hard time following you. And I mean that honestly. :/

O.o Why is that? I thought I was making myself pretty clear. Exposing contridictions by SE on Zack and Aerith's relationship and the actual depth of that, and how serious it was according to official information.

Lmao.

No offence (you know something offensive is coming up), but WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?

Maybe it means because of their youth, or since they are juvenile they aren't capable of knowing what an actual romantic love is or something like that? I've heard it said before. But never really agreed with that kind of arguement.

'Koi' is romantic boyfriend/girlfriend love, and I thought by 'platonic' it meant that it was ~pure~ and not sullied by dirty non-spirit sex.

I've never really heard that being used before... I'll get the actual japanese quote and ask my Grandfather about Platonic being used to describe an intimate and serious relationship to better understand.

Lmao. So Zack had no sexual interest in Aerith? That doesnt really sound like him. xD

 

[Vendel]

Lmao. So Zack had no sexual interest in Aerith? That doesnt really sound like him. xD

No. It just means he never had the chance to give her the ole buster sword.

Hence the end of ACC is symbolic of just that.

 

[ShuShu]

No. It just means he never had the chance to give her the ole buster sword.

Hence the end of ACC is symbolic of just that.

Lmao. Ah. So thinking is was some romantic symbolism or some form of Zacks will to reach Aerith, that was abit off.

It was a sexual thing. I see now. xD

 

[Raquelborn]

Platonic adj 1 belonging or relating to the Greek philosopher Plato. 2 (usually platonic) a said of human love: not involving sexual relations; b restricted to theorizing; not involving action

If you take the English definition literally (which is the whole point of a definition, right?) even a girlfriend and boyfriend who haven't had sex yet could be described as being in a platonic relationship, just as much as two people who aren't quite together yet but love each other from afar blah blah blah... or just friends who like each other alot.

Considering the development of Zack and Aerith's relationship throughout the game and the rest of those quotes, it's probably safe to say it just means they aren't sexual.

Maybe the meaning is more limited in Japanese though. *shrug*

 

[Strangelove]

プラトニック4 【Platonic】

(形&#21205
〔補説〕 プラトンのようなの意
純粋に精神的なさま。特に、恋愛において、肉欲を伴わず純粋に相手を思うさま。
In a purely spiritual manner. In particular, in reference to romantic love, to purely feel/love the other person without carnal desires.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Exposing contridictions by SE on Zack and Aerith's relationship and the actual depth of that, and how serious it was according to official information.

I think the problem Tenny meant was that you aren't connecting the dots and then calling it a contradiction. The quotes don't contradict themselves, give or take a few do sound a bit engrishy, even they don't say anything that goes against the idea that Zack and Aerith are in love.

 

[ShuShu]

I think the problem Tenny meant was that you aren't connecting the dots and then calling it a contradiction. The quotes don't contradict themselves, give or take a few do sound a bit engrishy, even they don't say anything that goes against the idea that Zack and Aerith are in love.

L.M.A.O.

Stop sniffing the Zerith sugarsticks. Bad for brain cells.

Im not arguing AGAINST ZERITH OMG. I'm raising a fucking question. Which dot did I not connect? When I plainly pointed out contridictions or when I clearly stated I was all for Zerith romance, just wanted to discuss the CC Ultimania quotes.

Thanks for the Platonic low down but I had already gone and asked my imminent fountain of wisdom and he said pretty much what Hito did, just longer and stuff. Lol.

 

[Dashell]

Yeah, Shushu, I know, I hate it when you ask a question and people act like you're so fucking stupid for even possibly thinking differently.



But really Celes, none of those quotes say anything against what I was trying to say. Please listen to me, okay?

I AM NOT SAYING ZACK AND AERITH DID NOT LOVE ONE ANOTHER. I AM NOT SAYING THEY WERE NOT CLOSE. I AM NOT SAYING ZACK DID NOT LOVE AERITH. I AM NOT SAYING THEY WEREN'T A COUPLE! I AM NOT SAYING THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF THEM LOVING EACH OTHER!


I AM SAYING THAT AT LEAST SOME OF THE EVIDENCE POINTS TO THEM NOT BEING IN A SUPER DUPER SERIOUS LETS GET MARRIED RELATIONSHIP

This might be because they were young and didn't understand it at the time, but it's the message I got from the quotes that I provided. Yes I do know they were inseparable, but that doesn't mean they fully know what love is or that their love is fully developed. Ever seen Hey Arnold? Arnold and Helga love each other, but they're just kids so their love hasn't fully developed yet...

When Aerith met Cloud, she was older and wiser, and she knew more of what love was. That's why I feel what she feels for Cloud is stronger than what she felt for Zack. That's why she calls him her beloved in CoLW and continues to pursue Cloud even after she realizes that he isn't Zack 2.0. That's why she treats Zack the way she does in Maiden... and you can say "non canon" all you want... why the hell would Square allow something like that to be published with false information or information claiming the exact opposite of what they wanted us to think?


I remember someone saying that if what the pinkers saying is true and the love triangle is really ambiguous ,then they should have recalled the 20th Anniversary Scenario Ultimania with the One That I Love in it... don't you think the same would have been done for Maiden? It was made under close supervision, don't you think Nomura or Nojima would have said, "Well no can you change this? Aerith doesn't love Cloud more than Zack..."

I mean really now...

 

[ShuShu]

I AM NOT SAYING ZACK AND AERITH DID NOT LOVE ONE ANOTHER. I AM NOT SAYING THEY WERE NOT CLOSE. I AM NOT SAYING ZACK DID NOT LOVE AERITH. I AM NOT SAYING THEY WEREN'T A COUPLE! I AM NOT SAYING THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF THEM LOVING EACH OTHER!

Yea this.

And yes... It is quite annoying to be misunderstood and jumped under false pretenses and because people suck at the whole reading carefully thing. Quite.

ALSO Spoken like a true champ Quex. Epic win and slaughter if I do say so myself. I agree with everything you have to say but beware we'll be accused of following the pink now. As if I even fucking go there. Lol. And as if Zerith as anything to do with a C/A forum. Lmao. When are people gonna stop blaming the Cleris side for every little thing in the LTD? You wonder why theirs no DEBATE in this thread? No mature debate to be had, good fellows.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I never questioned that Zack and Aerith used to be an item. But I don't see how them being dead together means they're destined to be together forever. ColW, Maiden (canon or not, I'm mentioning it), and Aerith's own words in FF7 all indicate either she's over Zack, or they were never that serious to begin with. I think it's the former - I think Aerith is kinda like "Oh yeah, we were together for a while years ago. We were kids though, I liked him but it was never anything serious."

The debate then is if she cared for Zack more than Cloud or not.

And no, I have no played CC, though I've read about it and seen cutscenes, so yes I admit my opinion is not as informed as it ought to be. ><

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I remember someone saying that if what the pinkers saying is true and the love triangle is really ambiguous ,then they should have recalled the 20th Anniversary Scenario Ultimania with the One That I Love in it... don't you think the same would have been done for Maiden? It was made under close supervision, don't you think Nomura or Nojima would have said, "Well no can you change this? Aerith doesn't love Cloud more than Zack..."

I mean really now...

Was it really made under 'close supervision'? I thought it was just supposed to be a fan's perspective. I thought there was a quote that said something similar to that. *shrug*

 

[Tennyo]

ShuShu, if you are going to call us immature I think you should look at your own posts first.

 

[ShuShu]

I dont think it was but I personally dont know. While Maiden does have some.... Technical issues and mistakes, so do the Ultimania's occasionally. Which are from SE, itself.

It hasnt really been EMBRACE via Ultimania or what not but it really hasnt been REJECTED either so... Maiden does reek of Fanfiction but who knows. Maybe SE likes bad fanfiction.

Just did Ten. Ya got nothing. I wasnt refering to everyone though. And I'd appreciate you taking up matters on the appropriate place my dear.

Edit- Lol tired.

 

[Strangelove]

Was it really made under 'close supervision'? I thought it was just supposed to be a fan's perspective. I thought there was a quote that said something similar to that. *shrug*

I think it was something a fan said, and there's been no quote/reference given to back it up. Square do supervise the Ultimanias (at least that's what they're credited with in the back of them, IIRC, and obviously the information/images/art/etc. have to come from somewhere). But I don't think it says anything about Nojima/Nomura supervising the short story, and Benny Matsuyama's comment on the editor's site didn't mention anything about it. But I've not read every word in the book or anything.

 

[Dashell]

I never questioned that Zack and Aerith used to be an item. But I don't see how them being dead together means they're destined to be together forever. ColW, Maiden (canon or not, I'm mentioning it), and Aerith's own words in FF7 all indicate either she's over Zack, or they were never that serious to begin with. I think it's the former - I think Aerith is kinda like "Oh yeah, we were together for a while years ago. We were kids though, I liked him but it was never anything serious."

No see, we only listen to Aerith when we agree with her, like when she says that talking with Cloud in the park wasn't a date

also about MotP:
It was published in the FFVII Ultimania Omega which is an official guidebook authorized by Square Enix, was compiled and edited under the supervision of Square Enix, is referred to on SE&#8217;s official website as part of the Compilation of FFVII, and contains official interviews, artwork, and information copyrighted by Square Enix, its validity cannot be questioned, and no part of it should be excluded.

Why an I bolding the interviews part? Because many people say the Dengeki profiles are official for the exact same reason. That issue of Dengeki has official interviews and then information about the characters. Maiden is the exact same way.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Platonic as in not sexual, not that they weren't in love.

'Sudden crush' was talking about how they didn't have time to show us Zack and Aerith falling in love, so they decided it would happen very quickly.

Tiff you forgot my favourite one!

Thank you, this need to keep being mentioned. Platonic does not mean 'no romantic love', it means 'no hanky panky'. Their love was a Chaste but passionate one.

If you take the English definition literally (which is the whole point of a definition, right?) even a girlfriend and boyfriend who haven't had sex yet could be described as being in a platonic relationship, just as much as two people who aren't quite together yet but love each other from afar blah blah blah... or just friends who like each other alot.

Considering the development of Zack and Aerith's relationship throughout the game and the rest of those quotes, it's probably safe to say it just means they aren't sexual.

Maybe the meaning is more limited in Japanese though. *shrug*

Nope. Because they used the english platonic. Paired it with 'romantic love.'

Yeah, Shushu, I know, I hate it when you ask a question and people act like you're so fucking stupid for even possibly thinking differently.

Quex, there's the fact that You've asked all this before in not so many words.

But really Celes, none of those quotes say anything against what I was trying to say. Please listen to me, okay?

I AM NOT SAYING ZACK AND AERITH DID NOT LOVE ONE ANOTHER. I AM NOT SAYING THEY WERE NOT CLOSE. I AM NOT SAYING ZACK DID NOT LOVE AERITH. I AM NOT SAYING THEY WEREN'T A COUPLE! I AM NOT SAYING THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF THEM LOVING EACH OTHER!


I AM SAYING THAT AT LEAST SOME OF THE EVIDENCE POINTS TO THEM NOT BEING IN A SUPER DUPER SERIOUS LETS GET MARRIED RELATIONSHIP

No it does not. The end of Goddamn CC shows just how goddamn serious about Aerith Zack was.

This might be because they were young and didn't understand it at the time, but it's the message I got from the quotes that I provided. Yes I do know they were inseparable, but that doesn't mean they fully know what love is or that their love is fully developed. Ever seen Hey Arnold? Arnold and Helga love each other, but they're just kids so their love hasn't fully developed yet...

When Aerith met Cloud, she was older and wiser, and she knew more of what love was. That's why I feel what she feels for Cloud is stronger than what she felt for Zack. That's why she calls him her beloved in CoLW and continues to pursue Cloud even after she realizes that he isn't Zack 2.0. That's why she treats Zack the way she does in Maiden... and you can say "non canon" all you want... why the hell would Square allow something like that to be published with false information or information claiming the exact opposite of what they wanted us to think?

Ask George Lucas. Because let me tell you, it HAPPENS. A LOT. And some of it HAS been stricken from the record.
It's called extremely poor oversight. It happens. It's why in trying to form an overarcing theory explaining the facts, you discount outliers as outliers- especially when they've been stricken from the record.

I remember someone saying that if what the pinkers saying is true and the love triangle is really ambiguous ,then they should have recalled the 20th Anniversary Scenario Ultimania with the One That I Love in it... don't you think the same would have been done for Maiden? It was made under close supervision, don't you think Nomura or Nojima would have said, "Well no can you change this? Aerith doesn't love Cloud more than Zack..."

The page only concerned itself with displays in the original games. Vinny and Luccy, Freya and Fratley, Wakka and Lulu, Yang and Wife didn't get any mention because there was no 'confession incident' in the game. That's the thing that actually marks all the incidents talked about- it's people trying to tell other people of their love. And that's why it's so conclusive regarding the LTD- because C/T are mutual feelings, and just that there are multiple dates. So while there's confession incidents in them, they aren't important, and as we know, Cloud is at that point, oblivious to both women's affections. I figure he realizes Yuffies- and is suitably flattered and freaked out- and just looks at Barrett with even more confusion than he looks at Aerith.

I mean really now...[/QUOTE]

 

[Celes Chere]

AT LEAST RYU DOESN'T HAVE ROCKS FOR BRAINS.

J/k guys, you know I love you. XD

 

[Madame Mayor]

Quex, there's the fact that You've asked all this before in not so many words.

Also asking for the 'cloti' perspective from most of the people on this forum gets a bit insulting. If you want the opinion of shippers go ask them in their club. If you want the opinion of people who just want shippers to stop messing with the canon, then ask for that.

don't you think the same would have been done for Maiden? It was made under close supervision, don't you think Nomura or Nojima would have said, "Well no can you change this? Aerith doesn't love Cloud more than Zack..."

His own website stated something along the lines of it was his own interpretation of Aerith, I don't recall anything ever confirming that it was done under close supervision.

Also that line is cherry picked over and over and it's a bit silly. She says that right before she describes Zack, or at least, what she thinks Cloud is.

When Aerith met Cloud, she was older and wiser, and she knew more of what love was. That's why I feel what she feels for Cloud is stronger than what she felt for Zack.

I just don't see how you have any way to support that idea when SE has clearly stated that her actions were based on her feelings for Zack. If she was saying everything she said to Cloud based on real feelings for him, why would Zack be the explanation?

Even then when Aerith finally decides she's going to try to get to know the real Cloud, she dies. It's not like she suddenly decides she loves the real Cloud, she decides she's going to try to even understand who he really is and why he reminds her so much of Zack.

@ShuShu: I dislike when people come into any fandom and start throwing around the 'its a contradiction' rather than seeing what they don't want to. It appeared that's what you were doing, and still appears to. It's what the clerii do all the time. Rather than see that all the evidence makes sense together, they claim 'contradiction' all over the place so they don't have to admit that the way they original thought the story would end didn't happen.

That's not to say there aren't contradictions, but in this case there are a lot of people out there who really hate the idea that Aerith's love is Zack, and they jump all over quotes like the 'sudden crush' one as if a contradiction would even prove them right.

 

[Dashell]

Quex, there's the fact that You've asked all this before in not so many words.

And you've never really changed my mind with your answers.

Ask George Lucas. Because let me tell you, it HAPPENS. A LOT. And some of it HAS been stricken from the record.
It's called extremely poor oversight. It happens. It's why in trying to form an overarcing theory explaining the facts, you discount outliers as outliers- especially when they've been stricken from the record.

Maiden was never official stricken from the record like Last Order was IIRC. It just was not mentioned at all. Personally I don't use it in debates but I don't use the Dengeki profiles anymore either.

No it does not. The end of Goddamn CC shows just how goddamn serious about Aerith Zack was.

Yes, he loved her.. I've said this many o times. He also risked his life to save Cloud... he and Cloud were best friends, right? I'm saying the romantic love wasn't completely serious... but I'm sure he loved Aerith very much, even if that part of their relationship hadn't developed totally.

Does that make any sense at all?

The page only concerned itself with displays in the original games. Vinny and Luccy, Freya and Fratley, Wakka and Lulu, Yang and Wife didn't get any mention because there was no 'confession incident' in the game. That's the thing that actually marks all the incidents talked about- it's people trying to tell other people of their love. And that's why it's so conclusive regarding the LTD- because C/T are mutual feelings, and just that there are multiple dates. So while there's confession incidents in them, they aren't important, and as we know, Cloud is at that point, oblivious to both women's affections. I figure he realizes Yuffies- and is suitably flattered and freaked out- and just looks at Barrett with even more confusion than he looks at Aerith.

You missed my point. Why would Square recall the 20th Anniversary Scenario if it was incorrect but not recall Maiden?... is what my point is I believe. Cause someone said it... I don't remember who...

 

[Dashell]

Also asking for the 'cloti' perspective from most of the people on this forum gets a bit insulting. If you want the opinion of shippers go ask them in their club. If you want the opinion of people who just want shippers to stop messing with the canon, then ask for that.

Fair enough, I just don't go to the cloti board very often cause you guys are all here.

His own website stated something along the lines of it was his own interpretation of Aerith, I don't recall anything ever confirming that it was done under close supervision.

The information in the Ultimanias is done with close supervision. Why would they not do that with Maiden? It was in the Ultimania!

Also that line is cherry picked over and over and it's a bit silly. She says that right before she describes Zack, or at least, what she thinks Cloud is.

She says it several times in Maiden... not just once.

I just don't see how you have any way to support that idea when SE has clearly stated that her actions were based on her feelings for Zack. If she was saying everything she said to Cloud based on real feelings for him, why would Zack be the explanation?

Ugh, again I'm not saying she didn't love Cloud for Zack at first, but eventually she realized she was chasing him for Zack, she decided to get to know the real him.

 

[ShuShu]

AT LEAST RYU DOESN'T HAVE ROCKS FOR BRAINS.

Ryu is intense at debating lmao.

@ShuShu: I dislike when people come into any fandom and start throwing around the 'its a contradiction' rather than seeing what they don't want to. It appeared that's what you were doing, and still appears to. It's what the clerii do all the time. Rather than see that all the evidence makes sense together, they claim 'contradiction' all over the place so they don't have to admit that the way they original thought the story would end didn't happen.

See your misunderstanding me. Completely. Im not DENYING Zerith I'm bringing up something said in a debate forum. You THINK i'm trying to disprove Zerith which is not what I'm doing right now. Nor was it ever. What EXACTLY do I not want to see? If I'm not trying to disprove something?

I apologize for the sugarsticks comment but really. How many times do I have to clearly state something for it to stick?

 

[Madame Mayor]

She says it several times in Maiden... not just once.

It's not canon no matter what you want to say, if it ever was it isn't anymore. However...

Please refresh my memory then if you would. I recall her saying that before the lifestream event, she wakes up Zack with her thinking about him when she thinks she's thinking about Cloud. Then she sees the real Cloud, flirts with Zack a bit, and then entrusts Cloud and her feelings she had for him to Tifa.

Ugh, again I'm not saying she didn't love Cloud for Zack at first, but eventually she realized she was chasing him for Zack, she decided to get to know the real him.

Then she died. There's a section in this timeline where Aerith would have had to actually get to know the real Cloud, fall in love with him, and do this in a way that she loves him more than Zack. None of this happens, so how on earth does she skip all that and she's suddenly in love with him for the real him?

See your misunderstanding me. Completely.

I don't appear to be the only one.

Im not DENYING Zerith I'm bringing up something said in a debate forum. You THINK i'm trying to disprove Zerith which is not what I'm doing right now. Nor was it ever. What EXACTLY do I not want to see? If I'm not trying to disprove something?

You are jumping to contradiction and stating things like "Exposing contridictions by SE on Zack and Aerith's relationship" before you attempt to see how these things connect and work together. Perhaps it's how bold you were in implying that there was this major contradiction rather than asking your questions first and then deciding whether or not a contradiction had been made.

I apologize for the sugarsticks comment but really. How many times do I have to clearly state something for it to stick?

You aren't being clear, I think Tenny was the first one to point that out, and rather than make yourself clear you got defensive.

Also I accept your apology for implying I'm doing this out of some obsession over the pairing. Most people know here I ship one FFVII couple seriously and it certainly ain't Zerith. I merely dislike what I stated above to Que about shippers messing around with canon. It works both ways, in claiming couples are canon and claiming canon ones aren't.

 

[Isabella]

Ugh, again I'm not saying she didn't love Cloud for Zack at first, but eventually she realized she was chasing him for Zack, she decided to get to know the real him.

So you acknowledge she was still preoccupied with Zack?

Also, how did she go from "I wanna get to know this guy" to "OMG GREATEST LOVE OF ALL" (que Whitney) in the space of, what, a day?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Ever seen Hey Arnold? Arnold and Helga love each other, but they're just kids so their love hasn't fully developed yet...

Also what. I thought Arnold was generally annoyed by Helga's bullying but Helga was rockin' tsundere before many kids knew what that meant. I thought Arnold loved Ruth/random etc. girls in the series but I do not recall Arnold or Helga ever dating.